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socks

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Posts posted by socks


  1. On 11/3/2018 at 1:03 PM, Rocky said:

    About 150 moons later... :wink2:

    Wow!! I've been perusing the posts here lately and just saw this and thought hmmm....

    the sower online page link came up "nothing found for Sower Current.html" which seemed ironic for a site with the slogan "Building an Enduring Work of Truth" and then I checked back on the start post date and realized this post was started on May 31, 2006......Bush Jr. was president.....and a year before the first iPhone was released. 

    I thought about where I was and what I was doing in 2006. A year later I took a major career step, one that turned out very well. It was a very different time and place but even now when I read that I thought how odd, what's this person talking about? And I think if I'd read that in 2006, and maybe I did, I'd have thought the same thing.

    I hope things have gone well, frisco person! Looooooooooooong time no see! Live well and prosper! 


  2. 1 hour ago, Raf said:

    Right?

     

    It's like, "With all due respect" always comes RIGHT before a devastatingly disrespectful insult.

    (inserts LOL's)

    Used in a sentence together - 

    "With all due respect, it goes without saying that the proposed plan under review, well, it sucks donkey balls."


  3. Some stuff to catch up on here - 

    I heard VPW play that tune a few times, "Ol Rattler" or whatever it was. Later years, on one occasion, he did it on one of the Saturday "Doos" on the "Asphalt Terrace" outside the Wierwille Home and the Barn. I remember dropping in and thumping out the chords behind him the second time through - C and G7. VPW had told me way back in 1971 when he was out on the West Coast that he played some guitar, just a few chords and had played a little when he was young. I was showing him my Gibson LP, a '67 Gold Top and one of the other members had a Gibby SG he liked too. He was interested in the way you'd expect, like okay, now what. But it's funny, while he'd play that tune with all of it's two chords, he could strum with his thumb and keep the beat. Not exactly a player but he could play that. 

    Shazdancer - the music was weak, I agree, but they had enough talent to do something decent. It seemed to be just all wired together wrong, the arrangements didn't sound coherent to me but there wasn't really any "story" for the music to follow. It was so abstract, yet struggling to communicate a complete vision. As I posted above early - it reminded me of that old 50's horror flick "The Mask". Today it would be one of those "so bad it's funny" movies, if you're doing a year in County. In fact, the only way I'll ever watch AOS again is if it's shown by Mystery Science Theater 3000. 
     

     

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  4. penworks - howdy! I've got a question for you on this topic and I'm kind of spring boarding from some things in your book "Undertow".

    Did you think or do you think now that Walter Cummins had any real moral or ethical platform from which he dealt with the lack of footnoting and crediting in the books? Since he'd done the time in Germany and been the bedrock of the current work we heard and saw in the Way Corps I have to wonder - in reading through what you wrote in Undertow, and what I've heard from others that were in the Research department, I don't think i've ever heard if there was an actual set of standards & guidelines for how to deal with footnoting and crediting that covered this topic of copyright and ownership. Or was it just ignored? My sense is that it was ignored but perhaps I'm just looking for a clear statement, was it ever really recognized by the teams over the years, to your knowledge? 

    T'anks!

    Also -  I remember you DWBH one day early in the 4th Corps when you came from VPW's study with some photo copies of pages from one of his copies of a Bullinger book - some stuff on Ephesians? Anyway it was a big deal as I recall, like there was real mojo in that paper! 

     

     


  5. On 10/24/2018 at 3:59 AM, waysider said:

    Thanks, Socks

    That's a fascinating topic. I couldn't get the link to open directly but here is one that is similar. Memories are what define us.

    As usual, I'm inclined to take this off on a similar tangent.

    HERE

    It works now. 

    That's a great link there, thanks. 

    I'm glad I took the time after leaving active participation in the Way to slowly and surely re examine my experience. What'd I'd been taught, learned, done, seen, etc. Not all at once, it took several years and in fact I took awhile after leaving to basically decompress. I was fortunate that my relationship with my wife wasn't a product of or embedded into the Way, we'd come into PFAL and our education and work with the Way together and I always understood that our foundation together was the foundation to whatever else we did, singly or together. We've spent probably 100's of hours going over many many things and in that way I've been able to compare two different perspectives - hers and mine. It's amazing what the human mind can do and how it works, and I say that with the appreciation of my own limitations. 

    I remember hearing some mook in the Way say once "It's good to think things through but it's better to believe", which was Way talk for stop acting like you know more than me and do what you're told. After that guy got terminated from his position later I had to wonder if he regretted not having thought things through more. Y'know? 


  6. On 10/20/2018 at 8:57 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

    BGL was never at the ROA in 1985. That’s the year dictor paul died. Leonard was an invited guest at Living Victoriously and Corpse week/ROA in 1982.

    You saved me the time, DWBH, thanks. But as long as I'm here I have to say this casts some light towards understanding SMS, "selective memory syndrome". It can take different forms including as a legitimate form of therapy for some forms of depression. 

    Not to say that's the case with Mike's Mystery Corps-Person and Mike's verson of what actually happened and when but it may explain how certain "facts" from the past can become real for some people. I've spoken to some ex-Wayfers and Corps who are sure they were at certain events and heard certain things or conversely did NOT hear or experience certain things, and it all wraps up into a kind of wash-of-memory. 

    An individuals perspective and actual experience may be very different in an event shared with others of course but I've found that when people endlessly quote what "Doctor always said" about something over and over as if they heard it many times over a long period when in reality they only heard it once or twice if at all, but have then HEARD IT FROM OTHERS TOO that he said it.....this can create the kind of "absolutely true" statement of a "fact" that may not be tethered in reality. 

    BGL considered VPW a "bad student", not a bad copyist. Whether that be true of not it's an understandable perspective if Leonard is seen as the instructor of a class curriculum that VPW then changed and re formatted into his own class. That's the territory of both plagiarism and ethics. (aka "thou shalt not steal", a very inclusive order from God meaning to not take something from someone that isn't yours....and whether that be the stealing of God's own Word and taking steps to protect your own ownership of it or just outright theft of another's work done heartily before their Lord....it's not a hard concept, unless you're guilty)

    Both VPW and BGL functioned knowingly in a country with laws that they were obliged to recognize and obey. I myself never thought that VPW felt justified in collating BGL's and others existing material into a new form that he would then "own" because it was "God's Word" and governed by a higher standard.....because IF he had truly felt that way, he would have been able to openly make his case and take his stand on those grounds when he was challenged. It would not MATTER who wrote what first, if that were really his position. Instead he constructed his own version of it in his own timeline and constructed a very complex and detailed history to support it, of who he himself was, what he'd done and what experiences had influenced him and how.

    Anyhoo - this is an interesting article - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/8620360/Selective-memory-does-exist-say-scientists.html

     


  7. Yeh, I remember How to Enjoy the Bible Doglover, it was a very good book of Bullinger's, I got a copy shortly after taking PFAL the first time in '68, along with one of the early hard bound Companion Bibles, a huge book that was cheaper than the leather bound, which I got later. There was also a set of tapes the Way did titled "How to Enjoy the Bible", with a lot of the parts taught by Walter Cummins, and VPW, if memory serves. It was basically a shorter rehash of the book..I know because the Way West had a copy of them and my wife and I got them after we were married in '71 and listened to them off and on over the next month. HTETBible really did have most of the study and "research" methods taught in PFAL. It was a very good book, and one I used to recommend people get after they took PFAL. 


  8. Gift ministries - a short hand term for the stuff in Ephesians 4:10 - 12. They're gifts, they're ministries, etc. I don't spend much time tripping on that one. 

    Today we have a collection of scripture from which to establish a usable context for the Christian message, religion, belief, history, etc. And we have a "New Testament" of writings.

    From which I gather that all of the things specifically listed in Ephesians 4:11 are also generally the kinds of things that followers of Jesus Christ are able to do, or can be doing let's say. 

    The Way's teaching sub text for 4:11 was that all those born again had the "same measure of faith" that wasn't received or achieved by their effort and wasn't earned but is given equally to all who believe in Christ. The "gift" of "holy spirit", pneuma hagion. There are therefore no special accoutrements that are given to some and not others. All are enabled with the "enablements", and that is whatever well, whatever we're told in the New Testament. 

    So - without going into a lot of detail we're probably all familiar with I think one has to ask themselves what makes these 5 things different from anything else the born again child of God receives in the gift of the new birth? 

    Today I would assume from what the NT says every born again child of God....

    Can apostle - and is sent to bring the message of Christ to others.
    Can be a prophet - and speak for God and on God's behalf.
    Can teach - and teach the Word of God.
    Can pastor - and provide support and care for the church, the "flock".
    Can be an evangelist - and act as an ambassador for Christ and tell others about HIm. 

    ....Without a special dispensation from God to the Church. 

    Where this has gone for me is a slightly different view of what the "Church" is, and what exactly the "body of Christ is", and what God through Christ is doing ... with all this. Man's "Church" is largely a collection of traditions and tangibles that deal with the physical world and lives and so that needs support and provision, ordnance and protection even.....but....a lot of that deals with the affairs of a kingdom that is not part of what God is actually building and won't be resurrected in a future phase.

    One point I would call out is that it appears these 5 things listed in Ephesians (and referred to elsewhere too) and termed for "the work of the ministry" is for a specific kind of function or "office" within the church. And that carries a hella bunch of baggage with it in today's religion, but not if it's viewed in an Ephesians context, a "spiritual one" where there's no phoney man made construct. A function or even call it a "distribution" isn't a job or a position. Man thinks up and down and sideways, hierarchically - in the Kingdom of God there's no big hierarchy of mid management, which is how I think the religious version sees it.

    Anyway, however we view it we're given very clear instructions by both Jesus and "Paul" on how we should treat each other, think of ourselves and conduct our affairs in this life, as His followers, children of God and it isn't political or economic - it's social, familial. Abusive behaviors and practices in the Church by people doing "the work of the ministry" always reveal a departure from the fundamentals of our faith.

    It's not nearly as exotic or complex as we might make it - Jesus told us don't act prideful, don't put yourself above others, don't be an ass hole and treat people like shi t and they should be grateful you even talk to them. Be meek, be a servant to others, help them, treat them nice, be willing to forego revenge everytime someone looks at you wrong, forgive. And I guess Jesus could have said "Look at how I put up with you morons. Remember that the next time you want to hate someone who's cut in front of you at the pita bread stand."

    God didn't send a judge, He sent a savior. Dig it.  


  9. R and R - 

    Martin Luther's objections to Roman Catholic doctrine and practice led his actions. RC doctrine was a hybrid of the Bible's "saved by faith" or as Paul put it another doctrine that wasn't really another doctrine but a completely different animal of it's own kind. Luther also objected then of course to them selling Indulgences, certificates that gave remission of sins after one died. Now THAT'S a scam worthy of some effort. If you're going to absolutely degrade anything resembling even the slightest bit of good, then go all in - put one's eternal future on it and sell that puppy. Sit back and watch it roll in. Pretty nifty. If you're THE DEVIL. 

    Anyway, Luther wasn't really trying to demolish or destroy the Catholic Church, he wanted to clean it up, purge it. He also had some ideas that would become popular later, like getting rid of the Jews in Germany. Anyway...

    Restoring and reviving is only important to people's lives. I can say that easily because whatever I lost through my dis association with the Way has been far outweighed by not having to be entangled with their bullsh it. The only thing I care about still today are the people involved, but if they're happy stewing and simmering there I can't do anything about that. Frankly I've never made it a full time job to "save" them from themselves. Cuz they don' a wanna change, so they's a not a gonna change, no matta wattah I do. 

    Luther never got the RC's to change. Well, maybe a teeny bit sort of over years but not in any real substantive way that they would recognize. More recently I think it was Pope Benedict who tried to establish some ecumenical platform for RC's accepting  a couple tenets of Protestant theology buuuuuut I think that's just window dressing on the ol' RC Childcare Store front. I mean, they're church face. 

    Anyway - that's why I don't worry about what the next wave of geezers leaving the Way is doing. The only advice I would give them is they aren't young anymore, so there's not a lot of years to burn doing something you don't really want to do. So get busy livin' and get on with it.  

    • Like 4

  10. 9 hours ago, Taxidev said:

    Exactly.  And that is what I meant be bringing that structure back - a free, open structure, where Jesus Christ is the head and ALL THE REST of us are the body.

     

    Absolutely.  Actually, your entire description fits perfectly, but this section really hit a chord.  It can be helpful for someone who is knowledgeable on a particular topic to share on that topic.  But I get more out of a group study session, where each of us contributes what we do understand, and also asks questions to provoke more study, deeper study, and then sharing with each other the results of that study.

    Paul shared his incredible understanding with many, but he act like their boss - he knew he wasn't their boss.  That's iron sharpening iron, which apparently is what God wants us ALL to do.

    I was told in my fellowship that we should stand when an ordained minister enters the room, so I asked why?  Doesn't it say specifically in the bible not to do stuff like that?  Not to give greater honor because of a title?  They had lost what really mattered, living the Love of God.

    This is precisely what I saw TWI had become.  It was boring.  And while some of the teachers locally to me were pretty good, it was still so pathetically rigid in its format.  The life was drained out, it was just business as usual.

    Anyway, socks, I think you nailed it.

    Thanks. 

    The stand-for-the-boss routines used in the Way were, are heinous. You'd think if they read Corinthians and Ephesians they'd get the idea that when the "believers" get together to hang out, pray, fellowship or eat it should be the ONE and possibly last place on earth where you can chill and be yourself and not have to lose a good seat and the big piece of chicken to some "elder" everyone feels the need to impress since they took their precious time to come and eat your food, drink your coffee and talk to you about something you may have already heard. Many times. And better. So I agree with that. 

    Someone told me once they'd drive hours to hear Lynn teach - "He's SO FUNNY". 

    He's not that funny. You gotta be pretty lonely, desperate or just plain sad to think that.  I think that's why he mugs it up so much - he uses physical tips and triggers to signal when he's trying to be funny. Somewhere between the standing up for His Reverendship and the auto-laughter triggers there's a sore butt in a chair, that much I know. But - it's better than robbing a 7-11 I guess. 

     

     

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  11. 1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

    Wow, Socks – you’ve really got me thinking there!

    Wasn’t it something along the lines of a transition out of necessity for the early Christians to start meeting in the homes – since the Gospel message wasn’t that welcome in the synagogues… …but as you said seeing something like what we read about in Acts as just one facet of a “functional guide as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body…” so maybe there’s some formalism…or traditionalism in the thinking of some folks who have an excessive adherence to doing some things exactly as they did in the Bible. I guess it looks biblical.

    …different times, different cultures…and a lot more technology…the Internet, cell-phones, blogs, Facebook, Instagram,  YouTube, books, magazines,  "planes, trains and automobiles:rolleyes: etc. help folks connect, focus, organize, meet, stay informed and not just the social aspect but even scripture/doctrine/research-wise…we’re light-years ahead of the printing press – online Bibles, commentaries, research tools, etc...that reminds me - I heard of a drive-thru church on the radio...I'm not kidding...that's just another amazing modern marvel :biglaugh: .

    a few years ago there was a discussion on one thread where I mentioned something along the lines of Grease Spot being my church. In some ways it still is…granted, it’s a pretty diverse congregation with no special creed... I think there’s an ongoing healing service in the About the Way forum…well, it’s great therapy for me anyway…and I kinda see the Doctrinal forum as a multi-faith * council where Grease Spotters come together to exchange ideas and information and to have a dialog about biblical/spiritual/religious/philosophical and sometimes social issues. (* by “multi-faith” in this context I simply mean "faith" is whatever your beliefs are - I just used "faith" cuz it sounds churchy ).

    but - - - - even though the times and cultures may be different – I think you’ll still find the same basic concerns are present: family, safety & security, livelihood, social needs, the human condition…purpose and meaning in life...so I think the guts of your religion, philosophy...or whatever it is that you believe has the "timeless answers" -  should be able to adapt to any given environment and conditions to meet those needs.

    Yikes ! Can I ramble or what?!?! Sorry about that…anyway bringing it back to some thoughts I’ve had pertinent to this thread: who wants to revive and restore things to “the good old days”...or however you fondly remember things...Not me…honestly, everyone has had different experiences…I prefer to pick and choose what to hold on to and what new direction or directions to explore...as far as the R and R folks go - - I guess I am a little very  leery or cynical that a bunch of “old timers” who have no retirement benefits from TWI now want to start their own group purely for altruistic reasons…getting back to the good old days or whatever it is they're trying to resuscitate :spy: …yeah – right – that’s some noble-sounding bull$hit if you ask me.

    You're a ramblin' TBone, but no more than me! Great stuff, I'll be digesting for awhile. 
     


  12. 3 hours ago, Taxidev said:

    I wouldn't say, "too", I would say "only".  Unless we're trying to revive and restore the 1st century church, there's nothing since then that's worth reviving and restoring.  Everything after that has been a construction of man, and I'm sure we all know what that means.

    True. But I am not for reviving and restoring anything from the past, to be honest. I made a mostly rhetorical statement with that, since I think we can guess that as long as some of these peeps have an audience, an interest and a paycheck be it dollars or just ego-boosting praise and worship, they're going to go their own way. But yeah, remove and replace is the ideal way to go. 

    My view of the Gospels, Acts and Epistles are that while they give me a view of what happened, and why and a strong degree of "what God wants us to know" in terms of doctrine and practice I don't think they should be viewed as the one-and-only way in which to do things, to live. They don't really provide a finished template from which a final product will be produced, rather they give what I'd call a "functional guide" as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body, we have attributes of say, a fountain or a river - everyone sees the water and hears the sound of the water but it's not the same water every minute. The whole of the expanse of what is that river or fountain is much larger than the single drops I see at one time. 

    For generations the word "Church" has been synonymous with "Building". The Church has for many been first a place where a leader of some sort presides and the people gather and attend to listen and participate in some form of ritualized activity. Yet we don't see that happening in the first few generations of Christians and there's nothing written indicating that's the desired state for the Christians in the records we see generated by Luke, Paul, Peter, and other writers and scribes of that early era. 

    So we get from the Bible a kind of "how to do all things through Christ, how to be abased and how to abound", in both individual life as well as group church life. The clearest message of the epistles is that there is no need for anything extraneous beyond the people themselves and their ability to come together and meet and interact as a "body" of Christ, with each person an individual part contributing to the whole, with support and assistance from God through Christ to each member. A "diversity" of ways and means, all through that "selfsame spirit". 

    So - and this is like preaching to the choir I suppose - but by building an extensive library of copy cat rituals, traditions and requirements that essentially act as governance for individual and group behavior we, they, whoever, severely restrict their own ability to really "be" the body of Christ. Any artifice or facade, any set of authorization codes for specialized access, any levels of participation, titles, recognition and reward that restricts the free movement of all the parts will reduce and even prevent growth and function. Timothy and Titus give us a well rounded view of how the church should "run" itself, and there aren't any peripherals. 

    Anyway - I find churches pretty boring and dull if all they do is meet/greet/sit down/shut up/listen/and go home,  and they'll become germ-farms for all manner of ungodly viruses. Today more and more churches diversify and work "across the aisle" with other churches who may do different things. And they should - if we're all Christian in essence we're all related and have a godly right to our own diversity as well as a godly responsibility to share with others. 

    What say ye? 

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  13. 4 hours ago, WordWolf said:

    With the emphasis on how freaking perfect vpw's system allegedly was, nobody's eager to REMOVE or REPLACE it. To keep the money moving and the people in their seats, they want to claim to just "revive" and "restore" the "classic" twi- since selective memory makes that a paradise that in few ways resembles the actual experience.

    Not for everyone, WW. But yeah, I get what your'e saying I think. 

    Your "selective memory" may parse the experience one way, but someone else, particularly someone who actually had an experience with VPW's "system" and it's "perfect" status as you called it, or otherwise will have theirs. In fact I think a person's actual experience is going to be primarily for them to evaluate. They may be wrong or right by any number of values including yours and my opinion and informed evaluation - but it's theirs to have. And I would add in my own sphere of contacts I would say there are people who see their past experience differently than I do, and who in fact see certain things more favorably and positive than I do, or would and vice versa. I've come to understand through extensive conversations with them - as friends and not to debate or condemn or even arbitrarily correct anything but just to share the loving friendship we have - that they do think differently than I do about certain things. I offer my perspective and where I think it's a matter of "handling the Word of truth" I do my best to help where I can but it's up to them to consider and decide. Interestingly these are not all cut and dry matters looking at it within people's lives and not as an academic reconstruction of a past I have only heard about. 

    And to be clear, I have NO skin in this game, theirs or any other, other than to put forth my own ideas and information. I am still not a member of any Way or ex-Way ministries, fellowships, groups, churches or organizations, formally or ex officio. I'm still me.  And I can promise you that barring a hand written granite card from God showing up on a Grand Canyon wall addressed to me saying do otherwise, I have no intention of joining in anyone's effort to restore, revive or restuff and pickle anything to do with The Way. I'm just fine, thankya.

    I do know some of these people being named and have varying interests in their well being but overall I'd say I have an interest for anyone and everyone to be well and learn and enjoy the life God has for them.

     

     

    • Like 2

  14. 11 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

    With the emphasis on how freaking perfect vpw's system allegedly was, nobody's eager to REMOVE or REPLACE it. To keep the money moving and the people in their seats, they want to claim to just "revive" and "restore" the "classic" twi- since selective memory makes that a paradise that in few ways resembles the actual experience.

     

    classic coke meme.jpg

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  15. Innerestin' - there's a bit of that in the contect of 2 Twinky, as the writer is warning Timothy about a couple people who were teaching and misleading people. 

    Here's a nice translation of that section of 2:

    Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 
    Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
    Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. 

    "handling the truth" correctly, or "making a straight way" with the Word of truth.....later in verse 25 it reads "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth"...

    "Restoration and revival" - The phrase implies there's a former state that is being restored and revived, presumably a right one, a good one, one that should be present. It has to be a personal thing, a people thing that deals with individuals lives. Frankly I think it's going to have to be more than mirror image of what once was, and it's really just like the logic of Timothy's wisdom and in the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 9 - "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost as well as the skins. No, new wine is put into fresh wineskins." When Jesus was asked why His followers didn't observe fasting practices and traditions that were were advocated by the religious leaders of the day  he used that example to illustrate that it was better to not try and put His teaching into the old practices that didn't serve or represent the same things he was teaching. Much like today we would not want to dress up or refresh old ideas based on doctrine that was was wrong and then try to achieve different results - it doesn't really make sense. (or you might say "....doing the same things over and over and expecting different results is insanity....") 

    Ephesians 4:11-16...."Ministries" are God given spiritual gifts from God to the Church, the body of Christ. They are given to people, for people. God doesn't give "Gift Farms" or "Gift Buildings" to the Church, he gives spiritual gifts to His people and the "work of the ministry" is to help support each other into a rich full relationship with God, in the "church of Christ". The realities of that are in us, in our lives, thoughts, feelings. The "invisible" things of God are then visible through our lives.

    So every church pastor needs a sign in his office that says "it's God and the people, stupid!"....because everything in the Bible leads us to understand that all this claptrap we're so earnestly building to glorify God is going to turn to dust and end up in someone's else's landfill. What will go on forever is - "Love", the essence of the pneuma hagion that is the "us", reborn, anew, and rockin' that new body smell someday. The BRC won't be resurrected, that grass I cut so clean and neat to look good for the Sunday Night Services won't be restored. It's "LIFE", our lives, eternally bound together with God, now. 

    One thing I learned is that I needed to REMOVE and REPLACE some of the things that had accumulated and worked their way into my spiritual life, things I thought were necessary, things that were comfortable and familiar. In reality they were just baggage, dead weight. "Nice to have's". So perhaps there needs to be a REMOVE and REPLACE movement too. 

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  16. Yae! That's nice work, T-Bone and TaxiDev. Thanks. 

    I read 2:15 now and I see it pointing towards how the truth is handled, and as the person being one who "works the ground", a cultivator. 

    To an extent it was self serving for VPW to overly emphasize 2:15 as meaning researching the Bible since that's what he said he did. He expounded on how he had spent hours and hours every day for years "working that Word", studying it, "rightly dividing it". Yet, in context the reader would never get that impression from chapter 2, without the impression of the English word "Study"...."spoudazo" is used 11 times in the N.T. and is never translated study anywhere else, or anything similar. In fact in use it deals more with what one does and how they do it, like being diligent or eager, or putting forth strong effort, "work". It's not sitting behind a desk racking up hours in books although that could certainly be part of how it could be understood in broader context. 

    Yet, without doing that and doing it with a high degree of honesty and integrity, the Bible can be very misunderstood. So it's really .... ironic. How this all shapes up. Life can be - just, weird and wildly whacky.

    I for one appreciate what VPW did with PFAL and although I was very young first taking it I got it fairly quick. The 1967 version was at least the second formal collation of the teaching into a "class". It would have benefitted from a Ver 3.0, maybe even a 4.0, to straighten out a few sections and shorten it to it's leanest and greenest rendering. He never - ever- ever- supported the idea of continuing to work on PFAL to improve it - in the Way culture of that time it was sacrosanct. And as time went on and I got to know VPW more it always seemed clear to me that he was overly impressed with himself, or at least wanted everyone else to be. That said, most of the work he pulled together and taught has been very useful to me. 

     


  17. 11 hours ago, Taxidev said:

    Thank you, socks.  That's great feedback.

    And, as I'm sure you've guessed, I don't date back to VPW - he was dead already when I started attending my first twig.

    Sure, thanks. 

    I've picked that up, yes. I think you're pretty astute in your estimation that all of this is different for those who had experience with how all this went down over the years we were involved. 

    While that teaching is Vintage Way and actually fairly consistent with what is taught by many other non-Way sources, there's one part that is easy to gloss over and actually freaks a lot of old timers out when they hear that it might not state exactly what VPW taught about it, and that's his teaching on 2:15, "study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that doesn't need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth". Once I got it clear for myself my Bible didn't exactly "fall to pieces", simply because my understanding was different, rather it came together right in front of me. Whenever I hear Vintage VPW teachings being repeated, I'm reminded of this. Bear with me if you would. 

    VPW taught 2:15 as a foundational scripture for every Christian, every believer, and his own research and teaching ministry. "Rightly cutting" the Word of truth, described by him as the exact "working" of scripture by the "workman" to properly "divide it", sort it out, parse it out to line up properly "just like in the original". 2:15 is carved in stone for those of us who took PFAL in the 60's and 70's, and who remember that story about Mrs. Dotsie VPW cuttin' that pie of hers so accurately. 

    In fact, further study over the years has led me to some additional understanding on this - first that "study" means exactly what he taught, "spoudazo", or "earnestly endeavor".....so it isn't specifically saying crack open the books and start studying, Paul is saying to "Work hard" to do something......and to be a "workman".....the kind of workman referred to is someone like a laborer or a field worker. We already are told in 2:6 that "the husbandman that labors must be first partaker of the fruits". The workman is a farmer, vineyard tenders, laborers, those growing a crop, tending a field, bringing up a crop, fruit.......so we can read it as "Work hard to show yourself approved to God by being a worker that doesn't need to be ashamed (of his work).....

    Rightly dividing is the single word orthotomounta, or orthotomeo per many sources and it means among other things "to make straight and smooth" as well as "
    to cut straight ways,  to cut a straight path, to proceed by straight paths, hold a straight course, and equivalent to - to do right".

    So we have "Work hard to show yourself approved to God by being  a worker that isn't ashamed of his work, making sure to hold to a straight, right course with the Word of truth"......

    There's a better translation of that I've worked up, I'm doing this from memory, but that's the basic idea and if put forth that way is truer to the context of chapter 2, which is handling the behaviors and correct actions of a church leader in the church, with others. It's not talking about academic study, it's talking about accurately "handling" God's revealed Word, of how it's lived and taught - not a mechanical process of efforts to set it straight, separate it or literally "divide" it.

    To this we can consider Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.",  and then John 1:23, ""I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness:  'Make straight the way of the Lord"...... Here the word euthyno is used, meaning "to make straight, level, plain, to lead or guide straight, keep straight".......

    I'd also have to consider the use in chapter 2's context  the usage of the word "husbandman" - Jesus compared God to a husbandman in John 15 - 
    “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit”  ........A husbandman cultivates the earth,  his plants, and naturally expects them to produce fruit as a result of the amount of effort he has invested in them. Our heavenly Father, the divine Husbandman, seeks to produce fruit through us as we ... abide in Christ. 

    All of which leads me to understand that ll Timothy 2:15 is talking about bringing people to God through Christ, "showing them the way", to make the way to Him clear, to help others through what we teach and what we do to come to Christ. As if to say "here He is, this is who He is, this is the Way".....Remove obstacles, clear the "way", make the path clear and open. Work hard to do that, be diligent in bringing forth fruit. This involves much much more from a person than teaching if they really want to have skin in the game. Timothy is told a lot about that, how to, what to do, what to look for, etc. etc. Teaching isn't excluded, far from it, but it's not limited to public speaking. 

    I'm NOT saying that we should never study the Bible, or never attempt to do the work to allow it to be so clearly and plainly understood that it can literally "interpret itself", nor am I saying that there aren't many wrong interpretations of the Bible, resulting in wrong teaching that makes it hard and difficult if not impossible to come to God through Christ and that those do need to be handled as part of "making that way" straight - but all of this fits very well with the words of Jesus when He said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but through me"....

     

    • Upvote 2

  18. Taxidev, I've spoken to a couple people who were at the Florida Labor Day conference. As to the teachings, I doubt the majority of what was taught would seem foreign to anyone who dates back to VPW's early ministry years, specifically the early Way Corps that were centered at the Farm and heard him in various settings settings ranging from the BRC, "Night Owls" in the Woods, under the "Apple Trees", Corps teachings and the many times he taught on other occasions and I'd also include Walter Cummins' teaching in that mix. The content followed a similar path that he took on the topic of "the Hope" and the presentations themselves, while unique to the individuals presenting, were very similar to his style and the style that was developed later by Craig Martindale, WITH THE EXCEPTION that there's a noticeable lack of the insulting, degrading motor-mouth childish imprecation and meaningless innuendo that he developed in his latter years at the lectern. 

    For example Moynihan's teaching on ll Tim 2:8-19. He held forth in a very compact 30". It's a very simple setting forth of those verses, and in the context of the theme of the weekend, "the Hope", carries some significant, relevant points. It carries the context of what VPW taught to the 4th Corps, in his Timothy teachings, which I was there for as were the Moynihan's who were also in residence at that time. A minor point but worth noting about those Timothy teachings is that the 4th Crops started as a 2 year program and early in the first year the 3 year program was put in motion (which eventually became a full 4 year plan, including a pre-Corps year, a res-year, field "Interim" year and then a final year in res.) The original intention was to complete the study with VPW of both l and ll Timothy with the majority of it being done in the first year, but it extended out over the entire 2 in res years. Walter Cummins handled a lot of material too. My point is that from my standpoint, hearing what Moynihan taught, it's a pretty systematic rendering of what VPW taught, with an emphasis on the 5, arguably 6, encouragements that Paul gives Timothy in that chapter. 

    My point - I'm not a fan of the Moynihan I knew years ago or have heard about from others more recently but I don't really know him at this point and arguably would have to give him the benefit of at least recognizing he finally left/got booted by/extricated himself from that snake pit at the Way.  Saying that,  I wouldn't have any problem with anything he taught, as one example of what was set forth that weekend. In fact, it's a teaching that nearly any Christian, AKA "Mystery minded" believer as he called it, or "those faithful followers in the household" or whatever context they choose to put it into, would benefit from hearing. Aside from that his presentation style is one that is respectful of both material and audience. What's not to like? It's certainly not the only place that could be heard, but it was the place it was heard that day, there. 

    I do want to also note, I heard a Pastor of a church who is completely disconnected from any Way history, people or teachings - no exposure whatsoever - teach essentially the same thing a few years ago. In fact, I've heard that taught and taught it myself, many times, and covered the same ground, without any specific adherence to anything VPW taught. That's because what he taught, what I've studied, what others have studied, will be pretty much the same in those verses if they're just read and not interpreted or placed into a self serving context to make a point. 

    I've spot checked some of the others earlier that I was interested in, I don't have anything to add really, other than the "simplicity" of God's Word, salvation through Christ, is a living simplicity, not a doctrinal exposition. It's very very simple to understand what we are to do if we simply see what Jesus Christ did and bring the message to others by being the ones who don't simply talk to them or shun them when we think it's necessary but rather prepare, engage and support, which is what Jesus Christ did for the many weak, suffering, hurting people of His time, and for all time. 

    • Like 2

  19. Unfortunately there aren't very many religious organizations that don't ask for money and all seem ready to accept it. Some teach the tithe as (insert any number of doctrines here), others sell products. Most accept donations. Jesus Christ accepted donations but He didn't fund brand a "worldwide ministry of hope and deliverance" or whatever and run it with donations. By all appearances He and His followers lived pretty basic lives, didn't accumulate possessions, buy land or property or invest or for that matter, loan. 

    To me it IS a fundamental issue if a religious business asks for and accepts donations from people. The IRS doesn't require a group of people who form a "church" let's call it, to apply for any exempt status or to classify themselves as anything. In fact, it's only after a certain amount which I think is $25K that they recommend an organization file. If they make over a $1K on unrelated activities they have to file. There's nuances to it all and a lawyer or good accountant could advise on best steps to take but the truth is, if a group of people wanted to meet formally and informally to share their faith and paid their own way doing it, the government doesn't want or need to know about it. 

    Once a group of people "form and file" with an external licensing agent (IRS) they can accumulate and use tax free income and those giving the group money can deduct it from their taxes. But there''s no need to do any of that to read the Bible, study it, teach it and conduct activities around a shared common interest. 

    Compare a small group of Christian believers to say, the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts can be tax exempt, and are asked to file now using a 990-N form. But a group of families don't need to be tax exempt to get together to camp, or learn carpentry skills or build go-karts and have picnics and sleep overs with the kids. 

    The issue of "mammon" and serving God is huge - today many churches of all types would consider it persecution if their tax exemptions were threatened, I'm sure. The real question isn't why do they have it and who's being served by it - it's why do it at all? 

    When a Church like The Way restricts it's members from giving anywhere else and penalizes them, socially or otherwise, if they do, is that really in the spirit of our laws, or the Bible's teaching for that matter? 

    This is all so embedded in our country's religious culture it's difficult for people to see a way out. Which is exactly why as of 2020 I will be fully set up to receive any and all offerings from anyone, for anything they believe in, don't believe in or would like to consider either way, including money, precious metals, cars, recreational vehicles, homes, property or anything else you'd be blessed to share with someone who, like me - socks - could accept and use in a fashion that will reflect the appropriate "no strings attached or accepted" philosophy of giving. 

    (For all who have recently left the Way and are still working out what it's like to decide what's funny or not for themselves, that last paragraph is meant to be a joke, comparing accepting money from those who....well, just give it a day or two and if it's not funny to you, it's not. Enjoy the rush of fresh air freedom brings!)

    • Like 2

  20. On 9/13/2018 at 7:15 PM, Rocky said:

    Makes sense. Thanks. Btw, I believe your expression, "the Oikeos 'business'" is on the mark. 

    Yep.  I would go with saying most churches today are a form of "religious business", and especially so for small, localized groups like The Way Nash, ie anything that calls itself a "ministry" or a fellowship and that then declares itself tax exempt.

    The Way was supposedly all about "the church in the home". There's no part of that which requires legal protections or definition. People meeting to do as they believe is correct, within the laws of the land - what's to declare to the government about? "God bless America" indeed. 

    The Way Nash received "donations" from all over the country, from people meeting in their homes who basically felt they wished to give and support the work of a ministry they were being taught by. Big deal - right? Well, yes, since The Way had declared itself tax exempt it needed to answer to the government for those donations so as not to pay taxes on them as income. So being a tax exempt "church" actually required them to be as tied to governmental controls as if they were just licensed as a business, maybe even more so. 

    Without being cynical or judgmental, I think it's just obvious and logical to recognize that when a Wafer group splits off from the main mother-ship and forms their own group and gets recognized as a "tax exempt church" the primary reason is so that money can be received to support the church operations and not get taxed. 

    That's business. Non profit, charitable action can happen without forming a legal entity to do so. Jesus told His followers to give Caesar what he's got coming, and do the same with God. I might actually debate Him on the former, while accepting the latter, but that was His position and in many ways it makes sense. And arguably if Caesar had given a pass for traveling Rabbi's maybe He would have put in for it, being the Messiah and all though, I kind of doubt it. We do know what He said though and that He paid temple taxes. He also accepted financial support and had a close follower manage "the bag" accounts. (Who tragically but interestingly turned out to betray Him and got paid for doing so. )

    In short, Jesus actually appeared to steer clear of "Imperial Entanglements" unless they came to Him for help, as did the soldier seeking help for his servant. 

     

    • Upvote 1

  21. Hello BlueCord! Wikipedia may well be correct in their interpretation of their policy and guidelines. I've been through this ad nauseam in other unrelated areas of Wikipedia. I'm not sure I agree how they're describing their position but - well, take a look at a couple other entries for organizations that are very publicly labelled "cults" by many people including former members - 

    Scientology's page opens with this line:
    Scientology is a body of religious beliefs and practices launched in May 1952 by American author L. Ron Hubbard (1911–86).

    LDS/Mormons open with this:
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), often informally known as the Mormon Church, is a nontrinitarian, Christian restorationist church that is considered by its members to be the restoration of the original church founded by Jesus Christ.

    Yet if we look up "Cult" on Wikipedia we read a very broad discussion of the topic that starts with this: 
     

    Quote

    The term cult usually refers to a social group defined by its religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or its common interest in a particular personality, object or goal. The term itself is controversial and it has divergent definitions in both popular culture and academia and it also has been an ongoing source of contention among scholars across several fields of study.[1][2] In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices,[3] although this is often unclear.[4][5][6] Other researchers present a less-organized picture of cults saying that they arise spontaneously around novel beliefs and practices.[7] Groups said to be cults range in size from local groups with a few members to international organizations with millions.[8]

    And so on and so forth....

    To your intent and point however, it could be appropriate to say something to the affect of the Way being considered a cult by many (for the following reasons)....etc. etc. Whether anyone believes that to be true or not, it has been a fairly consistent accusation historically since it's growth in the 70's and as such would simply be a statement of a significant fact reflecting a concern of society in regards to new religious "movements". 

    So the logic is kind of like saying "John Lennon once said that he felt The Beatles were more popular then Jesus, given the reactions of their fans around the world to their music".....as opposed to saying "John Lennon said The Beatles were more popular than Jesus"......both statements are "true" but arguably the first statement gives more information. 

    The Wikipedia page covers a great deal of information on The Way and in my opinion does a decent enough job - but you'll notice that while there's mention of Martindale's "sexual misconduct" and other issues, nothing's mentioned of that being an accusation made against his predecessor. VPW gets a pass on that  - and that's buggy to me from a historical standpoint but - I get why that's probably the case, ashis accusations don't have any legal or formal record and Martindale's does....so a writer would be on safe ground to note LCM's history as it's a matter of court record, but VPW's problems with it such as they may have been - are not. Still and all it has become a very public part of the Way's history, of that there's no question. 

    And while reading it I think there's a very telling few lines about the Way West and East, and the era of Jim Doop and Steve Heefner.....it's this part under the paragraph "The Way":
    "Some of the groups he met later incorporated as The Way East (based in Rye, New York) and The Way West (based in Mill Valley, California), groups that utilized Wierwille's PFAL class in their ministries.[10] Wierwille also recruited a number of new members on his trip, marking a period of large growth for his ministry. Wierwille later merged The Way East and The Way West into The Way Inc., now the Way International.[21][22]"

    That very succinctly describes what happened, and the results of what they're calling a "merge"  indicates the intent of VPW to grow his ministry's assets into a larger organization. But calling it a merger is like calling a shi t storm a reason to buy more toilet paper. Clearly the writers of the Wiki page are giving VPW a pass and making the earlier history of the Way dust free, while lightly covering the later problems that more people alive now are likely to know about. 

    Anyhoo - don't sweat it.  Peace!!


     

     

    • Upvote 1

  22. On 5/15/2018 at 8:26 PM, WordWolf said:

    Are you kidding?

    A) People with personal experience of lcm remember him as abrasive, domineering and foul-mouthed. Parents said their kids learned to curse from mandatory exposure to his tirades. Some of them were kicked out by him, and others got fed up and left because of him.

    B) The chicks in charge of twi (we need a nickname for the 3 chicks running the show now)  painted lcm as the big villain when he was in, and made it look like their hands were clean, no matter how complicit they were in everything.  He was set up to take the blame for everything THEY did as well as everything HE did.

    C) Leaders who were around dealing with lcm found him difficult to deal with at best, and abrasive and domineering at worst. None of them had positive memories of him overall. Even when he was "at his best",  he insisted on pushing his way into the spotlight and making sure his capricious whims were followed no matter how impractical that was.

    D) vpw knew to turn on the charm and fake being a nice guy. vpw knew to fake liking the leaders so long as he got his own way with them.  vpw was older and had the mystique he constructed, that he was on another level than the leaders that he dealt with (for the most part; a few never quite bought into it- hi, Ralph!) 

    E) People who have fantasies that twi was nearly perfect when they were young and naive credit vpw for the idyllic paradise of their fantasies- and need a villain to explain what went wrong. In their case, they blame lcm for freaking EVERYTHING.

    F) lcm lacks academic credentials, and the skill to plagiarize the way vpw did.  So, he has nothing of his own to bring to the table.  He presented his own versions of vpw's stuff, but in his urge to be different, he managed to construct inferior material to graft on, and it showed.  So, the old stuff is seen a superior to the lcm stuff.

     

    So, in short, at best, lcm is the designated villain, and at worst, the plague that adulterated vpw's stuff and ruined what was good to begin with.  So, lcm counts as zero when he doesn't count as a negative number.

    Hmmm. no. I'm not kidding. Was I not clear enough? Let me try again, more seriously. 

    "So is that correct - did LCM's legacy amount to "0" for EVERYone, whether they continue to maintain some, all or any part of what they were taught by The Way....?"

    I'm going to put your answer as a "Yes", my question/statement is true. So far everyone appears to agree. 

    Thank you for your response, it's appreciated. If anyone reading disagrees or has other thoughts or perspectives please feel free to respond! Thanks!


  23. Speaking of Refesteration and Revilery, here's a question fer y'all...lemme see if I can make this make sense...I was thinking about it after reading that one of the principles of the STFI/Truth of Tradition ministry had left and was teaching something radically different than what the group teaches. 

    It made me wonder - would those who leave that group refer back to their roots and the points at which they left the herd by name and by date, for instance using the name of John Schoenheit or John Lynn or whomever....since they're branching off from a group that built their doctrinal platform by the hands of a few people, it would make sense if they did. It might also make sense for them to reach even further back or for that matter, to skip people altogether and just start from "scratch" so to speak, from "The Word" and not what their previous founders and bible-pounders taught. Or from some other point of reference that they consider important. 

    Likewise, today there are groups, ministries, fellowships and otherswho are carrying forth the teachings of Dr. Wiewille, by name, both in part and whole. Refaced PFAL classes,  reworked teachings and books, in whatever form, some people openly favor all or some part of "what they were taught" and are willing and ready to keep the candle burning for "What Doctor Taught"....

    But - I never hear of anyone referencing or building their platform from what Craig Martindale taught - and he redid the Way's "Foundational" series class....yet there seems to be a vast void of anyone who references him directly as "What Rev. Martindale Taught" or as a way of calling the fold together around something he taught in the past....it seems no one sees a point of his involvement as a milestone date or event in a positive way.

    And I could see why - I personally can't think of anything he did or said that's worth remembering, other than some personal communications I might have had with him, but nothing on a deeper scale. I was only involved for a short few years after he took over but others were on board with him for many years....

    So is that correct - did LCM's legacy amount to "0" for EVERYone, whether they continue to maintain some, all or any part of what they were taught by The Way....? 

    Your responses are welcome. 

     

    • Like 1
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