Taxidev

20 minutes ago, Rocky said:

So, is the R&R group the actual Oikeos Christian Network?

No, Oikeos is Rico Magnelli.

22 minutes ago, Rocky said:

That you seem to have had no clue about the purpose of the organization, reflects a dramatic level of naivete. I'll refrain from guessing about whether or not it is accompanied by disingenuous intent.

That I actually have no clue about Oikeos is due to the fact that I just found out about it.  So you can keep all your insulting comments about my intentions, or lack thereof, in your pocket and sit on them. 

And you can also stop playing analyst with me - you don't know me, and you don't know my intentions about anything.  Just because something is important to you doesn't mean AT ALL that it should be important to me.

12 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Since you lack curiosity about what is really going on with R&R, why should anyone take anything you say about them seriously?

I find that to be a pretty snotty statement.  But if that's how you feel about it, feel free to not read what I share about them.  Many here have expressed interest in what I do know about them.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

So they restrict access to the website which contains links to their teachings to those that join them on a FB group?

Why not expose such research revelations that Steve Longley had to the world like being likeminded with Christ?

I suggested opening it up, like other web sites.  So far, it's a no go.

BTW: there was a conference in Florida over the Labor Day weekend.  In case you're interested in hearing what they were teaching, here is a free link to all of it.  Just click the little speaker icon and it will open a new window with the whole weekend of recordings.

https://oikeos.org/sermon/opening-of-the-hope-conference-r-magnelli/

18 hours ago, T-Bone said:

usually the person bringing allegations against a leader is declared to be possessed and/or railroaded off property “booms quick”...other defensive measures have been used like “Mark and Avoid”.

That's how TWI handled it.  But R&R doesn't actually have "leaders".  And "mark and avoid" isn't a title, it's something an individual does with regard to another individual that is causing division on the Word.  I think they did a teaching on that, or maybe it was in my local fellowship - I lose track.

38 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

while at the same time you had most of the faithful followers down at the local fellowship level scratching their heads wondering what the hell was going on – “how come all these corps people tripped out?”;

I think it would have been helpful to all of us out there if something had been communicated.  The BOD certainly wasn't going to do it, so we were left to our imaginations every time.

39 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

so anyway...if you happen to get more involved with them let me know of your experience.

Don't hold your breath. 

From what I've learned here about the lot of them, I may just remain at arm's length, and just enjoy my local fellowship, and maybe get involved in some community aid program here in my area.  I know I have my own ministry, as do all of us, and I don't need anyone to give me direction on that - I get that from God.  And there are more than enough resources that if I have a question about scripture, I'm positive I can get it clarified.

2 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

That Steve Longley had something to do with that bogus non-Research Dept.? Bwaaaahahahaha! Now THAT’S funny! If he’s some kind of “example” for you, you’re understanding of the Bible is quite limited imho.

I didn't say he was an example for me.  I said he did a good teaching on what likeminded actually is, as opposed to what TWI propounded it to be.

6 hours ago, Rocky said:

As I've said before, you don't seem to demonstrate much curiosity or inquisitiveness regarding the group. You very likely could learn a lot more about them, beneath the surface so to speak, if you did.

You are correct, I'm not really interested in digging deeper into this group.  I'm just watching them, and listening to what they teach.  As for beneath the surface, I really don't care what's beneath the surface.  When it rises to the surface, then I'll care.  Until then, I'll just watch and listen.

6 hours ago, Rocky said:

Glad you asked for clarification. I answered it in several prior posts on this thread.

You have already explained why you would think I'm too close to them to be objective?  Please point me to that, because I don't remember anything like that in anything you've posted.

2 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Taxi, I believe I told you this before; please be careful about this R&R group.  To me, something stinks in Denmark. You have been warned.

Thanks, Grace.  I appreciate your concern, and I am being careful.  I'm not personally involved with them, I just listen to the teachings on Sundays, just as I listen to teachings from others.

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

You appear to be too close to the subject to be capable of objective analysis.

I don't know why you would think that.  I personally know two of them, and they don't seem to be part of the coordinating group.  I listen to their teachings on Sundays, but I listen to teachings from many people.  I haven't participated in any of their other activities. 

So, I'm probably as close to them as I am to GSC, and I'm not close to anyone here either.  I appreciate what I've learned from many here, just as I appreciate what I learn from anyone, R&R included.

I see the biggest difference between me and many here with regards to the R&R group is that I'm not holding onto anger against them.  So I'm free to just watch them at arms length without emotion clouding my vision.  And that vision is in the now, not the past.

58 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Beyond claiming "they have been very specific they don't want money," how deep has been the public discussion about how the organization will fund its activities?

Their web site is very simple, so I'm supposing, based on personal experience, that it costs them $120 / yr for that, plus another $12 for the domain name.  Between the 12 or so that signed that last letter, I think they can handle that.

As for anything else they do, I don't know of any public discussion.  I only know they haven't ask us out in the ether for any money.  That's good enough for me.

I do know that when they have an event, they divide the cost of the venue among those attending.  I just found out today that a few of them are running classes, and they are free.

That's all I know regarding the money, Rocky.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

All right so I'm back to answering this post.

Alrighty then.  Thanks for all of that.  And, BTW, I was the person that invited them here for all of you.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

Plenty have confronted the Way, left the way, sent letters in.  What was the purpose behind that pomp and circumstance video that contained a whole lot of nothing?

That's an interesting point.  I was supposing they wanted to communicate to the Way body the action/reaction between them and the BOD.  But, it's true, plenty of people have left TWI and they just seem to vanish.  I remember when Larry Panarello left - it took months for me to even find out he was gone.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

That is the group that is planning out what is taught on Sundays, right?

I'm not sure who organizes that, but I do know they don't decide what is taught, only who will be teaching.  Someone in my area was asked to teach, and then he taught what he wanted to teach.

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

CFF

I just found about about this one today, and when I looked at the web site I wasn't impressed.  I was actually going to post a question here to see if anyone knew anything about them.  So thanks for sharing that.

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

I actually worked with them face to face

Well, that changes my view of what you had originally brought up.  I keep forgetting that many of you here were involved long ago, and at the root.  Forgive me.

I appreciate everything you've shared about this.  Please know I am always interested in learning more of the history of TWI, and of the individuals.

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

how about a public apology

And how would they go about that?  It's not like the latest Catholic scandal, where it's already in the news media.  Facebook?  Would you see their posts?

So, what about the Matt 18 aspect?  Do you not want to confront them?

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Don’t know how to find them?!?!

that’s hilarious!!!!

Like I said, I was speculating.  Okay, it's always good to have a chuckle, right?

28 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

just to mention two that come to mind (there’s a ton more throughout the Bible) there’s Matthew 5: 23 & 24 about the priority of reconciling with those we have hurt - Jesus said that was more important than any religious or spiritual obligation; and there’s Matthew 18 verses 15 and following on dealing with sin in the Church.

I wasn't aware of them in their entire first year, and I don't know any of the details of what these folks may or may not have done after leaving TWI, so this is just speculation.  

In Matt 5, I think the presumption is they know how to find the person who had been offended.  Maybe they want to but don't know how to find them.

In Matt 18, it is the offended person that is to approach the offender.  I'm sure some here have approached these folks while they were still with TWI, but have they approached them since they left?  I remember DWBH mentioning contacting someone, but I don't remember when that was.  The reply he received was startling to me.  But that was only one person.  What about the rest?  The attempt I made a while ago for some here was done anonymously, and they didn't seem to appreciate that.

And I would be EXTREMELY interested in hearing about it.  That would speak louder than a megaphone, whether they have the humility to work through it all or not.

56 minutes ago, skyrider said:

wierwilleology

What a GREAT term!

16 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I figure you’ve probably said this before and I just missed it or forgot - but anyway how long were you involved in TWI and how did you come across the R&R group?

I started attending fellowship in 1995.

Last year a friend in Florida messaged me in facebook about the R&R livecast in May.  I missed it because I wasn't on fb for several months, and say the invitation a week later when I finally went on fb.  So I watched the recording.  While it wasn't thrilling, and barely revealing, I figured I'd watch what they were up to while still attending TWI fellowship.  I officially ended that in May this year.

1 hour ago, skyrider said:

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Steven Longley is now helping to spearhead the R&R teachings?  WOW

My understanding is he left because Rosalie closed the research department.  She said they know all they need to know.  I almost choked when I learned about that.

10 hours ago, T-Bone said:

but perhaps what you think they’re shooting for might be quite different than what they’ve actually set out to accomplish…

I could say the same about you.  And please keep in mind, I am not defending anything they did in the past, nor am I defending what they are doing now.  But I can only watch and listen now, and so far what I have seen and heard is not bad.

10 hours ago, T-Bone said:

if folks never think outside wierwille’s theological box – they’ll never see how much of it actually goes at cross-purposes to Jesus Christ himself!

And I have already seen that they are working their way out of that box.

11 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Their goal seems pretty clear to me…they want to revive …reawaken an admiration of wierwille in others…to restore – to return to a former condition of what TWI used to be like under wierwille’s regime of power…revive…restore…or let’s just say re-animate  the bones of a dead hypocrite…

I haven't seen that happening.  In the beginning they wanted to do that with TWI, but now that they have completely severed ties with TWI, these folks seem more to be trying to revive and restore the 1st century church.  For instance, they taught that the tithe doesn't apply to us, and all of us is part of the body of Christ, and HE is the head, none of us are.

11 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Buyer beware, if it smells like the same old $hit that wierwille dished out – it probably is.

No, it doesn't smell like that at all to me.  There are several that still admire his teachings, but they aren't regurgitating them like TWI did, and they aren't trying to control anyone.  But time will tell.

12 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

BTW, if this group loves, VPW as you claim, how come his kids aren't involved with them??

I really couldn't say.  What I do understand is how heavily indoctrinated many of them were, and for a long time.  I'm sure that takes time to undo.  And while they do still admire VPW, I readily bring up my disagreements, when I have them, despite the adherence to his teachings that many of them have.  I have no real ties to them, so if they don't like that I contradict teachings and tell me I'm no longer welcome, so be it.  But so far, that hasn't happened.

13 hours ago, chockfull said:

So who exactly is the "us" and "them" here in this?

"Them" is the founding group and the others who signed the formal letter.  I believe that's about 18 people, or so.  And "us" is all the rest of us who just listen to the teachings on Sundays.

13 hours ago, chockfull said:

So since you brought it up, what was the disagreement you presented?  What group discussed it?

TWI taught that we are fellow workers with God, and I showed my understanding of that phrase to be God's fellow workers, as in FOR God, not with Him.  We discussed this on a discussion forum, several of the group chimed in, some demonstrating they didn't really understand it, others did, and saw that what I was saying made sense, and one of the original group agreeing with me flat out.

13 hours ago, chockfull said:

The "they" you mentioned have had "a few teachings" already on this?

No, not "on this", but correcting prior TWI teachings, such as Steven Longley correcting what "likeminded" is really about.  It was on one of the Sunday evening call-ins.

13 hours ago, chockfull said:

A lot of what I "claim" is simple conclusion from what the Bible says about faith and shipwrecks and such.

This is presumptuous and sidesteps my question.

14 hours ago, skyrider said:

Okay.......let's go down a checklist:

Let's.

"Incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW"......(your words).  Check - Agreed

Teaching wierwille-doctrine...... Not really.  For instance, Steven Longley did a great teaching on "likeminded", which did NOT follow what TWI propounded.  He showed, through his own research, that is has nothing to do with following what some "leader" wants, but rather what Jesus Christ wants.

1) Word takes place of absent Christ [Christ is absent?]; Hasn't happened  

2) Hierarchy positions to lord over others.....[why can't 'advanced class grads' be the leaders???]; There are no "leaders", per se, only the original group that handles the web site, and the teaching schedule. 

3) The Law of Believing.....[are they teaching this?  still?]; I haven't heard anything on this yet. The law of Love, yes.  

4) Ultra-dispensationalism.....thus, rendering the 4 gospels "for our learning"; I haven't heard anything on this yet either.  

5) Wierwille was THE man of God......and Our Father in the Word [like CFF gave allegiance/innuendo to for years!!]; They have not propounded this, but informally several have expressed their respect for many of his teachings of old, so old that I haven't heard them.  

6) Not willing to discuss or admit that wierwille was a plagiarist.....big time!!; I don't know what they did for their entire first year, and I was only partially following them from May 2017 to November.  So what they discussed and/or admitted is not known to me. 

7) Wierwille's "research" is the final authority....cannot challenge it; I have already challenged something with them, and there was a great discussion, and they were appreciative of my input. And as mentioned above, Longley contradicted his "research" already.  

8) Sexual predation by wierwille, martindale and others is well-documented; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group.  

9)  Corps coordinators were in lockstep-loyalty to wierwille and martindale.......and yeah, I'm looking at you Moneyhands, Forts, and Horneys; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group, but I know things like this can happen in a cult.  

10) The corps program was straight-up indoctrination.....and followship, NOT leadership!!! I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group.  Etc. etc. etc.  Check.

Centralization of power........authority is wielded by Ex-corps coordinators and corps.  Imagine that.  Check. The only "authority" demonstrated is in the handling of their web site.

No local church involvement........just "teaching the word."  Gawd, does it get MORE OBVIOUS??  Check. Because they are all scattered throughout the US, I have no way of knowing what they are all doing on a local level.  Do you?

No repentance to God......for hurting others and leading thousands astray.  Nope.  The past is past.  Check. How could anyone know if they have repented?

No accountability.........anybody can teach the damn propaganda.   I'd rather SEE the sermon.....  Check. So far I haven't heard any propaganda teachings, only some pretty deep teachings of the Word.

No reaching out to CFF, or CES, or other splinters......WHY do they want to start their OWN group?  $$$ and adulation.  Check. So far, they have been very specific they don't want money.  I haven't seen a desire for adulation, but I am not psychic.

Of course, other corps have followed them out the door.......but have they come clean?  Or joined another cult?  Check. I don't know how to respond to this one.

Cult institutionalized.......hanging with those who jumped ship when you did?  Is THAT the standard?  Check. My understanding of a cult includes control, but there are no words/actions or anything else in the way of control.

Stage #1.......Do NOT ask for money.  Build the following FIRST.  Every splinter does this.  Check. And this one, as far as I'm concerned, is something in the "wait and see" category. I would like that your are incorrect, but I know there is the possibility you are not.

11 hours ago, Rocky said:

It's not that we are 100 percent certain... but unless they demonstrate something out of the ordinary, we've pretty much got them pegged.

I understand completely why you would think that, and it is very possible you are correct.  But, unlike most of you, I am willing to give them a chance to prove themselves.  So far, other than their incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW, I have seen nothing in what they are doing that suggests they are following the mainstream offshoots.

25 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Are you their apologist on Greasespot?

Not at all.  I am merely stating my observations.

On 9/7/2018 at 3:49 AM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

If these facts “hurt” you Taxidev, it may be that “inner man” urging you to lighten up on some of that possible (though well-meaning) denial of the truth shared here at the GSC.

I'm not denying it at all.  Besides what you have shared here, others here have corroborated and others elsewhere have also corroborated.  While the depth of it surprised me, I doubted it only briefly, and I actually thanked you for being so forthcoming, if you recall.

It still surprises me, though, that anyone could have been close to the action like you were and still think so highly of him.  Is it possible the passing of so much time has fogged over their memories of vpw?

6 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Their actions and lack of them expose the gain or filthy lucre in their hearts to be over you as they were in the past.  It is their lust for position.  The lust for position and   function in a certain fashion they cannot curtail any more than a crack habit.

It seems to me that you have had no interaction with them at all, for you to make this claim.  I have been following them since May of 2017 and they have not once tried to tell us what to do or not do, other than that they don't want us to tithe to them.  And I think that's wonderful for two reasons: 1. The tithe doesn't apply to us, and 2. They aren't interested in our money.

So, if they have a lust for position they have a pretty funny way of going about it.

9 minutes ago, chockfull said:

The are not interested in other Christian input they know it all and have convinced themselves of their “calling”.

This is also incorrect.  I presented a disagreement, and it went into a group discussion, and they ended up thanking me for my input.  In fact, they have had a few teachings already that corrected things we all had learned from TWI.

So, I must ask, how are you so sure of what they are doing?

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Contact page to contact whom, then?

It's just your typical generic web site contact page.  I don't know where it goes because I haven't used it.