annio

All I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Well also, HOW WONDEFUL IN MANY MANY WAYS!!!!!!!!!!!         VERY BEST TO YOU AND YOURS UNTIL... WE ALL MEET AGAIN!!

On 9/6/2022 at 9:51 AM, LoriAlberts said:

Hi.  Looking for any of my old friends who were in the Boston area 1978-1982

Well, I was in Boston summer '82 only... But you might enjoy hearing names like Sue Watson, Michael Pulliam, and Michael, Uh oh, N?? Lost last name. Went into the 14th Corps... We all lived in the way home that Sue Watson coordinated... 

On 3/11/2024 at 9:51 AM, chockfull said:

How can I not be deceived by other cults?  I don’t want to join another one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/s/Mh6incJZ98
 

Reddit thread on this question.  Some insightful commentary.

For me it was partially self delusion.  I traded free will and compliance for an emotional sense of security, belonging, and purpose.

All those 3 tangible benefits were 100 percent delusional and false.  There is no security and belonging in a high control environment where questioning or presenting a different opinion results in shunning.  Obviously there is tangible negative emotional impact with shunning.  And any purpose was masked with the true hidden purpose of elevating certain individuals in stature and position.

There are emotional lies that people buy into and trade their freedom for.

 

Also checking into several resources in the Reddit link- Daniella Young's book, and a really good article! So appreciate these!

On 3/11/2024 at 9:51 AM, chockfull said:

How can I not be deceived by other cults?  I don’t want to join another one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/s/Mh6incJZ98
 

Reddit thread on this question.  Some insightful commentary.

For me it was partially self delusion.  I traded free will and compliance for an emotional sense of security, belonging, and purpose.

All those 3 tangible benefits were 100 percent delusional and false.  There is no security and belonging in a high control environment where questioning or presenting a different opinion results in shunning.  Obviously there is tangible negative emotional impact with shunning.  And any purpose was masked with the true hidden purpose of elevating certain individuals in stature and position.

There are emotional lies that people buy into and trade their freedom for.

 

Thank you for articulating these things!!! 

8 hours ago, Allan said:

And yet Australias largest AOG church had young boys sexually abused by the founder until he was found out, stood down and then covered up by his son who then took over running the church...go figure.

Oh, no doubt about it, there have been all KINDS of power etc abuses in just about EVERY denomination or Christian movement, especially those getting attention recently. Twi definitely did not have a special corner on that! However, the length of time vp was able to abuse young women sexually, keep it all a secret, influence twi culture in big ways, and NEVER be held accountable in any effectual way is notable IMO.

On 2/22/2024 at 2:23 PM, chockfull said:

Hey annio!

Thanks for sharing.  I appreciate hearing about your growth and movement post TWI.

It sounds like you have found a comfortable presence of the body of Christ in your area and that’s great!

To me some of the difference in views are exactly that - now I can be part of a larger body of Christ as described in scripture where all parts are valued and part of a greater Christian extended family where common grassroots virtues and goals are shared and there is tolerance for differences in the body without an extreme cult-like view.  Where all members in Christ are equal and important and not to be treated like rock stars with entourages.

Denominations have good and bad aspects including accountability and governance of course flaws creep in to human constructs.  There are some cool community churches around too and some concept based churches with no denominational governance.

It’s kind of like a huge family worldwide with different languages cultures and ideas can be dysfunctional at times like most families.

I like it personally a lot more than the bondage of being a slave to “bring the heart of the BOD to all believers on the field and strive to run classes according to the overseers directed annual schedule”.  

I like it personally a lot more than the recently trademarked “WOW” phrase that will serve as trademarked justification for the same ongoing for future generations.

Want to go in a different philosophical or spiritual direction?  I think my faith in God says He is fair enough to see your heart and reward you for your efforts.  If people made it more about Him and less about them then maybe there wouldn’t be a ton heading for the hills.

Congrats on your continued faith and local family!

Appreciate your reply LOTS, Chockfull! Yes, observing and being a part of the various Christian assemblies functioning now often brings valuable freedom of choices, connections to the Body as a whole, ETCs as you pointed out! I left the Chris Geer group around 2009 after leaving twi in the late '80s, so didn't experience some of the specifics you mentioned. But What twi Became was so rooted in What It Already and Always Was that I am still pretty horrified that I was so influenced by vpw et all! Healthy horror I guess! Best to you!!

On 12/31/2023 at 4:02 PM, chockfull said:

I enjoy researching various different cults as opposed to focusing on the personal dirt related to the cult from my story.

I also share my observations surrounding TWI here on this website under a pseudonym as opposed to having a profession as a published author or having my personal identity as always associated with this particular cult.

I started this thread because there was a church doing a study on various cults including TWI which I was in.  I personally participated in that series of study and along the way shared many fruitful points of similarity in how cults function to TWI.

This thread is my personal experience in cult recovery.  As well as a topic for how different cults function similarly.

 

Picking up this thread after a looong search for the best thread pick up, hope I judged correctly enough! I am comparing the structure and teachings/inferences in the Assembly of God church I am now a partner in, w/ those of twi/vpw et al.  The irony of vp lauding the early church model of church in the home, i.e a grassroots movement, and condemning later "organized" denominations that met in church buildings, really strikes me. (Especially in light of the current movement of many church-building-churches to emphasize small groups that meet in homes, as well as the large gatherings in the church building on Sunday.) He CLAIMED a decentralized free-flowing Spirit-led movemen t, whi ch it was in some key ways; but ALWAYS, he was to be honored as the Apostle Paul was, (claims to the contrary), and kept an iron grip on the power, money, psyches, and Biblical doctrines of twi. 

In CONTRAST, the Assembly of God folks (not that I have allegiance towards any particular denom), emphasize small groups, have a lead pastor VERY accountable to a local board, and have a central office somewhere in Indianapolis I assume, and I THINK a US headquarters?  The Way Tree myth that elevated Jerusalem got implanted in my cultized brain, I am more fully realizing.

The AOG church as a whole is structured much more like the 1st Century church in keyways, than twi ever was!!!  Twi HEADQUARTERS WAS THE CHURCH BUILDING/physical location that ppl identified with and flocked to whenever possible, magnified 1000 times! Names like the Biblical Research Center, or WOW Auditorium didn't really change a THING IMO. Yes, human beings tend to ID with and attach to physical locations, especially where their hearts are drawn to God. But the concept that twi was the 1st Century church in the 20th, was PURE FICTION AND DECEPTION.

(Sometimes I still long for the free flow of how twi grew, and I do love how the early church was apparently structured and flowed. Apparently the Gospel is moving beautifully in India with Sangat Bain's ministry which is based only on home churches, and has Zero Headquarters.)

But right now, I am learning, growing, and worshipping in this local church which BTW, is connecting more and more w/ other churches in our town, YAY!) And am coming out of Cult Fog, and viewing the Evolution of The "Biblically-centered" Church from it's earliest days until now as something to learn from, honor, and feel a part of. 

Thank you GSC-ers for still being here!!

Will give it a listen, thanks!

2 minutes ago, Charity said:

Hi Annio, I've spent some time in the local Vineyard church here and there were some positive things I experienced, but it is definitely a charismatic church.  Looking back on that time, one concern I have is their emphasis on inviting the holy spirit to come, especially during the worship service.  This belief goes against the doctrine that we have holy spirit permanently dwelling within which is our connection with God and Christ.  On the surface, it may not seem like a big difference but many Vineyard people put faith in "experiencing" the holy spirit like "holy laughter" or feeling warmth in their hands as evidence "he" has come to them.  In 1994, there was the Toronto Blessing at a Vineyard church which brought thousands of people from around the world to experience the blessing and bring it back to their churches. John Wimber approved of it up to a certain point, until the "manifestations" of making animal sounds became too insane.  However, what was happening at the beginning, Wimber believed was of God.

In the church here, their view of the trinity had developed to where Jesus has now become the father and the holy spirit.  Before, they were separate but all part of one God in essence.  Now, when they read scriptures that are specifically about God the Father, they interpret it as being Jesus.  It was so blasphemous that I left the church. 

One last thing, the pastor at my church fully believes in the teachings of Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer Kansas City whose "prophetic history" includes riding in a chariot in heaven and encounters with Jesus and Michael the archangel.  They are in a crisis right now due to allegations of sexual misconduct by Bickle so at lot of their false doctrine is being revealed.  If the Vineyard you attend accepts Bickle's teachings, especially his book called "Growing in the Prophetic," then it is definitely something you need to research for yourself.

Oh boy! Thank you for all of this Charity! And very interesting how movements evolve... We ALWAYS need to keep a watchful eye on human institutions, eh? I am now involved in an Assembly of God church pastored by a young fellow whose doctrinal positions I am coming alongside more and more. HowEVER, the doctrinal position I MOST appreciate there is that we can have a DIVERSITY OF DOCTRINAL POSITIONS (as well as political, ethnic, etc) re: secondary matters. Yes! Places for robust discussions, but no (ideally) place for narrow-mindedness, group think, conformity, etc. Sorry they are supporting Mike Bickle... Again, thank you for the input!!

On 1/21/2024 at 5:55 PM, chockfull said:

Yes it fits right in with Bible accounts like the twelve meeting the seventy where they said “we own the trademark on everything you’re doing” and called them “swagger jackers”.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 8:52 AM, chockfull said:

On the nostalgia bias front I see that the BODolts have paid money to patent the term “Word Over the World”.  Tm.

Your ABS at work.

Now if they could only patent the term “world peace” then they could collect a lot of money at every Miss America contest.

 

All u other WOWs are cheap imitators lol.

On 1/21/2024 at 5:09 PM, oldiesman said:

On 1/21/2024 at 3:31 PM, Rocky said:

Was he being blackmailed? I doubt it. 

Who knows what's in the heart of any human?

 

 

LCM was a total puppet; evidence in VP & Me... Others things... I myself benefitted a lot from the way, but also suffered much personal destruction. I DO fantasize about joining the CA Jesus movement which I purposefully decided not to just b/c it seemed too charismatic; would have been MUCH MORE HEALTHY, DOCTRINALLY  CORRECT I now believe, AND SAFE. Love John Wimber, Chuck Smith, the Vineyard movement. Oh well...

On 1/25/2024 at 10:27 PM, chockfull said:

Ok I tried once again to listen to the incredible forehead.

I got as far into the teaching as him going on about God making a way to escape with the temptation and how you should be getting warnings from God ahead of time to avoid the trap.

Then irony closed in.

And I shut him off.

21 hours ago, chockfull said:

So this year the JW Governing Body has made the policy change for all its cult followers that they no longer have to report up through the organization the number of “pioneering hours” they spend per week.  They just check a box instead.  This is causing some internal challenges.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/DdBwS5j1Ps

I wonder if The Way International has modified any of their volunteer witnessing policies over the years.

When I was a leader in TWI they had policies for every single leader position in the organization.  The instructions to every single leader included “Carry out the heart of the Board of Directors to all members on the field”.  This was called the “Rise and Expansion” policies and was part of the “Way tree” structure throughout our country.  It included that every local group would “strive to run a class” according to calendar goals.  So to fulfill this, leaders designed similar outreach tactics to the JWs with door to door, public stands and planning and recording outreach activities conversations and results.

When I look back on this now it is all control and zero Bible at the basis of this.

Jesus Christ when he returns is not going to ask everyone at the bema how diligently they “carried out the heart of the BOD to the members on the field”.  No the BOD will get their very own dunce cap dedicated to those who promoted their own interests in the name of Jesus Christ.  

Christianity is not a hierarchy of power like you see in the world with organizations.  It is a grassroots movement at the individual not the organization level.

And nobody anywhere cares one iota about what the “heart” of a group of controlling dolts on a small farm in Ohio is.
 

 

AMEN!!!!!!!!! 

Just checking in as have been in absentia for awhile. Wow, I am Very Sorry for all you endured, but believe I quite understand... And another Wow! for your perseverance in healing, all you have processed, and how well you shared your story...

19 hours ago, Rocky said:

There's quite a bit of commonality in how, as young people we were drawn to Victor's mess of a ministry.

I'm glad YOU (too, like me and so many others) are a survivor, Annio! 

Thank you Rocky!! 

On 9/10/2023 at 10:21 AM, Raf said:

Picks, faves, amazing moments?

Can someone explain how the Lions beat the Chiefs? Is that legal?

15 hours ago, Rocky said:

You could, apparently, no longer take Victor's word for it what it all, or any of it, meant.

That expression take his word for it jumped out and SCREAMED at me when I read your comment.

Isn't that why Victor NEEDED young people to join his movement, rather than older, more seasoned researchers with whom he would have been challenged on his numerous claims of what God actually meant?

I was 19 when I first learned of Victor's ministry and his take on "truth." I THOUGHT (at the time) what I responded to was an intellectually honest take on God, scripture and such. But really, reflecting back on my developmental place and emotional/social needs at that moment, I responded to something altogether different, a friendship at a US military base overseas where and when I had few people I felt I had much in common with.

But I digress, for Victor to effectively communicate with and proselytize more intellectually and emotionally mature people would have required him to be willing to listen and relate to people differently than those who eventually came to follow his ministry. But didn't he try reaching people with that kind of maturity for years with  minimal success? Wouldn't his success have required different communication skills? More open minded listening perhaps? More of an open mind to what other people, closer to being peers with him, had to say? People who would listen to him but pose difficult questions. Didn't he actually HAVE people like that come into his orbit... but for reasons unknown he didn't engender the kind of emotional connection he was able to get with the "young people?"

Did Victor have a temperament conducive to actual dialogue that could produce an understanding in two or more individuals which could reasonably be expected to include portions of each person's position. 

Could that be [part of] the reason he built a cult, instead of a community without demands on its followers?

 

 

INteresting!! Have a few Q's here - I remember him telling us that he had travelled various places and talked with various scholars; I think I used to have a few names in my brain but memory fails now.  Anyone else remember this?

AGREE re: his lack of interest in ACTUALLY deeply investigating and teaching various theological positions. E.g. Dispensationalism. Honest Biblical scholarship would have required him, when teaching a class on understanding the Bible, to have taught that there were OTHER POSITIONS, such as Covenant theology. But NO, there is only ONE WAY to interpret the Bible, MY WAY. Am sure others have posted, but I am just now seeing again more clearly, that his was a Sleight of Hand Trick to say that NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION = the Bible interprets itself = MY INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Anyone know where/how he he came up with this??? Wonder if BG Leonard leaned in this direction?? Thanks to anyone replying!!

On 8/11/2023 at 11:51 AM, chockfull said:

Your last sentence seems to be a sticking point for all of the splinter groups.   They can’t seem to admit “I was wrong” pursuing the TWI cult and its goals and idolatry.

It is interesting the conversation is progressing to the topics of “Love” and “Fear” or “Courage”.  These are more common tangible virtual desirable characteristics.  

Any religion should accomplish the goal of helping the individual to form the best possible version of themselves with respect to developing virtue.

In the TWI cult and splinter cults all the effort goes in to propping up the leaders as larger than life as opposed to developing virtue as an individual.

It is pretty clear when you examine facts Wierwille was a narcissistic preacher with a sex and alcohol problem who founded a cult of personality as opposed to being de frocked by his denominations slow moving judicial arm for attacking their missionary work and having an affair with his secretary.

The facts and human behavior patterns are undeniable.  Whereas imagined snowstorms on gas pumps are certainly called into question.

I guess there was a part of me that believed the snowstorm story and so I stuck it out with the group for a few decades.  But the cognitive dissonance adds up over time and people do not buy the snake oil after a time.  Truth comes out.  Despite all the whitewash effort which actually represents a bulk of their activity.

Want to be a TWI leader?  Here is your assigned paint brush and area to whitewash.

Well put!!! Rocky too!!. Am having anOTHER round of processing... I got involved in twi b/c of what was going on for me personally (some mental breakdown), and in the surrounding world/culture in the early 70's. E.g. All of my "spiritually-minded" siblings and cousins in New England turned to Eastern mysticism; we were SEARCHING. I had  become a Jesus follower, but saw emptiness and hypocrisy in fundamental  churches, and my hippie-ness was not welcomed. Been reading about Auroville in India- a Hindu (sort of) utopian community started in the 60s that drew ppl from around the globe, but turned out to promote similar types of magical thinking, leader-worship, conflict, extremism, etc. I was/many of us really thought we could CHANGE THE WORLD, eh? That idealistic youthful energy and belief. vpw took advantage of that... I very well could have joined an Eastern religous c ommunity instead of twi like my relatives, had it not been for God answering y prayers and leading me to saving faith in Jesus at age 16...    Best to ALL here!

On 4/19/2023 at 12:12 PM, Charity said:

I'm on my way out the door, but I was exactly in the place you are speaking of now.  It all opened up to me when I started reading the Absent Christ thread at the end of November of last year and it was definitely a grieving process that many of the posters helped me get through.  Here's the link to where I began on GSC - and another link for the beginning of the thread.  You'll find posts begin to stray off topic but keep scrolling through when that happens.  This is a very long thread (93 pages).  That thread is now closed but if you wanted to start a new one with a slightly different name, you can get a lot of support from others.  Please keep in touch.

This is where OldSkool began the thread

 

THANK YOU Charity!!! Am now ready to check this out ASAP. Sorry so late in replying!! 

On 4/7/2023 at 6:27 PM, T-Bone said:

 

That’s the challenge of trying to describe a very complex, problematic and charming cult-leader like wierwille - there’s not just one description that says it all. Usually in the Bible when someone has a life-dominating sin then they’ve earned the title – thus a pathological deceiver is called a liar, one who steals is called a thief. And since people are complicated beings – there’s nothing in the Bible saying you can’t have more than one life-dominating sin.

 

I ain’t perfect. I’ve had a few life-dominating sins in my lifetime – even in TWI – that particular life-dominating sin was the pride I had for thinking I knew more about God and the Bible than anyone outside of TWI…shortly after I left TWI I got a little taste of the day of reckoning while I was shopping at the grocery store. Looking at the other shoppers – realizing for the first time… in a looooong time that I was no better than anyone else - - I hurried through my shopping holding back tears.

Hey, I’m still a sinner – I have little bouts of temptations to lie, lust, seek revenge. I think I do pretty good not letting those ‘appealing things’ run and ruin my life.

Been married 47 years – never cheated on my wife. I’m still somewhat of an a$$-hole but since I left TWI I no longer am a rising star a$$-hole Twig-coordinator Pharisee-wannabe. Now I just try to be a repentant a$$hole to wife, kids, friends, neighbors…I’m retired now – but in all of my work career I’ve never stole from work or exploited / abused others to get ahead.

Excuse me for going on so much about myself on this thread  – but believe it or not I do have a reason…or rather reasons – and here they are.  I honestly think I am no better or worse than anyone else on Grease Spot Café – and there must be something in me that got damaged in my cult experience because I still have issues with low self-esteem and self-doubt.
 

Low self-esteem – maybe from feeling I fell so short of that hollow renewed mind model we learned in TWI…I’ve always liked being sort of a people-pleaser – but in TWI that got taken advantage of big time and it seemed like I always disappointed upper leadership - maybe it was because they kept moving the goal post  – and I often succumbed to their guilt trip tactics anyway - so I get that who am I to judge others vibe - even if wierwille manifested a cacophony of life-dominating sins.

Self-doubt – sales as a career is not my thing, leadership and management are not for me either – you can’t be timid, introverted and unassertive – and that’s me   Robert Petrie – sure I’m one ridiculously dapper dude.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Any wierwille-sympathizers reading this please take note. This post is typical of what normal people do. This post is normal for what cult-survivors do. This ain’t politics folks!
 

This is life skills 101 for the young and naïve who got suckered into a destructive and manipulating pseudo-Christian organization.
 

keeping all that toxic cult mindset bottled up ain’t healthy. 

unpacking and sorting out the intellectual and emotional baggage is very helpful to one’s well-being. It’s normal to acknowledge the hurt.
 

If you still hold wierwille in such high regard – then I challenge you on this – there might be something out of whack with your scale of values. So sorry - I'm not gonna get guilt-tripped every time I say something negative about you-know-who.

The more I think about it, the more I think big wierwille fans need to recalibrate their powers of discernment. You see, big wierwille fans are using a reference point that is skewed - which is their beloved super-duper-hypocrite teachings on the love of God thinketh no evil, anything done in the love of God is okay...and it is by that standard they get all up in arms of anyone who dares to bring up any valid criticism of wierwille. Oh, we're not loving. Oh, we're not forgiving. Geesh - give me a break...if the media - hell - if the general public knew of all the hypocritical bull$hit wierwille got away with - you all would be laughed out of the country for defending such a hot mess.  damn straight!

 

At least I really tried to walk the talk when I was in TWI - and I think that’s true for a lot of the folks that I served , fellowshipped with and worked under. That’s way more than wierwille’s stage-act. Pharisees have a double standard. They hold all the peons like us to a squeaky clean and submissive rule of thumb. But the big dogs of Pharisee-Central get a free pass! They claim they love God and neighbor but they do as they full well please! 

wake up and smell the bull-$hit !

 

You know damn well if wierwille ever got wind of you exploiting, abusing, character assassinating, sexually molesting any other TWI-follower  - - he’d get all holier-than-thou on your a$$…it’s okay for him but not for you. That’s the double standard!

 

but you know - I think the hypocrisy of Pharisee-Central may have an attractant for those who already have proclivities to exploit, abuse, character assassinate , sexually molest others - like a moth drawn to the flame. People like that can smell opportunities a mile away. I was clueless to the wife-swapping that went on at Rome City campus because I was focused on trying to be the best little old TWI-believer that I could be. I was dumb enough to think PFAL was the gold standard of the Christian lifestyle. I thought wierwille was the real deal. I believed his 1942 audible promise from God story. 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Self-doubting-low-self-esteemer types get chewed up and spit out by harmful and controlling cults.

You have no idea what emotional and intellectual  turmoil I go through when we discuss the invisible idol that was embedded deep down inside.

Reverential admiration…like idolatry is love.  I had… …maybe I still have a slowly diminishing love-hate relationship with wierwille and LCM  - there’s both very positive and very negative feelings. I have not been so deeply abused, exploited or molested like some here have – maybe that would make it easier to snub these weird feelings…I’ve never been divorced. But I imagine there’s a love-hate relationship on both sides. Leaving a cult – maybe it’s like that – I miss all the good people  and good stuff I got out of it – but I hate all the bad $hit…when something so bad is so close to your heart   it's gotta be harder than brain surgery to get it removed.

I come to Grease Spot Café for a lot of reasons. Expose TWI. Promote freedom of thought. Encourage others to develop cognitive skills. Help and pray for others. Soak up the therapy. Have fun. Enjoy the company – I’m not alone on this unusual journey.

 

Thanks for letting me get all sorts of vulnerable here…oh yeah, another selfish reason why I make myself vulnerable – I’m into developing meaningful and profound relationships with Grease Spotters.

now it’s time for me to climb back into my Iron Man suit , which I got cheap at Syms Clothing Store ( “An educated consumer is our best customer.” – yes, that Syms Clothing) before they closed down.

Okay I’m done! Go the mass has ended…thanks be to God!!! 

 

 

OMG, THANK YOU THANK YOU T-BONE!!!!!!!!!! And preach it, teach it, EXPOSE IT!!!!!!!!!!!

And been cruising around GSC and now cant remember if it was you or someone else who posted this below with a great explanation of how the way corpse was like this below for him/her... God will be the ultimate judge I say, but vp gave into the temptations to take advantage of me and numerous others in the ways so well enumerated above, and for that I personally hold him ACCOUNTABLE. (I think/hope the image will post.)

On 4/1/2023 at 12:02 AM, Charity said:

The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because they knew he was doing many miracles and if they did nothing, they feared that all men would come to believe in him and the Romans would then come and take away both their place and nation (John 11:47-48).  Likewise, I think vp saw the love and praise young people had for Jesus and wanted that love and praise all for himself.  So he cunningly demoted, demeaned and devalued Jesus in his teachings and especially his programs so that Christ no longer lived in our lives (i.e., he was basically dead to us) and vp was then able to maintain his lordship in his kingdom that was called twi.  That was my experience for the years I was involved in twi and remained my experience for decades later until very recently.

OMG, THANK YOU for this Charity... I say it with tears welling up, but that is EXACTLY what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! K, now I have to grieve all the years I disconnected from Jesus... This will take awhile to recover from, but oh well, what is new????!!!!

If I can share further FREEDOM AND HEALING HERE- I chose not to get involved w/ Jesus Movement folks in '72 b/c of my indoctrination/beliefs that I now remember came from Inter-Varsity CF's anti-Charismatic movement stance tht I was totallyl involved w/ during my college years. "You are raising your hands during singing? I am OUTTA HERE!" But a few years later I said YES to vpw's culture/doctrines/etc.

Now reading/viewing lots re: the Jesus Movement, I can actually "time travel back" and "chose" that Jesus-centered path, and connect to what that would have been like in key ways. And this a.m. I had a deeply spiritual re-attaching to the God and Jesus that I lost during my 35 years w/ the way and Chris Geer folks... SOO much fear and confusion gone, since I had had bad church experiences, saw all the denom fighting, etc. And then expereinced some of the worst of the abuses in the way. AMAZING!!! Bedst to you all here!!!!!!! 

On 3/16/2023 at 4:50 PM, OldSkool said:

Thanks for being so candid. Very inspiring, very inspiring. I can relate to God's compassion and love shining through and melting that tough outer shell some of us tend to develop. I guess for me I dont really take the flight method when engaged; I tend to fight even when theres nothing left to fight about. Just part of my human weakness really, not something Im proud of, ashamed really...but my point is this is an area of my life that Ive been addressing pretty heavily the past few months. A fellow GSC compadre has helped me to understand that my background and upbringing taught me to go from 0 to 150 as a survival mechanism. So for the longest there hasnt been a rational side of me once provoked. Its truly taken God's love and compassion to melt that calloused shell of mine and Im making genuine strides at temperance and controlling my anger and preferring not to fight, well unless no choice remains...but how often is that truly necessary? It helps to see others because you remind me that Im not alone and others are in the same struggles. Ditto on forgiving them, and I have. It took a while because when I first left TWI I checked out and was courted by three off shoots and they all were so adamant that I forgive wierwille, and others. At the time, and even still to a degree, I feel that their motivations were to keep the gravy train rolling with the same, but altered doctrines that wierwille taught. Over time though I recognized that I was hanging on to an excuse, even if the excuse was true in cases. Really, it feels good to have dropped the baggage and bitterness I used to carry. I feel like Frodo after he realized that the ring was truly gone....relieved and breathing fresh air.

Cool perspective all the way across but point 5 is new to me and has my wheels turning. Thanks again!

Sorry took so long to reply! I very much appreciate learning about your and others' personal processings, and our Very Human Common Experiences and Ways of Dealing w/ Abuses, etc.  So glad for your new freedom and fresh air!!!!!

SOOOO appreciate your insights and depth folks!!! My contribution (and support-seeking!) here is sharing about the pushback I got on Facebook for challenging a recent post by a still-faithful-twi leader. Here is his original post that got lots of support: "I know Dr Wierwille learned alot from men like Bullinger and Kenyon. I never heard him present it as if it was his work. He presented it as it is in truth and fact, as God's."

I posted this- "he did not credit most of what he taught re: receiving the holy spirit in PFAL to BG Leonard when BG had NOT given him permission to do so." Said I could document privately as I remember posters here sharing about vp basically stealing BG's class. I was accused of being "worldly and nitpicky", and there were many who gave evidence of him acknowledging his sources. You all have addressed these issues very well in the past, so am not looking for discussion on that.  One particularly interesting thing was someone said that BG attended vp's retirement party; they have photos of BG w/ their daughters. HUH... 

I responded with "Love you all". and "am glad that GOD is and will be our judge!" 

Just sharing this here is very helpful, and I learned afresh about who to discuss what w/... Onward!!!!!!!!!!!!!