PatAnswer

The "About the Wades" page linked above doesn't seem to exist any longer. But what stood out to me that was quoted there was: "In 1965 Peter Wade went to the United States to attend a three-month Summer School at The Way Biblical Research Center, which was then a non-denominational teaching organization." Seems there's an indication that it became denominational, either while he was there or shortly thereafter.

I can understand "God got me in, God got me out." Maybe better put "God got me involved, God got me out" There was never supposed to be an in and out. That's what VPW supposedly hated. But he couldn't stand it when people disagreed with him and (thrown) out they went and everyone else who wanted to stay in shaped up. It's the body and Christ at the head. There's learning to be had in many places. I understand when He says "Look here." I'm learning from a different ministry now. Keeping my distance. I'm free to disagree with some of what they teach and no one's threatened to throw me out.

VPW was an expert at keeping everyone around him off-balance. This was one way he kept control. Just when you thought he was going to turn left, he'd turn right. Then he'd give a deep supposed spiritual reason why and berate and belittle others for not having "seen" it. This kept those under him questioning themselves and their assessment of what was really going on. Just when they thought they were growing spiritually and had a grasp of the spiritual side of life VPW would tell them they were wrong.Then when those under VPW suspected something wasn't right they would correct themselves because they didn't want to become the next example held up in front of the rest as someone who was spiritually dull or worse. Eventually everyone celebrated VPW's unpredictable nature touting how spiritual he was since it seemed to defy the senses information. That's how you build a nice little cult.

This post may border on doctrinal but I don't know any other way to discuss this in this thread without going into TWI doctrine. I remember some in TWI teaching that there was no rain before the flood. It was not a prevalent doctrine but I did hear it. I remember VPW teaching at Living Victoriously about the waters that were above the expanse of the universe. He taught that the universe was encased with water like a womb. He may have been reading from Kenyon, I don't remember. I heard it, considered it, thought it was cool but didn't dwell on it. I don't remember this teaching getting into the main theology of TWI. Others may have talked about it and even taught it but I don't remember it being an established doctrine. I also don't remember if VPW tied in the flood of Noah's time to this water that was outside the universe. I believe this was based on some scriptures that indicate there is water above the firmament. (Gen 1:6) And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (Gen 1:7) And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. (Gen 1:8) And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. I always pictured this as the waters that were on the earth being separated from the clouds, that there was an expanse between them. The ancients believed that the firmament was a set boundary, not just the sky or atmosphere. The Hebrew word for firmament gives the idea of a hard surface, something beaten into a shape. But of course their understanding of the universe (the stars, planets, rain, etc.) was limited. But if the scriptures are from God's perspective then a further study of the words and meanings and figures of speech would be in order. If taken literally then VPW and others are correct, there may be water outside of the known universe. Does this water surround the universe or is there some water in a defined area outside of the universe? Don't know. Aside from the word firmament, there is also this verse that needs to be dealt with: (Psa 148:4) Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. I really don't know the answer. It has not been worth my time to try to figure it out. It's not pertinent to my walk with my Father. But then enter LCM. In his infinite wisdom and mastery of the Word (cough) he tied a number of things together and spat out something that somehow ended up in his FOUNDATIONAL class. Yes, he put it together so masterfully that it was a foundational truth. I really couldn't follow his logic but here's an attempt: He believed that the face of the deep mentioned in Genesis 1:2 became the edge of the reservoir of water outside the firmament when the waters were separated. He went on to say that God often (always?)used water as a description of devil spirits. LCM saw devil spirits everywhere in the Word so no surprise that he saw them referred to in water everywhere. I don't remember and don't care what verse he used as the jumping off point to come to this conclusion but as his manner was, he read into a verse that used water to describe devil spirits and extrapolated it out to all verses that talked about water. He used the word deep in a similar fashion; found one place where deep may refer to devil spirits (or at least evilness) and then declared that anywhere the word deep was used it could be referring to devil spirits. He then declared that the great deep referred to in Genesis 7 was this water outside of the universe and that devil spirits resided there and that it was water from this great deep that flooded the earth during Noah's flood. Gen_7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. I believe that LCM put this in his foundational class (along with other stretches of "research" like the first sin of man)to show himself as a master teacher of the Word like VPW was. He had to have some wow factor in his class to set himself apart from all the offshoots that were simply reteaching VPW's material. But LCM lacked the intelligence and discipline necessary to really work the Word from a new angle and come up with anything solid. When I heard his face of the deep, Noah's flood explanation I concluded the following: Nowhere is the great deep described as being the reservoir of water (if it exists) outside the universe. LCM made this up. Even if it did refer to this reservoir think about it: We were taught that the devil cannot break the laws of nature and he doesn't have foreknowledge. He has to work within these laws or boundaries and he does not know the future. He has to respond to the times. In this case the growth of evil upon earth. So this water that is outside of the edge of the universe: how far away is it? Light years? Hundreds of light years? Thousands of light years? IF the earth's population had grown evil to the point that only Noah (and his family by grace) was worth saving (a specific time, window of opportunity) and this opened the door for the devil to try to destroy the earth and the devil did this with water from outside the universe: how did this water travel through the universe at above the speed of light to get to the earth at just the right time? Could it be transported from outside of the universe in a way that it would arrive on earth as water? Fortunately for me the holes in LCM's "research" opened the door for me to take a hard look not only at LCM's teachings but also VPW's (blasphemy!). Then the TWI's hold on me was loosened. Praise the Lord.

When I took the Advanced Class there was a point early in the class when the coordinator reproved our class for something being "not decent and in order". The coordinator then went off on a 15 minute oration about all the effort the class crew went through to make sure things were decent and in order, including stringing chairs. The coordinator said it was very important to God that every physical part of our life be decent and in order if we expected to hear from God and to be able to walk the walk of power. He then told us that VPW was so spiritually in tune that VPW could walk into a meeting room and declare that something was wrong or out of order without actually seeing it. He just KNEW there was something out of order. Of course the crew eventually found whatever it was (dirt behind a piece of furniture or something broken) and fixed it. This exuded ohhs and ahhs from our class. I thought of this recently as crews searched for the missing Malaysian plane. I was amazed at all the things they were finding that could have been a plane but turned out to be something else. If you are intently searching for something you may end up finding other things. I thought of VPW turning a whole setup crew into a search party to find whatever it was that was physically (and thus spiritually) not decent and in order. Oh they would find something. Then as we were watching the videos there was a segment where VPW was teaching and How Weird Allen came out with his tool box to show how having the holy spirit is like having a tool box. We have to be willing to use the tools. BUT, as VPW and Allen went through the different tools they came across a carpenter's level. VPW laid the level on the desk and got down and eyeballed it with Allen, then declared that the desk was not level and that Way Builders would fix it before the next session. I thought "wait a minute, I thought VPW could just "know" when something was not decent and in order. How could he have sat at an unlevel desk for hours and not "known" it.

There are plenty of verses that TWI takes out of context when it suits them. The first one I think of is II Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Private interpretation is a questionable translation of idios (one's own or his own) and epilusis (letting loose). They teach that private interpretation is "one's own letting loose". Fair enough. But then they go on to say that what that means is that no one today should privately interpret, turn their minds loose on the scripture. They then go on to say that anyone who says "I think this verse means..." is privately interpreting the scripture. If II Peter 1:20 sat by itself that may be one of the ways it could be taken. But the context is clearly not how scripture is interpreted but how the prophets of old received the revelation of the scripture. In another part of their classes they use the very next verse to show how we got the scripture: II Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. What I found interesting is that I don't recall them ever reading those two verses together as they should be. They always separated them. I wonder why? 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. TWI used this against anyone who looked at a verse and said "I think this means such and such" or more importantly, "I don't think this verse says what you are saying it says." I don't think there's anything wrong with someone saying "I think this verse means...". It helps me consider their point of view, consider their reasoning. If their argument is sound, then I give it more weight. If it's not sound, at least it got me to think. TWI doesn't want you to think. They want you to accept their interpretation of the scriptures. If there was such a thing as privately interpreting the scripture, they are guilty of it.

Nero, First, my condolences about your family getting back in. I've had friends who have gone back (not many) and some that have stayed although they are not very happy. I don't have any idea why this happens but I also know people who had left the Catholic church (Church?) and have gone back because they are "kinder, gentler". It must be a comfort thing. Concerning mark and avoid: your mom's name has probably traveled up and down the Way Tree numerous times and continues to do so. She is being monitored. Her fellowship coordinator may or may not be privy to this but the next level up certainly has asked how she is doing, if she's behaving, ABS'ing, serving in the "household" and has reported this info up to the next level eventually getting to HQ. Do you know anyone that was mark and avoid? Have her bring that person to fellowship and see what alarms go off. Yes, it is a "kinder, gentler" TWI. They were losing too many people to continue the way they were going but the religion behind the scenes is the same. VPW was an excellent con-man with charisma. He was able to build TWI into a real money-maker. LCM was (among other things)a bully with very little business sense. He shot himself and the business model in the foot often, driving people and money away. RFR is a bully too and many of the mandates that were put in place under LCM were her doing. She prefers the overreaching control but TWI continued to decline under her reign. She works behind the scene, getting others to champion her cause. If/when it fails someone else is the fall guy and she moves on to the next tactic. It just took a while to get to this "kinder, gentler" course (14 years after she took over). It took a while because she doesn't prefer it. If she preferred it it would have happened much sooner. But since her name/face is not on any direction TWI takes she is able to distance herself from the failures and take credit for the success (that which stops the decline). TWI will never amount to anything. It's got too much baggage and is frozen in VPW's doctrine which is easily proven to be flawed. It has become a dull denomination. Earlier you wrote "I told my mother once - isn't it better that I believe in god at all?". I suppose you have to afford her the same thing; be thankful that she believes in God and is trying to serve Him. God still works in the hearts of those who love Him. Sorry for the ramble.

Concerning Cain starting a "city": Looking at the word "city" (‛ı̂yr / ‛âr / ‛âyar) I see that Strong says: "From H5782 a city (a place guarded by waking or a watch) in the widest sense (even of a mere encampment or post): - Ai [from margin], city, court [from margin], town." and Brown-Driver-Briggs says similarly: "1) excitement, anguish 1a) of terror 2) city, town (a place of waking, guarded) 2a) city, town" and that it is from a word that means to rouse or awake. Given Cain's predicament as WordWolf noted below, especially "and whoever finds me will kill me" and that he not only had a wife but a new son it would make sense that he would want to find others to share an encampment where one of them could stay awake or stand watch. Between Cain feeling that others were trying to kill him and having a new son he probably wasn't getting much sleep. Why not get a group to share an encampment so that you have more eyes and ears to watch for trouble. I don't think we should let the English word "city" define what Cain started. Sorry, I must not have quoted or "snipped" correctly. WordWolf said: The question isn't "would he make a city?" but "WHY would he make a city?" Here's what we have, courtesy the NASB: Genesis 4:12-17. "12 When you cultivate the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you; you will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is too great to bear! 14 Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 So the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him. 16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. 17 Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son." So, we have that he made the city, which was VERY peculiar at the time. Without a specific verse saying "therefore he made a city", we look at his mindset at the time, his goals, his obstacles, and his life in general. We have very little to work with. What we have is 1) he won't be a successful farmer henceforth (he had been a farmer) 2) he will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the Earth, adrift, without a home (this troubled him to a degree) 3) the Presence of God would be hidden from Cain (which troubled him to a degree) 4) Cain thought whoever found him would kill him like he killed Abel (God addressed that one) So, with #4 no longer a concern, we have 1-3. Cain's reason would likely be one, two, or all of them. (I have no guarantee of this, but if I were a profiler, I'd be working from this as my speculative model.) Cain was hidden from the Presence of God- which could make him feel lonely, adrift. Cain was pronounced to be a vagrant and wanderer, a loner-which could make him feel lonely, adrift. Cain would need another way to get food or income other than farming- like raising cattle or taking up a trade depending on how many customers he could find. Despite the pronouncement, Cain was not forced to walk the Earth indefinitely, and was permitted to make his own choice, pick a spot of land, and settle down. To a degree, this would aid his attempt to do a job requiring a location-like raising cattle, farming (which he can't do himself), or practicing a crafting trade. Frankly, why WOULDN'T he pick a spot and settle down? He was already outside God's good graces, and starting up some kind of town would alleviate problems 2 & 3. I have no guarantee they're why he did it, but humans haven't changed so much in the intervening centuries that his motives would be alien to us.

Wierwille contradicted himself all the time. Wierwille was a walking contradiction. That’s one of the reasons criticism didn’t stick to him. If someone said “he said this” then someone else could say “Well, he also said that”. Wierwille told us we should stay with the group, no matter what. Let disagreements go. Wierwille broke away from his group and started his own and was applauded for it. Wierwille told us to believe and it would come to pass and that “wishing” was for losers. Wierwille’s whole life is summed up in “I wish I were the man I knew to be”. Wierwille told us not to have “private interpretation”, let the word interpret itself. Wierwille consistently offered up his own opinion of the word and it became gospel. Wierwille told us not to ask God for signs because God didn’t work that way and devil spirits would be more than happy to give us one. Wierwille bragged how he asked God to show him white hearts, black hearts, horserace winners, etc. One of the greatest incidents he would use to show his relationship with God was a requested snow storm. And the list goes on. Why I didn’t see it sooner baffles me. Don't give me this "all men are liars" and "all men are incongruous" crap. Most people who purport to stand for and represent God and least try to live by His standard. As Excie would say, Pffffft.

When the transition was made to RFR as president I heard so many people say "Isn't it great that no one has the absolute rule that LCM had? RFR has spread out the decision making. Safety in a multitude of counselors!" At first I bought into this. But then I noticed that nothing was ever done without my coordinator checking it all the way back up the way tree eventually to RFR and all directives seemed to be instigated by her. IMO she is a coward, unwilling to take accountability for her beliefs and decisions. She always has others do her speaking. There's no public record of RFR saying anything. By the way, my BC in the 90's was the type who would openly say "This directive comes from HQ. I don't know why they want this but this is what they want." when things that he didn't understand would come down from HQ. Once, he corrected himself after saying that and said "I'm not supposed to say this anymore. M. Fort got reamed for saying this." Maybe this is a little insight as to why M. Fort got drug over the coals. I had some interaction with M. Fort back in the late 80's and he seemed very kind and spoke honestly about things that concerned him that I also had concerns about. This gave me hope that there were leaders who knew there were issues that needed to be corrected and were working on it. In the early 2000's I ran into him at a regional conference and expressed my dismay at some of the things I was seeing. M. Fort was a different guy then. He was fully on board with the way things were headed. Would not entertain any contrary thoughts. I was very disappointed and that period of time was the beginning of the end for me.

Actually that's a good question for them. Do they know anything new? How about: Who are the current board of directors? Who are the current officers? You don't need to know the answer. What may be apparent is they don't know with certainty either. Where are they from? Not specifically. Are they close to New Knoxville? The further they are from there the better they will be.

The idea that one could believe to live forever is the logical conclusion of their law of believing doctrine. To cover for or explain why bad things happened to good people, TWI would always take it back to the believing of the individual. For instance: the record of Stephen getting stoned to death in Acts. The majority of the times that I heard that record taught in TWI it was stated that the reason Stephen died was because he "quit believing". Never mind that in the chapter preceeding this record it is noted twice that Stephen was "full of faith" and of the Holy Spirit and power. I also heard them teach that Paul eventually died because he quit believing and "got tired of the fight". This was a common thing they would teach, that people died when they got tired of the fight. So logically, if one could never get tired of the fight and never quit believing, they'd live forever. I remember when Wierwille died people repeatedly said he "got tired of the fight" and turned his face to the wall and quit believing. Bullsheet. His magic of believing failed him. For someone to die at a seemingly early age flew in the face of TWI's law of believing doctrine. So they said Stephen "quit believing". What? Chapter and verse please.

Wasn't Rosie supposed to be a temporary solution until someone competent could take over? Anybody that had any kind of charisma or decent personality at all was run off or ran off. Any “rising star” was sent away. Or Rosie the black widow would spin her web around them until they couldn’t move. When I was still in I heard that TWI was moving to two groups of head leadership: the Board of Directors and officers. I never really understood it but then some explained that the officers were the day to day hands on people but they couldn’t do anything without the approval of the board of directors. Well, if Rosie stayed on the board of directors and made sure that the other board members were her lackeys then no matter who the president was they couldn’t do anything (make major changes) without the approval of the board of directors. I found it amusing that TWI under Rosie became what both Wierwille and Martindale hated, a dull, lifeless denomination under the control of a completely incompetent board of directors. Good luck waiting for your knight in shining armor. You’re going to be waiting a looooooong time.