Charity

Yes, but I heard it taught in twi without, I think, any mention of Oral Robert. The thought just came to me that this topic was discussed on GSC and with a search, it shows 160 places where it has. So, my question was how did the continuity of this idea make its way all through the OT. This is one of the points that was used to show God had to have been its author.

Yes, I also see that Genesis 3 is a story and a lot more than just that one chapter as well. What I still wonder about is how the man-made story called the "red thread" of the messiah was kept going through all the years of the OT writings. Any comments or suggestions?

To clarify, it is obvious that we have free will. My point for the above statement is that Adam and Eve had a perfect and loving relationship with God until Lucifer entered into the picture. Then, they were tempted by the great and cunning tempter and chose the fruit over God. The issue for me is why in this biblical record was there even a need for Adam and Eve to make a choice. More precisely, why did God need to put the forbidden-to-eat tree in the garden in the first place? In a perfect world like the garden of Eden, would needing to obey someone be a necessary part of proving your love for that someone? If so, that would make the definition of love obedience. I ask these questions because of the firm belief Christians have to argue that Adam and Eve chose to disobey God thereby putting the focus for the corruption of the world on them and not on God who designed the whole scenario to be set up this way in the first place. Mankind became nothing but degenerate sinners, impure and evil instead of imperfect (to varying degrees) human beings, and God became their glowing necessary savior. IMO, Genesis 3 is either a true record of a god which continues to demand obedience to this day, or it is a story that ancient mankind came up with to explain the pain and suffering in the world.

Raf, below is a website on the death of Stephen in the book of Acts. It’s from the website called Vridar. It references quite a bit the book “Acts and Christian Beginnings: The Acts Seminar Report Paperback – Sept. 23 2013” https://vridar.org/2013/11/26/the-fiction-of-stephen-the-first-martyr/ Was there one or two resources you looked at when researching this topic?

I haven't found scripture that mentions 5 days yet, but here's one that mentions 2. Exodus 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. I have skimmed through 6 commentaries on these verses; 3 of them only talked about verse 20 and the other three had different "justifiable" explanations for verse 21. It's too much to stomach.

Wow - I found your thread from 2014 which garnered over 600 replies. I'll check it out. I also found your thread "Ten Years of Unbelief" which I plan to read after replying. As horrible as the curses listed in Deuteronomy 28 are, the support of them by apologists is just as disgusting. I think verse 63 in that chapter says a lot: "And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goes to possess it. It's not that I think as a mere mortal that I have the right to criticize a biblical almighty and creator God, it's that I no longer believe that such a horrible god truly exists.

That's interesting cman because God could have locked Lucifer and the fallen angels in chains forever at the time of their rebellion just like Revelation says he will do for a thousand years. What was God's reason for letting Lucifer remain free? The bible doesn't give one, but here's the thing. Adam and Eve didn't turn their backs on God's goodness and disobey him all on their own? They had no "sin nature" and did not know evil so they would have no reason to do so. They, and all of their descendants, could have known and loved God as well as enjoyed God's blessings. God could have delighted in them just as we delight in our children. (And no, they would not have been robots, otherwise those with eternal life in a future place where there is no more sin would also be robots.) But that apparently wasn't good enough for God. He needed and therefore demanded their obedience and that's where Lucifer comes in. Only when the serpent deceived Eve (which he was very "gifted" at according to Gen 3:1) did his temptation result in their sin. Even though I used to believe this, I am so tired now of hearing how sin and death came into the world because God so loved mankind that he gave them free will, and since man chose to disobey God, what happened as a result is totally their fault.

How about these: Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform (complete) it until the day of Jesus Christ: Phil 2:13 For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me. Phil 4: 19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. And because of the above promises, here is my favorite: Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power. Here is something written recently by someone who believes in this verse and says they have seen this power in their life. It is part of a prophecy they are giving from the Lord. Oh, to have the faith of this person. (Btw, what is spoken about faith is according to scripture.) "But if you have faith in God, you will command the impossible, and you will need to do just that in the work I am sending you. I am sending you my Children to gather the sheep that remain, for many will come to me in these last minutes and I will not deny them, but I passionately search for them still. Open your mouths in faith and stand for me and minister to my Children. I have told you how to wield my power, but you refuse my instruction, so I will tell the forgetful among you once again. Why do you sheepishly ask a spirit to leave its host with stuttering lips and using my name Jesus Christ in a faithless manner? Do not use my name in vain! Command the spirits in my name with great faith and have faith in the words that I will give you, and the evil spirits will depart by my power through you! Why do you timidly ask sickness to leave when you should speak to the sickness in confidence in my name and command the impossible in my name and heal the sick.

Warning: Getting personal here Although I have been feeling relief from not having to please a god anymore so he would answer prayers, I woke up this morning feeling an emptiness knowing that he was no longer my source of love. Not wanting to get up, I laid there and came to realize that the only option left was to love myself – not love me because God loved me, but to love me as in “it's all up to me now” and surprisingly, this was okay with me. My core belief of being unlovable since childhood was always the reoccurring great need in my life for seeking after God's acceptance and love. Now, accepting that I am the sole person responsible for loving who I am seems to have come with an unforeseen benefit. The emotional connection I had to my childhood pain is no longer there. Here is why I think this happened . For a while now (and for periods over the years), I felt guilty for not trusting God enough, not walking by the spirit or power of God enough, not speaking his word boldly enough, etc., and all of this meant, according to Paul's epistles, I was not being "enough" for God . It was the exact same guilt I had as a kid for not being "enough" to make my dad want to stop drinking. I realize now that my two reasons for guilt had melded together in that the spiritual guilt reinforced my childhood guilt. Pretty deep, eh . Coming to believe recently that the epistles, with all the hype of what we are called to be and to do, were not inspired by God but written by a man. This blew up my spiritual belief of not being enough. Being free of that guilt allowed me to see there was actually nothing left of the self blame I carried as a child. Thankfully, freedom is no longer needing to . (I'm also thankful for the little emoji guys to help me tell my story.)

You're saying then that because the bible says he was sent by God means he was a manipulator just as God was. Cool - I can definitely see this. I've been listening to videos about how much Paul included teachings of Plato almost word for word in his writings which contradicts his saying that what he taught was not of men but by revelation from Jesus Christ. It's called "Paul or Plato? The Bible's Shady Origins" by Justin Best. I don't want to spend a lot of time researching whether the many examples shown on the video are accurate, but other videos have also focused on issues with his writings. A deconstruction of Paul's epistles is one way to see how the bible is not valid as a source of truth.

Justin Best begins talking about Paul at 60 minutes into the video. He credits his deconstruction of Paul with his eventual deconversion. He also talks about the following people whose works he studied and some of whom he has had conversations. Has anyone come across these names in their research? Dr. Richard Carrier: wrote Jesus from Outer Space and On the Historicity of Jesus Tovia Singer: an American Orthodox rabbi who teaches how Jesus could not have been the Messiah Dr. Dennis MacDonald: proposes a theory wherein the earliest books of the New Testament were responses to the Homeric Epics, including the Gospel of Mark and the Acts of the Apostles Homer’s Odyssey, inspiration for book of Mark, Paul copied Aristotle, Plato 1:40:00 Thersites the Historian: a youtube channel connecting Jesus with Thersites

I've heard a few different people take issues with Paul's epistles. Have you learned something about him or his writings that makes him out to be a manipulator?

Thanks Raf. Two events were happening at the same time that caused me to look into the Bible's reliability and validity. My grandson's health issues which were getting worse didn't make me angry - I was more hurt and definitely wondering how does God answer prayers. Plus, the recent solar eclipse with all the "prophesies" and warnings about the end times attached to it made me seriously question the wrath of God shown in the Bible. So, I began watching some videos by Bart Ehrman about problems in the text which included Paul's writings, as well as MindShift which dealt more with the negative characteristics of God shown in the Bible. With the former, I had problems with some of what he said and with the latter, it's clear that believers/apologists have answers to justify everything God or Jesus did. I also began reading threads on this particular forum, and I remember one where you shared about the history of what was known about Jesus in the first century. I want to go back and read through it again. I'm sure it took time from beginning to end where you were became certain about things. How did you handle the "what-if-I'm-wrong" worries during that time, if you had any?

Your second sentence is funny cman - thanks for laugh! I used to love that verse.

Without getting into Bible verses, the violence in the Old Testament (“crimes” for which God prescribes the death penalty, God’s anger and wrath in punishing his people, and God’s command to the Israelites to commit genocide), as well as God’s need for Christ to suffer and be crucified to save us from the sin He made to pass unto all mankind, and the concept of the lake of fire (whatever that is) in Revelation are so way over the top, I don’t want to believe any of it is true. Since the first 2 have already happened, that leaves the final one to have to consider. The fact that so many Christians justify God’s judgments in Revelation and therefore are intent on scaring people into accepting Christ to avoid these judgments is disturbing in and of itself. Plus, I’m hearing more and more that “once saved, always saved” is a false doctrine which means even more people will be added to the lake of fire. Is the moral objection to the terror depicted in the great tribulation as well as the final judgments enough to say Revelation had to have been conceived by men and not inspired by God?

Since following the exposure of clergy abuse and sexual abuse in the International House of Prayer Kansas City, I have discovered how important the great commission is to many protestant churches, especially the evangelical ones.

Again, I find this fascinating because when I began to deconvert, I did not want to give up on the idea that the world was created by a powerful being leaving evolution as the only other option. The beauty of nature and the incredible way our bodies work and the order of the universe are all realities I marvel at - thinking that it all evolved on its own seems too incredulous. (I admit though, I have not studied the theory of evolution.) Thanks Nathan for sharing about your mother.

I find this all so amazing. I hope you don't mind if I ask another question. Has she shared with you whether she believes in heaven or hell? Witnessing was such an obligation in twi, although I don't think it was ever called evangelism. The focus was on moving the word over the world via selling the class to people, not on God's commandment to go out and make disciples (i.e., the great commission of Matt 28:19-10). Feeling the need to get those you care for to accept Christ and be born again can be very stressful when they are not interested in doing so. Your mother seems free from the anxiety that burden brings. I never believed a Christian like your mother could ever exist, but as I walk away from more of the teachings of the Bible, I can see now how it's possible.

I admit that one of the hardest thing for me to let go of from twi is that there is only one "truth" which meant you are right and everyone else is wrong. This is why I appreciate what you wrote above about having opinions. One definition of opinion is "a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence." The same website defines belief as "Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values." If belief is a personal conviction one holds about an issue, does it then become an opinion when discussing the issue with others who think differently?

It sounds like she's not burdened down with the issue of "sin" or striving to believe enough to please God. That would make a difference. I find it hard for her to be like this though if she goes to a church. Does she?

You're right - it's the first game of hide and seek ever played.

It's just that the horrendous acts of God's wrath in the O.T. and the wrath of God that Jesus spoke of in the Gospels and revealed to John in Revelation are so different from the grace and salvation from God's wrath that Paul writes about in his epistles. However, despite what Bullinger and Wierwille taught about focusing on what is written to us, it does not change the truth that in the Bible disobeying God is a very frightening thing.

Thanks for your post Rocky. I haven't considered too deeply yet what the meaning of life is if the God of the Bible does not exist. There was usually much joy in my life from knowing a loving God and Father as well as real comfort from knowing an empathetic and strengthening Christ. But things have become so complicated lately around prayer and God's past and future wrath that my spiritual life was becoming more and more confusing and oppressive. I think Nathan's post above holds some good ideas on how to rethink living life.

Thanks for your reply. I did mention some promises written to the body of Christ in 1 John 3:21-23 and 1 John 5:14-15. Unlike the gospels, the Pauline epistles are mostly about the promises given to us because of who we are and what we have in the resurrected Christ. You see mention or examples of Eph 3:20 (also included in my post) with Peter, Stephen and Paul in the book of Acts as you noted. The “power that works in us” is the condition in this verse so one has to know what this accurately means. Concerning Philippians 4:6-7, you wrote about taking things to God and then leaving them with him and that regardless of whatever does or doesn’t subsequently come to pass in this life, we have the peace of God that passes all understanding. The “regardless part” is not part of these 2 verses, but it is something that Christians seem to add to cover for when our requests are not answered. What happens after Christ returns and for all eternity are based on the scriptures, so trusting God’s word is a criterion for these to be meaningful. I started this thread as a way to work through issues to help me know whether the Bible is truly the word of God and therefore trustworthy or if it is the work of men. There is much to consider.

One more thing about Genesis 3… Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou was naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou should not eat? Did God really not know what had happened until Adam told him? Did God not know the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve? Did he not foreknow that the serpent would try to tempt Eve? According to Paul, 4 thousand years later, God knew about Christ’s redeeming blood and that we’d be chosen of him before the foundation of the world. So why was Genesis 3:10 written this way? Another thing, did God even warn Adam and Eve about Satan and how crafty, subtle and evil he was? There is no record of him doing so. So Eve is deceived by the serpent and decides to eat of the fruit giving it also to Adam who believing Eve (or for some other unstated reason), decides to eat as well. Could there have been a different outcome if Eve knew she was talking to a great deceiver? This is why I believe this record in Genesis is a story made up by man to explain why there was such evil in the world. How could a truly all-knowing and perfectly loving God have been so asleep at the wheel as well as so punitive to have let this all play out as it did? The wrath of God is something to consider as well.