Grace Valerie Claire
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Posts posted by Grace Valerie Claire
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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:
yeah me too...here it's like the New York Stock Exchange only it's the Grease Spot Thought Exchange - where an investment of your 2 cents can go a long way.
T-Bone, that is hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!
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4 hours ago, waysider said:
I like to think I wouldn't have gotten involved, either. Truth is, though, it was 50 years ago. I'm not the same person now that I was then. Don't beat yourself up over decisions you made so long ago.
Way, I do wonder why I got involved. I think, if my childhood, had been happy, I never would have gotten involved. I think it was probably, the 'Love Bombing' that drew me in, and kept me in. I had never felt so loved, as I did in my first Twig. Never again, would I feel that loved.
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13 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
Great post, Rocky - I'm with you on "the artifacts be preserved in museums dedicated to putting them in historical context so people now and in the future would better understand the changing times in our country...Putting twi (and other cult) symbols and artifacts in perspective for young people now and for future generations "
T-Bone, yes! I agree with you, and Rocky. Future generations, need to know about cults, like TWI, so they don't get trapped in them. I wish I had known years ago, that the TWI was a cult. If I had known, I would never have gotten involved with it.
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On 3/29/2017 at 2:20 PM, penworks said:
FYI - for those interested, on Amazon, the "Look Inside" feature is now active for Undertow.
Also, the e-book is finished being converted by IngramSpark and should show up on booksellers' websites in one or two weeks.
Cheers.
Wonderful!!
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3 hours ago, Oakspear said:
Interesting illustration a few posts back about controlling the future by controlling the past & controlling the past by controlling the present, and how we often bought into the made-up "memories" of Wierwille and his inner circle. Another 1984 line that gets quoted a lot is the one about not believing the evidence of your own eyes.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
During the end of my sojourn in TWI I had some question about what they were telling us about Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars'. I remember Wierwille making the statement "And that's why there are no stars in The North". What? There ARE stars in the north...they're all over the damn place! I didn't give it much thought until many years later Martindale brought it up. He admitted that he too was puzzled by that statement. He then pointed to the map of the constellations in the back of 'Witness of the Stars' and told us that it meant that there was a gap, representing 'the mystery' in between Ursa Major & Ursa Minor that contained no stars. Soon after that I was out camping, and away from the city lights, you could plainly see a truckload of stars in the supposed gap.
When I brought it up to "leadership" they "explained" that back then they didn't know about all the constellations that we know about now since they didn't have telescopes. That statement made so little sense, and was so ridiculous on the face of it, it was one of the steps to me getting out the YTWI door
3 hours ago, Oakspear said:Interesting illustration a few posts back about controlling the future by controlling the past & controlling the past by controlling the present, and how we often bought into the made-up "memories" of Wierwille and his inner circle. Another 1984 line that gets quoted a lot is the one about not believing the evidence of your own eyes.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
During the end of my sojourn in TWI I had some question about what they were telling us about Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars'. I remember Wierwille making the statement "And that's why there are no stars in The North". What? There ARE stars in the north...they're all over the damn place! I didn't give it much thought until many years later Martindale brought it up. He admitted that he too was puzzled by that statement. He then pointed to the map of the constellations in the back of 'Witness of the Stars' and told us that it meant that there was a gap, representing 'the mystery' in between Ursa Major & Ursa Minor that contained no stars. Soon after that I was out camping, and away from the city lights, you could plainly see a truckload of stars in the supposed gap.
When I brought it up to "leadership" they "explained" that back then they didn't know about all the constellations that we know about now since they didn't have telescopes. That statement made so little sense, and was so ridiculous on the face of it, it was one of the steps to me getting out the YTWI door
Oak, thank the good lord, you got out! I know it took me years to exit TWI, but I finally did it. Once out, I never went back.
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2 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Yes !!!!
A case in point is the riveting film Spotlight - IMDB's brief description of it - "The true story of how the Boston Globe uncovered the massive scandal of child molestation and cover-up within the local Catholic Archdiocese, shaking the entire Catholic Church to its core."
T-Bone, Spotlight was a very revealing movie, IMO. Until I saw that movie, I had no idea, how rampant sexual abuse, had been in the Catholic Church. Worse than knowing about the abuse, was the cover up. The Church knew, some priests were abusing members of their congregations, and did nothing to stop it. Finally, the Church was forced to pay out Billions of dollars, to the victims. However, by that time, many of the survivors, had drug, and alcohol problems. Some of the victims even committed suicide, if I remember correctly, from the movie. No amount of money will ever compensate, those unfortunate victims.
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2 hours ago, Rocky said:
Your entire post/comment resonates with me. I believe I've said the same thing about the authoritarian structure in different words, a number of times over the last twenty years. I saw it as the accountability in the social structure was bass-ackward in twi. In Acts, the elders held themselves accountable to the people who supported them.
IMO, the entire Christian church, at least in the Western world, looks at authority in such a way that the elders were considered "leaders" who must be followed. That's dangerous stuff all around. And I believe that's why sexual abuse is pervasive regardless of denomination.Rocky, absolutely true, unfortunately.
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5 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Rocky, that is such a heart-wrenching article – and after reading it, I thought of a whole other aspect on the sexual culture and abuse in The Way. I realized my previous post over double standards and hypocrisy just scratched the surface. While reading that article – a thought occurred to me a couple of times. How could some TWI-leaders get that fvcked up? I think it comes down to systemic problems inherent in TWI.
I believe one of the biggest systemic problems is the consequence of having an authoritarian pyramid structure with absolute power and influence being at the top – a position occupied by a sexual predator. The next step down the pyramid hierarchy of status and authority is comprised of the way corps. Now the way corps program was wierwille’s baby – he created it and was responsible for it. And one of the most subliminal methods of “teaching” the way corps was in the way he modeled what the ideal spiritual man or woman should be like in attitudes, behavior, etc.
I’ve mentioned the pajama party my first year of in-residence way corps training several times on Grease Spot – so I won’t reiterate all the disgusting and offensive details again (I’ve left a few links below of a thread where I’ve discussed it at length). One detail has always stuck with me - the far-reaching ramifications of some of the crazy things wierwille said in trying to alleviate the shock and horror that was palpable in the room after he showed the porn video: “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me…Unto the pure all things are pure…Anything done in the love of God is okay…If you’re going to help people in counseling and to get healed you can’t be shocked by anything.”
For me, being raised a good Catholic boy with a sensitive conscience – I simply repressed the memory of that night – maybe figuring that it all was way beyond my current level of spiritual growth – I don’t know. Anyway, I wasn’t that impressed or concerned with how wierwille suggested we handle counseling situations. Even before I went in the corps, a TWI-clergy guy introduced me to the work of a Christian counselor Jay Adams and I got into some other non-Way counselors like Larry Crabb. These authors seemed to know what they were talking about and it was straight-forward stuff right out of the Bible without twisting words, concepts and no salacious applications - stuff I could wrap my mind around - not like wierwille's approach - his was too...too...too...out there ...after we were out of in-residence training – I’d occasionally have some vague dissenting thought like “maybe wierwille had no business teaching about counseling”. Later that same year, still brooding over “passing of the patriarch” – I was having even more unsettling thoughts – like "maybe we were all just playing church."
Our moral conscience is such a valuable and sometimes precarious thing. I think of I Corinthians 15: 33 Do not be misled: Bad company corrupts good character. I’m glad I left when I did – I probably dodged a huge bullet by getting out of The Way. Circling back to a question I asked earlier - how could some TWI-leaders get that fvcked up? Maybe some guys were already predisposed toward licentiousness. And being in the way corps – wierwille’s baby - was that a way to validate throwing off sexual restraints? Don't know...just wondering.
I’m not saying all TWI-leaders are fvcked up in that way. But on the other hand, if way corps have stuck around for a really long time and are well aware of the bad $hi+ perpetrated by the dark underbelly of the beast (TWI) and they still just look the other way, while they put together another teaching on Christians should be prosperous – that’s also kinda fvcked up in my book too.
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the conscience can be cauterized
Hoe TWI-leaders model "The Word"
T-Bone, excellent post!
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On 2/27/2021 at 1:04 PM, Grace and Mercy said:
I love Guthrie’s quote! My own journey post-twi took me to the Episcopal church. One of its primary draws for me was that they do not have an official doctrine (dogma) which is very restful after the years of “The Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God” , et cetera. Among my bedrock beliefs is that no one, ever, in the history of humankind has had the last word or a complete understanding of the mind of God. God is God and we are not, so nobody gets to decide for everyone else what is “truth.”
Grace, great post!
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On 12/15/2020 at 1:13 PM, T-Bone said:
Grace, I agree with WordWolf – that is a great original question! That’s one of the many reasons why I keep coming to Grease Spot. Good questions often help us acquire knowledge, eliminate confusion, solve problems and often spur on further investigation.
On a side note, for me Grease Spot is like a think tank for cult survivors – besides the intriguing questions and challenges we all bring to the table, there’s also a lot of empathy here - offering advice and different perspectives, pooling resources, and addressing cult tactics. Overall it helps me peel back the onion in terms of mental baggage, reexamining my experiences and even making some headway in the journey of self-discovery.
Thanks, T-Bone, but I have always wondered why VPW, dragged his whole family to India, minus JP. I guess I will never know the answer, but I am open to opinions.
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On 4/17/2020 at 9:17 AM, Twinky said:
Gosh, I found one of those Red Thread long-sleeve shirts the other day. Had forgotten I'd got it. It could be a nice shirt to wear, but I don't like its connotations. And no doubt it has TWI's name all over it and I wouldn't want to "advertise" them. Might have to make dusters or some such out of it.
Twinky, you could give it to an animal pound. It might be used to clean up feces; manure is manure.
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On 3/6/2019 at 11:05 AM, engine said:
Thanks Grace,
I haven't been around here much for a long time, and had never seen that link from Penworks (Thx, Penworks, BTW), but on all the other pretty current.
I was at the reading of POP at corps week in '86.
Have read portions since. My gawd, that poor man, look at the burden on him and how he really serves and shields the MOGFOT and how he tries so hard, and no matter what he just keeps trying, and the hurt and pain of OUR beloved MOGFOT, oh, I wish I had been there.....sob sniff tears.....NOT.
I also know two fellas, 8th and 10th, who flew to Gartmore with another Rev back then to get an OK to go around the overturned eighteen wheel "Yuk" twig, or get instructions on what to do.
They wanted to see Geer. These three were doing the run around on their higher ups at HQ. Another mutiny inside a mutiny like the little Russian dolls. The one where DWBH was confronting all of 'em seems like. They were going to wrest back this "thing" away from them, or do whatever had to be done, and get it back on track. And, it would have been just as awful. Firstly, DWBH would have had to confront at least one of them, too. That was a sprout of the first offshoot...it died.
Asked my old Bro' in person 3 years ago, "Why did you go?"
"To find out how to save the minus-try." Said his plan had always been a "career" in the minus-try. He had climbed up to Limb Coor. by '85.
"So, what did he tell you? Anything? Or, did he just sorta' look at you with that psychzoid I'm getting revelation don't mess with me kinda' look?" Hardly nothing, he says....a whole week! Hope they were Scotch drinkers! Hope it wasn't raining on your parade there in sunny Scotland!
Honestly? It's really kinda' super hard to see miracles and have joy and love and those things without the Holy Spirit, who, best guess, had to grievingly depart from Twit, if it ever was really there much at all because of the corruption and sin. But, to me, most especially, the Holy Spirit had to leave because of the denial of Who Jesus really is...the Christ...the Logos in Person! Not a Book. Found in That Book...not the Book. Knows my name, every hair counted, loves me as the Good Shepherd that He is, Was, Always shall be. Mine. His.
He's spoken of in the banned books section of the Twit archives: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's where I met Him before the way. He's still there.
And, it seems, from what I've read, it didn't take long after the first coups of Heefner and Doop (not quite my time yet) for the fabric to begin to fray.
Anyway, Grace, thank you. Boy, I sailed away on that one.
Engine, you are welcomed. I still think the POTP, was a lot of Hog Wash.
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1 minute ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:
Hello, Grace and Mercy! It's good to have you here, at the GSC. You got in TWI, a few years before, I did, but both of us left in 1990. I also noticed that some of the WC people, throught they were God's personal representatives, here to help us "peons", with our walks with God. Most of the WC people, were wonderful to be around, and really did try their best to walk the walk, and talk the talk. However, a few of them had attitudes, that rubbed me the wrong way. These Corps members, throught they were "special", because they were Corps, and most of us regular people weren't. I remember once, I had to go to the ER, for a problem. After, I left the ER, I attended the tail end of a Branch Meeting, and wanted him to pray for me. Instead, he yelled at me, for being sick! I looked at him, but didn't say, a word, and left the meeting quite upset. Never again, did I have any interaction with this foot. In time, the medical problem was dealt with, but I realized how insensitive some of the "Big Wigs", really were. I was thrilled when this man, moved out of my area, and I didn't have to deal with him. Oh Happy Day!
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Excuse me! I wanted the Branch Leader to pray for me. I was happy not to have to deal with this fool!
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Hello, Grace and Mercy! It's good to have you here, at the GSC. You got in TWI, a few years before, I did, but both of us left in 1990. I also noticed that some of the WC people, throught they were God's personal representatives, here to help us "peons", with our walks with God. Most of the WC people, were wonderful to be around, and really did try their best to walk the walk, and talk the talk. However, a few of them had attitudes, that rubbed me the wrong way. These Corps members, throught they were "special", because they were Corps, and most of us regular people weren't. I remember once, I had to go to the ER, for a problem. After, I left the ER, I attended the tail end of a Branch Meeting, and wanted him to pray for me. Instead, he yelled at me, for being sick! I looked at him, but didn't say, a word, and left the meeting quite upset. Never again, did I have any interaction with this foot. In time, the medical problem was dealt with, but I realized how insensitive some of the "Big Wigs", really were. I was thrilled when this man, moved out of my area, and I didn't have to deal with him. Oh Happy Day!
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On 2/9/2021 at 10:47 AM, outandabout said:
One of the most liberating things when I left TWI was the realization the Sh1t Happens.
Out, yes!! Back when I was in TWI, people would say that S--t happens because of my believing. No, sometimes life is hard, and things happen we have no control over. For example, those poor people in Houston, who have been without power for several days. They had no control over what happened to them, and they are suffering mightily from not having heat, or electricity. Poor souls.
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1 hour ago, waysider said:
I still remember approaching the Advanced Class with an expectation of "spiritual enlightenment", only to be sorely disappointed with its content. It may be one of the most depressing realizations I've ever experienced.
Way, exactly!!
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On 9/28/2020 at 11:09 AM, skyrider said:
Recently, The Way International made a two-fold grand announcement:
- This new announcement waives the debt-free requirement for students desiring to enroll in the upcoming Advanced Classes in 2021.
- Next year, there will be two advanced classes run. The first one is for advanced class grads at Camp Gunnison (May 1-9, 2021) and the second advanced class is for new students at hq (June 13-26, 2021).
Lots of attention has being drawn to the waiving of their strict debt-free requirement, a policy that was implemented in 1994.......
But......the advanced class grads-only "camp" in May is the Loyalty Test and Purge that cometh.
Make no mistake about its importance. This is a "circle the wagons" maneuver....a planned, strategic, tactical, and controlled move. This is the SAME PLOY implemented in 1992 after "the fog years." Let's number the ways why twi would do this....
- Twi does NOT have clergy "camps"........or corps "camps." Why? Already fleeced of their labor, get-togethers have little upside.
- The whole concept of a "clergy household" is grade-A bunk. In my 14 years as clergy......we only had a few meetings, nothing more.
- Corps grads will be pressured to attend this advanced class (all-grads class). Committed corps show up.
- The committed get to attend first.....adv class grads and corps. Plus, "sit at the feet of the teachers"...who would miss THAT?
- Advanced Class students, and therefore grads......are a prime target for twi. Faithful tithing and future corps applicants.
- For the same reason, twi has Advanced Class Specials......exploitation at its maximum. Money. Power. Influence. Control.
- Peer pressure goes both ways.....up and down the cult paradigm. You will be pressured to attend. Count on it.
- Just like in Scientology......there is a subliminal control factor in promoting people to scale levels of "achievement." #8 -- Going Clear.
- The advanced class completes the series. It is marketed as attainment of "spiritual maturity".....until you find out later it isn't.
The Way International is borrowing the same play from their 1992 playbook: Run an advanced class for grads-only at a twi-property location. Home Field Advantage. They control all the factors. Notice......it is an intense, condensed version of the advanced class. Nine days......long days......structured to the hilt. Very little time for hanging out in the scenic beauty of Colorado. No time to hike, explore or have a couple of afternoons hanging with "friends." Could it be that this intensely, structured time keeps questions and dissent to a minimum? Absolutely!!
Do you have to attend to keep your advanced class grad status?
If so........then this will purge from the ranks those who do NOT attend.
WARNING: Cults operate via a series of purges ...........and this is another one coming. For those who are happy residing in an institutionalized environment, then this thread is not for you. But to those who do not like being played......or jumping thru hoops to stand before your leadership year after year......stop and give this some thought. Do you a.c. grads really NEED or WANT to sit thru another advanced class again?
SSDD
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Sky, how much do these classes cost? In 1985, my AC cost 500.00 dollars. I imagine these classes aren't cheap.
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22 minutes ago, Oakspear said:
I got an internet ordination 15 years ago so I could officiate at weddings. I use "Reverend" on my website and business cards, but I like people to call me by my first name. Some people at weddings insist on calling me "pastor" or "reverend" though.
Oak, wow!! I didn't know that was possible. Good for you!
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On 1/22/2021 at 2:19 PM, Oakspear said:
I was raised Catholic, so it was always Father Johnson or Father Bill. I've never been involved in any other churches, so I don't know for sure, although I have heard acquaintances refer to their
Oak, I used to attend a Methodist Church in Bethesda, and we called the ministers, by their first names. They would call me by my first name, which was fine. Everyone calls me by my first name, which I really like. I like the fact that people feel comfortable doing it.
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4 hours ago, Oakspear said:
I wonder if anyone from TWI monitors this site any more. 20 years ago there were a large numbers of "innies" participating in GSC, and they were checking here to see whom to purge. I was shown the door after they figured out from my posts who I was
Oak, I have no idea who you are, but I probably wouldn't know you from Adam, because I left over thirty years ago. Why were you kicked out? If you don't want to share that information, that is fine.
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On 6/17/2020 at 6:42 AM, skyrider said:
This is not surprising.
At age 80.....I would imagine that Rosalie is tired, truly tired, of keeping up daily pretenses. And, looking in her mirror.....it was time to face the reality that her aged body is not camera-ready without a lot of constant work.
The daily grind of details.....who quit, who exited, and who is going to go in and do damage control. Hundreds of corps have exited since 2005. And, that 2017 exodus took a swath of "big-names" (moynihans, forts, horneys, magnellis, fredericks, etc.) many who'd been involved since the early 70s. Even for Rosa-lie.....that had to be depressing. Could it be that this last *patch it up before leaving* was Rosa-lie's attempt to save a smidgeon of her legacy? Yeah, a legacy of destruction.
No matter. Life moves on......and the new guys who've been groomed in way-religion will "follow the yellow brick road." They heard Wierwille was a whiz of a wiz.....if ever a wiz there was! After martindale was ousted, Rosa-lie made sure wierwille regained his mog-title, in full.
When all is said and done......I think that Rosa-lie was holding out for that 20-year badge of honor. She held the presidency for 20 years.....after martindale was kicked out for sexual predation (public confession in April 2000 of a "one-time affair" with Ms. Allen). Thus, Rosa-lie held the throne from April 2000 - June 2020. She had to clean up that unfortunate mishap with choosing Jean-Yves to run things. But now.....she can claim to have held the post for 20 years as she holds onto this legend in her own mind.
So now, Rosalie will sit in an emeritus seat alongside Howard (the Duck) and Wanda. What grand company the emeritus group is..... LOL
There will be no change.....just a reshuffling of the deck chairs.
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Sky, in other words, same S--t, just a different day.
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On 5/21/2020 at 6:27 PM, Twinky said:
From what I gather, Donna certainly helps Rosalie make her bed - and lie in it. LOL!
Twinky, thanks for the laugh
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On 12/8/2020 at 3:08 PM, Twinky said:
Welcome, AC04! Good for you, getting out of that organization and moving on so well with your life. A master's degree, great job, and own home, all sound absolutely great. Talking like a normal person in society is very good
and perhaps you've lost the "trigger" words that set your mind back to TWI days (hard to overcome those trigger words).
Still a good idea to give away a reasonable amount of your money - to places of your own choosing - a church or charity that you like, or a neighbor who is in need. And it is a very good idea to stay out of debt.
Having said that, after worrying for a long time, I bought a house myself and worked hard at paying off the mortgage, making overpayments as permitted without penalties. I couldn't afford to rent my own home even when I first bought the house, and now that the mortgage is so tiny ... well, let's say, no regrets. I have the money to redeem in full in my bank account, could have paid it off a few years ago, but my interest rate is very low and the penalty for early repayment exceeds that.
So. Draw up a chair, tell us what news you know. Have a cuppa and a slice of cake. Somebody might offer you stronger stuff than tea or coffee.
Twinky, that cake looks so good!! But, it's not in my diet plan, so I will let someone else have it. But thanks!!
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On 12/8/2020 at 12:42 PM, AC04Ohio said:
Hello!
I was in Ohio for most of my life, raised by my two parents who joined the way in the 70's. I was a somewhat enthusiastic "believer" until my early 20s and then I dove in - went Way Disciple after I graduated college then moved in with ministers in Syracuse, New York.
I left everything behind and I was so worried that I wouldn't be okay without "God's protection." But I have to say, my life is improving. I have a master's degree, a great job, a great car, and will soon co-own a home.
None of that would have been possible if I was still giving away 10%+ of my income and afraid of debt. I feel like I have a brighter future than the Way Royalty (as we jokingly called them in college) who were booted recently.
I have transferrable skills, I can talk like a normal person in society, and I no longer have to hide "my" religious views from others.
Imagine that.
Hello ACO! Good for you!! Life is good outside of TWI. One thing I really enjoy about my life, is today I can be the real me. I can say what I want, read what I want, and do what I want. I don't have a lot of people telling me, what I should, or shouldn't do. I don't have to witness to anyone, or take a bunch of boring classes. Liberty is intoxicateing!
the sexual culture/abuse in the way and me...
in New Members
Posted
T-Bone, I saw that movie several years ago. Great movie! I think Tina Turner, is a great singer, and an amazing woman. All that abuse, and she was still able to have a successful life. Wow!