My3Cents

I haven't been here in a while but decided to respond because I knew Geer before the way (I was in high school with him) and I knew him all thru our time in the way and also was on the phone line when he read the patriarch paper. And I was at the clergy meeting when he confronted Craig and the board in 1986 (I think that's when it was). Anyway - my opinion is that you can't read too much into why he did this or did that. He was a lunatic. Mentally deranged. He probably thought he had some rational reasons but every kook thinks that. It's like people trying to read logic into some of the stuff vpw did when it was just his alcoholism speaking. Geer looked like he was doing a power grab but then he didn't. Who knows why. Maybe he didn't want the responsibility of fixing it once he broke it. This way he could just stand on the side and toss bombs. Maybe he was just reacting out of emotion. I'm sure he THOUGHT he was doing the right thing and something spiritual and logical. But 80% of Americans think they are above average drivers. Go figure. Have a nice day.

Most fundamentalists of any stripe (way people included) see things in black or white. For us or against us. So it's unlikely that the way people your girlfriend wants to have in her life at any level (friends, casual acquaintances, "normal" family relationships) - it's unlikely they will permit that unless she goes along with what they want her to do - not question, go to fellowship etc. Ultimately she'll have to choose to stay involved with them on their terms or not at all - because they probably won't be flexible enough to accept her on her terms. It will be hard decision for her to make, but time away will allow her to make it with a clearer head. Good luck.

Here's where I think it started - and with many way things, it grew out of hand. But here's my story, if I can remember back that far. I was in the 5th corps, our 2nd year in residence was the 1st year that Emporia was functional. For all our big meetings and classes we met in the upstairs of what used to be the library (it was a modern style building with big glass windows). The corps was divided up into several branches and one at a time was in charge of setting up the chairs and other stuff for meetings. That responsibility rotated every few weeks. As I recall the front of the room was either looking out toward the street or out the back of the building. But the way the building was designed, with support pillars etc it was not possible for everyone to have a good view of the podium. A good friend of mine was in charge of another branch and when his branch got the job of doing set up they closed the building for a while and "unveiled" an new way of laying it out with the podium on one of the "sides" of the building instead of the "end". That way looked a bit unusual but more people got better views and more chairs could be set up. I think that because of the unusual orientation with regards to the walls and pillars, it was smart to use string to lay out the rows of chairs. From there it became mandatory to use string for everything. That's just my recollection of over 30 years ago (I'm guessing it was 1977). Hope that helps.

Wow, you're painting with a very broad brush there. I know some kids who are better off after their parents divorce. I know of other kids who are not well prepared for adulthood even though their parents stay together. As for what would happen if TWI sprung up today? Well the culture is different, so the trappings of the cults are different. Some kids today are led into bible believing cults by their parents. I think the one in Wasilla Alaska has some pretty strange beliefs. There will always be people (well meaning and otherwise) who want people to follow them blindly - and there will always be people who are willing to for a time. In some cases that time will be short, in other cases long. Just my 2 cents and 1 for inflation.

Seeing "the books" wouldn't really explain much. It's pretty easy to organize a chart of accounts so that the financial statements are perfectly legal but don't really explain what's going on. Even public companies do it.

Keep in mind that vpw was an alcoholic, albeit a reasonably functional one. People with that condition have a couple of traits in common. They are very good at hiding what's really going on and presenting a good front to the public. This is easier if they are in charge (of a family, a business, a cult) and harder if they are, say an employee. Secondly alcoholics usually are impulsive and emotional - their decision are based on this not always logic. Looking back you can see patters, but that doesn't mean they did what they did because they thought it through. He probably believed his own bull stuff Most meglomaniacs do. So I wouldn't read too much logic into the history of things.

I have several disjointed thoughts on the matter. I think one sign of healing if you've been abused is that you come to grips with the fact that the abuser may never change - but you can move on. That is very empowering. I've not been in a 12 step program but I believe one of the steps is to make amends to people - but they say to do it in a way that won't make their life worse. So sometimes that means not getting in touch with them. Many people leave the way but join a splinter group that teaches much the same thing about power and abuse (maybe not sex abuse but emotional). So if you were hurt by them, obviously you won't get much satisfaction. I'd feel weird if someone from the past who I was not currently communicating with reached out just to say sorry. I'd think they were doing it for themselves not really for me. But my level of being hurt in the way was minor compared to some of the stories I've learned about. I didn't abuse anyone sexually and I tried not to be an .... with my position while I was in. But I'm sure I lead people astray and did hurt them. As I've bumped into people here in the "afterlife" I have apologized at times and often it was met with "No, what you did saved my life" or some other form of disconnect. I don't always know how to take this. So just my 2 cents and one for inflation.

Jeff, Keep up the good work. My boys were a bit older when I divorced (10 and 11). There were no fellowships or splinter groups involved (ex and I were both out years before) but she had some, let's just say, issues and went ballistic pitting the kids against me. Especially a year later when I got involved with the woman I'm now married to. If you don't stoop to her level it will have a very positive effect. Also if you show that you are not hurt or worried that "mom doesn't like you very much" it shows the kids that people can have their own opinions and it won't affect your relationship with your son. Two things young kids want to know about in that situation are 1) that the break up is not their fault - they have a natural tendency to think it is. And 2) that you are going to be there for them and be their parent regardless of the marriage breaking up. You can (and should) tell them these things explicitly (and repeatedly) plus by not putting him in the middle of what's going on with your ex you show him that you mean it. It also helps to show (and tell him) that he's entitled to feel anything he feels - but that's different from acting on anything he feels. Help him give names to his feelings and make it safe for him to talk about them so he can act appropriately and separate his actions from his feelings. Something else - if you are the more stable parent, at different stages he may feel the need to cling more to her or favor her. This is normal and actually an indication that he knows he can trust you not to disappear but he may not feel that way about her. It doesn't feel good when this happens but it often indicates his reliance on you. Of course it's usually non-conscious and something he can't articulate, which makes it more frustrating but hang in there. I don't know if your ex is abusive or has real problems that affect your son. If that's the case you may need to acknowledge that some things are not right in her life. You have to do this in a way that walks the fine line between explaining to him what's going on (in age appropriate language of course) and yet not putting him in the middle of "your stuff". If that's happening you probably want some advice from a professional about this. I have read of a study with abused kids about why some abused kids grow up to be abusers themselves, and some do not. They concluded that the difference was if a kid had an adult who knew what was going on and could talk about it - maybe an aunt, or teacher - even if that adult couldn't stop the abuse. The adult became what was termed an "impotent witness" and was able to give the kid some perspective that the fault was totally that of the abuser and allowed the kid to deal with it and mature more normally. Hope this helps and as I said -keep up the good work. Remember you're in this for the long haul. In just two years you'll see how different a seven year old is from a five year old (and you'll have mellowed as well) but remember you're laying the foundation for a great relationship with your son that lasts decades.

I agree with your last sentence that there can be learning despite political views. However there is evidence that McCain did not heal as well as your sources have indicated. People who served with him in the war and even were imprisoned with him have said that he still has problems with rage and impulsiveness. Some of those military people have said that his temper is the reason they won't vote for him because they don't want his hand on "the button". There is also evidence that he stood in the way of families of other soldiers getting details or remains of their loved ones who died in the Vietnam war and that some of his trips over there were in part to keep some information out of the hands of other Americans. There are also reports of his rage against members of his staff and members of the Senate and also heavy gambling addiction. You can google these and determine for yourself if the sources are credible, but some are nationally recognized media sources.

Does anyone know what the way leaders are telling their way-bots as far as who to vote for? When I was in they always did - even though they tried to couch it in neutral terms so they wouldn't loose their tax exempt status (though that didn't always work). And, it was always for the republican. Any insights from the inside this time? PS - I'm not interested in turning this thread in to a discussion of your political views or mine. Nothing personal. I just want to know what the way is telling their flock, if anyone knows.

In the way we were always told what our reaction to everything should be - and it was always black or white. Part of finding "yourself" again is just to notice how things feel - without judgment. That doesn't mean everything you feel is good (or bad) it just is what it is. Some things we feel in our bodies, some we feel emotionally. A lot of things besides your time in the way can disconnect us from what we feel (stress, living too fast etc). So an exercise to help you reconnect is called mindfulness. Google mindfulness - you'll see it used a lot with mediation and eastern religions but it doesn't have to be done as part of that. It's just noticing what's going on in your body, your mind, your emotions and sometimes naming what's happening without trying to judge or change it. I'm not saying you have to live always like that - or that you should never try to change what's going on and certainly you shouldn't always ACT on what you feel. But the first step is just to notice. It may sound simple but it's not as easy as it sounds. Hope that helps.

Of course. And most heart attacks could be avoided if people stopped smoking, ate right, and exercised. Most automobile accidents could be avoided if people didn't drive while drunk, tired, or distracted and drove safely at all times. In other words, if people acted as they "should" lots of bad things wouldn't happen. As for guns at TWI - I got out in the mid- 1980's. I never saw guns used for intimidation (but there was less of that back then). However I lived at HQ in the trailers with a couple guys who worked for vpw. One was his driver (before Chris Geer) and another I think drove another bus. One was cleaning/playing with his gun in the house and it went off. But bullet went through the wall - probably missing the head of other guy in the next room by inches. The attitude was "no harm, no foul" but it was pretty scary.

The belief that there is such a thing a Truth with a capital T. And that it's possible for anyone to know it. Saying "I know" when you should say "I believe"

I agree. Except for Chris Geer (and that was a long long time ago) any major disruption to the way has come from people who left filing suit. It's not like people in the way to rise up and demand things. People who want to do that usually leave. Plus my guess is that Rosalie has her libido under control and is making sure that she and current leadership don't to anything to put themselves at risk from future law suits. I have no evidence of this, but I did know her when I was in and it's just my opinion. Of course they can keep the property as long as they function under the laws and the IRS restrictions of being a 501 ©3 organization just like every other church, college, hospital and other non profit. I don't see how the family would have any legal claim to it. When VPW owned it, he had the right to do whatever he wanted with it. He decided to give it away to a non profit organization that he also happened to run. That kind of thing happens all the time with family foundations etc. The group owns it now. There's nothing the family can do.

Many people think they are attracted to something because of the qualities of the something: I'm in love with my wife because she's the perfect one for me OR I follow the way because it's the calling of god. I believe we are attracted to things because of the connection between who we are, what we like, want, need on the one hand, and the thing on the other hand. Some people just love cabbage. Others can't be in the same room with it. The cabbage is no different. I think the "big" attractions - our loves, our callings etc function in a similar way - a combination of what's driving us and what they offer. So in answer to the question about de-waying, it depends on them, what in them was attracted to the way and how ready they are to deal with that. If they don't change that, and just get out of the way, they'll have the same longing, desire etc and be attracted by something else that meets that need. It may look similar (like a spin off) or it may look very different, but the interaction of them and the thing will probably have similar emotional tones to it. If they do change who they are and what's driving them, then they can adapt much quicker and more completely. And they'll be attracted to other things, people etc. Hopefully more healthy ones. - Just my 2 cents and one for inflation.

Yes. And no, the person I referred to wasn't Dan McConaughy

Back to the original question about they way's research department. I never worked there, but I was friends with people who did (back in the 1980-86 time frame). One person told me point blank that when VPW knew what the scripture "had to say" it was their job to find texts to substantiate it. And he didn't find anything wrong with that - of course neither did I. It now sounds a lot more like propaganda than research. He also told me they knew some of VPW's translations that were used in the PFAL class were wrong - or at least could not be substantiated by any known research book. The library did not contain any actual original manuscripts - those being mostly in museums. But they did have some books that were compilations of them as well as other books you might find in a divinity school. I know of one guy who worked there after getting a degree from an actual university in a related field (aramaic I think but it's been a while) and he would help out in the research department, but would never let anything be published with his name on it because he knew it would taint his standing in the academic community which he wanted to get back to some day. I don't know if he ever did.

I didn't read the article but have read several books about how feelings and perceptions and even consciousness work. For anyone who cares to read more on the topic, some suggestions are: Kluge: The Haphazard Construction of the Human Mind by Gary Marcus Fooled by Randomness: The Hidden Role of Chance in Life and in the Markets by Nassim Nicholas Taleb Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions by Dan Ariely The User Illusion: Cutting Consciousness Down to Size (Penguin Press Science) by Tor Norretranders They are all science books but you don't have to be a scientist to understand them. You do have to have an understanding of the benefits (and limitations) of experiments or you'll probably get very frustrated.

Sunesis, Never underestimate the power of sex appeal. You were a hot babe in those days (probably still are). It's amazing to me in reading this thread (among others) how often and how strongly people base their beliefs on an explanation they've ascribed to a feeling they had. And how much they are willing to change the normal definitions of words (talk, hear, angel) when they do so. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I was in the 5th corps and I knew people for several corps later and I never heard this. I suppose that most of the people sexually picked on were not terribly active sexually before that (many were married and others probably tried to be celibate) so my guess is the risk of STDs was a lot smaller than it might have been with the same number of partners in the population at large. I think if VPW's antics were the results of late term syphilis there would have been a huge outbreak of same and I'd never heard of that at all so I don't think that idea fits with the evidence.

It actually depends on you - the kind of abuse you suffered, why and for how long you put up with it, how you dealt with it, what you're going through now, and what you want the outcome to be. In general (not knowing any of those details about you) I would recommend a therapist who has experience dealing with ex-cult members. If you have supportive family who is out perhaps they can help - if they're supportive. Don't do anything that feels like you're being forced - it's the same old thing again. Best wishes on your journey.

Good points about boundaries, Sunesis. You seem to have a lot of wisdom on this topic. I have a slightly different experience about TWI friendships. True it was easy to make friends in the way - it's what's called a "closed society" where what you do encompasses every part of your life - work, social, even family. Some police and military folks live like that. But I found after I got out that what I thought were really deep friendships in the way were pretty superficial. We had a lot of fun and did cool stuff - but never talked about our true selves (because the way wouldn't approve of us knowing our true selves) so my connections, in retrospect were more superficial than I thought at the time.

Those numbers don't fit with my experience. The people I know who give the most are agnostics by belief. In fact for this kind of poll I think any gift that's expected as part of a church membership or (worse) taught by clergy that you should give so much is not at all the same kind of giving that I'm talking about - I'm talking about gifts of money, and in some cases whole family foundations created to do things that they believe will make the world a better place for future generations. And why did that survey leave out so many other religious groups? Jews that I know give a lot. I'm not familiar enough with any Muslims or Buddhists or Taosist or pagans to know what their giving habits are but I think they should be included in a survey.

Sorry if this is a repeat - I don't have a lot of time but I saw the thread title and wanted to give my story. I was 5th corps and we were not told anything about how it worked but a year (i think) after we graduated we were sent a letter at corps week inviting us to be ordained if we felt it was appropriate. I assume everyone still "standing" got one. It was funny - the 5th corps started as the first big corps and ended as the last small group. But we were so big there were barely enough clergy for each of us to find one to lay hands on. I remember a discussion w/ Don Weirwille about the process a few years later. He said it was remarkable that some people he would not have suspected responded positively to those letters and surprised him. I guess that was the pattern for a few years - get people to graduate the corps, give them a year on the field to see if they stuck around and ask them if they want to be ordained. And I was very young (to respond to the other post) maybe 24. My first and last official acts as clergy were both funerals - a funny coincidence. Hope that helps.

I've been out of the way for longer than I was in it - yet I knew of more people who committed suicide while I was in. Obviously that's not a scientific sample. I think it speaks to the emotionally wounded state of us (and I include myself) who were attracted to such a cult - and also to the fact that much of what was done in the way had the effect of exacerbating the problems we had rather than helping. Some of this was due to ignorance, some to selfishness and callousness and some by design (in my opinion). On top of that, the suicides were never mentioned as such and some other cause was always given as the official story - a gun accident, a mis-dosage of medication or in the case of Sandra Sullivan (if I recall correctly) that she fell asleep in her car with the engine running by accident. This covering up was by design: to avoid people looking into the individual causes but also to make it seem like way followers were better than they were, and that of course the doctrine was always right. The whole thing was disgusting.