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socks

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Posts posted by socks

  1. 1 hour ago, waysider said:

    But, then again, it might simply mean you're "on the ball".

    When a brown metal folding chair seems to be the only kind that feels comfortable so you tell your local Leadership that and act like its a good thing....
    You just might be brainwashed. 

    When you can't remember if it's your night to bring the coffee, or the cookies, so you just bring both because you know you'll get reproved if you bring the wrong thing...
    You just might be brainwashed. 

    When the dial in number goes dead and there's no sound but you just stare at the speaker because you want to report to Leadership what you did and tell them "that's just how faithful" you really are...
    You just might be brainwashed. 

    If your local Leaders criticizes a local "believer" because they don't give a lot in abundant sharing by saying "I'm glad I don't have to try and live off what they give!" and you don't take the opportunity to tell them what an asshole they really are...
    You just might be brainwashed. 

    (and yes, they all actually happened)

    • Like 3
  2. On 1/31/2024 at 6:07 PM, penworks said:

     

    Socks said: The original RoA was a night during the Winter Advance of 1971 that was called Rock of Ages. That summer of 1971 was the first R of A gathering. Over the next few years the event went from local fairgrounds to the Way's property in New Knoxville, "the farm". 
     

    Yes, and I was there at all of them, Socks, just like you. Great to meet you then and hear from you now! You were/are one of the "real" ones.

    The photo below appeared in The Toledo Blade newspaper. It captures the stage dynamic from ROA August, 1971, at The Way HQ near the pond. 

    On a personal note, I happened to be the Corps applicant who painted the banner at the back of the stage "The Word Over the World." I used orange paint, who knows why? And I remember making the banner out of oiled canvas up in the barn under dangling light bullbs (from the rafters) on a makeshift table made of plywood held up by wooden "horses," like the ones they use to stop traffic.

    I think that autobiographical detail is relayed in Undertow. Anyway, I hear that the WOW phrase is trademarked now. Lemme go back and paint a superscript TM on that banner, okay?

    To any staff member at HQ who is reading these posts here at Greasespot Cafe, I can't imagine any young people today would jump at the chance to re-enact such hippiedom-yoked to-Bible-thumping. But maybe I'm wrong. Stranger things have happened.

    image.jpeg

    Cheers, and you, you real one! I like that photo, that - if that's from 1971, it could be the Sunday Night Service when everyone was on stage during the closing evening events. Orange paint? Cool. That's interesting. Nice choice actually. 

    My take, considering the theory of the cyclical nature of systems and the good ol' laws of inertia, The Way Nash and its current iteration is pretty much what you'd expect - more of the same. I know they probably see all sort of steps towards change and godly inspiration and even guidance - but one thing history shows us is that change happens very slowly on a large scale, even when it happens very fast. I have only to look at the Bible's history timeline and I can see that. A messiah promised, expected, then - Jesus. Something might seem huge and monumental to "us" at the time, sure but factored into a 10,000 years it's a data point. Imagine what this all seems like to an eternal perspective? 

    Still, we are who we are in the time we are and there's no one else but us to do what only we can do. So...we do. Stuff. 

    We were talking with some friends our age about the whole "hippy" era and how it's memory and many of the period's artifacts have endured into today's culture. I was a teenager in the "summer of love" era, got around because I was playing so much music in the SF Bay Area, but a tad young for full participation. But many of the people of that era still live the life and gather to celebrate it. (you remember Crowbar....? Saw him at a club years ago, he's all in it and doing well bless his heart, I mostly hear through other friends and source of his ongoing efforts - in a lot of ways he's one of the many "real remnants" of the Christian faith that brought us all across each other's paths so long ago) 

    Anyhoo, hope you're doing well! I enjoy keeping up with your writing. Take care! 

     

     

  3. 7 minutes ago, chockfull said:

    socks!  We have a sighting :wave:

    So funny about the parallel elderly groups.  We do have an R&R splinter group going on - I do think it must stand for Rest Home and Rehab :biglaugh:

    my take is the brain trust probably all saw the matinee show for The Jesus Revolution and had an epiphany.

    But the people would rather see the Jesus Revolution than PLAF-T

    Why?  Because Christianity is for the masses not the brasses.  And Jesus in peoples hearts is better than a fat lie about “The Teacher” chewed up in 4 different cow stomachs and regurgitated for the world once more.

    Peace.

    :wave: 

    Hmmmm...yes. That's an interesting correlation you made there. I bet you're right. 

    That brings up a lot of thoughts. Thanks! 

    • Like 1
  4. 21 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

    I did a bit of a deep dive into these young people and many of them are the sons and daughters of old Way people. 3rd generation lifers, not new people. Word Wolf makes sense with his comment. I just want a Wow Burger.  

    My favorite R of A dinner was a WOW burger with ketchup and mustard. And a Snickers candy bar, with coffee. Two sugars. Good eats. :biglaugh:

    • Like 1
  5. 15 hours ago, cman said:

    yeah, funny how Craig was the one who shut down the roa killed for his own reasons.....thinking back on it I think he was offended and jealous of everyone being there and having a great time. This is part of how he took down twi, part of his plan cause I think he saw how really deceitful and evil some of twi is.

    Yeah - that's the truth there cm. Over the years I've seen the "train wreck strategy" used a lot. People in the middle of something they know is failing will choose to just let it happen rather than try to fix it. Then they don't hold any accountability and can rebuild from what's left. It's a dangerous game to play though and he lost miserably playing it. 

  6. 5 hours ago, Rocky said:

    Great insight there Socks. Of course, you are NOT them. A very salient question for them might be whether they are even capable of taking the temperature of the membership or are they just desperate for ideas (throwing spaghetti against the wall and hoping it will stick)? 

    Thanks Rocky. Juniors initial post got me to thinking.

    Good question though. I don't know, no idea really. I don't mean to demean the current leadership group there but I've worked with and learned from some pretty heavy hitters in the years since leaving there. We all have, I know I'm not the only one. I really don't know that they've grown up and out enough to have the kinds of skills that they would need to do great work. Good work, good enough, maybe. Sure. But "excellence" isn't a self defined self-congratulatory metric.

    So much of what we struggled to do under VPW's vision was limited to his personal preferences, his ego. In the 90's they had an idiot-squad there working with Martindale and then Rivenbark, a group of survivors who screwed over anyone who challenged their positions in the food chain. Looking back it's easy to see why it failed - no one was willing to let go of their own egos long enough to let great work happen. Like the lawsuits - settling isn't exactly a claim to innocence or greatness on their parts. It was great for the Allens case, and well deserved to see Rosalie and her team of toadys run like bunnies from getting Martindale on the stand. Can you ev-en imagine what that would have been like? 

    Is it different now? No idea. Some of the faces and names I am aware of might have a chance buuuut - and I take no pleasure in saying this - so many of them are just the ones who've manage to stay on, hold on and keep on coming back. The Way Nash is ending up as an archive and museum of it's own past, with young talent selling tickets. 

    Good looking bunch of kids though, I will say that. It's nice to see the kids growing up. May they have long healthy lives. 

  7. Former RC here, had a very good education in the RC doctrine. This was in the 50's and 60's. Kinda dropped off the rack about 1965. I don't embrace the religion but I appreciate the community and the way they've designed their church service buildings. 

    My take is that RC's developed their doctrines on hell, purgatory, satan and their view of heaven from a mix of early Christian records and doctrines, Jewish history, Roman philosophy and dieties and ancient Egyptian mythologies. The history of Christianity includes Roman influence, Constantine making it a legally recognized "state" religion. It all gets a long way from the Gospel records and the earliest epistles that spread the new doctrine of salvation in a faith in Christ. 

    Me? I believe that some of all that just reflects the simple realities of what we in fact see in natural life - humans die and our bodies turn to dust. If we're buried we are in the ground, in the dark and we have no consciousness that we know of. Dead bodies exposed to the elements look deformed and misshapen and frightening. The grave, the holes in the ground, the disposal and destruction of the human remains - all that's cold, dark, terrible. 

    Our consciousness isn't there anymore, at least as far as we know. The "me" of my life is somewhere else. Interestingly the body that my consciousness was in and knew, that hurt, got tired, was in pain or had pleasure, is gone. So any sense of "me" having any experience with it in a post-death existence wouldn't seem possible. So - what's this post Me, and what's it doing if in fact it's doing anything at all...? 

    Good question. My impression is that the idea - idea only - of a purgatory, might be seen in the process of our lives after death and over a future time. Not in a punishment or pseudo hell way or any of that but - if we do in fact die and lose consciousness but have a future restoration of it, in "new" bodies, there will be a process of purification that occurs where by our pneuma hagion fueled consciousness will have shed all past references to these bodies and this new life consciousness will inhabit a new body. 

    I'll spare dragging out all the verses in Corinthians and Thessalonians, etc etc that we all probably know, but I derived that from what's in the Bible. It seems to be similar to the process Jesus Christ went through - lived, died, resurrected, lived, ascended to the right hand of God (whatever that really means) If we follow suit in this timeline we have from here, it will be a process of change that will ultimately produce the New Me, in a "3rd heaven and 3rd earth". 

    YMMV. Peace and plenty, to all. 

     

    • Like 1
  8. Those do look like old photos!

    brining may be a typo but it kinda fits. 

    I assume they want to invoke memories of events long past, get the old time vibe going. "Better than ever, even better than best!"

    The age qualification reeks of a generational cleansing. The oldest would be born in 1989. The mid to late 80's saw the first influx of evacuees, post Geer taking a dump on the whole thing in 86. Martindale "resigned" in 2000.

    Will there be a "Rest for the Aged" event for the elders?

    A "Senior Acres of Shakers" drum circle? Maybe a virtual "Don't Stop Breathing Or Believing!" cheese and whine pairing event? 

    The original RoA was a night during the Winter Advance of 1971 that was called Rock of Ages. That summer of 1971 was the first R of A gathering. Over the next few years the event went from local fairgrounds to the Way's property in New Knoxville, "the farm". 

    It took on a life of it's own and to a great degree became a social meet up of the Way Corps each year. Early on it became a homecoming event for WOW Ambassadors. People from other countries came as the outreach reached out. 

    I remember the year after Emporia'd been up and running and the RoA  meeting when Martindale spoke to the Corps there and crowed on and on about how he had a great realization that hey! we don't just have to get together to have FUN, not that there's anything WRONG with that but hey! he could MEET with Corps, those coming into Emporia, going out, interested in the program, DO SOME WORK, get work done MOVING THE WORD. My wife and I looked at each other and thought the same thing - uh oh, there goes that. He and his leadership clones at Emporia, then staff then all the field leadership all suddenly came to the same "realization" and it became an all day schedule of them trying to figure out reasons to meet because they didn't want everyone having FUN all day.

    The social side of it was something that was natural and followed the social trends of the youth culture of that era. Both coasts were developing the new formats for concerts and events, Woodstock had occurred, etc. etc. The R of A's generated out of that social atmosphere, with their own twist.

    VPW had his own ideas of course and he spoke of it being a time for WC to meet each other, kind of an in house Tinder hook up for singles. I am well aware of all the discussions that have exposed the sexual activities over the years but to be honest, whoever was hooping up, from VPW on down, they kept their sexual partnering pretty secret and the edges I saw or heard about weren't common knowledge. In most legal settings what they did would meet the criteria for "lies" and lying, as there was intent to deceive and knowingly defend a false set of statements or facts....but I digress. It was garden variety lying and corrupt behavior imo, redefined by whoever wanted to into whatever they wanted to justify.

    But as far as it being a social gathering and people of like mind meeting each other - sure. It was plenty of that. 

    If I were them, and I'm not but if I were - and I'm not - I'd take a stepback and get the temperature of the membership, see what's going on and make room for something new and current to develop. Freshen it up. Allow for some spontaneous combustion. Set the stage, make the space, see what can be done. Inclusive, not exclusive. Everyone, at least all their tag bearing members current in their abs dues. And try doing something different than getting together in Ohio in August for God's Sake! which is part of the hottest muckiest periods in Ohio. 

    In todays' world they will not want to play fast and loose or take the position that it's "their place" and they can do what they want. They can't. If they f it up, they'll be toast before you can say "liability". 

    But hey - peace and love! Thanks for the memories Junior! 

     

    • Like 2
  9. The 13th Tribe stuff got a lot of attention but I didn't focus on it. 

    The Way appealed to a lot of contrarians with a mind set that entertained alternate theories to anything, who just wanted something different because it was different, who embraced looking at the "world" as one huge devilish conspiracy. In that universe a lot of stuff would get entertained just because, and if it was an easy add or kowtowed to PFAL in some way it could get air time or book store space. 

    Grace Bliss did some good work, and her background informed her evolution into the natural food and "health" movement that rolled into the 60's and forward. She did some summer school classes and had a book of recipes that I got a lot of out of. 

    Tom Brown Jr, the "Tracker" came through the Way in the 70's, spoke at the Ohio HQ at one point by invitation, I don't remember which year but I believe he came in as a guest and was probably paid. I remember VPW got riled up at how Brown talked about the local terrain and land and challenged his assessment of wildlife activity. I had to chuckle at the whole thing. There weren't many things that translated directly into my own activities but Brown's book was a fun read. 

  10. On 6/20/2023 at 8:22 AM, chockfull said:

    If “Drs Last Teaching” were lost for another 17 years what’s the probability that anyone except the thread starter here will actually give a shiz?

    Low. :biglaugh: Very low. 

    It's been about 20 years since the original was posted. During the discussions some things have been been clarified - no "last teaching" was actually "lost", and any case made to contend that it was willfully hidden or denied access to is unproven and factually untrue - I had heard that teaching. Copies circulated later amongst some of the WC and other members, as so much of what he'd said and written did. In that teaching VPW delivered parts of the core message he'd taught many many times before. The significance at the time was clear to many, in the context of his age and how the organization he'd started was already going under and had been, due in no small part to his own decisions, actions and intent. ("the Word of God", the Logos, is however still just that and as life goes on in our lives it will continue to "live" - no one's going to quench that)

    Then as now Mike says he's covered more "data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you", with no wife or children, he's had plenty of time to immerse  himself in this, his chosen interest. And he's willing to share it. Here. 

    So - Mike, to be clear, I'm not interested and won't be getting into this cycle of interest, beyond what I've written in these last three comments. I'm not a voice of moderation that will bridge any gap between extremes, in the context of this and the related discussions. GreaseSpot Cafe has been established as a place where "the other side of the story" can be told and it's been seen that there are as many sides as there are people, and all can speak to theirs. You too.

    Years ago at some point and for a time, your threads were being put in the Doctrinal section, as they actually deal with a topic that works from one or more doctrinal premises - well, that should, anyway. You balked at being restricted to what I think you called the "basement" - you wanted top level views where everyone could see what you wrote and you felt it wouldn't get attention there. (I'd actually suggested you be suspended or banned for a time, but that's not my decision and you never were, that I knew of, which I accepted and moved on.)

    Be that as it may or was or is or will be, your opinions are allowed here and others respond. I wish you no ill. I would still suggest you take a path of establishing your own online platform and repository where you can speak your mind and message and collaborate in a public setting with those of like mind, perhaps ask one of the many people that no doubt support what you're doing to assist with the tasks of doing so if you're unable to. You've been at this for many years now, surely there are others ready to move forward with you, making the way for others to follow. Right?

    Peace homeez!  Love y'all! 

  11. On 6/13/2023 at 6:04 PM, Mike said:

    Thank you, socks.  I miss your presence here, and am glad to see you check in some.

    I have had a few people contact me after they tried here and which I didn’t see till much later, regarding music. I don’t really browse the topics, but I did get a chuckle out of this thread being rekindled. 

    I will say - I’ve explained to a few people about that “moderation” thing - I’m not and I don’t seek that out as a means to learn and experience - well, “ more or less”. I’m much more interested in process and methodology and understanding shared principled approaches.

    But I have no moderation for, say, my story or what I know to be true, such as that is. I don’t  expect others to be about themselves either nor should they be. We all own our own stories, our life’s work and our gift of life and our choices. I’m actually - well I try to be - disciplined on how I think and in how I think about how I think. I work with binomial probability theorems and outcomes and distributions. I do try to be gentle with others but that’s “primum non nocere”.
     

    I can always exhort, encourage, support and try to understand, with Gods mercy and allowance and o try to do that. To me there’s no grand outcome in knowledge or even actions in and of themselves  until  there is a heart of humanity in them, just as “God so loved”, that He gave. 

     

  12. On 12/29/2022 at 8:36 AM, Mike said:

    I can agree and sympathize with much of your post here about keeping your distance from TWI-4, and from your past with TWI-3, -2?, -1?

    But the opening, about looking at the boat wake model I strongly disagree.

    "No VPW was a fake man of God because when you do as Jesus Christ instructs and don’t listen to a man’s hype but look at the wake behind their boat all you see is faux.  And destruction in the wake. "

    Let's compare how you and I look at the boatwake of the PFAL film&collaterals since 1968.  I do not mean to look at the boatwake of VPW, because that is no loner available to view first hand.  The film&collaterals wake is a lot more visible.

    Let’s compare how we sample opinions and attitudes of grads.

    I see a massive number of massively blessed for eternity people.  They are popping up more and more via the Internet, and in lots of ways. 

    You obviously see how eagerly I seek out and attempt rich fellowship and correspondence with antiPFAL grads, such as yourselves here at GSC. You see how I cross the boundaries of pro versus anti in grads’ attitudes towards film&collaterals. I cross these barriers all the time, and unceasingly since 1986.

    BUT do you see how eagerly I seek out and attempt rich fellowship and correspondence with proPFAL grads ???  No you don’t because I don’t do that here.

    What befell TWI-2 and TWI-3 has now befallen you folks: insularity.

    I don’t mean absolute insularity, but insularity relative to the major schism in the grad population: proPFAL versus antiPFAL.

    I am able to find common ground here and make some civil conversation that can lead to progress for the grad population.  Well, I try to do the same thing with proPFAL grads everywhere, on the net and locally. 

    None of them, hardly, are as intense on the special*collaterals as I am, but they like them in varying degrees.  I run into a different set of resistances to my message with them.  It is challenging for me there, sometimes, than it is for me here.

    There are a couple of extreme collateral fans like me scattered about, but we are aging and dying off pretty fast. Bill Winegarner was a proPFAL fan just a hair less intense than me. In his last year on earth, 2022, he self-published a beautifully hard bound Transcript of PFAL’68, the film class. He had made it himself or with friends.  He and I worked a little on fixing an earlier flawed version around 2001.

    I have made it my business to stay in contact with all my grad contacts since 1971. I refuse to recognize the walls of insularity I saw being erected QUICKLY after the POP, snapping into a crystalized sub-cult mode. Further snapping, some of it good, happened in the decades after 1986, but the big ones happened then.

    I cross the walls the best I can, and I am learning to do it better, and the walls the moderately proPFAL grads threw up in the late 80s have eroded and gates installed and some leveled.

    You folks probably spend very few hours per week in friendly useful fellowship and rich discussion with moderately proPFAL people who have the collaterals in their living room bookcase. There are obviously a lot of them on the net for sure, and a small bunch of known ones in the R.O.A., the read-only audience.

    I know a bunch of moderately proPFAL grads locally, and scattered all around the country a larger bunch.  From my perspective, the blessings from film&collaterals were massive, and the flesh failures of many who participated in distributing those blessings do not erase those printed books, nor the blessings received from them.

    The flesh failures NEED TO BE DEALT WITH better than the ways TWI-2 and TWI-3 dealt with them.  I am thankful that some TWI-4 people are willing to approach these topics with me in private. They are figuring out how to handle and sort out both the assets and the liabilities TWI-3 handed them a few years ago.

    So I see changes in how lots of grads out there are changing, both Innies and Outies.  By “out there” I mean outside this small active GSC fellowship of about ten active posters. Is anyone ready for a new phase in the recognized mission here?  Do you really want to go out, one by one, aimlessly maintaining an anti-idol for anti-worship for a dying audience? 

    Socks, are you out there reading this?  You have often been a voice of moderation here. Can you see a change toward constructive criticism here as being possible?

     

     

     

     

    I haven't been following this, so I just saw it while browsing notifications.  If you're asking - can I see a change happening here (at GSC) toward constructive criticism, I wouldn't know, I'm not active enough on the current GSC platform to have a valid opinion. If you're asking could it (actually) be possible for (a) change toward constructive criticism to happen on GSC - well, "all things are possible" with God so I'd suggest starting there. 

    I see the value of what I learned in PFAL. Specific to PFAL, over the last 50 plus years I've learned a great deal about the world of VPW's time and life and the theological soup he ladled from, if you will. I've learned a great deal in addition to that too. Call PFAL a very big data point in my timeline but it's one of many. I don't mean to diminish anyone's contribution to me from that era, but the contributions he did make to me are not going to be obvious to most and could even lack significance to others. I can always say I do appreciate that we were able to work together, for a time, on Way Productions and the outreach of the gospel through music. 

    I'd offer this - in a very broad way I think that GSC as a whole (historically, across all membership and activity levels) has always had a flow of constructive criticism. Not all of the contributions are equally constructive or in the same ways of course but it would be arguable that at some baseline the purpose of the running dialogue is, has been, constructive for those involved or observing. Put another way, if it was important and meaningful to them, it was important and meaningful and that could be useful, constructive, helpful to someone, regardless of what it added to anyone else purposes - or if it added anything at all. So while you or I have our own purposes, they may not be the same purposes as others and if it's not, that won't mean that others aren't accomplishing or at least trying to do their own work. 

     

  13. 21 hours ago, Twinky said:

    Assuming you mean, those who helped him come to terms with his own behavior and to realise how wicked he'd been, and how badly he had damaged so many lives - yes, I'd agree with you.  There's a standing invitation to him to come here and apologize. 
    Sadly, I don't see that happening any time.  Ever.  He probably thinks he was "picked on" in some way, is faultless, and "the adversary" is out to get him.  His biggest adversary is himself.  His ego, and that part of him that should be safely behind a zipper.

    But denigrating LCM doesn't help Bolshy.  I wonder what we can say, that will help Bolshevik?

    I'm not denigrating him. That means to criticize unfairly. 

    I'm not being unfair. I'm being clear, and for someone with the potential for verbosity that I have, pretty concise. 

    I'm also being honest, as far as I'm concerned because a person can't understand how and why the Way Inc. went the way it did without understanding how horribly bad he performed as President of the Way Inc. in both his personal and private lives. 

    I can say something that will help Bolshy - if he'd like help with a specific set of circumstance he has encountered he'll need to say what it is, clearly. Till then I just wish him the best with whatever it is or was that's bugging him because it's largely academic without specificity.  

    And he could do that here with a degree of anonymity, and it could be discussed openly. Just as Waydale allowed. And if others take exception or use the information for evil it'll be a repeat of what seems to have happened before, if I'm reading right. I guess. Hard to say. 

     

  14. 27 minutes ago, Twinky said:

    Bolshevik, you do know that LCM ranted continually, do you?  Man, could he rant and rave!  Anger management?  In spades!  Lunchtime "sharings," especially; Corps Nights (2 or 3 hour rant, usually about homosexuals; Sunday morning fellowships. :mad2:  Not so much Sunday night services (too public).  Occasionally he'd burst into one of our in-rez training sessions, yell his head off, and threaten to dismiss the entire group and send us all home. 

    If you were "especially" favored, you could earn your own personal face-melting for some trivial act or omission.  :CUSSING:Or if he wanted to keep you off balance, he'd look sorrowfully at you and speak very quietly.  All so reasonable, y'know.  Very manipulative.

    I recall one time he hauled me in, was surprisingly restrained, and told me he didn't know why God had so much patience with me when I made so many mistakes and was so disobedient.  (I think my sin there was to respond to a male on staff who'd spoken to me - not in my corps group, but someone I'd made casual friends with.)

    LCM had serious problems that he blamed everyone else for.  His wife was in a lesbian relationship with a woman who continually goaded LCM; Chris Geer was jabbing at him (and the other trustees), wanting LCM's place as Prez; and worst of all, he was bonking Corpswomen, some being other men's wives.

    Not surprising that he felt attacked on all sides and very vulnerable. 

    And not surprising that he took his anger out on those he perceived to be weaker than him, or in any way subservient to him.  Like teenagers, and in-rez Corps.  Like non-Corps staff members.  Like spouse Corps.  Like any other human being, actually.  That type of behavior is commonly known as "bullying."

    With his track record, if he didn't attack a person, there was probably something wrong or fishy about that person - or they were the kind of person who was able to bring in a lot of $$ into TWI coffers. 

    Bolshy one: consider his facemeltings as your badge of honor and personal integrity.

    "I recall one time he hauled me in, was surprisingly restrained, and told me he didn't know why God had so much patience with me when I made so many mistakes and was so disobedient. "

    VPW used to say things like that and Craig, all the Way bosses who mimicked them like lapdogs would say things like that -

    It's such an ungodly false and devilishly untrue statement.

    Christ is our intercessor, on the right hand of God and acting continually on our behalf as our intercessor. He's our Redeemer, the captain of our salvation. Grace and mercy are ours through the finished work of Christ. OF COURSE GOD IS PATIENT WITH US, ALL THE TIME. If anything we are thankful that God is patient and with us, every second, every day. 

    It's so painfully obvious how he valued his own ego and man made religious rules above the Word of God. He could rip and rail on others for breaking a rule but didn't blink an eye on his own adulterous behavior and LYING ABOUT IT EVERY DAY TO THE ENTIRE MINISTRY. 

    I think it strikes me as so sad because after all these years I'd be thrilled to hear he was doing well, that he'd been able to work with others who helped him.

    I had someone send me a link to some online videos of him teaching. He's at it somewhere, wherever, and that dark, gloomy voice of his has gotten even more foreboding. He still can't open his mouth without condemning everyone else and sounding like a prick. 

    Patience? He's certainly benefitting from it himself. 

     

  15. 19 hours ago, Rocky said:

    I was NOT at all disagreeing with any of your points/post. There is only one person on this thread thus far misunderstanding the sociological role of Waydale... and it's certainly not you. I edited the post in question to clarify I was referring to Bolshevik, not you. :beer:

    Hi There! Thanks, I get it now. 


     

    • Upvote 1
  16. 55 minutes ago, Rocky said:

    And IMO, they had every right to tell their stories.

    I was able to visit my grandchildren yesterday. My grandson used the expression, "next level technology." Well, P... A.... used what was, a couple of decades ago, next level technology. A massive amount of good happened as a result of what he did with that technology. I'd be surprised if he had you and what happened to you in mind at all when he started Waydale.

    Of course they did, I thought I made that clear. 

    I'm not sure what you're saying happened to me, and being surprised, etc? I pretty much accepted Waydale, per WYSIWYG. Paul Allen never promised anything to anyone, but in doing what he did with Waydale he gave the ex Way universe a grand gift. As I said, IMO it was unprecedented and as you point out, the technology was at a perfect point to use it as he did. It was really a kind of tipping point now that we can look back. 

    Waydale allowed for "the other" or perhaps arguably "another" side of the story to be told. 

    Unfortunately that story was filled with a lot of bad things. People do bad things so if that reflected badly on others or closed one door while opening another, in any sense, it's the Way's fault, Martindale's fault for being such a prideful man, ego led and with all the intelligence of a bag of rocks and at his worst a heart of darkness lurking in his twisted machinations. The endless hours of hate filled spew he shoved down the staff and Corps' throats every lunch time and evening meeting created an environment of fear and defeat. They were so internalized as his reign of terror progressed I wouldn't take any negative possibilities off the table. And Allen gave those people and those before them a place for their voice to be heard. Finally. For better or worse, right or wrong, good or bad. The light was on. 

    I suspect we agree in whole or part, maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part, if so don't worry about it, I won't. I may not be back for a bit but I did feel compelled to chime in on this topic as I know we were part of the Waydale experience. 

    PEACE! n LOVE!

     

  17. Waydale - nothing's ever perfect and we all know that. Waydale had a lot of twists and turns in it's tenure. I would agree in part that as a result of 100's, 1000's of people coming together to discuss their issues, problems, challenges and complaints about the Way and it's activities over many many years in what was unprecedented freedom of discussion there could be negative impacts on some people, in and out. Waydale had no ability to vette or qualify information posted and I myself know of some things that were untrue and heresay and I did have my own debates about things but...the purpose was to give a platform for people to write, to "speak" freely. This did lead to some of the most powerful and meaningful words I've ever read anywhere, about anything. 

    Waydale was a game changer in the "ex Way" community, for those who had left or been expelled. It wasn't the first online community that dealt specifically with the Way - Trancenet had an ex Way community formed before it and I believe there were other small newsgroup discussions going on, at last I'd seen some, but Waydale was uniquely successful in attracting oldies and newbies alike and become a magnet reconnecting people who hadn't seen or talked to each other for years. 

    For decades the greater community of those who had left or been kicked out of the Way for whatever reasons had never really been brought together into one place to tell their stories. Enter Paul Allen. He built a professional looking website front end and loaded up the discussion forum using EZ Board. You could register and participate anonymously so there were no fear tactics like the Way had used to smear and destroy reputations of people that disagreed with them. The spark caught and it grew and lit up, literally. 

    Allen's strategy was very smart - he was legit and had his own life on the table with the lawsuit he had filed. He was also pretty stand up about the whole thing in that he didn't puke all over the internet with rants and raves or the kind of profane blathering that Martindale was known for and proud of. He had a case and he made it and invited others to share their own stories. He wasn't overly complicated either, it was pretty easy to understand where he was coming from. 

    There were no guarantees that it would grow but it did. And it gave voice to a group of people who were now able to say what they had experienced, good or bad, and discuss and debate all of it with anyone to any extent they wished. 

    There was a good share of flotsam and jetsam too but - and this was very new to ex Wayfers - it was possible to ask, question, challenge, and do it all in the "open" and each person could draw their own conclusions. It could get nasty, weird, childish, trite, even ignorant. 

    At first I was a little sketchy about some of the stuff I read, it seemed pretty hateful. Then it sank in - for years the Way had sh it on anyone it wanted to and then told them - "taught" them from the Word - that they were supposed to just accept it and deal with it and "God would still bless them" for "following the Man of God", and did that over and over and over....uh, hell yes, there's going to be some heat coming back off them. 

     I once had someone message me that "Paul Allen is off the Word! He shouldn't be doing a lawsuit, going outside the Church, he should settle this inside, with the leadership and believers!"

    I don't know how long I laughed after reading that but I did respond by asking them "And who do you think he could trust to honestly settle the matter? Craig?"......I never got an answer that I remember but uh, no. And yes, we don't want to be litigious over every hang nail but when it's serious and you're dealing with a group like the Way that makes it's own rules, answers to no external authority and refuses to deal with it unless drug into court, yeah, you use the courts. 

    I wish you the best Bolshevik and a good life in this one and the next. You deserve it. We all do. 

  18. I listened to and spot checked some of his recording of 3-12-22. I don't know who his audience is or who he thinks he's talking to but apparently he's going to continue lecturing to his own navel if that's what it comes to.  

    He still spends most of his time criticizing everyone else, others "distortions" and skewed logic. By the time he gets to talking about how "twisted" it is I can hear him snarling. I wonder if he still has 2 or 3 women on the side he screws, and if they think they're doing some great service to God when they bend over? What a sad sorry bag of gas.

    I pray for him but I wouldn't walk across the street to hear his personal regurgitations of PFAL. 

    Steer clear! 

    PEACE homies! 

    • Like 1
    • Upvote 1
  19. 6 hours ago, T-Bone said:

    that's a yes and no for me. I get that, sort of, in a way” I believe your tentative answer here as well as some of the rest of your post seems to support my point. 


    I said “Having a rigid mindset is far worse than being wrong” because any system – or system of thought :rolleyes:   - that is unrepairable or unresponsive or inflexible regarding a fault condition, malfunction, sensory input warning, faulty design, system error, faulty programming, faulty data, sabotage, etc., then it would be IMPOSSIBLE to correct the problem. 


    Now depending on the system or system of thought   :rolleyes:  - that could be mission-critical if the failure or disruption in the normal operation may result in a total failure of the mission. 


    Problem 1:
    In the 1995 docudrama film     Apollo 13    dramatizes the aborted 1970 Apollo 13 lunar mission, America's fifth crewed MISSION TO THE MOON, which was INTENDED to be the third to land. But an on-board explosion deprives their spacecraft of much of its oxygen supply and electrical power, which forces NASA's flight controllers to abort the Moon landing and REDFINES THE MISSION into one of seeking scientific and mechanical solutions to get the three astronauts home safely. I loved this movie! Oddly enough even though I knew how it would end – it was still a nail-biter of a thriller to get caught up in how they were going to fix the problem. 


    Now what if there was no flexibility in the mission? What if NASA said “sorry, guys but your mission was to land on the moon – looks like you all bought a one-way ticket”. What if the spacecraft design was so inflexible or unadaptable that the crew could not make a vital course correction to head back to earth by manually igniting the Lunar Module's engine? 

    Now a system of thought – our belief system does have some flexibility. Our beliefs help us make sense of the world. From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. Our beliefs tell us who we think we are, mark our place in the world and are essentially an ongoing personal narrative that anchors us to the here and now.

    No one is perfect – no one knows everything. How mission-critical is it if you have some nonsense in your belief system? What would be the consequences? That depends on the mission and the kind of nonsense. What if there was no way to modify, edit or delete the nonsense portion of your belief system? 

    Problem 2:
    Who still thinks there is a “law of believing” that “works for saint and sinner alike” (no, I’m not talking about The Force of Star Wars)? What If Joe PFAL-grad decides to throw himself off the Empire State Building because he thinks he can fly like a bird. He believes God would have to change all the laws of the universe not to accommodate his believing. If flying like a bird is mission-critical how bad would the consequences be if he does jump off the building?


    What is the difference between problem 1 and problem 2?

    Problem 1 is solved by scientific truth. Problem 2  remains unsolved – because it disregards scientific truth (like the law of gravity) and foolishly substitutes a supposed metaphysical truth (the law of believing); not only is problem 2 unsolved but has a tragic end – Joe is splat on the ground – but fortunately for TWI he subscribed to The Way Magazine and always followed suggestions like the occasional reminder in the magazine “remember The Way in your will”… * don’t forget to view the DVD bonus feature at the end of the post.


    Well, I no longer subscribe to that law of believing nonsense that wierwille taught in PFAL. I used to think it was true. Fortunately, I am able to modify, edit or delete something in my belief system if it seems to be nonsense. 

    Scientific truth gives us no criteria for metaphysical truth. Therefore, what is needed is another definition of truth for the metaphysical realm. In reading up on philosophy, I lean toward one theory of what truth is – it’s called    the correspondence theory of truth “In metaphysics and philosophy of language, the correspondence theory of truth states that the truth or falsity of a statement is determined only by how it relates to the world and whether it accurately describes (i.e., corresponds with) that world. Correspondence theories claim that true beliefs and true statements correspond to the actual state of affairs. This type of theory attempts to posit a relationship between thoughts or statements on one hand, and things or facts on the other.” (def. from Wikipedia). The fundamentalism in wierwille's nonsense doctrine does not correspond to how the real-world works. What seems to work for me in the real-world is loving God and loving my neighbor – and that means treating my neighbor like I would like to be treated. 


    In my humble opinion believing in "the law of believing" is a misplaced faith – I’ve heard it said many times in TWI that “we have to believe in our believing”. I have no problem with the simple faith mentioned in the Bible – a faith that has complete trust in God. And God should be the object of our faith - rather than whatever it is that I’m “believing for” . I think true faith is a trust in God – that He is sovereign and hears our prayers – and answers them as He sees fit – and maybe not always as we expect.  Ephesians 3:20   should relieve us of any concerns that God is limited by our believing – for he is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ask or think.

    = = = = = = =
    *DVD bonus feature:    Medieval Barber Theodoric of York
     

    No offense, but we're not taking about the same thing. I don't have the energy to sort it out. I'm sure your life will continue to go well, so no worries, mine will too. Thanks for the time. 

  20. 1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

    Having a rigid mindset is far worse than being wrong.

    Hmmmm, that's a yes and no for me. I get that, sort of, in a way. 

    It would be true in the process of learning, but not in knowing. There are things I want to be right about and entertaining alternatives won't serve my need. Once I know something and what I know is right as best I can see, that's good enough for me. 

    In religion it gets kicked around because there's an assumption that no one knows "for sure" and even since we have so many people that believe differently but swear they know for sure it all goes to prove that no one knows for sure, so there's a perceived value to staying open minded, and willing to change - "after all", etc. 

    Even within one's own beliefs there can be a means by which their source material can correct them when they get off target. 

    But the process of learning has an end goal which is to know something. I might say I'll never know it all or will always be learning and willing to consider alternatives, but I would never do that without serious consideration, as far as the basic things "I know". 

    I find in my experience, those who feel that way, even if they differ, allow for that rigidity - BECAUSE they themselves know what they know and learn to honor that state of being in others, as much as they allow it for themselves. 

    There's only conflict when it comes to societal concerns, where it crosses over into others lives. Otherwise, outside of the impetus to help others if I can, why would I care what someone else "believes" if it has no affect on me or if the affect is in any way a good one, for me....? I don't want to correct others "on principle", just for the fun of it. Put it this way - My God tells me to help others in active, individual ways and part of that is to tell them about Jesus Christ. I want others to share what I have and have the future I believe I have, because I believe it's a good one that allows them to find their own space and shape their own lives with the Creator, like I have, and maybe even in ways they can in turn share with me, to my own benefit...so hey! it's a win win. Or not, if someone doesn't I have to accept that. 

    In America today we have trouble living that way, I know it can be a challenge for me at times and others too it seems, but I do think the earliest conception of our governance was trying to avoid a social system that won't allow you to rise up or out of your "place", but to create a new opportunity to carve out a space for individual freedoms. Course that didn't apply to slaves but - yeah, it was a start. I am thankful to God for the lives of those upon whom this great vision of a country was built yet who were not allowed to participate in it's promise, who died in a foreign land and under a different sky than they'd been born to - I can't imagine what despair must have filled their hearts in the acceptance they lived in that allowed them to survive another day - for what? Talk about having hope.  

    Here I am today, I can only be the me I am and do what I can. And there are some things I am very rigid about, and that I don't believe I'm wrong about and that I won't change my mind about, barring a big smack on the head I can't miss. If I stand before a God someday who tells me I was wrong, what will I have to say other than hey, I thought that's what You meant, I'm glad to change my mind if I can still get on the boat going out. If that somehow condemns me for eternity, so be it. I can't help but think there will be a level of satisfaction just knowing - finally, for sure - the truth. In the meantime, I'm pretty tenacious about my beliefs. 

    If not sooner, see you there! 

     

  21. On 11/6/2021 at 3:12 PM, penworks said:

    Plenty of former Wafers know that there "allegedly" were women in the early years of the "ministry" and then ones in The Way Corps who were Wierwille's "girls." He seduced them. One wrote her story about that in, Losing The Way. Others have told me themselves. This is not a new revelation on GSC.

    Some of them were pretty good at hiding it too and lying about it. Not Kris, specifically but there are others who today want to holler back to the hooting' an' tootin' they did then and act as if they didn't get anything in return - I'm not one to name names of people that could be harmed by it and I don't act where I don't have or want permission to - but - the fact is there were both men and women who were as opportunistic as VPW - and if you got caught in their web of bull sh it they were good at hanging you out to dry behind their curtain of deceit. But some of those that came and went and some who stayed got exactly what they wanted out of it. 


    I came into the Way Corps and working there with a past I was trying to put behind me and grow out of. People often mistook that for innocence. I won't pretend I was some kind of a bad bad man in my day but I'd been around the block already more than once. I had met people like Del D before any of us were ever exposed to PFAL, and I was happy to give a start over to anyone who wanted it - and after a few years post PFAL I wanted to put certain things behind me - I was far from being perfect but I just wanted to build on certain things and it didn't include extra marital sex and the use of drugs, like pot and heavy drinking.

    Which made me a "square" to some people, and not to be trusted. 

    Fukk them. In their graves or wherever they're swilling their bs today - just fukk that and them, twice over. Manipulators who lied and hid what they were doing. No wonder VPW liked them, he knew kindred souls when he saw them. You can use people to your own advantage that are that stupid. 

    • Upvote 1
  22. 11 hours ago, skyrider said:

     

    Yep......that is a *kind* assessment.

    After 23 years of post-twi acknowledging how abusive, exploitive, dysfunctional and pathetic The Way International was and is ...... there is no way that I can use euphemisms regarding Wierwille's narcissism and pathologies to deceive others.  The Way International was/is a cult, because wierwille was a lazy, plagiarist, predator and profiteer.  The whole marketing scheme was "get butts in chairs for classes and big events and fleece their money thru guilt."  Since PFAL '77..... big event after big event as the cult leader, wierwille, pontificates and rehashes B.G. Leonard's (and Bullinger's) material.

    Wierwille was a fraudster.  He talked big, but behinds the scenes the con was in full gear.  Enablers stocked his motor coach with Drambuie and his aides, bodyguards, became procurers inviting select young corps girls to wierwille's lair, motor coach.  Sick, twisted, destructive evil.

    So, no.....I have NO euphemisms for wierwille's "leadership and ministry."

    ````

    ````

    At this stage of the game......I assert that twi's directors and splinter group leaders RIDE THE COATTAILS OF WIERWILLE, because it's the *only game* that gives them access to gullible pfal-followers.  In a galaxy far, far away......a generation of youth became mesmerized with a cult of personality.  Like a fish caught on a line, the "believer" was reeled into the net.  There was subliminal messaging throughout pfal...... once you hear "the Word" (wierwille's 33-hrs of pfal rehashing), DO NOT ALLOW anyone to ever talk you out of it.  No matter that wierwille couldn't walk the spiritual walk..... but instead smoked like a chimney, a drunkard, a striker, a bully, kept pornography, a serial plagiarist and sexual predator.

    Some people succumb to spiritual abuse and are institutionalized.

    Some people see the ruse and break those chains to gain freedom.

     

    .

     

    Where do "euphemisms" come into this, not clear on what you mean by that. 

    If it was when I wrote "I hear news of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would."...

    I meant what I said. I think the factual truth is communicated completely in that phrase of "it sounds about right". It does, to me. There are a vast number of people who over the years have come through the Way and who deserve a civil engagement if possible. That's the way I live. I do talk to people about those years and events - (like most of the stuff you don't think the "young bucks" of an earlier era knew, I knew because VPW talked about many of those things, he talked quite a bit about those things when he came out to California the first couple times. I was close to Jim Doop who I spoke with a lot about what he was doing with the Way) - and when I do I inform my discussions today with that kind of information and insight. Others may disagree. Fine. I speak first for what I know first hand and try to be careful about what I sift through of everything else.

    Now, while I do care about the people, I don't have a dog in the game there, no relatives or associates still involved in the Way in any capacity and if anyone there thinks badly of me, fine, I don't care about that - it just proves their lack of intelligence, far as I'm concerned. Anyone still there or involved with them counters and negates the weight and value of their opinion by that very involvement so it's kind of a wash - why would I get too concerned about the opinion of people I don't think highly of? Doesn't make sense. I know some people who are, they're happy and I respect their decision in certain cases because I think for  them it provides a level of support they benefit from. And they know that while my resources are limited, they're only a call away from help if they needed it - something I don't extend to everyone or lightly when I do because I mean it. 

    Anyway, luceat lux tua!

  23. On 12/3/2021 at 2:50 PM, johnj said:

    It seems TWI is trying to revive the “gory glory years.” It plans to revive “the Rock” as “Young Adult Rock” Aug 12-14, 2022. They call it a “Christian music festival” for Foundational class grads ages 18-35. A few days after it, TWI plans to send out  Way “Ambassadors.” The “Ambassadors of The Way Outreach Program” will replace both the original WOW and the Way Disciples outreach program, which sends an anemic 4 teams (approx.) per term/ year. They will serve Aug 21 to June 4, 2023.  That’s a 9.5 month term vs. the 6 month disciple and 12 month WOW terms. They hope to have Ambassadors in 12 countries in which there are active Way Corps. How many people will they actually get? What do they mean by "Christian music"?

     

     

    No idea, far as answers. It's been pete and repeat there since Day One, with some occasional bright lights surfacing. 

    A lot of what the Way did with VPW's direction was to adopt and re label and re design existing programs and systems. He'd been exposed to the liberal Protestant meta physical teachings and efforts by Glen Clark, Mosley, Daily and others, the "Ashrams", all of that. He talked a lot about that in the 60's and early 70's that I heard from him. He didn't really connect the "Jesus People" movement on the West Coast to that, in a practical way though, he never spoke of the doctrinal or theological underpinnings, at least that I heard. Despite wanting to be a Big Thinker he lacked a methodology to synthesize ideas, he was a tad clumsy in that regard and more inclined to assemble, copy and rename. 

    So where there were Glenn Clark and his "Camp Farthest Out" and retreats, VPW called his getaways "Advances" which I think was a name already getting used, I forget who else might have been using it - "renewal" was a favored term too, nothing wrong with any of them I guess but my point  is that VPW tended to do pretty much what others had or were doing and he just renamed them and made them out to be his own ideas. 

    The sense of ownership that comes with things we come up with and work to accomplish that may not be actually "new" aside, it seemed he knew exactly what he was doing in that regard. 

    So - what the Way is doing by building loosely on their own past and using that is probably a combination of a sense of pursuing a thread of godliness in their past and doing what they know how to do. Even at my kindest I'd have to say the Way was never led by the brightest bulbs. Anyone with education, talent and motivation was expected to put on the nametag and move the program he wanted to put in place. Anyone with education, talent and motivation either didn't stay or was booted out at some point, leaving the Most Average of the Average to mind the store. Others had the mindset of survival so they kept on for the 3 hots and the cot. 

    I hear news of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would. 

     

    • Upvote 1
  24. 1 hour ago, Allan said:

    "Myocarditis has become the 'new Boogey man" - THAT COMMENT is terribly immature, misinformed and downright heartless !!!!!Speaking of myocarditis...that is EXACTLY the reason Germany has STOPPED giving Moderna to under 30 year olds...but that is o.k. isn't it because we're still discovering mid to long term effects...aren't we?...what was it you said ? "the vaccines have been put under rigorous testing and have been proven safe ? Tell that to the kids who now have myocarditis and pericarditis that would have grown up otherwise healthy IF they had not had the covid jab !
    OMG, hope Rockys grandkids that he gleefully congratulated didn't get the Moderna !!


    Germany recommends only Biontech/Pfizer vaccine for under-30s | Reuters

    Speaking of which - 9 years ago Pericarditis got me into Emergency, where I then had a "cardiac event" on the table where they were testing me. At the time I just knew I had an increasing feeling like a knife was being churned in my chest and it was during them trying to diagnose the pain when the heart attack occurred and they discovered I had 3 badly clogged arteries including one that was pretty much shut down to a trickle I guess. Par for the course - a triple bypass was planned.

    Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle, Peri-c is inflammation of the outer lining of the heart. Both have been seen in children, more young males that others, after the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccines. Symptoms can occur a few days after the vaccination and with treatment recovery is full and within a few days. Add "mileage may vary" to that, I'm sure. 

    This is of course a huge issue but it doesn't appear to be widespread at all. Now - I'm not a young male but even at my age and history, there's a concern - fortunately I didn't get any actual heart muscle damage when I had my infection and "event", and my heart even at 62 held up very well. The advice to me for Moderna's 2 dose and boosters has been I'm still in a very low risk group so the vaccine is worth it. Close monitoring of health after is important though, and I've done fine and nothing like heart-chest pain symptoms occurred. (and once you've been through it you know the difference between it and "heartburn". 

    I wouldn't advise a child to NOT get the vaccinations due to that risk specifically. Both my grandchildren have tested positive after exposures and had no demonstrable symptoms. They haven't been vaccinated yet, but likely will be at some point, if all these mandates continue. (for the record I'm "pro choice", and have exercised my choice to be vaccinated and get the booster - but I'm not in a user group that is as active in public circles as a lot of the population but I can understand the concerns there on all sides, I think) On average as previously stated, I suggest humans currently residing on the planet Earth consider vaccinations. 

    A bigger issue in all this comes to mind too - overall health care and access to it. I have immediate access to a health care system, doctors, nurses, medical advice, pharmacies, etc. I may not "get in" immediately or faster than anyone else but I have coverage that I can use and it covers what I need. I also have had access to a low impacted supply chain so scheduling vac's and getting in has been easy compared to some places.

    Millions aren't and don't though - the so called "free" vaccinations aren't really, and there's little "free" wrap around health care to monitor and take care of adverse side affects or issues in case someone DOES have an issue and doesn't have any health plan....We like to describe ourselves as the wealthiest, most industrious and creative nation in history. There is a basic level of health care that we can extend to citizens here and I'd be willing to extend that in emergency services to those who are here illegally, and being processed through our system of citizenship whether going in or out. 

    Simply put, the severely ill and injured are going to end up in our emergency room/clinic system anyway - some provision of preventive and general health care and education would seem to be in everyone's interests. (I know there are a lot of exceptions, open holes to abuse and costs to doing any of that, I just don't want to lead with exceptions, I'd rather plan for a majority) 

     


     

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