fredgrant

Told i was only welcome under certain conditions and requirements that i will not attempt to specifically recollect here. No doubt this specific type of situation has been recounted liberally across this site. Though painful and confusing and heart rending at the time, i now see it for the blessing in disguise it was. I truly loved so much about my time with twi, so many of the people, so much of the teaching. How the hell did it turn out to be so rotten inside?!! Love and compassion for people took second, third, or fourth place too often i see now. I hope things have changed, but i don't feel the need or desire to go find out.

I was surprised to receive the card today myself.....a measly 25 years or so after being marked and annoyed. What was missing though, was the apology. Not that an apology would make me believe that the real me would be welcome there. It would be quite nostalgic to check the old place out again though. However, nothing would be worth going back to putting on the blinders. they no doubt picked this program up from the Roman Catholics, who have been promoting a 'come home' program for some time now.

If i remember right it was "the man of God for our day, time, and hour!"

There are some people who believe that the Roman Catholic church has some traditions and concepts that are not rooted in scripture. A good starting point for evaluating spiritual advice might be, "does scripture matter?" Oh my goodness, then you have to ask, "what is scripture?" I haven't seen the concept of limbo in what I believe to be scripture. For now I think of of it more as a dance you do trying to get under a stick.

its ok if you don't get Mike to say he's wrong. Really, it is. Try to let it go.

Well as the Bible says, the love of God IS keeping His commandments, so the only reason to do the right thing is because you love God and it's the right thing to do. I don't always succeed, but it is because sometimes I am still a slave to the flesh Rom. 7. God tells us about our lives to help us to a more worthy endeavor.

Well if you look at the records in the Bible that Mike is talking about, it is obvious that he is right about one thing - God often uses imperfect men to do big jobs for Him, in fact not only often, but ALWAYS except for in the case of Jesus. That being said, the issue is did God select VPW as a big job worker? Because the focus of the Way International was POWER, and not the cross of Christ, his impact was quite distorted from the gospel that the New Testament canon puts forth. It was a grand case of 'cherry picking' scriptures to assemble a cistern to imprison human beings in. That being said, I do not believe it was VPs intention to mislead about the Word. I think he was mostly just mislead himself and it snowballed into something bigger than himself, eventually dragging him along for the ride.....just thinking out loud.

Amen

If you haven't seen this, it is pretty interesting and informative, although maybe a little dramatic..

Indeed, and us is.................. Colossians 1:20 KJV And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. its where no child left behind must have come from

I realize that some people may not believe in big Xs and little xs (ie. sins) but if there are, one of the big Xs is definitely the teaching that there is not serious judgment awaiting certain born-again believers, especially leadership who abuse positions. To whom much is given, much is expected. The lie of no punishment for believers because.......grace, is one of the nastiest told ever. I am confident the Lord is able to straighten it out.

Yes indeed, that is an excellent point! We have to judge/evaluate/measure in order to move forward(or even backward....or sideways). The known standards we choose will guide our own works and fruit. Words and actions are works and produce fruit of one kind or another.

POWER POWER POWER! As I posted somewhere else, the very name of the class Power for Abundant Living is a huge clue to the misdirection of the gospel of Jesus Christ provided therein. Did Jesus talk about power? Sure. Was it the dominant theme of his ministry? Absolutely not. His was a message of selfless service in love. Interesting that “all nine all the time” is mentioned above. Even on the face of it it is ridiculous and it is a wonder it ever became a catchphrase. Even the classes taught that 6 of the manifestations in 1 Cor. 12 could only be ‘operated’ by God’s prerogative. Really starting down a rabbit hole, just because there are nine manifestations of Holy Spirit listed consecutively in a reproof epistle should not cause someone to assume that there are only nine. Manifestation simply means evidence, and even a cursory reading of the church epistles show that the primary manifestation of the spirit is love. The gospels confirm this, and it is the glue that holds the entire Bible together. In truth, Paul notes in 1 Cor. 13 that manifestations not produced and governed by love are nothing but lying signs and wonders. Focusing on manifestations as something you can ‘operate’ instead of realizing that what they are is the love of God being shed abroad leads to nothing but confusion and every evil work. I cannot judge VPs heart, or LCM’s - just because they were big shots at one time does not mean that they were not misled. Unbelievers are not enemies, they are merely more people who need Gods grace and mercy, just like me. Evil works and putrid fruit, however, are manifestations of something other than Holy Spirit.

56. Because someone who threw out all their biblical research materials still wants to be called "Dr".

Sorry, Sir. I'm all out of Lo Shantas. Could I interest you in previously owned Lo Maka Seetay, perhaps? Hmmmm... it hasn't been smoked in has it?

It started out with broad, grand statements like the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God, but quickly devolved into a spiritual bonsai tree, with nutrition stunted, light limited, and limbs pruned and tied off into grotesque caricature of their natural development. The result bore little resemblence to the gospel the Lord had brought, lived, and died for. It is no wonder that so many people, gazing back at a life they were so invested in, are not merely puzzled, but horrified, at the ways in which they were misled. Fortunately, God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will, so we can be assured that the wrongs will be righted and the tears wiped away.

It was Nathan taking the place of the absent Mike.

Yep seems like you have to look at what somebody does to know whether they believe what they're saying... if there was ever a poster boy for galvanizing and polarizing strategies Jesus would qualify. It's interesting in light of that the records are ambiguous enough that people can wonder whether or not he was a trinitarian.

I apologize. I assumed since you brought it up you considered it relevant. I will try to be more careful

Hmmm - where did you get that little gem?

'Christ’ is literally ‘anointed’. Jesus said he had to leave so that his disciples could receive their own anointing(John 16:7). So what was his anointing? (Luke 4:18, AV) “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,” The anointing a believer has is to preach the Word, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and to become a servant as he was. Perhaps this is what was meant by the Word taking the place of the absent Christ,though it was perhaps worded in a way that is easily misunderstood. There were some aspects of the Way International teaching that possibly distracted from Jesus’ approach to the gospel Although I can’t say VPW knew he was misleading in some things he taught, his approach to the scripture was quite narrow and perhaps distorted by his own longing. The main foundation for the Way International was ‘Power For Abundant Living’. He built a broken cistern on Chapters 12 and 14 of 1 Corinthians, a reproof epistle. Power really appeals to the natural man. What’s interesting about that is that Chapter 13, the middle of the ‘sandwich’ is where most of the spiritually nutritional value comes. "Love, Service, Giving, Obedience, and Humility for Abundant Living" just doesn’t have the same ring to it as "Power for Abundant Living"…

Since the great majority of the over 41,000 ‘Christian’ denominations declare the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I will risk 'resurrecting' this dormant thread. One of the great reasons there are so many gospels(or denominations as many people call them) is that very few people are willing to put up with God as He reveals Himself in the Bible, so they form Him to suit their desires. This involves adding to, subtracting from, changing, or just misunderstanding, the scriptures. It is interesting that ‘faith vs superstition’ is under discussion here, because the reason I first ‘made a ripple’ here was to post a link on a thread about Acts 17 To the unknown God. Coincidentally(yeah right), Paul begins his discourse to the Athenians with superstition(v. 22), and ends with faith(v. 31). Superstition is how man makes the gods he wants, and faith is what God gives a man to allow or cause him to believe in the resurrection. The Bible also says(Rom. 10:17) that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. A person may hear enough to have faith, but deviations in doctrines after the basic faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ are abundant, mostly because few people are happy with God as He describes Himself, so they change Him into something else. There are also obviously some who spend time, perhaps a lifetime, in church(es) without ever being sure of the resurrection, because that's what those around them are doing. The really good news(which is rarely preached or believed) is that Jesus Christ has been tasked with reconciling all of creation unto himself, and thereby to God. He always does the Father’s will, so we can rest assured he will not leave us hanging. In the grand scheme of things therefore, no matter what ‘flavor’ of Christianity we end up with(or without), God’s loving arms are long enough and strong enough to catch us and hold us close.

some additional interesting info... https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/introducing-the-athenians-to-god-pauls-failed-apologetic-in-acts-17/