Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe

Spoudazo

Members
  • Posts

    32
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Spoudazo

  1. The gospel of Judas was not found until the 1970's. I also doubt Wierwille had any interest in researching more than he had to in order to support his theology. He did rely on his own take on the Pauline epistles fairly exclusively. That is a gnostic trait. He really didn't have to embrace the gnostic gospels to embrace some gnosticism. He made it up as he went along or with revelation from "father" and qualifying distinctions of what applied to us and what was for our learning.
  2. This is an excellent point GT and I appreciate you pointing this out. I should have been more specific and said the resurrection of Jesus Christ is unique to Christianity. Jesus being a historical person. For every point there is a counterpoint and with this topic it is no different. There is a good book by Nicholas Perrin, Lost in Translation, which deals with a few of these questions. There are many others who have written, with both sides making strong arguments for their position. Unlike my wife, I am not argumentative when it comes to Christianity, The Way or much else. It is up to the individual who has questions to look at what the opposing points are and make up their own mind. Further, Christians should not just close their eyes and pretend questions do not exist. I think taking serious time and diligence was actually my point. Maybe this topic will spark more questions and possible interest. These issues are important and distinctions between the myth of Horas and the life of jesus for example, make for interesting conversation. I wish I had more time for these forums. People formerly of The Way, not likeminded, talking through issues, and even disagreeing. That is something worthwhile.
  3. Hi, I was in The Way from 1974-1989. 14th Corps until I saw what it did to people. There is no Way blood left in me. I am a trinitarian far removed from all Way doctrine. I am a cessationist when it comes to SIT. I thought I drew a distinction between the 3 questions posed in the blurb I responded to, but maybe not clearly enough. I agree it is good to question the research methods of The Way and Wierwille. I said nothing about the nine manifestations or SIT because these are unique to what we learned in The Way. The resurrection is not. It is unique to Christianity. It is what draws the distinction between Christianity and other faiths. Without it you have a nice collection of wisdom literature. Which may be a point some are trying to make. I have not doubt someone could read all the books mentioned on the list and those refuting them. My question was in no way meant to be intimidating. It was meant to show that these are deep issues not to be taken lightly and convinced of quickly. For every point made in the discussion on the inerrant nature of scripture or the resurrection of Christ there is a counterpoint made. I would sincerely hope that people take the time to educate themselves, and not be swayed easily. There is a difference between questioning your entire faith and having questions about The Way. If someone is doing both I just hope they don't do it based on anything less than good scholarship and a well rounded argument.
  4. I normally steer clear of these discussions, careful to not discourage any questions that were suppressed in the first place. Nobody wants to hear that they were wrong and told years of their lives were wasted in smoke and mirrors. That is clear in your doctrinal forums. I read there and will post on occasion. What is it about an article written by another ex-cult member who obviously leans heavily on someone else's insight, Karen Armstrong, that has you questioning the very basis of your faith? The resurrection of Jesus. That is not a judgment it is a question. What are Penwork's qualifications in this area? Is He/she a bible scholar? How are you so easily swayed? Maybe you never believed it or understood it in the first place? Fine. If that is the case, wouldn't you go to the experts, like William Lane Craig who has for years studied the evidence for the resurrection and is a qualified and credentialed scholar? No, we have been taught to distrust them. In six weeks it could be someone else here and their opinion and will that make you question this? Wierwille trained us well. He trained us to follow people and their "new light." I am surprised that in 72 hours you can question the basis of your faith on the basis of a few people's opinons. Every author I read on that list is refuted by another scholar. Are you going to read them all? There is always Oprah, Eckhart Tolle, or Doctor Oz. Long after this crop of pop culture critics is gone the bible will still be here and Jesus will still have been raised from the dead.
  5. It has taken me some time to get back here. Yes, I did suggest rethinking Way theology. I thought most people here are doing that. I did not suggest anything to you I have not done myself. I am not sure who your father is or how I suggested he was eweeww bad. If you mean God, I explained that God is sovereign and holy. That is not a secret. From a biblical perspective grace is not what works for me or what works for you, and I am not sure I follow your logic. I think I will leave that to the more enlightened.
  6. We wonder why evangelicals get such a bad name? Could it be because they call things like food stamps for a mother with kids grave evil. It doesn't make God look so nice either. I wonder if Jesus made sure everyone had a job when he fed the 5000.
  7. Just to keep things straight this is not my interpretation, there is not a commentary I can find that does not use the same comparison. To clarify my post for you Watered Garden, and Cynic as well, let me try to set the stage. John chapter 10 takes place during the Feasts of Booths(Chapter 7:1 - 10:21). By this time, three attempts had been made on Jesus' life. Starting in chapter 5 these chapters are detailing the opposition to Jesus' claim of being the Son of God. Again, He is at a feast, the blind man was just healed ----the cast of characters present were the Pharisees, the Jews, and also His disciples. By the way, this is not a parable, John does not record the parables. This is a long uninterrupted speech of Jesus' which contains the figures of speech simile and comparison. We can agree that Jesus claims to be the "Good Shepherd" the questions we have is who is the theif, also called Robbers, Hirelings, and Strangers etc. etc. Jesus is addressing someone in the crowd. The scene is almost like a debate, remember in John 9 the Pharisees condemned Jesus for healing the blind man and on the sabbath as well. He then turned around and called them the truly blind. They are following Him around trying to kill Him, and dissuade His followers, constant challenges to His claims as the Son of God. Jesus begins the descriptions of who the theif is: * he does not enter by the door, but climb up some other way. * The true sheep will flee from him * When he sees the wolf coming he leaves the sheep and flees. This discourse is setting the stage for how Jesus is going to build His true church. He is now specifically dealing with those in the fold acting as false shepherds. He explains in detail the greatest threat to the sheep. The threat He is trying to protect them from is those within the fold who would use the sheep (Fleece them) and flee when the wolf(Devil) comes. These are those who steal hearts and affections from Jesus, who kill spiritually, destroy with damnable heresy. Much like VP Wierwille. He has got this cast of characters together-who is He speaking to? The Pharisees. These were the men who were entrusted to feed the flock. This was what they were suppose to be doing, yet they were trying to kill the Messiah and enslave the people to religion. The Pharisees had a conceit of knowledge and could not bear it to be questioned. These were who He was speaking to and about. The false teachers of the day. The Pharisees were using people for gain, while Jesus was explaining to them that He was going to die for the sheep. He claimed that there is only one door for the sheep and one Shepherd, and it wasn't them. He is talking about the total care the shepherd must have for the sheep against the backdrop of the Pharisees ruthless treatment of a blind man. They were also present with the woman caught in adultery, they didn't like the way the woman at the well spoke of Jesus, Nicodemus had to come by night, and so on. The OT is full of Good Shepherd, false Shepherd analogies. We lived it, so it should be much clearer for us. Matthew Henry's commentary can explain it far better than I can. Look at the cross references in your bible, that will be helpful. I tend to ramble. The understanding comes within the context. Even a cursory reading will shed some light on it. Consider it in light of your time in The Way. As for the toothbrush falling, I am not sure how to answer that. Psalm 139 might be helpful: 2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. 4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. 5You hem me in— behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain. 7Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. 11If I say, Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me, 12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. 13For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. 17How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum ofthem! 18 Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you. 19If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from me, you bloodthirsty men! 20 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name. 21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you? 22 I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies. 23Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting
  8. Why do you hold this belief? I am trying to follow your logic. You don't believe in a sovereign God? Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?" Not to be brash, but, you must seriously consider rethinking all Way theology. According to Way doctrine, God is sitting in heaven with Jesus at his right hand, both twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the gathering together. If we truly believe in the God of the bible, we must believe in a sovereign Lord. He is omnipotent, which means that nothing in the universe or your life can happen without God allowing it to happen. This means the sparrows falling to the ground, the hairs on your head growing or falling out, or earthquakes, famines, or 9/11. We can question why God allows anything to happen, but it is folly to have such a low opinion of God and a high opinion of our knowledge. Here is something to think about, God allowed the most traumatic event in human history to occur unimpeded. The crucifixion of His beloved Son. Yet, He used this for man's greatest gain, our salvation. You don't believe God foreordained this, that He used people to accomplish it? God does not give His power to anyone else. He would not then be an all powerful God. To equate a Christian life to some kind of cosmic chess game where God has to counter each move of Satan's pawns with a counter move, gives too much credit to Satan. God never lost control, He is in charge now, and has been since before creation. Psalm 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. God not only ordained David's life, He has ordained everything. The infinite mind of God compared to the limited mind of man. Ironically, the verse you used to give the devil way more credit than he is due is speaking specifically about false shepherds. I hope the irony is not lost on you. It is a direct correllation to Ezekiel 34. Funny how Wierwille opens the class with this because he is a prime example of a false shepherd, teaching you how your needs will be met(If you follow his teaching), while he is fleecing you. Ezekiel 34: 7 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.11 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. In John chapter 10 Jesus declares HIMSELF to be the good true shepherd in contrast to the false self-appointed shepherds. The steal, kill, and destroy is talking about leading people away with false teaching. Much like we learned in the Way about God not being in charge and ascribing power to the devil he just doesn't have. VPW, took the temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4, and used that to say that as the god of this world the devil ultimately controlled everything. Which is in direct opposition to the first verse in Matthew 4, " What does it say here? 1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." He was led by the Spirit. God led Him there to be tested." That steal, kill, and destroy doesn't mean Satan has the power to do whatever he wills, he is still in subjection to God. As is everything in creation. God ALLOWS things to happen, BUT, He uses them for HIS good. What does Joseph say in Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." As far as the according to the power which works in us? This must be taken in its direct context. Otherwise, if we were in charge of our salvation, or keeping it for that matter, we would be lost before breakfast. Who do you think is in charge of that? We never held a high understanding of God or His true authority in the Way, we always gave the devil way more deference and due. God is omnipotent not impotent.
  9. Hello, I hope you will enjoy this quote by Puritan John Owen. I believe it is topic related. "Let no man pretend to fear sin that does not fear temptation also! These two are too closely united to be separated. He does not truly hate the fruit who delights in the root." John Owen
  10. Hello, I have to agree with your statement that you "don't think God made it so difficult that only Greek and Hebrew scholars get to 'know'. " What I have found useful in the past is Matthew Henry's commentary. It can be a good source for ex-way. I am providing a link which I hope will be helpful. Well worth a look and a very handy reference tool. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc6.xii.ii.html
  11. Rereading my last post made me want to add this. It is easy to fall into leagalism. We did it in The Way. It would be a shame for us to continue on or fall back into this. You can't deal with sin by making rules on the outside about how we should act or think. If you don't get to the heart, this will never work. Legalism in the guise of thought reform, isn't strong enough to accomplish anything but bondage. Making rules and forcing yourself to conform to rules won't help. It will end up hurting you. Piety, Hiding away, Momentous, being a Pharisee, going to confession, ten hail Mary's five Our Father's won't do it. There isn't anything external that will handle sin on the inside. The Word of God and the Spirit of God are what we need. Please know, not the "Word" as taught in The Way. If I could encourage anything it would be to toss this in the garbage heap. 1st Peter 2:11, Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul. Abstain from fleshly lusts...the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, stop. Abstain. Not that it is a lifelong process. He says abstain! Romans 6 Sin no longer has dominion over you. You once were the slaves of sin, you're now become servants of righteousness. 1st Corinthians 6, Flee immorality, James, Resist the devil and he'll flee. Stop sinning, resist the devil. Make no provision for the flesh. Romans 13:14 Paul said Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lust. You can't accommodate it. This is where you look at what you consider in your mind. Stop thinking what makes you not like someone. Quit rehashing all the offenses that you think that person has commited against you, keeping a mental record of the wrong that they have done. Refuse to allow your mind the things that tempt your desires. Keep your heart on Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18 We all with unveiled face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord the Spirit." As we focus on the glory of the Lord, we're transformed to be more like Christ. You have to have your heart on Christ. You can't be focused on Christ and sin at the same time. 1 John 3: ---if you have that hope in you, then you purify yourself. Dwell on whatsoever things are pure. Let Him occupy your thoughts. Thy Word I have treasured in my heart, that I might not sin against you, Psalm 119. Meditate on it and do what is written. Joshua 1:8. It is a lamp unto our feet, a light to our path, it attacks sin. Jesus said Sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy Word is truth. Fill your heart with it and consider it carefully. Luke 22:40, Jesus said, Pray that you may not enter into temptation. Lead us not into temptation. Order the steps of my life. Keep back Thy servant from presumptuous sins. Ask yourself what is really in your heart. Is it Jesus? It can be things that look like Him, but is it really Him. Love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control. Desire self-control. Be filled with the Spirit. Ephesians 5 Do not be drunk with wine, that's dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit. If you want God, be filled with the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. What are you living for? What is in your heart? Fill it with the right thing to fend off temptation when it comes and ask God daily to help you with temptation.
  12. It is not as much the issue of what comes at our minds, in my opinion, but of what comes from inside of us. We are sinful, which is why we need a Savior. Self-examination of one's faith and heart requires a painful honesty and humbleness before the Lord. Are you Christ's? What is your faith really about? What are you filled with? Have you come before Him with a heart of penitence, contrition and asked Him for purification? 2 Corinthians 7:1 says : Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. James says: "Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust." The devil doesn't make us do things. We are carried away by what is our own lusts. The problem is inside of us. The devil produces things that do TEMPT us through the things of the world. But, that is not the real problem. It says we are tempted when carried away and enticed by our own lust. When lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin. When sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Reliving past sin as pleasure, scheming new sin as pleasure, all are matters of what is in your heart. Fill it with something better. I would say the "Word" but that is going to mean something different to each of us as we have come from very unsound teaching. Simply go to the Lord and ask Him to help you understand your temptations. We are not alone with the bible as our only guide. In fact, without God, the words and meaning become all twisted and useless. We have a Savior, a personal God who is in this with us. He purifies us and transforms us. Deal with the depths of your heart. We do this often, it is not just a one time thing. It is an event though, not a process. We do not do this on our own or with the bible alone. Jesus is a personal Savior. I would encourage us not to again lose that simplicity in Christ.
  13. Thank you for pointing out the disadvantage of my broad brushstroke answer also thank you for telling me what I should not lose sight of as you know me so well. I have rarely posted here, yet somehow you feel the need to remind me of my Christian duty. Again, you might as well be listening to Coast to Coast or in an Amway seminar as attending one of these churches. That is my opinion.
  14. Exactly! Mark Clarke, I was speaking of Adventist and Sabbatarian churches. A broad brush stroke. I hope this clears it up for you. Thanks for your concern.
  15. For all of VP's slogans about the word, he in no way was a true "bible believer"- his immoral lifestyle is evidence of that. I think many people claim to be commited to the Bible only, but in far too many cases, they are only commited to a man's theology. Our commitment is to Jesus Christ. What is different for me, is the reality of what God is saying thru dozens of different writers over a 1500 year period, authors living on different continents, writing in several languages about the promise of what man truly needs- a redeemer. Jesus. In my opinion if anything other than Jesus Christ being the only rule for faith and practice is taught, it is another gospel or doctrines of demons . Once something such as Administrations or Kingdom theology or Numerology or Purpose Driven whatever is considered the glue that holds it all together, you now have something other than the gospel. You might as well be listening to Coast to Coast. It is just words. Maybe this is why God had to silence Peter and shout from heaven "THIS is my beloved Son hear ye Him" Going on building more tabernacles or offshoots or supposed ministries is not what He intended. Christianity is Christ centered. It is a relationship with the living God. Not with the book about Him. That is not to say the scriptures are not authoritative, they are, but our relationship is with the person of Jesus. How He evaluates each believer is what matters. I see no other choice, but depart from me I never knew you, or enter into the joy of the Lord. It has to be possible to know Him and to be known by Him. That involves something much deeper than reading words on a page or doing a word study. Even working the "Greek." Why would anyone settle for head knowledge or intellectual assent when day to day life can be lived in His presence, guided by Him, and given to Him in service. Fellowship with the living God in a deeply personal way. There is nothing hidden from His eyes, yet we stand before Him in love. Giving ourselves over to Him and His Lordship and transforming work. That is the biblical reality of the abundant life. Rooted and built up in Him as the truth is in Jesus. To sum up: What is different for me now is no longer the bible, the bible, the bible, although I love and search it, it is about the word made flesh. Jesus, that is my first love.
  16. Not to make this a topic about dispensations, but from H. A Ironside, a strong believer in dispensationalism writing about ultra dispensationalism. . . which is what I think TWI practiced and how VP justified alot of evil things. “no hesitancy in saying that its fruits are evil. It has produced a tremendous crop of heresies throughout the length and breadth of this and other lands; it has divided Christians and wrecked churches and assemblies without number; it has lifted up its votaries in intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent, so that they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views; and in most instances where it has been long tolerated, it has absolutely throttled Gospel effort at home and sown discord on missionary fields abroad. So true are these things of this system that I have no hesitancy in saying it is an absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth.” "Other heresies that are common to some types of ultra-dispensationalism include such things as soul sleep and annihilationism. Still others proclaim a brand of universalism that grants salvation even to Satan himself. Without a doubt whatever name you want to call it, ultra-dispensationalism is a dangerous error that almost always leads to other even worse errors and often outright heretical teachings." http://www.gotquestions.org/ultra-dispensationalism.html
  17. I have to jump in here, even though I rarely post. I am constantly amazed by what can only be termed "bible worship"- we talk all day long and show off how much scripture we can quote and how much of the "class we remember, yet very little talk of our worship or love of the Savior who alone is only worthy of such accolades. Don't get me wrong- I fell for it for many years while in TWI, and it took probably almost as many years of being out before I realized my error of my ways, so please accept this as coming from someone who all too well was living with the same mindset Point#1- Psalm 138 2 was not God's commnd for us to magnify the Bible above God- like many Psalms, this directly dates to a specific period in David's life- 2Samuel 7 when God promised him an everlasting covenant with a descendant that would perfectly fulfil God's plan- a Redeemer- David in response cried I will magnify your word- your promise- your covenant above everything I have ever known about you.- Finally a Savior for the world- what could be more fantastic. Point 2- Jn 5:39 Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees for their supposed great knowledge of the Bible and corrects them by saying"You search the Scriptures, yet they are they which testify of ME"- I am right in front of your eyes, and you can't see it- Even though the works I am doing were written where you are supposedly reading and have become such great masters of keys to Biblical interpretation Point 3- Revelation 3 warns the Church of Ephesus of one specific sin- not that they neglected the word, or weren't walking in love , but thay left their FIRST love- Jesus himself. All the cold theology in the world no matter how "rightly divided" you think it is , does not make up for a rejection of the One who called you and saved you while you were dead in your sins. Maybe that's why 1Timothy 3:16 says it is such a great mystery- even though He was manifest in the flesh...etc., etc I just want to sy that I still search the Scriptures daily, but am so thankful that I now see the POINT of it all- not paper and ink, but a Savior who is expressed from cover to cover. Now when I read, I know what I am looking for- not somemore new or additional theology but, the reason why he Bible was penned in the first place--"To know Him- to be found in Him- to be pleasing to Him" The bible is written for us. . . to keep our worship straight. . . Jesus is the word.
  18. Hi Kimberly, This is addressed to all of your posts on this thread. I find your perspective interesting. I also think it is limited. I see that as a problem with the Church today. God is not as simplistic as we are. Our understanding of Him in relation to good and evil must not be simplistic or frivolous. How can such a view explain the massive suffering and the pain felt by so many people in this world? Is it just ex-way and current way and a few stumbling church goers that can effect their own destiny by rightly believing? Is God that cold and immune to the suffering of those who don't see this way? We are not naive about pain and suffering. I am sure you have had your share. To say that God does not orchestrate or ordain things runs contrary to scriptures. Daniel 2:20 and declared:May the name of God be praised forever and ever, for wisdom and power belong to Him.21 He changes the times and seasons He removes kings and establishes kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding. Proverbs 21:20 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will. 1Peter3:17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil. If we look closely enough at scripture we see that God's hand is sovereign over even satan-life-death. Look at Job or Peter when he was sifted. Who did Satan approach for permission? We can have confidence that God is able to use suffering for good. Not that He would ever tempt us, but will use our pain and suffering to refine and perfect us. The bible tells us to be patient during this time. I agree that God is not punitive, but the bible does tell us He chastens those He loves. As for Him treating us no different than Christ? Jesus never sinned. He was perfect and yet God sacrificed Him for us while we were yet sinners. Here we must get into who Christ really is, I will pass on that debate. Jesus said John 10:18 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” I wonder what you do with a verse like this Deuteronomy 32:39 39 “ ‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Jesus quoted most from Deuteronomy. 1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that. As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. It is a bit more complex than an ineffectual God who is impotent and a bystander. He is sovereign as scripture tells us He is. His hand and face are not open and obvious, we have to seek Him out. Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.” In all this Job never charged God with wrong, but knew God to be sovereign. People don't blame God Kimberly. They despise Satan and know his evil and look right past him to God and His hand and then His mercy. That is where the security lies. In the sovereign power of God to allow our trials for a time, and to use them for good. What comfort is there in Satan's ability to freely destroy and our own ability to "believe?" I would just say that if anyone's knowledge of God is based on what we learned in the Way, it might be time to expand our horizons. Just a hope. We don't blame God we praise Him. His ways are not our ways. His wisdom is beyond ours. That is why we have faith in Him even in our darkest times. He knows best. How can we have faith in Him when the walls come down and we think we or satan are in complete control?
  19. Ironically for a group claiming Christianity, the Way missed the boat on how the church often defines truth. Truth is not a "what" but a "who" in many or most Christian circles. The Way's focus was on "The Word" and not Jesus Christ as truth. We were able to define truth anyway we wanted. It is really helpful when he "who" is truth is absent, and we take his place. I think that is how we developed "Way Brain". Instead of worshiping a "Who" we worshiped a "What". Good old fashioned idolatry I guess. A worship of our own crazy theology. With that thought pattern firmly in place we were open to all kind of control and abuses. I think it just depended how warped you were to begin with and how high up the tree you fell as to how you twisted and used it. We had our own verbiage to go with our "Way Brain". Our language refected our conditioned thought process. I still avoid certain sentences. I never ask "What's available?" Understanding truth as a "who" and the "what" as a means to know the "who" helped me. I didn't have to keep up with the latest "present" convenient insight. Truth remains constant when it is objective. As long as the object is a who. In my humble opinion, the thing people preach the loudest and longest about they are the most guilty of in their own life. That seems to be what we did with the "Word" the "Word" and nothing but the "Word". Lockbox, present truth, every third person "possessed" needs&wants, Bless Patrol, advances instead of retreats, no wishing "Luck", "Believing images of Victory", "Absent Christ" Homo purge etc all seem to be uniquely "Way brain" IMHO Can you imagine an everyday Christian at a ROA without an interpreter?
  20. Waysider, Well done and I thank you. That said it all for me.
  21. I am not following. Are you saying there are churches built on the idea that Jesus is no good? Even the Way was not that bad. Absent yes-NO GOOD- no. I guess there could be. You can find a church for anything if you look hard enough. Could be a church built on "The rings and nose jewels" for all we know. Did you have a point? I missed it.
  22. I know this was addressed to "Mark" but it is a great observation. Their "truth" seemed useless in preventing them from hurting people. Smart insight. Sums it up for me. I think the difference you see in churches is the "brand" of Christianity they practice. It is an objective faith. Jesus being the object. Less emphasis is placed on knowing all "truth" as a theological sport. More is placed on worship of the truth. Many Christian churches believe Jesus when he says "I am the way the truth. . . " The focus is on him as the only truth. The ultimate goal is knowledge of him. It is not a blood sport. In Christianity truth is a who. . . not a what. Christians who don't have a "Branch Leader" seek to please Jesus. Why would anyone spend good money on an education that is not useful to further a career anywhere? We are still paying for my wife's education. School cost big bucks these days.
  23. cman- I wish I really knew where you were coming from. From what I can gather, you like the Bible. But do you base your entire worldview on it? Can you honestly say your belief in God, ultimate reality, knowledge, ethics and human nature is based on it? Your questions about what makes the difference in becoming a Christian I hope is an honest one. If I can pick up on geisha's post , let me add the following: The irony lies in that a true Christian recognizes first and foremost that he NEEDS a Savior. A non Christian has no such desire. Yet it is the work of the Holy Spirit that convicts, or in reality, CONVINCES a person they are in need. You don't really get it unless you admit you don't have it A Christian can also be recognized by the characeristics in Matthew 5- a broken spirt, true hunger and a repentant heart. If you are looking for a more moral lifestyle, you may find pagans with that. It is no secret that the Christian divorce rate is just as bad as non-Christian. There is no phone booth we can step into and change into our Super-Christian outfit, instead the world should recognize us as people who readily admit they sin, need God's grace, goodness and favor in their lives, but there must be an outward reflection of Jesus in day to day living, or it is not genuine. He is the only one able to really transform us. May I add that a true Chrisian has a hunger for the knowledge of God- they feed on His Word, because everyday they are seeing they are not better than anyone else- in fact, just the opposite- they see their need for Him to save them You are right, people can change their habits and act nicer, but the saving work of Christ is from the inside out- The admission of Paul- I know that in my flesh dwelleth no good thing God perfects, we cannot perfect ourselves. We are a truly needy people I think we can admit that we spend our lives trying and trying to act good enough for God to like us, but He saved us while we were yet His enemies.
  24. Took me a bit to find it. "I’ve had Mormons in particular write to me and tell me that their “testimony is strong” and if I choose to answer their very passionate e-mails, I won’t be able to persuade them that the Mormon Church isn’t the only “true” church on earth. I write back telling them that I hope and pray they will lose that testimony because regardless of how strongly they feel, if they don’t know Jesus, then they have nothing. If they don’t know the TRUE Jesus of the Bible, the ONLY Jesus who can save them, if they only know the Jesus of the Jehovah’s Witnesses or The Way International or Mormonism or of Farakahan – then they don’t know Jesus. If they don’t know Jesus, no matter how lovely or wonderful they believe their organization is, they are lost, and if they take their final breath believing in their organization’s version of Jesus instead of having the true Jesus in their heart, they’ll die lost. I don’t wish this for anyone, and most importantly, Jesus doesn’t wish this for a single soul, because he died for ALL, and wants everyone to come to Him " If that is what you are talking about? I agree wholeheartedly with the above statement. 2 Corinthians 11:3 You do realize we were in a cult?
×
×
  • Create New...