socks

Y'know, in terms of symbols, the cross is a good one. Like the biblical references to the cross, it speaks to the whole of the event of the crucifixion itself, as well as what Christians believe it means. Even though it's so commonplace, it begs the question, "what's that mean?" For a Christian, it's more than a 10 word answer.

The dove too, is a good symbol. I've seen some neat little thingies that are images of the cross, with a dove on the top or arm, about to take flight.

And the tomb, with the cover/stone rolled away to the side is a powerful image. Death, and it's place, overcome.

As Coolwaters said, the giving of oneself for a reason isn't unique to Jesus. "Greater love hath no man" indeed than to give all for a reason and many do so in life and in death. From the standpoint of the biblical writers, it was the series of events of his life, death and resurrection that came full circle on the day of Pentecost.

One of the coolest pictures I saw was in an ad for a poster, several years back. It was of a young girl, littly tyke, and she's standing there looking up at someone, Jesus, with a worried look on her face as she holds his open hand showing the huge scar on the palm. In the caption she's saying "What happened to your hand?"

It's very poignant, especially when you consider what his answer to that situation might have been.

It's a state of mind, isn't it? An attitude of true gratitude. We have redemption in Christ, but that redemption isn't fully realized yet with this "token" we have today, but we have this sacrifice for sin in Jesus's death and the wholeness that it allows today and in the future. In the future, we "know as we are known". Today, the humanity of our spirituality is to our benefit when we live in the midst of this "saving grace."

Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,

If we travel by my dragonfly....

(Jimi)

Thanks Ex. Glad you liked it. :)-->

Raf, I had a long post all ready to go and reread the last page and danged if you didn't say the same thing. *delete*.

It's really an "action speaks louder than words" thing for me when we get down to cases.

Unfortunately, I see little connection between the "cross of Christ", the miracle of salvation and the lifestyle he lived of anger, rebelliousness and adultery. When I was young, it attracted me, and perhaps for the wrong reasons. As I matured, I realized we ain't gettin' nowhere like this.

The fact that so many ministers, so called, have similar problems doesn't lead me to believe that it has to be that way, just that the field of endeavor has both weeds and flowers.

Evan, a little "topic creep" music please...!

Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,

If we travel by my dragonfly....

(Jimi)

Cool discussion. Oldiesman, that's a great quote from Kenyon, thanks. Ex, if I'm reading all this right, it really does illustrate exactly what you're saying, which is rippling out across my brain cells in SUCH a nice way.

I can see it as two sides of the same coin, one side being what Christ actually did for us and the other side our growth and maturity in appreciating and understanding it. The more we are able to dwell upon, embrace and realize what He did and who He was, the more we are able to be what God intended us to be through Christ. The way the story goes, our redemption wasn't something *snapped* in to existence by a willful god with idle time on his hands. It was crafted by our creator, with purpose and meaning.

Redemption by definition came at a cost. We can't skip over the cost to focus on the "blessings" that result from it or we risk losing the lessons of life it expresses - like ultimate total giving that is expressed regardless of the return to oneself.

I tried to describe this to my son once by telling him, someday years and years from now, you're going to have a son or daughter and you're going to have to do something for them that's going to be hard and that may even hurt you personally to do. But you're going to do it anyway because you love them and you know they need you to do it for them. When you do, remember me and remember that anything I ever did for you was nothing compared to knowing that someday you'd have a son or daughter and when you looked in their eyes you'd remember me and see me and our life in them. And you'll know that our love will be forever.

Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,

If we travel by my dragonfly....

(Jimi)

Got one today. :)--> Got an "atta boy" for my blood pressure, 117/74. It's been down for the last couple years, was higher a few years ago.

I've also been poking around with vitamins. I'm taking a multi-vitamin, some extra C and E, with an Omega 3 and Alpha Lipoic acid supplement to make it all go round better, plus more veggies. This isn't in response to the flu season specifically, just trying to get my overall health rolling in the right direction this winter. A healthy immune system is the best defense.

It's so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,

If we travel by my dragonfly....

(jimi)

Nice John! I've been pricing the HD tv's for a few years and they've dropped in price alright, still a tad pricey for me. I don't see watching movies on a pc monitor either, although I just got our first flat screen monitor from Dell, 21" and I really like the reduced space on my desk.

Comcast has some plans for moving in to multi services on their cable service. Might play into it hey?

We've got cable internet, Zix. Watchoo mean? :D--> Just tested my connection speed online, I'm at 2586 kbs, what's that, 2.5 megabits per? Normal connection speed is 2.3 throughout the day. I'm diggin' it!

She's the wave, She turns the tide, She sees the man inside the child,

it's alright, it's alright, alright, She moves in mysterious ways....

(U2)

my first double post!

[This message was edited by socks on November 20, 2003 at 2:40.]

Hey Ralph, you need some software to "optimize" the image, which will reduce it's size. Here's a LINK to some tutorials that talk about it, as well as some other good information.

If you have Windows XP, there's an optimization feature when you click on the file in it's folder, right click and select the email option and then look at the options for the image to reduce it. Send it to yourself and voila, you've got an optimized image. That might get you closer to the size.

PhotoShop is a great program for doing this also, it's what I use, made by Adobe.

JASC makes PaintShot Pro, which you can download free and use for a month and it's got features for this. It can also be bought on Amazon.com for 59 bucks, and it's a very good program with lots of cool things.

First off you first want to crop the image, cutting out anything you don't need in it. That gets rid of unnecessary information that contributes to file size.

Secondly, select an image size appropriate for what you're going to use it for...for the web, if it was a portrait vertical photo say, maybe a height of 150 would be right for an image of a face in a thread, it's what I'd choose anyway or close to it. In most programs, you can select an option for the correct horizontal size to be automatically matched to the height you select. Just play with it till it looks right...150 height by 125 width might be okay, say.

Then select the optimization features. jpg's compress themselves. Once you save it you can see what size it is. Then work from there. Optimization can select common colors, get rid of some and let you look at it to see if the actual quality's being affected.

Or send it to me, if you want. I'll do it for you and send it back. Just let me know what's supposed to stay in and what can be cropped out, if anything. Takes a couple minutes. :)-->

soques@hotmail.com

She's the wave, She turns the tide, She sees the man inside the child,

it's alright, it's alright, alright, She moves in mysterious ways....

(U2)

Not hard for you, maybe! :)--> I hear ya though.

I'm at a point where it's like a train wreck about to happen. Long as I keep moving it's okay! Getting in and out is a challenge.

I'm doing this on guitar, and I've got one little "diddly dip" thing I can use, and another like it, and that's about it. The JP's helped me get past the comfort thing, for some reason finger picks always felt like I had weights on.

She's the wave, She turns the tide, She sees the man inside the child,

it's alright, it's alright, alright, She moves in mysterious ways....

(U2)

Hey Zix, what kind of finger picks are you using? A friend of mine that plays sent me some John Pearse, thumb and 3 fingers and I worked with them for awhile to learn a couple rolls. I'm not that good at it. Liked the John Pearse's though.

She's the wave, She turns the tide, She sees the man inside the child,

it's alright, it's alright, alright, She moves in mysterious ways....

(U2)

Well, greetings from de vino country, up Sonoma county way. Glad to hear the fires are under control. My wife's down So Cal way last week and this, came back over the weekend. We're praying for everyone there.

Kit - Tom Boone, red hair, deep voice? I haven't seen him in years, but if it's the same guy, he was a good one. Don't know his whereabouts, no help there.

practice makes perfect

sense when it comes to love...

>Michael Franks

Cool Mark. Early 70's California stuff might have been dealing with the incorporation of the Way West into the Way Int'l. Although there were no hard assets to speak of (that I knew of) the big asset of interest to the Way Nash was the ABS coming in, and what was done with it. 2 scenarios - 1, California remains independent, collects ABS and uses it at it's own discretion and sends what it wants on to New Knoxville. 2, All ABS goes directly to New Knoxville and they send back a part to the state to support salaries, rents, expenses, etc. In 1 California is it's own boss. In 2, N.K is and California personnel become basically employees. You know the drill on that period.

I think a plan such as you describe would have been wise, too. Something that would have allowed for the fact that both of them knew that someday they'd be turning it over to other people and that there should be an opportunity to review how it was being used, as well as by whom. Today these goombah's can live off the past comfortably and do nothing with it beyond fulfill the past vision of it as a "place where the Word will live". How to do that today is something they should consider.

They make a big deal about their tax exempt status too, but if I remember right, it's an educational exemption, not a religious one. When the Way was running two corp's at once, plus camps and classes year round onsite plus developing classes yearly I could see that as legit. Now it seems like much ado over next to nothing. They could easily do with a smaller allocation of resources to their current activities and possibly do something worthwhile with the land. Giving a portion of it back to the family members might sound part dementia/part fantasy, but given the way things have rolled out over the last 15 years or so, it would be a reasonable recognition of all interests. Again, they'd have nothing if the original family members hadn't developed it and supported it.

To any Way-Boss Guys or Gals reading this, if you are, that idea's a freebie. Feel free to use it, no credit necessary.

practice makes perfect

sense when it comes to love...

>Michael Franks

[This message was edited by socks on October 29, 2003 at 0:02.]

Hey Mark, greets, maybe we can clarify a point you mentioned on the Weirwille property being deeded to the Way. It was deeded over to the Way in 1957 if memory serves. When their father died in 1956, there were two family farms that were divided into inheritances in the will. One of the farms went to two sisters. The 147 acre farm we all know as "The Way International" was left to four Weirwille's, Reuben, Harry, Victor and a nephew Charles. They had it appraised and Reuben and Charles both cashed out. Harry and Victor at that time then took their 1/4's and Reuben and Charle's parts and deeded it to the Way in 1957.

VPW resigned his church pastorage in 1957 then lived in Van Wert. By that time "The Way" owned the property but they didn't move in for about 4 years while they got the property ready.

practice makes perfect

sense when it comes to love...

>Michael Franks

Rocky: :)-->

Well, more information would be nice, Garth. Indeed! I'm all E-ars. (e=electronic)

I agree pretty much with all angles of the above. We're reading words on the internet. If I was going to be impartial, I'd say J.P.'s message was, they aren't telling the truth. I'd say Harve's message is yes we are.

One of Platig's points is that if J.P. wants to take over, he's welcome to join in. He's making it sound - to me - like if JP had a problem, he should have voiced it earlier and in fact is still welcome to, and he'll be listened to.

I smell smoke too, LZ. Based on past experience, I know Harve's a guy who considers being "valiant for the truth" talking himself in to believing whatever he's told, with a heaping dish of rationalization to make it go down easier. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give him a -1 on the Trust Meter. If I were involved with him in any way, I'd ALWAYS assume I need verification on anything he'd say, even if it was that the sun was out at 10:00 a.m. because he might really mean that it's cloudy and raining like cats and dogs but the sun is out "in his heart".

JP I'd always assume was being honest and at the very least caring and well meaning because I never knew him to be any other way. People change, and it's hard to tell with this but in either case that's my view.

All this stuff about Wanda being at the wheel is a tad smokey too. It just seems odd that a Weirwille-by-marriage is the only person with close enough contact to Mrs. W. to be in a position to direct these affairs. I'm not automatically discounting her intent, but isn't that caused by the fact that JP isn't an active member of this current configuration of the Way that he isn't allowed to have regular, normal contact with her as you would expect children to have with their mother? Able to come and go as they'd please, drop in, visit, etc. ?

Actually, if it were me, I'd have ripped a hole through that place a long time ago, if it was my mother, but even saying that I know it's easier said than done. And it's why I stay away from the place and the people. No good will come from personal contact with disease.

And I second that, Radar! Let the sun shine in on the business of the Way!

practice makes perfect

sense when it comes to love...

Michael Franks

George, maybe it's becaue Mrs. W. couldn't "work" for the Way anymore. Which begs the question, just what does an 8 hour day of Harvey's "work" consist of? What do ANY of them do for "work"?

I've been thinking of a quote of Frank Zappa's lately, and reading H.P.'s letter brought it back again. Zappa was being interviewed years ago in Musician magazine, I think it was. In case anyone's not familiar with him, he was a musician, guitarist, composer and depending on who you read he was a hack, a genius, a tad eccentric, whatever...figure anyone who names his kids Dweezil, Amhet and Moon Unit has some issues at the very least. Anyway...he always had some interesting things to say about the music industry.

The interviewer was asking him about his tendency to be negative about the music industry as a whole, and he asked Zappa if he deliberately tried to sand bag his own efforts by knocking it all the time. Zappa answered "It's not my job to kiss their a$$".

Next question was: "Don't you think you've grown more cynical over the years?"

Answer: "No, I just keep getting more evidence to back up my original cynicism". Classic.

practice makes perfect

sense when it comes to love...

(Michael Franks)

Indeed it is, Paw. Next there'll be snow in hell. It seems a massive case of the Worm Turning, and I don't mean that to be impolite, but after so many years of stony, self-righteous silence, apparently this issue of Mrs. W. is getting under their skin. Massive numbers of unsatisified members leaving, all the events of the last 15-20 years etc. etc. etc....for years and nothing, nada, and then this brings out a public rebuttal. Interesting.

practice makes perfect

sense when it comes to love...

:)--> Mano a .... Femano? We have two cats, Donald the guy cat and Topo Gigio, the girl cat. Donald's all guy, so much so that after his teen years nearly led to his early demise through much late night carousing and carrying on we had to have him, uh, that thing, the thing they do to guy cats and dogs that I can't say to uh, to do that to them. I resisted it, but it was the right thing to do. (I think he's forgiven my reluctant complicity)

Now Donald's slowed down a tad and carries himself with the quite dignity of both a survivor and an experienced cat around town. He's 8 years old and still spry. He plays with birds, parks himself wherever he feels like it and has become the neighborhood mascot. I've got neighbors who don't know my name, but they know Donald, the big orange tabby that all the kids pet and play with and that hangs out on the lawn with the birds.

Topo the girl cat is about 4 and walks around deceptively slow, cuddly and loves to be petted but only by us, she doesn't like the kids messing with her. She's a tortoise shell cat with kind of short hair. Unlike Donald she hangs out all winter, eats and gets fat, then works it off in the spring hunting stuff.

She'll walk in the house and if we even make eye contact she lays down and spreads her legs and wiggles around just waiting to be petted and rubbed and tickled. She's cute. She also lays in wait for literally hours on end to pounce on Donald's bird buds if she can and will bring in all kinds of mice, birds and you name it that she's hunted and killed. I've seen her come up the driveway with a bird in her mouth and lay it down near Donald and he'll look at her like, "YOU SAVAGE! That's Bob!!!!!" Seriously, he sort of backs off as if he's freaked out a little. So Topo's the hunter-gatherer and Donald digs Meow Mix. They mix it up a little now and then and in the end Donald will kind of bat Topo over and they'll part ways for a while, but Topo has an interesting technique of always taking the higher ground in these skirmishes and so can hold her own against him until he sort of figures out that she's gotten the better position and kind of uses his size to best her.

So I often wonder about this. The female cats do the hunting and the male cats do the other stuff, whatever that is. In Donald's case, it's like he thinks eating other animals is cannabilism or something, but Topo seems to like keeping her skills sharp as if she wants to be ready in case the Big Animals in the house stop filling the bowls maybe. I'm not exactly sure what all this means, but I am pondering the differences between the boy cat and the girl cat. There are definite differences.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Perfect attendance is always desirable. : ) I'm going for a Lifetime Achievement award in that category. Like with the Oscars. They don't give an Oscar to somebody their whole life but then after a bazillion films they figure, hey, this guy won't go away. Give him something. : )

Next year, I've vowed before God, Family and the Boss, (Mrs. Socks), that I will not only show up present and accounted for but I will actually do something.

(right after the World Series, and that's a promise).

Hopes are high and there's positive vibes in the air. Whoo hoo!

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Thanks everyone! I appreciate your comments so much. Happy Monday back to all! I have achieved my most important goal in life for another year: perfect attendance! Love ya'll! :)-->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

:)--> Thanks Kit and thank you all! Two days to go, or so. Every year I get the same little present, my daughter Jennie was born the same day, and her brother Jesse on the 19th. Keeps me busy. ;)-->

Thanks again, love to all.

"If all our tomorrow's were never to come,

I'd be happy with all that I've done.

Loving you is the best thing I've done."

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Hey Paw, saw Art Garfunkle on an interview program a few weeks ago, not sure when it was taped. He's a very articulate person, enjoyed seeing him. He talked about his part in S and G music over the years and I was surprised to hear how involved he was in production, not sure why. Guess I've listened to Paul Simon more. It was good. Looking forward to catching them out this way if I can.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Ex, is that like internet reincarnation? :)-->

I want to come back as a tie. "Tie". or "Ty". Ty Tabor is a rippin' guitar player in the band Kings X and I've always thought that was a cool name.

Sudo, once a sock, always a sock!

def, if you're like me time is hard to come by. But posting here when you want to is kind of fun sometimes. The posts don't go if you don't type.

I've heard from a couple people that Larry Panarello has a ministry/church/operation of some kind and advises, tells, not sure of the right word - people to not post here. Now that may not be accurate so anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that buzz indirectly and also that if you do you can't "go" to his stuff. True? Apparently posting, reading, participating on GS erodes the mind or something. I'll grant you, diciphering some of my posts can be detrimental to sane thinking but overall, I find that kind of control degrading and well, silly. Or maybe it's just advice. Whatever it is, I don't like people telling me what to do with my free time, but that's just me.

Anyway, it's a good question. Can you be deleted from the Book of Greasespot? -->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Hills Bro, ya rascal! Happy Birthday!

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Very true, Mike.

Experience is no guarantee for truth.

Yet our lives are just that - experience - and for the part of me that types this and reads that it's all there is.

I'm reminded of how illogical Christianity is at it's core, for some reason. A dead man rises up to life 3 days after being killed...doesn't make sense does it? And for all that that is, it wouldn't mean a lot even 50 years after to people who hadn't seen it for themselves - if that's all there was to it.

My usual mantra - knowledge is one thing, understanding is another. Experience another still.

The Light shines eternally and if we ever really see it, it will burn everything else away and there's no going back after that because even if we don't walk in that Light all the time we will always remember what the world looked like illuminated, even for a moment. You can doubt it, ignore it, toy with it, but it's left it's mark. When we embrace it it will blind us to the darkness of life, lift us to love and relieve us of the burden of needing to prove day after day to ourselves by words and deeds that we're really here. We can just live.

I can't think of anything that I would wish more for you and for everyone. A life fully illuminated by that Light and the freedom to live in true peace. I don't believe it's in the temporary shelter we can find in the cracks and crevaces of this word or that, where shadows are cast and meanings evade us, it's in Life. Put another way, I hope you have your day at the pumps and the snow is so deep you have to ski out. ;)-->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

[This message was edited by socks on July 14, 2003 at 4:42.]

The 1942 promise...of gas and snow pumps.

I've never addressed it much over the years Mike and I was a little surprised when it got so much discussion here. Just goes to show me. I never gave it much credence. I didn't jump whole hog in to PFAL or the Way because of it.

It was something VP said in PFAL, but right from the get go it seemed like a moot point. I can see now more of why it wasn't, especially because of the way it affected some people that have posted here about it.

It's unprovable and has nothing to do with anything. If it happened, fine. If it didn't, fine. But either way - if VP had a vision, an ecstatic experience of some kind, real snow fell, one hell of a case of dandruff, whatever. It doesn't matter. Nothing is proven because of it. VP said the promise was "teach it and I'll teach it to you like it hasn't been known since..."

So there was never any standard to match that promise up to. Nobody has originals, no one has complete copies of any of the epistles or gospels to refer to. No one knows, that's what the promise WAS he said, "like it hasn't been known since WAY back when". For all practical purposes, VP was out past the edge and entirely on his own.

It's silly to say "if PFAL 'works' then it validates the 'promise'....it doesn't. VP could have taught that pigs fly and if a pig flew, it wouldn't mean the promise was true or that it even happened, it would just mean a pig flew. Are the two related? Oink. Not necessarily.

I was always surprised right from the first time I heard it that he told it. Who cares? What does it mean to me? Why is he telling me that?

I believed and pursued PFAL because I wanted to, and I wanted it to work. Much the same way you're approaching all of this stuff you're doing. You see it the way you want to, and you ignore the things you don't want to consider. And so it goes.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Sedona! Quite a place I've heard, still want to get there.

It'a a small one alright, much more connected than I knew at the age of 17. :)-->

One of the PFAL benefits on the old green card was "Disciplines the mind by believing".

Wassat mean? :)-->

Yknow, one of the interesting quandries of PFAL is that on the negative believing side of the coin, it stated that all the doubt worry and fear will issue in UNBELIEF. The net result of fear is UNBELIEF.

To unbelieve there has to be a belief. This is where I think PFAL leads to the idea of believing being bible/God's Word based - fear makes it harder to accept God's Word, but...that gets sticky.

Issuing in unbelief fits in to the chart and teaching built around the record of the man with the withered hand. He believed when he stretched forth his hand. He accepted the promise of God. Had he applied a negative attitude to his healing, he wouldn't have stretched forth his hand. No belief in the promise.

But just prior to that PFAL says that what we fear we will receive, IT'S a LAW. Fear of job-disease-accident-death. Again, there's no promise of God included here that isn't being believed or responded to. You're simply fearing that something will happen a certain way.

To quote directly:

To BELIEVE

Negative

--------

FEAR is Believing

-----------------

Believing in reverse.

Wrong believing.

Negative results.

There's several scripture references and the apostles prior to Pentecost are one example, they were in hiding, full of fear. The question is asked "what caused the change?". Answer - Pentecost.

All of which deals with people and promises of God.

???

So many of the examples had nothing to do with the promises of God...red drapes, no promises about those. Woman with the child, no mention that she had a promise of the Word she was deliberately denying. As the story goes, she just had great fear over her child's safety.

Another quote: "when and where we have fear in our lives we will not act on the promises of God. When and where we believe we will not have fear".

Soooo...fear/negative believing will keep us from acting on the promises of God. But the only sure way to eliminate fear is by believing those promises. So it's a catch 22 teaching if believing is limited to being intrinsic to the promises of God. I can't get rid of fear without believing the Word, but if I have fear I can't believe the Word. .....faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word? If that applies exclusively to building my believing by studying and listening to tapes, I may have a problem.

And many people did because this is a convoluted teaching IMO.

It would be much simpler to say that life is simply a matter of choice and decision. Period. What a person decides to think and do will likely lead to those things because that's what they choose to do. If a person wanted to rely on a scripture as their means to health and feels that God will provide, fine, do that. But don't overdo the entire teaching on BELIEVING being the key.

But if I believe that snails are oranges, I'm going to have a hard time opening a fruit stand because snails taste funny to a lot of people no matter what I believe. NO?

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

[This message was edited by socks on July 13, 2003 at 5:17.]