Oakspear

Popped in here after checking The Way's website. Way Ambassadors? Is that a retread of WOW Ambassadors and/or Way Disciples? 

I just went through all my old Messenger messages...found the one where you messaged me about being an agnostic

On 12/10/2022 at 7:13 AM, Mike said:

For years Oakspear had a question here: 
How come the devil was able to come up with seed for humans before God did?

Has anyone worked that question?
Is Oakspear still hanging out once in a while here?

Not very often, but I was tipped off that my name had been mentioned...

1 hour ago, Raf said:

The only thing that passes me off is that the word "vaccine" is in quotes in the thread title.

It works. It's the reason we were able to return to some normalcy. 

You have a better chance of fighting off the disease after the vaccine than you do if you catch the disease and survive it.

You can argue faith v. science all you want, but putting "vaccine" in quotes is an act of utter ignorance.

 

Thank you

I was just about ask why it was in quotes

20 years ago this weekend my first wife threw me out. I had been invited to leave active participation in TWI a few months previously. With her Waybrain thinking patterns, she convinced herself that she was "unequally yoked". This was not a surprise, as we had been having marriage trouble for several years, and for her, me being kicked out of TWI was the last straw.

Ex-Mrs. Oakspear was one of those Wayfers who was convinced that her own interpretation of "The Word" was the correct one, no matter what local leadership or anyone else thought. She regularly conducted private M&A against other Way people, refusing to have anything to do with anyone who she deemed "off the Word". She enthusiastically latched on to Martindale's ant-gay hysteria, seeing "homo-sympathizers" everywhere, even accusing several people. In one of Martindale's classes (it may have been Defeating the Adversary) he mentions that the King James phrase "keepers at home" is translated from the Greek word 'oikodespotes' i.e. the ruler of the home. She interpreted this to mean that she, as the oikodespotes, had the final, or even the only, say in what went on in our home. In her doctrinal island, I was just about qualified to bring home a paycheck. Of course, if something went wrong, like a flat tire, one of the kids getting sick, or anything that typical TWI thinking ascribed to "lack of believing", it was me, as "head of the household" who was responsible for the gap in our "hedge of protection". If there was any disagreement, there was no discussion, no consensus, no compromise, just her way or the highway. 

A few years before we split up a new Corps grad was sent in to our area. previous "leaders" had been somewhat wishy-washy and were intimidated by her and some of the other likeminded women. This new guy was a LCM clone and wasn't putting up with her crap. This was when she turned on me in earnest, needing a target. She would regularly go to leadership to complain about me, and would gossip about me to other twig members. At home, if she had a problem with something I had done, instead of talking it over, she would convene a meeting of our older kids who were grads and "confront" me.

One of the things that I am really bad at is getting myself out of a bad situation under my own terms. I tend to hang on and try to work things out until I am tossed out against my will. I knew things were bad, but I tried to turn things around, putting up with abuse so as not to escalate situations. Finally I was given a choice to either leave, or she would take the kids and leave herself. Not much of a choice.

Of course I wasn't perfect. I used to say that I understood what I had done to lead to our divorce and my ex-wife also understood what I had done to lead to our divorce. 

About 4 years after all that I married my current wife (whom some of you met at Steve and Cindy's wedding) and just passed or 16th anniversary. 

22 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

Well.......finally, twi's bod has identified ONE of their problems:  They are aging out.

 

This has been a problem on its way for 30+ years. The late 60s/early 70s numerical growth was fueled by young people who wanted something different than what their parents' churches had to offer. As cultish as we now know TWI has always been, for us young people back then, TWI, at least upon our initial exposure, was exciting. For the children of the first few waves of PFAL grads, TWI was their parents' church and was anything but exciting. Besides, by the 90s there was an evangelical or "full Bible" church on every street corner that claimed to deliver the same "accuracy of The Word" that TWI did...there was plenty of choice, it wasn't just TWI vs. mainstream Christianity any more. 

14 hours ago, Twinky said:

If not eligible for YARock, how about a "winter wonderland" holiday?
 

No hypocrisy here, celebrating holidays, "decking the halls" and such like.  (Cough, cough!)  Or does TWI celebrate Christmas now? Enjoy entertainment with the family (could be better than staying home, eating too much, watching too much TV and playing too much Monopoly) (and having a family fight). Anyhow.  For any of you who might have been interested, sorry, you've missed the closing date.  Note, the "lodging of your choice" costs extra.

Heck, TWI ALWAYS celebrated Christmas in ways virtually indistinguishable from most American; if they were consistent about not honoring days or seasons they'd be like the JWs & December 25th would be just another day. I mean, why was it a household holiday? 

8 hours ago, OldSkool said:

 

Im noit sure if this is still in effect since Rosalie got voted off the corn field by Vern John and Bill...but I know first hand that Rosalie would not use a computer and refused to have one in her office, so she had John L!nd3r print them out for her daily. This was a confidential practice that very few knew about, but I used to work for L!nd3r and asked what he was doing one day when I was in his office while he was compiling them. The answer was that the BOD liked to monitor grease spot for credible threats and such. As in these narcissitic twits really think that we are going to have death threats against them posted on GSC before on of us GSC possessos go do some sort of heinous crime against them. The sad truth is they are pretty much irrelevant except in their own world and people here are just telling what they know happened(s).

Im not sure if Vern and the gang still do this in the same way, but suffice to say we are "officially" monitored.

When I got confronted about my GSC involvement by the Limb Coordinator 20 years ago I was presented with a pile of paper containing my posts under my original alias: Twyril. 

I met John Lynn in person twice. He was the Region leader & New York Limb Leader when I got involved in TWI. First time was when he opened up his office to a handful of us from Queens to sit and observe how his day went (I'm reasonably sure this was something he did regularly). It was pretty strange though, one of us started to ask a question and he told us that there would be no questions or conversation, we were just there to observe. So we spent all day sitting quietly watching him do paperwork, read the Bible and take occasional phone calls. I tried to convince myself that I had learned something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't. We had been invited to stay for dinner, but if I remember correctly, Pat Lynn put us to work deboning chicken and cutting up vegetables and John was nowhere to be seen when dinner was ready. It was within a year after taking PFAL. 

The second time was when for some reason he was going to teach at our Way Home. Our living room/dining room was packed like sardines - the enclosed porch behind him was filling up fast, as was the kitchen at the back of the house. We hadn't had much notice that this was happening and one of the roommates had cooked some fish for lunch that day. And the house smelled like someone had cooked fish. We frantically doused the place with air fresheners and lit candles...to no avail. When he arrived (well before the place started filling up) he stopped, sniffed the pungent air and with a straight face said "You guys want to cast out that devil spirit before I start?" and then burst out laughing and suggested we open the windows!

I enjoyed his humor and thought he was a very effective speaker and humorist. (I still can remember snippets of "The Devil's Bathroom" and his funny summary of PFAL), and didn't pay much attention to what he was doing once I got out of TWI

9 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I'm just curious-

does anyone else wonder if the twi cadre is so clueless, so out-of-touch with reality that they think their escapees are just waiting for an excuse to come running back to twi?

There's a certain amount of "believing their own b-s" that causes some TWI top dogs to be out of touch. Wierwille, in my opinion, knew he was running a long con; Martindale, on the other hand, believed it. He really believed that he was the MOGFOT. Even people who didn't buy the scam that either of them was ordained by God to "teach the Word", there was still the belief that TWI was where "The Word" was being taught, the doctrine is fine, if only we can "get back to The Word" in our practices it will all come together. I would guess that any Way Corp grads who left did it for a good reason and have landed on their feet somewhere, in a church, or an offshoot, or happily living a secular life with little thought given to religion. But a segment of TWI still buys into the "grease spot by midnight" line. 

16 hours ago, skyrider said:

 Seems that few are willing to take on the task and challenge of running a state.

Are there even TWI limbs that have a significant number of active people these days? I seriously doubt it. I left not too long after you did (2001) and there were already a number of "limbs" that were more than one state. My state of Nebraska was one of them. First we were "overseen" by the Limb Coordinator of South Dakota, then we we got handed off to the Kansas City Branch Coordinator. Before that, our "branch" was two anemic twigs. I can't imagine it got better in the last 20 years. I have no doubt that the paperwork and micro-managing from HQ will be just as onerous if running a busy Limb with dozens of twigs and heathy branches or a ghost limb with some scattered "believers". 

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

The ways leadership would always be introducing some kind of guilt trip.  Like what does witnessing actually mean?  No it's not going to happy hours and meeting people it's door to door.  

And they were oblivious to the fact that meeting people in social situations was probably more successful in recruitment than door-to-door, where most people are defensive to start with

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

As I read through I noticed one more discrepancy.  VP in one work speaks of his first receiving into manifestation Holy Spirit (autocorrect caps that) in his office in Payne Ohio where God told him the teach him Word 1st century line.  But in another area it is the JE Stiles story at Oral Robert’s Tulsa Oklahoma convention.  Which was the first RHST practiced by VP?

Something that transformational for him and all subsequent cult followers should be even more clear than 4 crucified or the day Jesus died, no?

I don't recall him saying he SIT'd first in his Payne office; do you recall where he said that? I would not at all be surprised if he contradicted himself on this though. 

One of the things I see Wierwille doing time after time is basing some aspect of his teaching on someone like Bullinger, but completely misunderstanding the point. Here's an example that I found that I posted on the "Snow Job" thread some years ago:

Quote

Wierwille taught in The Word's Way (not sure if it made it into PFAL itself) chapter "The Lord's Brethren" that the brothers of Jesus specifically named in the gospels could not have been Joseph's sons from a previous marriage. His reasoning was that an older brother would have invalidated Jesus' claim to the throne of David. The only problem with that was that in another collateral chapter "The Geneology of Jesus" Wierwille teaches that the geneology in Matthew, the "royal" geneology is Mary's, while the geneology in Luke is Joseph's. Therefore, the existance of any of Joseph's older sons would be irrelevant to any claim to the throne of David.

If one looks through Bullinger's appendixes and come to the one regarding the Lord's Brethren, one would see that Bullinger states the same thing that Wierwille did, dismissing the possibility that James, Joses, Simon and Judas were Jesus' older half-brothers by Joseph's first wife, since their existance would invalidate Jesus' claim to the Davidic throne. However, Bullinger wrote in his appendixes that he believed that the geneology in Matthew was Joseph's, and the one in Luke was Mary's, making his position consistant at least.

To me it looks like Wierwille simply parrotted what Bullinger said about the brethren, without fully understanding Bullinger's reasoning behind it, and subsequently making no sense. Just one of several examples where Wierwille apparently didn't understand what Bullinger was saying, but liked his conclusions.

2 hours ago, Twinky said:

I watched their promo video (well: listened to it, while I did more worthwhile things).  It runs from Aug 2022 to June 2023 and they are sending these "Ambassadors" to areas where there is already an established branch into which they can be "integrated."  So there's a couple of changes.  

Now: why to where there is an established branch?  Is it because (1) after all these years, they realise that sending a bunch of strangers (to each other) to a strange new city (to all of them) isn't actually very helpful; or (2) they can be prodded and spied upon on a daily basis by local leadership.

I'd like to think that it meant that failure was less likely (from the participants' PoV) and that real guidance was on hand locally.  In actuality, I suspect it will mean that participants will be "overseen" and brought under the thumbs of meanie leaders. 

Good luck to 'em all.  Unlikely anyone at the Cafe will be signing up.

Even without the (likely true) aspect of being "overseen", it makes more sense to have them somewhere where they can possibly have an impact. But TWI leaders will never admit that the old way was wrong when they change to something new. 

7 hours ago, penguin2 said:

Well you will be thrilled to know the Way Disciple program is no more.

Announcing registration for the Way Ambassador program.  The best of both programs. New and dynamic.  First wave in 2022.  Oh. Yeah.  The goal is Word Over the World because a new generation has to take the Word to their generation.

What? I thought the "word" was over the world?

Good to see your virtual face! I recently started posting again after sporadic absences. My 20 year anniversary of getting kicked out of TWI recently passed & I'm gearing up for the 20 year anniversary of my ex-wife kicking me out 

On 8/11/2021 at 8:38 AM, Bolshevik said:

WOW always ended in The Rock of Ages.  Obviously that's a marketing strategy . . . but did success really matter? It really served to feed the leader, did it not?

In retrospect, it didn't matter. What mattered to top tier of TWI was that they could control every aspect of your life and blame yourself for the lack of success that was preordained from the beginning. In my case, was it at all realistic to send four outsiders (3 of us city kids) to a small rural town and expect anything but lack of growth? As messed up as my WOW year was, I still drank the Kool-Aid and was involved in a Way Home the next year - even attempted to enter the Way Corps (was saved from that by being unable to scrape together sponsorship $) 

On 9/30/2021 at 4:53 PM, Raf said:

Was he a musician? Vague memories of a tape.

I think he may have been in Takit

1 hour ago, skyrider said:

My original post made NO reference to any one person.  My intent was to start a discussion about the CONCEPT.  As I've said, twi leadership would go into attack mode on the individual immediately upon death.......lest the ministry be blamed.  More often than not.....it funneled the end of one's life down to a fraction of minor decisions.  This topic could be worthy of discussion if we delve into the wide spectrum of life and lilving.

If others choose to make this thread all about the recent passing of John Lynn, then I will bow out.

Peace.

I wasn't aware that Lynn had died. But I was aware of the character assassination that took place upon death on occasion, often of people who, up until death, were 100% cheerleaders for whatever Martindale or Wierwille were peddling. If these people were suck F-ups, why were they in leadership positions in the first place? (not saying they WERE F-ups, just that post-mortem, LCM SAID they were). For a group that was so hot on "discerning of spirits" and "in-depth spiritual awareness", they sure were terrible at spotting spiritual issues until it became completely obvious. 

On 9/14/2021 at 12:49 AM, WordWolf said:

Nobody ever seems to be able to remember ANYONE EVER being turned down for the corps. So long as you had your money, you were ok to proceed. 

Other than lack of money, I can only recall one coupled who were turned down. The reason given was a minor medical condition that the wife had. Although not long after he was thrown out and M&A'd and they divorced

On 9/29/2021 at 9:35 AM, Twinky said:

And that splitting of hairs is a big thing with what TWI did to distort and twist scriptures.  Focus on minutiae, and overlook the detail.  By all means, point out the minutiae  in passing, yes: but focus on it to the exclusion of the significance of the event being reported - NO!

Good point about splitting hairs. From my perch 20 years after leaving TWI and over 40 years after first getting involved, the purpose of Wierwille's novel interpretations was mainly to establish himself as the expert by undermining the reliability of virtually every other denomination, not about establishing "the truth". The middle portion of PFAL, while ostensibly about the keys to The Word interpreting itself, is example after example of "things everybody got wrong". After a few sessions he's not even backing crap up with actual verses, but shaky translations based on wishful thinking and "if you could only see it in the original" as well as suspect "Orientalisms". 

I'd been away from GSC for a few years, so missed this and just saw it today. I've been neglecting my paying job to read it all in one go. I was kicked out in August 2001, after having been on probation in 1999, and lived through a lot of what you describe, albeit from a non-Corps perspective. Our local Way Corps though, was a true believer and enforced all the nonsense with an iron fist.

In regard to the "bribery" letter, my young son, who was maybe 7 years old, attempted to give him a pencil with an eraser in the shape of an animal of some kind, just because. He returned it to him, and quoted the bribery letter to me and my wife. Illegitimate son of a dog. 

The purges, the "revelation", the idiotic idea to put all the Way Corps on the payroll, the willingness of some people to get fully on board with the witch hunt atmosphere to get rid of people they didn't like, it got more insane every year, if not every week and every day. 

You spotlight that "the original sin was lesbianism" nonsense in the WayAP class. While only slightly more irrational than "the original sin was masturbation", it set new lows in shaky and disconnected chains of illogic and novel and out-of-context translations of Hebrew words. I sent a long letter to John Reynolds after sitting through this ridiculous class, highlighting that & many other crazy new doctrines promulgated in it. He called me on the telephone one night and told to (1) trust the trustees and (2) it sounded like I had been listening to internet gossip

 

2 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

Wierwille's prophecy did NOT come to pass.  He spoke presumptuously [saying or doing something without right or permission, taking excessive liberties, presuming something that isn't there].  Thus, do not be afraid [do not respect] him.

Stay away from cults.  Should have had many more  good years honoring and respecting my parents.  They were right about The Way International from the git-go.  

Thankful, I had 10 years with my Dad after exiting twi in 1998.  Today is his birthday.  Miss you Dad.

 

 

Happy to hear that the rift was healed after you left TWI. My own parents, while deeply concerned about my TWI involvement, even considering hiring a deprogrammer, stuck with me during my TWI years. They visited often, and even came to a few Twig fellowships. Wierwille, even when he wasn't "prophesying" family members deaths, did little to calm family members' fears for their children & reveled in fanning the flames that caused estrangement among families

15 hours ago, T-Bone said:

...(perhaps new PFAL grads riding high on the excitement from the class - usually young, single and no great career yet, are more likely to go out WOW than more seasoned grads - maybe married with kids, own a home have  well-established careers - so they couldn't just drop everything and go out WOW - and oddly enough these seasoned grads are the financial backbone of TWI - they sponsor folks they usually make more money than WOWs and corps in secular jobs - and so they proportionately give more to the pseudo-spiritual elite moochers( - I mean, the ministry.

This is a leetle bit , but your remark quoted above reminded me of something that was going on in the mid-nineties. The area that I was in was mostly the "seasoned grads" and their children. There was a smattering of younger people who had stuck around after their WOW year, but the majority were people in their late thirties, early forties, some who had taken PFAL and been WOWs themselves in the seventies. There was a big push for outreach by Way Corps who were full-time Way employees. I started hearing those of us with careers, kids in school etc denigrated as "old grads" with our thinking mocked as being "old wineskins".