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Abigail

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Posts posted by Abigail

  1. also, when i got on the coach with the cockroach geer and the slimy man of god, i am not sure what happened

    i know i was drinking with veepee at a little table and the next thing i remember is seeing myself -- like i was floating on the ceiling -- and looking down at him and he was on top of me -- and we were in the back -- on his bed -- puke

    i've always said it was like an out of body experience, but i don't know if it was because of drugs or because i went mentally bonkers -- not sure

    i am sure about the next morning before arriving at new knoxville. somehow i had gotten over on the side of one of those pull-out little beds -- and he came over and stuck his (barf) in my face. i played possum

    it was so awful

    i should definitely point out there were quite a few "counseling" sessions before this when i talked to him about being sexually abused as a child -- he did say i needed to be loved the way god intended -- by a real man of god -- but i would book -- get out of there quick -- told him i could not handle it

    man, that dark long lonely drive -- i also remember looking into these dead eyeballs (2) on top of me

    what a friggin jerk

    ExC, I love the courage you have to speak out and say it all. Some day I hope to have that kind of courage.

  2. Points well taken......thanks.

    Yes, my boundaries were moved.....as were others. I see your point and agree. It is about vulnerability.

    Thanks Skyrider. I sort of assumed you didn't fully understand what you were implying when you said those things. I pointed them out to you, because overall you seem a decent enough guy. Typically, I don't waste much time arguing with people like Johniam, because he either can't get it or refuses to. But I thought you would get it.

  3. As for VP, he's dead! Nobody is saying the Catholic church should be destroyed because of all their abuses and nobody should; they do a lot of good around the world. God will sort it all out eventually, but today is man's judgement. If someone decides they want to be Catholic, even if they know about the abuses, then that's their choice. End of discussion.

    Well I would suspect somewhere in the great wide internet there are people who are saying the Catholic Church should be shut down. But this particular website isn't centered around the Catholic church, its centered around TWI.

    Yes, VP is dead, but his legacy lives on in the doctrine he taught. He was not the only sexual predator in TWI. There were many of them, more than you will hear about here. The doctrine itself was rotten when it comes to this issue. Where were the teachings on how husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church? Where were the teachings on adultry? Where were the teachings on rape? (yes there are verses on that subject in the Bible). There were certainly plenty of teachings on how women needed to submit. There were even teachings about how when you are married your body is no longer your own and that it is the wife's job to meet her husband's need. But how are husband's to love their wives? TWI was pretty silent on that issue.

    The issues isn't just what VPW did. The issue is the rottenness of the doctrine. Yes, there may have been some good doctrine in the mix that is worth hanging onto. But there was also some really, really bad garbage in that mix.

  4. I sometimes find myself in the awkward position of making excuses for God's basic impotence. I just want to scream, "Speak up, Dude!"

    I think the world would benefit geometrically with just a little active and unambiguous involvement from its creator. That's something even a mediocre father would do for his children, at least on occasion. Is that not something most people on the planet long for and would welcome? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    So yes, I sometimes get mad at God. But then I remember I'm mostly agnostic these days (or maybe a type of socks 'Chaos Christian'), open a beer and I'm good to go.

    -JJ

    Amen, JJ. :D That sums it up pretty darned well in a nutshell.

  5. I believe there are several reasons why many of us didn't see the red flags. For one thing, a sexual predator targets a selected individual(s) on a basis of many factors.......proximity, promiscuous nature, availability, opportunity, etc. My wife was around wierwille during the early 70s as well, yet she never saw any advances, or groping, or heard about sexual predation from wierwille. Perhaps, high morals and character have much to do with setting proper boundaries, no?

    Skyrider, perhaps without even realizing it, you just put the blame squarely back on the victim. Promiscuous nature? Really??? Do you think those boys who were victimized by the Penn State guy were sexually promiscuous? Was Excathedra? Was I? Were the other victims? And even if a victim had been sexually promiscuous, does that negate the right to pick and choose their partners? Does it void their right to say no and have that respected? And did you know, that often women who are sexually promiscuous are that way because they had already been victimized before adulthood??

    And then you toss in high morals and character as being a reason someone isn't targeted. Again, I would suggest you think about that statement for a minute and understand just what you are suggesting. Because what you are suggesting is that people who are targetted by sexual predators lack high moral character. Bull..... The viticms didn't lack moral character, the predators did!!!

    Lets move on to boundaries. You think you wife with her high moral character didn't have her boundaries moved? Was she in TWI? Did she stay in TWI for any length of time? You did yes? You climbed the ladder higher than I did. I can guarantee you anyone who lasted in TWI, anyone who made it through the Way Corps training or worked at HQ for any significant length of time had their boudnaries moved. Their sexual boundaries may have remained intact, but there were boundaries that were moved and at least some of those boundaries speak to moral character.

    Those who melted someone else's face because of the mandates of TWI either had no moral character to begin with, or their boundaries were moved over time. Those who lived and breathed the words of Martindale or VPW either had no moral character to begin with, or their boundaries were moved over time.

    Sexual predators do target specific people. They look for weaknesses and vulnerabilities that they can twist and turn and use against the victim. What those weaknesses and vulnerabilities are vary from predator to predator and victim to victim. But it is not about moral character or promiscuity. It is about vulnerability. You think you are invulnerable? You think your wife is? We all have weaknesses. We all have areas in our life that are vulnerable.

  6. Not sure that "getting mad" is quite the right response. But asking "WHY?" certainly is.

    It doesn't matter if getting mad is appropriate, or even right. As Socks says, it is what it is. Am I to pretend I don't feel the way I do because it may not be right? I can't, that would be a sin against myself, it would be dishonest within myself.

    Asking why. Yes, I do ask why. I desperately want to know why. I guess on some level, this is all a crisis of faith. That I believe there is a God remains true. That I trust that God, that is the crisis of faith perhaps.

    When I was a girl, I was not raised with any particular regious beliefs. Despite that, I had this unwavering faith that God looked after me and would keep me safe. Then He didn't. Following that, I spent a number of years living in a very self-destructive manner until I was finally brought to me knees and I begged God to show me the way.

    I ended up IN The Way. There we were taught the formula for how to get and maintain God's hedge of protection around us. And I bought it. I bought into it and I found myself married to a man that hurt me in every way possible - physically, sexually, emotionally.

    I left. I got of of The Way and out of the marriage. I built a new life once again. But here I am, all of these years later and that childhood event has come back, demanding that I face it, deal with it, and somehow make peace with what happened and how it effected my life. I have moments these days, when I feel like God is once again trying to bring me to my knees. Once again trying to push me to that place where I come back to Him on my knees and begging.

    My response? No. I won't do it again. I won't put my trust there again and have my life torn apart the way it has been over and over. But I would like to. I would like to trust that God is there, looking after me and protecting me. But, I don't trust Him.

    I blame God for everything, even the "devil".

    Not understanding why things are the way they are,

    or why some things happen, is more my case.

    Sometimes mad, and maybe disappointed with myself at times.

    And sometimes I want to look closer and sometimes I don't want to look,

    at why, what and reasons, or whatever factors that can be seen.

    Hi! Good to see you here. Yes, even the devil, if he exists, was created by God, with God's foreknowledge yes? So ultimately, if the glory goes to God, why wouldn't the blame as well? Why is it that God is supposed to get all of the credit and we are supposed to take all of the blame upon ourselves - or shift it to the devil, if such a creature exists??

    I totally get not wanting to look. I have avoided looking for many, many years. But it seems now it is time to face it and look, that it won't be ignored any longer.

  7. I think it is in the definition of who God is. Is God all-loving..... Well if he was all loving then what about Justice and Holiness? I would say God is Love but he is not all-loving. Justice must take place but his love prevents him to execute it before the appointed time. Where we all would fail. One of my favorite teachers Dr. Ravi Zacherias says that Christianity is the only religion where love and Justice meet and that is at the cross. If God was just a just God then no Cross needed. If God was only loving then just forgiving and God not needing payment for sin. I would say God is a Holy God.

    Hi Naten, nice to meet you. I have to tell you up front, I am not Christian. The only time I ever applied that label to myself was during my years with TWI. I do appreciate your input into this thread, however. Ultimtately, I don't think the labels matter so much. But I say that, because I don't believe Christianity is the only religion where love and justice meet. Just my opinon. :)

    I was speaking with someone who is now in a splinter group from TWI (I have never been in the way with wife was and her family is). He was appauled that I believed that God would cause harm in order for the good. I asked him about when Jesus in John 9 healed the blind man from whose blind from birth. Jesus said he was blind his whole life for the purpose of being healed. He asked me do I really think God would cause someone to be blind in order for him to be glorified. I said It dose not matter what I think that is what it says. I can accept it or not. Someone could say in this verse God allowed it to happen but you still end up with God being so powerful him allowing it for the purpose of His glory is as if he did it.

    On some level I get that. I have heard similar teachings. I do have a somewhat fundamental problem with the concept that God would allow something bad to happen to someone for his own glory. I think there are other reasons and explanations, although I would freely admit I don't know what they are.

    What is for my Good? What brings me to the full knowledge of the Truth? Is it really prosperity or is it going through life with all the struggles that come with it and have Jesus fulfill his claim at the end of Matthew "low I will be with you even to the very end of the age".

    Honestly I used to be angry at God until I read this verse Ps 115:3 "God is in heaven and he does whatever pleases him". It isn't about me and no amount of believing will correct that. God will do what He will. Unless the bible is false and the creator created me to worship me but that makes no since. It is funny we demand our own creations to worship and glorify us but get angry at God when he demands it out of us. I notice that in myself. In some way I don't think he even demands it. It is just intrinsic to who God is. It won't be should I or will I. It just will happen when we see Him in His total Glory.

    Define believing? Do you mean that in the sense that TWI teaches? I don't believe in TWI's version of believing anymore. I believe in faith. But sometimes life throughs curveballs that make faith difficult as well. Yes, God may very well do what He will. I then must choose how I want to embrace God. Or reject him and search for another? If God is the one who is responsible for it in the first place. Another question within a question - what is God responsible for and what is man responsible for. If someone does something evil to someone else, the man who acted badly is responsible. But, why did God not protect the someone else? And maybe that is yet another question within the question? Does God protect us? Ever? Sometimes? Only occassionally?

    Lastly Jesus promised a hard life. Even telling the "rock" Peter that he will have die a painful death in order to glorify God and then says follow me?...sign me up!.... He even said that the rain will fall on the just and unjust alike.... What type of fair is that? Horrible things have happened through abuse and horrible hate in my life but its His walk with me that keeps me going. Through fearing the holy character who He is it do I find undying love and peace.....Now I understand in Proverbs it says the fear of the Lord leads to life and those who have it rest satisfied.

  8. Good question kiddo.

    I have what I call "conversations" in that regard. I guess it's become more or less second nature to me at this point where I accept that some things are in my domain and some are not and understanding the difference is where the discussion occurs so to speak. But I don't feel anger - anger over the fact that life is what it is sometimes but I don't feel a conflict with God that would lead to anger. I have at times though and don't feel bad about it at all - none of this creation or life was my idea so I don't feel bad that I don't get it all the time. If I need to square up in my heart with God, I do. It can take time sometimes.

    Hi Socks! It would seem, for some things, it can take a very long time to square that up. I don't feel guilty when I get mad at God - I feel what I feel so that part is okay. But at some point, for some things, forgiveness and moving on has to come into play too. A way to be done being angry with God over things. Perhaps that is yet another subtopic in here. :)

    A lot of religious thought posits that God is sovereign, over everything, controls everything and that everything is part of God's "plan". So when something happens, good or bad, it's credited to "God" who has a "plan" and that there's a purpose related to God in whatever happens. (Or the "Devil" who may affect or intervene. And that man is in the middle more or less, managing and dealing with opposing forces.)

    I believe this is inferred in the Bible but in metaphor - giving God credit and standing, "glory", supremacy. But not that God is actually managing everything as a person would, everything all at once.

    I see it as God being God and by definition is of course sovereign over all. But that creation is not being controlled atom by atom, everything all the time, by a God who is making decisions about everything.

    That sort of goes to something I was putting together in my thoughts today about the chaos theory and quantum mechanics. Chaos being the little bump or change that has a ripple effect and quantum mechanics being the multitude of possible outcomes. So, perhaps from time to time God gives us a little push or a shove and then it is up to us to pick among the multitude of possible outcomes. That is how there is a Supreme being and free will at the same time?

    Like the 'earth' - "be fruitful and multiply" and tend to the planet - It's God's "creation". It's man's domain to work in and live.

    As a result I don't get mad at God all that much. The urge to cry out in celebration or complaint about life is human though and I probably do some of both.

    Way teaching leads a person to think that God is in neutral (although He has a "will" or logos) and we "operate" His "god given power" to us when we choose to. That will cause a person to be frustrated because everything, lots of things in fact I would suggest MOST things we do based on that kind of thinking are simply not going to happen that way - we'll always be trying harder, again, over and over, blaming someone or something and rounding up or down to make the results we do see fit what we're trying to "do" and how we think it should happen. That'll definitely pi ss someone off, sooner or later.

    I've labelled myself a "Chaos Christian" before, by the way. I believe humanity's relationship within itself and with God is so diverse and varigated that it's useless to try and grasp it into some form of repeatable order that can be understood and captured by some dictum of man's faith. "Spiritual serendipity" - live the best I can with the best I know, keep learning and observing life as it's underway.

  9. We’re all going to live each moment, each minute, each hour, each day. We can live it enjoying it, or live it as if it were a burden. As we’re going to live it anyway, what will be our attitude of mind? That’s going to affect a lot of our attitude towards God, a “higher power,” randomness or whatever else we hang our hats on.

    Is it a choice that we make each day, really? We can control how we behave, but do we really have control over our emotions - other than suppressing them into non-existance like we did in TWI?

    Hmmmm - okay, let me take another tact. We know there were women who were sexually abused in TWI. The women came to TWI because they absolutely wanted to know God. They were searching for God and they were beaten or sexually abused instead. How does one reconcile that without at some point becoming at least a little bit ticked off at God??

    Interestingly, I say "thank God" all the time. And when things are tough I do pray. But I'm not convinced that all my prayers don't amount to much more than me talking to myself.

    Soul Searcher, I often think prayer is more for us than for God. Even if one believes in God differently than you do - if God is all knowing and knows the thoughts of our hearts, He knows our prayers before we do. Prayer is to bring us to a place of peace, it isn't for God's benefit. That's what I think anyway. :)

  10. I may be derailing my own thread. But perhaps this will help explain my questions. I do believe science and religion can mix. I sort of see quantum mechanics as the spiritual side of things and the chaos theory and the physical world we live in.

    We are now nearing the end of the Days of Awe and I have really been trying to work my way through some stuff from my past, the specifics of which I do not care to go into. So here is a bit of what I have been reading, that jumpted out at me.

    Human consciousness plays a major role in determining reality. There are even respectable scientists who state categorically that things happen because we observe them to happen This is Schrodenginer's Cat. I think there is some validity to it, but I don't buy it as an across the board end all truth.

    Those who work in the field of chaos theory and complex systems point out that a small change in a single atom can ripple through the cosmos, effecting major impact on the macrocosm This is how I see human interaction. As we interact with one another we have an effect on the person and that creates a ripple effect. Someone described it to me as a pool table with no holes for the balls. You use the cue ball and hit another ball and it rolls into maybe 3 or 4 more, etc. Human interaction is the same.

    Furthermore, this Supreme Consciousness is not to be viewed as some outside force who happened to come across a universe and decided to muck about with it. Rather, that Consciousness is the perpetual origin of all that is. At every moment, all matter and energy is regenerated into being out of the void . . . . . . .So He created a paradox. That's what creating a world out of nothing is all about -- doing the impossible. Creating a world means creating a second reality: The first reality is that there is nothing else but Him. The second reality is that there is a world here that He is sustaining. Both realities are true. In Chabad Chassidut, these two realities are called Daat Elyon and Daat Tachton, literally, the Higher Consciousness and the Lower Consciousness.

    At every point in a person's life, s/he will find him/herself exactly at the spot G-d desires this little creature should be at this time. Make whatever choice you want, it doesn't change the ultimate outcome. It only changes one thing: Who's responsible for the outcome? Is this mess all your fault, that you should have to clean it up? Or are you the hero who contained the damage from extending further? Whose side are you on and how hard are you fighting? When we get there, will it be through your efforts, or despite them? Will we have to drag you there, or will you come marching in the front line? You'll go through the circuit, but will you make the best out of each ride, milking every experience for all its got? Will you overcome the darkness in a fell swoop of the sword, or will you roll with it in the dust, fighting it until its very essence is annihilated?

    And this is the part that always leaves me banging my head against the wall and being really ....ed off at God. Because if that is true, then everything that happened was what God wanted to have happen. It is another paradox, God is supposed to always get the glory, but mankind is stuck with the blame and responsibility??? How exactly does that work? :)

  11. Of course I was never in TWI but...

    I don't believe there is a loving god. Certainly not a god who demands to be glorified.

    I do believe there is a higher being -- whatever being or entity or force that makes a sperm cell swim up a fallopian tube and fertilize an egg (for example). That's the god I believe in and there's nothing "loving" about it.

    Soulsearcher, if the God you believe in is not loving, how do you keep from falling into depression and despair? What gives you hope?

  12. Okay, I'm with you Waysider. I also believe in God, but do not believe in the Devil. So, lets go with randomness and stuff happens and this brings me full circle to the whole anger at God thing. Why would an all loving God allow random acts of tragedy to occur? Why would God fail to protect someone who believes in Him and believes He will keep them safe?

    Oh and Waysider, I'm not talking about protecting someone from TWI. At some point we all drank that Koolaid for various reasons. I'm talking literally about a sudden and unexpected event that could not have been forseen or prevented.

  13. In TWI we were taught never to blame God. We were taught all bad things come about because of the devil. We were taught that ultimately, most of the bad things that happen in life happen because we were somehow "off the Word" or "out of fellowship" and had "stepped outside God's hedge of protection."

    In the OT, there were men and women who got angry with God and who even argued with God. Do you ever get mad at God? How do you understand the bad things that have happened in your life now that you are outside TWI?

  14. Yes, why they continue to hold him in high esteem is really a whole 'nother ball of ear wax.

    Sorta, kinda reminds me of a woman who is subjected to extreme physical abuse by her husband but still, not only stays with him, but defends him.

    "Sure, he beat the livin' daylights out of me for the umteenth time again, but he's really a gentle soul, deep down inside."....Huh???

    That's not why the stay. They stay out of fear and low self esteem. Hmmmm, yet another parallel, no?

  15. Waysider said: There are lots of incidents of psychological abuse, sexual abuse, violence and, yes, even murder, that were simply never reported to the general populace of The Way. Many of them were brought to the attention of upper management at The Way. (Alaska and Alabama seem to ring a bell for me.) In some cases, The Way chose to resolve the problem by relocating the individual to another area where their indiscretions would not be known. In some of the others, the perpetrators were tried and convicted. Part of the purpose of this site is to expose those incidents, not sweep them under the carpet like The Way did. I encourage anyone to search these pages for more detailed information. It's here if you really want to find it.

    Far more incidents than have ever been discussed here, I am sure. Part of the problem was leadership who wanted to sweep things under the rug, lest "the ministry be blamed." Another problem were leaders who were in over their heads and simlply had no idea how to handle such difficult situations, in conjunction with the ministry line that you didn't seek outside/wordly counsel.

    What I went through at the hands of my ex . . . it wasn't a secret. People knew. I remember when it first started and I went to my twig coordators - people I loved and trusted and to this day still believe were genuine, well-intentioned people. I honestly believe they wanted to do right, but were in way over their heads (pun intended).

    Unfortunately, what they said, the counsel they gave made everything worse. It amounted to putting the blame on me, something I was all too willing to accept -because that is what women who are abused do. They blame themselves. And then they blamed me too. The whole thing made me feel crazy. I have no way to describe it to someone who has never experienced it and I am so thankful that there is a place (here) where there are women who do get it. I'm not happy that they experienced anything aking to what I did, but I am relieved to know there are people who understand.

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  16. maybe it depends on the humans, in the interaction..

    :biglaugh:

    I'm not sure exactly what you are asking in this thread, my squirrely friend. But this I do believe, it absolute does depend on the humans in the interaction. When I look at my life frmo the perspectve I have now, it isn't so much what I have done, but who did I share the experience with. That is what makes all the difference in the world.

    I have also realized that post TWI, finding people I am comfortable enough with - that I can trust enough - to have great experiences with is very difficult. I think post TWI I have a lot of difficulty with trusting people or allowing people to move into a place in my life that really matters. I am finally starting to work on that though.

  17. You're reminding me of Graeser and Lynn, who have said they like to 'drop bombs' here and other places where they can mess with people. Basically - they're as s holes and I'd love for them or others of their ilk to do that in person face to face but they prefer to duck and hide and mess with people online, rather than engage in a discussion. In person you could grab them by the collar and wring their buck teeth out, but online, you can't. Just sayin' - their methodology is similar to you, here.

    Thanks, Socks. For as long as he has been here, I have tended to take him seriously and to honestly try to understand his viewpoint. Perhaps you just hit the nail on the head. Maybe it is all just one giant mind game. And even if it isn't, perhaps it is better if I just never do understand some people.

  18. But then, comes another amusing question: Through His foreknowledge God knew Satan was going to rebel, yet He created him anyway. Why?

    Just as through His foreknowledge He knew man would eat the fruit of the tree in the garden of Eden, yet he put it there anyway. Again, why?

    SoCrates

    In Judaism it is said that God intended for man to eat of the tree, but that the eating of the tree was to take place at a certain time. Man ate from it too soon and the knowedge he received caused chaos. Judaism doesn't teach we are now all born with sin nature. Rather, it teaches that we are to do our part (and our part varies from person to person) to help restore order.

  19. About the family with the turd bit; this girl really needed to lighten up and it worked. She actually considered it loving (oh boy, he's chasing me again, tee hee). The guy never soiled her, he was just doing it to gross her out (lighten her up). That's how it was explained to me.

    Did you actually know this woman personally or are you basing your opinion on one side of a WOW war story? Because when I read this story what I see is someone seriously violating someone else's personal boundaries in a way that would be unacceptable in almost any society (except perhaps among 2 year olds).

    Then again, there is a logic to it that does fit. A large part of what took place in TWI was about violating someone's personal boundaries to the point that they no longer had any. Much easier for leadership to dictate someone else's life, to get someone to the place of "spiritual maturity" such that they can violate them emotionally, spiritually, sexually, etc - by teaching them it is somehow wrong and shameful to have personal boundaries. But it was okay cause it was all in the name of "lightening up."

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  20. quote:

    Just so I'm clear about what you meant...

    Is "the rude truth" you're referring to that "she needed to masturbate more"?

    Yes.

    Ya know, I have tried really hard to see your perspective on things. In the end, I can only conclude you are one truly sick and twisted puppy. And yeah, it is a personal attack and the moderators can go ahead and smack me for saying it.

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