3 hours ago, penworks said:

Hello, Greasespotters. Just letting you know that another significant review of Undertow was just published by the International Cultic Studies Association, Inc. 

By permission, I've republished it here:

Book Review of "Undertow," Published by ICSA, Written by Bart Stewart (charleneedge.blogspot.com)

Remember, no author vets reviewers. ICSA put out the word about Undertow and this reviewer chose it. Their review is their response to the book, their opinions, their interpretations. Also, keep in mind this reviewer used other sources about The Way besides Undertow in his review.

Enjoy!

Charlene Edge

I will read that review shortly. However, at the public library in my new home town, I attended my first meeting of a local writers' group. I was given a couple of minutes to introduce myself. I mentioned my intent to write a memoir, noting my interest in politics and my 12 years in a particular Christian fundamentalist cult. I was quickly asked if I was at liberty to say which cult. 

Of course I am and gladly cited The Way International. Of the dozen or so other attendees, at least three or four indicated awareness of TWI as a cult.

Btw, the young airman who self-immolated on Sunday, WaPo noted, had been involved as a child in a "high-demand" religious sect. I cited WaPo in this comment on the cults s3 thread. In case the link I posted in that comment wasn't a gift article link, this one IS.

51 minutes ago, Raf said:

I appreciate your effort at being patronizing with a condescending tone, but I submit you are not very good at it. Why don't you ask the spirit why it can't actually show you evidence so instead has you making personal attacks? Perhaps it's because you never learned how to study an issue on your own? So all you can do is invoke an imaginary friend whose existence you can't demonstrate in order to try to make me look unbalanced?

52 minutes ago, Raf said:

Why do you lack the maturity to do what everyone else is doing even while disagreeing?

22 minutes ago, Raf said:

Ok, so you got nothing. Thanks for participating. Kindly refrain from psychoanalyzing me in future posts. You are very bad at it.

Reflecting back on these responses, Raf, it seems you could have used emojis to say pretty much the same thing without sounding defensive or resorting to name calling yourself. For example   

N'est pas?

11 hours ago, annio said:

Oh, no doubt about it, there have been all KINDS of power etc abuses in just about EVERY denomination or Christian movement, especially those getting attention recently. Twi definitely did not have a special corner on that! However, the length of time vp was able to abuse young women sexually, keep it all a secret, influence twi culture in big ways, and NEVER be held accountable in any effectual way is notable IMO.

Notable indeed... especially to us, because we were familiar with this particular cult.

I wonder if any academics have compiled credible data about the scope, time, and lack of meaningful accountability. I'd sure be interested in delving into such data.

Btw, according to a WaPo story, the Air Force E-4 (who self-immolated on Sunday) had been a part of a: 

"But how a young man who liked The Lord of the Rings and karaoke became the man ablaze in a camouflage military uniform remains a mystery, even among some of his closest friends.

"Bushnell was raised in a religious compound in Orleans, Mass., on Cape Cod, according to Susan Wilkins, 59, who said she was a member of the group from 1970 to 2005. She said that she knew Bushnell and his family on the compound and that he was still a member when she left. Wilkins said she heard through members of Bushnell’s family that he eventually left the group.

"Wilkins’s account is consistent with those of multiple others who said Bushnell had told them about his childhood in the religious group or who had heard about his affiliation from his family members.

"The group, called the Community of Jesus, has faced allegations of inappropriate behavior, which it has publicly disputed. In a lawsuit against an Ontario school, where many officials were alleged to be members of the U.S.-based religious group, former students called the Community of Jesus a “charismatic sect” and alleged that it “created an environment of control, intimidation and humiliation that fostered and inflicted enduring harms on its students.”

Multiple people who said they were former members of the Community of Jesus described their years after leaving the compound as particularly challenging. They said former members, soon after they depart the group, often long for a sense of belonging.

“A lot of us that got out are very much into social justice, trying to defend those who don’t or can’t defend themselves, because that is what we went through,” said Bonnie Zampino, 54, who said she was a member of the group for three years in the 1980s.

"Wilkins also said it is common for members of the Community of Jesus to join the military, describing the transition as moving from “one high-control group to another high-control group.”"

Emphasis mine. Also, the link to their website was mine, and very easy to find. 

I figure we'll learn more about SrAirman Bushnell in the days to come. However, high-control group is a significant indicator of cults, according to Steven Hassan. There's no indication thus far that Bushnell's decision was based on anything other than his own personal conviction about the war. But it seems obvious he was locked into a cultish mindset. Very sad and tragic, especially for his family. Btw, he apparently was only 25. Meaning Ms. Wilkins would have only known him as a small child.

1 hour ago, cman said:

I can imagine how badly talked about Paul was in his day.

Easy to do so for anyone familiar with human nature and how challenging accepted orthodoxies can cause massive consternation. I suspect that's not substantially different now than it was two millennia ago. 

18 hours ago, cman said:

yes

Oh... 

3 minutes ago, cman said:

which is easier or harder, proving something doesn't exist or proving it does exist

there is only one thing that can prove anything, the spirit

Is that how rational reasoning works?

On 2/21/2024 at 10:10 PM, Raf said:

actually, I said that wrong. My comment on the scholarly consensus is limited to the authorship of the Pauline epistles.

And we're supposed to take your word for it? 

I think it would be gracious of you to at least give us a link for where you came up with your claim about "scholarly consensus."

5 hours ago, waysider said:

But, then again, it might simply mean you're "on the ball".

YIKES! 

Many GSC readers will be familiar with Steven Hassan's name and anti-cult message.

This TED talk by Hassan is poignant (and has been for more than 40 years) and is salient today. It's less than 14 minutes long. The concept is far from limited to religion (including fundamentalist groups like twi) or politics. Hassan cites other ways people might be subject to this kind of mental/emotional manipulation.

BTW, all humans are subject to being conned. I have been and not only by Victor Wierwille or Loy Martindale. 

8 hours ago, Raf said:

GSC is a message board, not a doctoral dissertation service.

Hallelujah!

2 hours ago, oldiesman said:

All I can say to this is, if the Lord wants to wash my mouth and heart out with His kind of soap for however long he pleases, I will gladly submit myself to all that He desires of me and accept all that He permits to happen to me.

That's a very stoic sentiment you put forth, Oldies? My perspective is the bible is all story. Clearly there are still some on this thread who hew to the fundamentalist way of trying to figure out what's going to happen in the future... by looking at concordances and such.

BUT... accepting what comes your way in life is a very (emotionally) healthy approach overall anyway. Put another way, as Stoicism writer Ryan Holiday put it, Stillness is the key. Regardless of your believe in or denial of purgatory, I appreciate your Stoic reflection on the subject.

43 minutes ago, penworks said:

 

Socks said: The original RoA was a night during the Winter Advance of 1971 that was called Rock of Ages. That summer of 1971 was the first R of A gathering. Over the next few years the event went from local fairgrounds to the Way's property in New Knoxville, "the farm". 
 

Yes, and I was there at all of them, Socks, just like you. Great to meet you then and hear from you now! You were/are one of the "real" ones.

The photo below appeared in The Toledo Blade newspaper. It captures the stage dynamic from ROA August, 1971, at The Way HQ near the pond. 

On a personal note, I happened to be the Corps applicant who painted the banner at the back of the stage "The Word Over the World." I used orange paint, who knows why? And I remember making the banner out of oiled canvas up in the barn under dangling light bullbs (from the rafters) on a makeshift table made of plywood held up by wooden "horses," like the ones they use to stop traffic.

I think that autobiographical detail is relayed in Undertow. Anyway, I hear that the WOW phrase is trademarked now. Lemme go back and paint a superscript TM on that banner, okay?

To any staff member at HQ who is reading these posts here at Greasespot Cafe, I can't imagine any young people today would jump at the chance to re-enact such hippiedom-yoked to-Bible-thumping. But maybe I'm wrong. Stranger things have happened.

It's a different time and a different culture. Literally. 

15 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

They should make sure there's a bucket of condoms at the Young Adult Rock. 

Hmmm... interesting reflection. For safety's sake, you're probably right. As to whether the culture at such an event would be anything we'd expect to imagine? I have no clue. 

1 hour ago, socks said:

If I were them, and I'm not but if I were - and I'm not - I'd take a step back and get the temperature of the membership, see what's going on and make room for something new and current to develop. Freshen it up. Allow for some spontaneous combustion. Set the stage, make the space, see what can be done. Inclusive, not exclusive.

Great insight there Socks. Of course, you are NOT them. A very salient question for them might be whether they are even capable of taking the temperature of the membership or are they just desperate for ideas (throwing spaghetti against the wall and hoping it will stick)? 

3 hours ago, Rocky said:

I saw that article. SMH!

Except, I saw it here: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/29/amy-coney-barrett-father-christian-sect-controversy

Hey Rusty Duck,

A lot of vets face a lot of crap.

I look forward to reading more of your story.

Like you, I was a Military WOW Ambassador after becoming involved w/TWI.

Unlike you, I never had suicidal ideations. I have had other intense ideations, when dealing with a divorce that was far more painful than it needed to be. One factor for me was the model of family where the man is the head of the woman. 

Also like you, I have gotten medical care at the US Dept of Veterans Services. I hear stories from fellow vets who are less than pleased with VA medical care. However, I'm tremendously thankful for the care I've received.

Maybe sometime I'll be ready to get more personal and vulnerable in what I share about my medical care. For now, I don't want to derail your thread or take away from your story.

Your story is very important. I'm very interested in hearing more of it, as much as you can be comfortable sharing.

9 hours ago, waysider said:

I'm still waiting for someone to explain what "hot bible" is. (I'm not holding my breath.)

I would bet it's an archaic remnant of 1970s Jesus Movement rhetoric. Key word being archaic. 

8 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Thought there may be some interest reading about the group "People of Praise" mentioned inside this piece that I never heard of before:

New role for Amy Coney Barrett’s father inside Christian sect sparks controversy (aol.com)

I saw that article. SMH!

On 1/23/2024 at 7:11 AM, Mike said:

Why define it?

Just go and listen to all 5 teachings and you'll know what I mean.

 

 

 

By definition of subjectivity, that is inherently not a true statement.

17 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yes it fits right in with Bible accounts like the twelve meeting the seventy where they said “we own the trademark on everything you’re doing” and called them “swagger jackers”.

 

Wow! 

6 hours ago, lweber55 said:

Wow. Martindale ruined the Way. Even with its faults it was the best thing available in early 70s. Many of us wouldn’t even be alive   Even if drs teachings were plagiarized he did put it all together for us. I left in 1988. Couldn’t take the carnage being wrought by LCM. I CANT understand and never will why dr W picked him. Was he being blackmailed?  Or was he just failing in his decision making. 

Was he being blackmailed? I doubt it. 

Who knows what's in the heart of any human?

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

have paid money to patent the term “Word Over the World”.

Spiritual warfare? Or economic warfare?

Gotta protect their "intellectual property" don't ya know?

If you think you're being brave (courageous) and it doesn't involve vulnerability (risk or uncertainty), you're not being brave. 

According to Dr Brown, the opposite of belonging is FITTING IN. 

The reason many of us fell under Victor Wierwille's influence was a combination of 1) how we were raised or what we believed as a result of what we were exposed to as children; and 2) that Victor exploited THAT very cultural inheritance we had when we first heard of him, TWI, and PFLAP. TWI embraced us enough (love bombing) at first to draw us in. Then we heard a loud drumbeat of what it would take to please God.

Brené Brown | The Most Eye-Opening 14 Minutes Of Your Life

And it will NOT cost you $200, or even $40. She's not even trying to sell you a class. 

Victor Wierwille, from this perspective, was nothing more and nothing less than an entrepreneur.

IF he was a con artist. WE were the marks. I was. In October this year, it will have been 50 years since I first hear the pitch.

What I have today that I did NOT have 50 years ago is EXPERIENCE. Experience gained through struggle. See Romans 5:3

10 hours ago, waysider said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1y0QvJCVZc

Highlight is the youngest child rocking with two older girls.
20230428 Crazy Train Song by Ozzy Osbourne (Performed by Petty Rock) at Siam Indy Stage

 

2 hours ago, waysider said:

I knew a man that I did not care for
And then one day, this man gave me a call
We sat and talked about things on our mind
And now this man, he is a friend of mine

 

heh! 

Edit: I watched the video.

groovy!