A discussion on what constitutes an error is off-topic for this thread. I'm tempted to answer your post, but not here. If you REALLY care to have an HONEST discussion about what ACTUALly constitutes an ERROR, and whether we've been nitpicking more than pointing out real mistakes, then you know where to take that conversation. This conversation was substantive. Let's keep it that way.
P.S. I edited the post where I pointed out your "former/latter" mistake.
EDIT:
I couldn't resist: I moved Mike's post above to the actual errors thread, and replied there. FYI.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on April 10, 2003 at 16:18.]
LOL..talk about mega posts...you just became King of the Hill, or biggie posts, Mike.
Okay..Mike, let's get one thing clear. I will not, under any circumstance accept any Corps person for being at blame for the corrupt teachings of the Bible found in PFAL. That was a tactic that leadership used when they got caught with their pants down around their ankles, and obviously, some feel it is still a good way to go.
Also, the Corps only imitated what was done to them and what they were taught to do. I managed VP's dressing room at the heartbeat festival in New York, I believe it was back in 1977. If you think he wasn't catered to with all his fine china cups and saucers, strategically placed around his dressing room, you are dead wrong. He was treated like a King and he liked it. The fish stinks at the head, Mike, and you can't go blaming the scales because the head is stinky.
(and no, I am not saying Corps grads are scaly ;-)
Second, PFAL, was corrupt from its very roots and that was not and is not the fault of any Corps, or old grad/new grad.
The problem is, TWI drew in many many wonderful people that only wanted to serve God and help people and make a difference, and then they turn around and treat the PFAL class and it's materials with A LOT more respect than they ever received and most certainly with more respect than TWI EVER doled out to any other Christian Church or ministry.
So of course, not too many people are going to come out and say PFAL was a bootlegged, mangled copy of sensationalistic crap surrounded by a few truths here and there to make it look good.
Also, as for mastering those damn colaterals, I could tell you want I got on the Advanced Class test, but that would embarrass you, as my score was extremely high...high..high I tell you. (My Hubby's scored was a fewpoints higher) Secondly, you will then say that that doesn't prove I mastered it or 'graduated from my sense knowledge to a spiritual understanding..." Besides I read those books and did Master them...and that is why I can tell you that with all the accolades that I Already admitted VP said about Jesus Christ..he at the same time, states quite emphatically that the Word of God replaces the absent Christ in our lives. Now, you won't see how he was crossing purposes there..not the Corps, not the old grads..but old VP himself. He was saying one thing and doing another. I don't know if you even agreed with that statement VP made and instead are doing a song and dance to cover it up and/or blame it on the next guy.
Which is nothing but a bunch of hoowah cause it is the Lord that works on our hearts..it is the witness of the Holy Spirit that causes us to believe..not how much we have worked in our flesh to build up our five senses to graduate anywhere...to attain any more...geez...
I am going to respond to some of the points in your thread..so bear bare with the mega-ness of it.
Okay..Mike you said that we are to seek Him out in God's Word. You siad, "If we see Him in the Word of God, we've graduated to a spiritual sight of Him."
Huh? What about those who don't have Bibles like we have, who can't afford them or can't have them due to persecution??
Are they denied a spiritual understanding of Christ? Is God limited to this Book that too many worship INSTEAD of the Lord? Doesn't it say the very creation declares the glory of God? Hasn't this conversation been held on the spot before many times??
Christians the world over have a very depth relationship with Christ and God w/o the Bible because they, for whatever reasons, can't own one. Yet, they are able to endure severe persecutions and extreme poverty and not lose faith.
There is more to having a relationship with Christ and God than reading the Bible.
You aksed me if I saw the quote that VP said that Jesus Christ had an active hand in the day of Pentecost.
First let me point out the lunacy of having to look up quotes from a man to prove that he really believed in Christ or that he was a Christian minister. If a man was a true minister of the Lord Jesus Christ, then his ministry would just have been so over abundant in revealing and glorifying the Kings and Kings, one would not have to look very far or for long to prove that.
In other words, this kind of conversation would not be happening.
But Jesus Christ had more (past tense..of course..and most of the accolades that VP did were past tense...he did it...but what about NOW..that infernal question that I keep asking....why don't the masterful collaterals of PFAL have what Jesus is doing NOW?)
He had more than an active hand in the day of Pentecost...Jesus did the actual outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon His church...Jesus received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and it was Jesus who gave it out....
Acts 2:33
Now wouldn't it have been great that it was acknowledge and written by VP that not only did Jesus Christ pour out the Holy Spirit upon His church that day but He continued to work and bring increase to His church..and worked with those believers??
Are we to believe that Jesus Christ, on the day of Pentecost did a one time action then sat down and never repeated it again? We were all taught that God gives what He is...holy and spirit..does the Bible saying it was Jesus doing the outpouring and giving contradict that?
Does Jesus continue to give out the gift that was promised by God? It doesn't say He hasn't stopped..yet this was not in those collaterals, no matter how many times they are read.
I Corin 12:4...there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit....
verse 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord....
verse 6..And there are diversities of operations, but the same God...
These verses are not saying it is the same God in all three verses..but the Holy Spirit...Lord who is Jesus Christ and God. Jesus Christ does have an active role in His church in the here and now and this one verse tells us one function....
back to Acts....
Acts 2:47......And the Lord added to the church daily...yes that is Jesus...
Acts 5:14 And the believers were the more added to the Lord... He was/is gathering His people TO Him
Acts Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them;....
He was there to teach Paul the gospel..He was there to talk to good old Ananais...
Eph 4:8 when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men...Jesus Christ gave gifts to men...gifts to help His church..is the giving stopped? Are there any more apostles prophets or teachers and so forth? Why do we think then He would have stopped giving the gifts?
Is it Romans or Corinithians that says it is the Lord Jesus that makes us able to stand.
How does this equate with an absent Savior? It doesn't and that is why the Bible does not speak of Him as something past and something future..He is now...
And yes..TWI, VP got it wrong, so wrong doctrinally. And no one else can be blamed for that, especially if they didn't know any better and bought into VP saying in the PFAL class (and as cited elsewhere) that God would teach him the word as it hadn't been known since the first century church.
So in presentation or in doctrination..it was way way off...
I remember that article in the Way Rag saying what is he doing up there. It was a timely article because no one knew and were always asking (and rightly so).
The last and only part I will address and in the future, I won't be reading any more of your threads or responding unless we end up on someone else's thread together..but Mike..you can talk to everyone on greasespot, you can speak to my husband and my children, you could talk to my parents if they were still alive.. and all you would get from them is the side that they knew me as...mother, daughter, wife, friend...but you would not get me nor would you have a relationship with me. You would just have to come to me to have that relationship. The same with Jesus Christ. We go to Him.
[This message was edited by Mandii on April 10, 2003 at 16:01.]
quote:I remember that article in the Way Rag saying what is he doing up there. It was a timely article because no one knew and were always asking (and rightly so).
The last and only part I will address and in the future, I won't be reading any more of your threads or responding unless we end up on someone else's thread together..but Mike..you can talk to everyone on greasespot, you can speak to my husband and my children, you could talk to my parents if they were still alive.. and all you would get from them is the side that they knew me as...mother, daughter, wife, friend...but you would not get me nor would you have a relationship with me. You would just have to come to me to have that relationship. The same with Jesus Christ. We go to Him.
Mandii, this is the BEST explanation I have heard regarding a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. I have been constirnating about this for quite some time. I know Jesus has a more active role in the Body since he's the Head. It was so hard to figure it out since twi made him absent. Thank you, thank you, thank you!! Anything else you can share would be greatly appreciated!!
If anybody has a copy of this article from the previous way rag, please let me know. I really want to see it. I think it was before my time.
Faith is daring the soul to go beyond what the eyes can see.
So THAT's your strateegery, drag me away to another thread. Well you'll need a bunker buster or 4 to get me out of here now!
I may send in Special Ops when the moon is dim to scout out your response, and it's time stamp is being fed into my GPS (God's Perfect Scope).
*******************
Mandii, let's just mega agree to disagree on some of that stuff. I'll put it into my backlog, but I owe sirguessalot a megasponse for days.
This TVT separation is not something I expect anyone to crank out overnight. After 5 years of concerted effort, I still accidentally merge the record with things I picked up on the fly from the rotten grapevine.
I just did that very thing a few days ago with Jesse Joe, where I merged the record with my POST meltdown anecdotal knowledge of splinter groups. The surety levels are much different. In other words, we may disagree less as you get the hang of it and separate more and more the errors in the TVT from the actual text.
As we see what?s written we can get blessed by PFAL again, and this time there?s no 5-senses TWI there to limit it and corrupt it. We?re all on our own, just you and God in Christ in you and the written Word.
It?s a lot like the unsupervised expansion of the USA population Westward (ho), where the pioneers on THAT frontier brought their Bibles, but not their organized religion. The West, which included Ohio in the 1850?s, was settled by all kinds of experimenting Bible readers and believers.
Oooh Oooh! Muldune... I mean Rafael, I just thought of something else, from the word ?experimenting" above in my post above. Here?s where I can explain my message being more addressed to OLGs, and hence I can understand why it?s not fitting for you right now.
It?s risk. There is a certain amount of experimenting involved with hearing what I?m saying and trying it on to see if it fits from the inside. It?s risky. I said earlier, in jail, I think, that if what I?m communicating is incorrect, then I?m in deep Tootey.
There is risk in experimenting with believing (which comes by hearing) in my mesaage. Those who didn?t see the good old days have less reason to risk in this direction, than the OLGs (older leader grads) that DID see the good times.
Here?s where JerryB is correct in labeling it a feeling that I?m shooting for, if only he means the complex feel that comes from the many other items I mentioned: miracles, cooperation, etc etc.
Because some of us OLGs have that feel, the STRONG conviction that something extremely pure pass right by us and was gone, then I can only reasonably appeal to those OLGs to risk all and get their spiritual assurance from God to start obeying Dr and come back to this Word in PFAL addressed to us.
In earlier posts I noted that it?s the FEELING I get sitting at the end of the runway, coupled with lots of head knowledge about how airplanes work, that helps me take the risk of flying.
I don?t think it?s reasonable of me to ask you to believe this thesis I?m presenting, Rafael.
I am thankful that I have the opportunity to discuss these things with you in a civil atmosphere, though. In fact, this discussion, for me, is a total application of Pawtucket?s Principle, enunciated a few days ago in court when he ascended to the Drivel Docket.
Mike, the reason I reject your thesis has NOTHING to do with when I took PFAL, or the fact that I never met Wierwille. I reject your thesis because it does not stand to Biblical or logical scrutiny. It is disprovable on every major point, and most minor ones. Your only evidence is a reliance on circular reasoning: God spoke to Wierwille because Wierwille said God spoke to Wierwille, which is true because Wierwille said God spoke to Wierwille...
Psst: There was no covenant of 1942.
The reason for the similarities isn't Divine Authorship, it's plagiarism.
The errors really are errors, and they go FAR beyond typos and ink blots.
Here?s a mini-response to a mini-slice of your megapost. You wrote: ?VP said about Jesus Christ..he at the same time, states quite emphatically that the Word of God replaces the absent Christ in our lives.?
The way the Word ?replaces? him is by describing him while he?s invisible. God did SOMETHING in Acts Chapter One where a cloud hid him from their sight. GOD did that hiding, not TWI or Dr or PFAL. Now, while he?s hidden that way, God has a better way for us to see him.
If we saw him with our 5-senses now we?d never bother seeing him deeper, spiritually in the Word. This is the reason Jesus HID HIS OWN IDENTITY, temporarily from the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.
Notice the sequence: first he taught them all the OT scriptures on himself, THEN he showed them the flesh identity. He did not give them the experiences in the opposite order.
Had he first given them a non-Word explanation as to who he was like ?Surprise! It?s ME! Look at these scars!? then they would NEVER had had the heavenly heart burn they got from the Word. They?d have been too distracted and in too much enjoyment of the flesh 5-senses blessing to see the spiritual one.
This is the order God gave it to us: first the pure Word description of what GOD thinks is important for us to groove on about his Son, THEN we get to see him when he appears in the flesh and we can groove on all the individualistic things that the relationship means to each one of us as we differ in the flesh. Spiritually we don?t differ.
Now, just for accuracy, here?s the passage you referenced on pages 230-231 in the PFAL book.
************************************
PFAL p.230-31
If the Word of God is wrong, I am going to be wrong; but if the Word of God is right, then I have everything to gain by taking it as my sole center of reference. I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God's Word. I believe that the Bible gives the truth regarding man's redemption, his dominion and authority and power over all God's creation. I believe that the Bible gives the truth regarding Jesus Christ, His coming, His death, His resurrection, His ascension, God's giving of the truth regarding the new heaven and the new earth which God is going to establish. I believe that the Bible gives truth, not facts. Anything man does, anything man makes, is a fact. I believe that the Word of God is Truth - Truth which is eternal, the same yesterday, today, and forever. I believe that the revelation of the Word of God is an absolute necessity for the natural man. If the senses man is going to be a complete man, he must have an accurate knowledge of God's Word.
Then let me amend or supplant my post with this: you're not being there is just cause for you to not take the risk.
There may be other reasons to not make this risky bet, but I think even if those intellectual items lined up, without the feelings I described about OLGs and PFAL and frightful fliers at the runway's foot, jumping into this trajectory I'm on is the epitome leap of faith.
Matt. 6:20 Lay up for yourself treasure in heaven.
25:34 Come you blessed by my father, inherit the Kingdom PREPARED FOR YOU from the foundation of the world.
col.1:5 (the hope which is LAID UP FOR YOU IN HEAVEN about which you heard in the word of Truth, the Gospel)
1Peter 1: 4 (an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, which does not fade awa, RESERVED IN HEAVEN. for you.
the MESSIAH and Son was forordained by the Father from eternity MIKE!
John 8:58 and 17:5 .
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT GRAMMER????
It was given to you and Jesus whom God loved before the foundation of the worldEph1:4 You may therefore say that you now "have" that glory although it is glory in promise and prospect , to be gained at the SEcond coming.
Paul can say that we "have " a new body with God in heaven (11Cor.5.1)-ie we have the PROMISE of it, not in actuality.
We now" have" it in anticipation and promise only.
Mike you are on insulting piece of drivel all on your own ..
God rewarded JESUS Christ Mike because He asked God for us... for a Kingdom that He would Rule with a new body.
So just when are you going to Do that work hmmmm????
I do wish you would stop the mind games as well I never approached you you a sorry piece of crap when confronted with bible verses.. go get your feeble fan club and drivel some were eles.
How many miricles have you done MIKE????
let them come and speak on your behalf today...
hahahahahahaha
YOU want to be LORD , I am thankful I know Who the Lord is and will be for all ETERNITY. it isnt vpw either...
Mandi I take your lead and bow out of this with a deep respect and thank you...
Unless he pises me off again ... aaah it is annoying ist it?
I will write small words for you to understand this .. Before God made the foundation of the world He knew who was PREORDAINED to do the Messianic work . Jesus Christ is done with that work God rewarded Him when He asked to be our King in the new kingdom and allows Him to be with God now.
God also knew before the foundation of the earth who would believe on Jesus Christ do the same works because He asked the Father for us ...to do the works He did. Which is complete.
Do not try and tell me pfal is part of Gods plan...it is written He knows who will be there and who will not long before pfal or the bible.
Once again the bible has stood pfal has not.
[This message was edited by mj412 on April 10, 2003 at 18:56.]
Belittling condescension is not my attitude behind it my remarks about OLGs and risk..
I'm trying to do the opposite and show you some respect. Honest.
I know this theses sounds outlandish. I think a relatively smaller group of people were selected as being reckless enough to be the first to believe this outlandish thesis.
We OLGs used to talk about "renewed mind recklessness" among a bunch of reckless hippies. The entire decades of the 80's and 90's have sculpted a much less risk taking population when it comes to these kinds of matters. Somehow I don?t see Craig talking about ?renewed mind recklessness? in TWI-2. I could be wrong.
When we OLGs first took PFAL, the nuclear fears of the 50?s and Oct?62 had hardly worn off when we found that we were going to die in conventional fire anyway in Vietnam. This stimulated an entire sub-class of baby boomers to drop out of school, society, and life. We were trained by circumstances to take many wild risks of our own choosing, because we were subjected to some pretty nasty risks not of our own choosing. The draft then was more than a potential body snatcher, it took our very own school chums every month.
Things really changed bigtime around 1980 and risk became socially taboo. Few practiced risk confrontation like us OLGs.
I?m just saying we OLGs have, but historical accident, a higher threshold to think outside the bounds. Some of us even went to Canada.
I simply initially expect OLGs to be in a better position to see that this is a good risk and then take it.
I?ll be delighted to see if you, or any other grad who never saw our ministry flourishing and healthy, are an exception to my expectation. Honest! By believing my thesis you?ll prove it wrong for sure.
Here is a section from what Mike posted out of PFAL p.230-31. Just to clarify, it is a VPW quote.
quote: I believe that the Bible gives the truth regarding Jesus Christ, His coming, His death, His resurrection, His ascension, God's giving of the truth regarding the new heaven and the new earth which God is going to establish.
From this ?just for accuracy? posting by Mike, I would like to point out that VP suspiciously went from the ascension, to God's giving of the truth regarding the new heaven and the new earth.
Hum. Appears to be something missing to me. After Jesus? ascension VP skipped ahead.
Mike, how do you explain that?
For any new lurkers out there confused by Mike?s references to Drivel Court, I am posting a link.
Please take note of the subtopic discussing whether Mike?s threads belong in the About the Way section, the Doctrinal section or whether they deserve a section all their own.
BTW, I have never emailed Paw about another poster on this board. All the opinions I choose to share are public.
Your Secondary Thesis of Dr. (STD), which concerns who will believe your Primary Thesis of the History of the Prophetic Teacher's Hermeneutics (PTHPTH) is safe.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on April 10, 2003 at 20:56.]
Thanks for catching the spirit of the original version of my post, mj. I thought I broke my promise not to get personal, so I edited it. I hope you're still amused by the edited version.
quote:The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it stands. Let?s see this from John 5:39. ?Search the scriptures ?.? It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille?s writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, ?Search the scriptures?.? because all Scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures -- they are God-breathed.
VP, by his own words, condemns your thesis, Mike. If in fact, VP?s writings are God-breathed then in this paragraph, God lied. The Bible states God is not a man, that He should lie. (Numbers 23:19)
Think about it. Either God lied or all of VP?s writing are not God-breathed. Which way is it?
As VP said, "SOMEONE'S GOT TO BE A LIER!"
Either God lied, or VP lied when he said not all of his writings are God-breathed.
You say they are, VP says they aren't. Who is right?
I already tried this. Mike feels if he declares at least one of Wierwille's works as non-canonical, he gets off the hook on this one. That's why the Advanced Class is not in Mike's Testament.
So, it boils down to Mike totally disregarding VP?s God-breathed words. Not good, not good at all!
VP says to search the scriptures and then quotes John 5:39, John 17:8, John 17:17, etc. By his very quotes he is indicating which ?scripture? to search. And then Mike blows off the God-breathed ?word? and searches what he wants?
Could be a case of private interpretation.
Mike YOU know what PFAL says about private interpretation? Not good, not good at all!
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Raf
Mike,
A discussion on what constitutes an error is off-topic for this thread. I'm tempted to answer your post, but not here. If you REALLY care to have an HONEST discussion about what ACTUALly constitutes an ERROR, and whether we've been nitpicking more than pointing out real mistakes, then you know where to take that conversation. This conversation was substantive. Let's keep it that way.
P.S. I edited the post where I pointed out your "former/latter" mistake.
EDIT:
I couldn't resist: I moved Mike's post above to the actual errors thread, and replied there. FYI.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on April 10, 2003 at 16:18.]
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Mandii
LOL..talk about mega posts...you just became King of the Hill, or biggie posts, Mike.
Okay..Mike, let's get one thing clear. I will not, under any circumstance accept any Corps person for being at blame for the corrupt teachings of the Bible found in PFAL. That was a tactic that leadership used when they got caught with their pants down around their ankles, and obviously, some feel it is still a good way to go.
Also, the Corps only imitated what was done to them and what they were taught to do. I managed VP's dressing room at the heartbeat festival in New York, I believe it was back in 1977. If you think he wasn't catered to with all his fine china cups and saucers, strategically placed around his dressing room, you are dead wrong. He was treated like a King and he liked it. The fish stinks at the head, Mike, and you can't go blaming the scales because the head is stinky.
(and no, I am not saying Corps grads are scaly ;-)
Second, PFAL, was corrupt from its very roots and that was not and is not the fault of any Corps, or old grad/new grad.
The problem is, TWI drew in many many wonderful people that only wanted to serve God and help people and make a difference, and then they turn around and treat the PFAL class and it's materials with A LOT more respect than they ever received and most certainly with more respect than TWI EVER doled out to any other Christian Church or ministry.
So of course, not too many people are going to come out and say PFAL was a bootlegged, mangled copy of sensationalistic crap surrounded by a few truths here and there to make it look good.
Also, as for mastering those damn colaterals, I could tell you want I got on the Advanced Class test, but that would embarrass you, as my score was extremely high...high..high I tell you. (My Hubby's scored was a fewpoints higher) Secondly, you will then say that that doesn't prove I mastered it or 'graduated from my sense knowledge to a spiritual understanding..." Besides I read those books and did Master them...and that is why I can tell you that with all the accolades that I Already admitted VP said about Jesus Christ..he at the same time, states quite emphatically that the Word of God replaces the absent Christ in our lives. Now, you won't see how he was crossing purposes there..not the Corps, not the old grads..but old VP himself. He was saying one thing and doing another. I don't know if you even agreed with that statement VP made and instead are doing a song and dance to cover it up and/or blame it on the next guy.
Which is nothing but a bunch of hoowah cause it is the Lord that works on our hearts..it is the witness of the Holy Spirit that causes us to believe..not how much we have worked in our flesh to build up our five senses to graduate anywhere...to attain any more...geez...
I am going to respond to some of the points in your thread..so bear bare with the mega-ness of it.
Okay..Mike you said that we are to seek Him out in God's Word. You siad, "If we see Him in the Word of God, we've graduated to a spiritual sight of Him."
Huh? What about those who don't have Bibles like we have, who can't afford them or can't have them due to persecution??
Are they denied a spiritual understanding of Christ? Is God limited to this Book that too many worship INSTEAD of the Lord? Doesn't it say the very creation declares the glory of God? Hasn't this conversation been held on the spot before many times??
Christians the world over have a very depth relationship with Christ and God w/o the Bible because they, for whatever reasons, can't own one. Yet, they are able to endure severe persecutions and extreme poverty and not lose faith.
There is more to having a relationship with Christ and God than reading the Bible.
You aksed me if I saw the quote that VP said that Jesus Christ had an active hand in the day of Pentecost.
First let me point out the lunacy of having to look up quotes from a man to prove that he really believed in Christ or that he was a Christian minister. If a man was a true minister of the Lord Jesus Christ, then his ministry would just have been so over abundant in revealing and glorifying the Kings and Kings, one would not have to look very far or for long to prove that.
In other words, this kind of conversation would not be happening.
But Jesus Christ had more (past tense..of course..and most of the accolades that VP did were past tense...he did it...but what about NOW..that infernal question that I keep asking....why don't the masterful collaterals of PFAL have what Jesus is doing NOW?)
He had more than an active hand in the day of Pentecost...Jesus did the actual outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon His church...Jesus received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and it was Jesus who gave it out....
Acts 2:33
Now wouldn't it have been great that it was acknowledge and written by VP that not only did Jesus Christ pour out the Holy Spirit upon His church that day but He continued to work and bring increase to His church..and worked with those believers??
Are we to believe that Jesus Christ, on the day of Pentecost did a one time action then sat down and never repeated it again? We were all taught that God gives what He is...holy and spirit..does the Bible saying it was Jesus doing the outpouring and giving contradict that?
Does Jesus continue to give out the gift that was promised by God? It doesn't say He hasn't stopped..yet this was not in those collaterals, no matter how many times they are read.
I Corin 12:4...there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit....
verse 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord....
verse 6..And there are diversities of operations, but the same God...
These verses are not saying it is the same God in all three verses..but the Holy Spirit...Lord who is Jesus Christ and God. Jesus Christ does have an active role in His church in the here and now and this one verse tells us one function....
back to Acts....
Acts 2:47......And the Lord added to the church daily...yes that is Jesus...
Acts 5:14 And the believers were the more added to the Lord... He was/is gathering His people TO Him
Acts Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them;....
He was there to teach Paul the gospel..He was there to talk to good old Ananais...
Eph 4:8 when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men...Jesus Christ gave gifts to men...gifts to help His church..is the giving stopped? Are there any more apostles prophets or teachers and so forth? Why do we think then He would have stopped giving the gifts?
Is it Romans or Corinithians that says it is the Lord Jesus that makes us able to stand.
How does this equate with an absent Savior? It doesn't and that is why the Bible does not speak of Him as something past and something future..He is now...
And yes..TWI, VP got it wrong, so wrong doctrinally. And no one else can be blamed for that, especially if they didn't know any better and bought into VP saying in the PFAL class (and as cited elsewhere) that God would teach him the word as it hadn't been known since the first century church.
So in presentation or in doctrination..it was way way off...
I remember that article in the Way Rag saying what is he doing up there. It was a timely article because no one knew and were always asking (and rightly so).
The last and only part I will address and in the future, I won't be reading any more of your threads or responding unless we end up on someone else's thread together..but Mike..you can talk to everyone on greasespot, you can speak to my husband and my children, you could talk to my parents if they were still alive.. and all you would get from them is the side that they knew me as...mother, daughter, wife, friend...but you would not get me nor would you have a relationship with me. You would just have to come to me to have that relationship. The same with Jesus Christ. We go to Him.
[This message was edited by Mandii on April 10, 2003 at 16:01.]
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Nottawayfer
Quote from Mandii:
Mandii, this is the BEST explanation I have heard regarding a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. I have been constirnating about this for quite some time. I know Jesus has a more active role in the Body since he's the Head. It was so hard to figure it out since twi made him absent. Thank you, thank you, thank you!! Anything else you can share would be greatly appreciated!!
If anybody has a copy of this article from the previous way rag, please let me know. I really want to see it. I think it was before my time.
Faith is daring the soul to go beyond what the eyes can see.
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WordWolf
That's just it, though, Mandii.
As fas as Mike has said, without pfal, using
only the Bible (aka the Bible remnants,
fragments, tatters, debris, or whatever you'd
like to put as The Word there), those
Christians, no matter HOW many signs, miracles
and wonders they've seen, no matter how much
joy in their lives, no matter how much
deliverance, don't REALLY have a relationship
with Christ. They can't. They lack the tools
as much as someone without a rocketship can't
reach the moon.
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Mike
Rafael,
So THAT's your strateegery, drag me away to another thread. Well you'll need a bunker buster or 4 to get me out of here now!
I may send in Special Ops when the moon is dim to scout out your response, and it's time stamp is being fed into my GPS (God's Perfect Scope).
*******************
Mandii, let's just mega agree to disagree on some of that stuff. I'll put it into my backlog, but I owe sirguessalot a megasponse for days.
This TVT separation is not something I expect anyone to crank out overnight. After 5 years of concerted effort, I still accidentally merge the record with things I picked up on the fly from the rotten grapevine.
I just did that very thing a few days ago with Jesse Joe, where I merged the record with my POST meltdown anecdotal knowledge of splinter groups. The surety levels are much different. In other words, we may disagree less as you get the hang of it and separate more and more the errors in the TVT from the actual text.
As we see what?s written we can get blessed by PFAL again, and this time there?s no 5-senses TWI there to limit it and corrupt it. We?re all on our own, just you and God in Christ in you and the written Word.
It?s a lot like the unsupervised expansion of the USA population Westward (ho), where the pioneers on THAT frontier brought their Bibles, but not their organized religion. The West, which included Ohio in the 1850?s, was settled by all kinds of experimenting Bible readers and believers.
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Mike
Oooh Oooh! Muldune... I mean Rafael, I just thought of something else, from the word ?experimenting" above in my post above. Here?s where I can explain my message being more addressed to OLGs, and hence I can understand why it?s not fitting for you right now.
It?s risk. There is a certain amount of experimenting involved with hearing what I?m saying and trying it on to see if it fits from the inside. It?s risky. I said earlier, in jail, I think, that if what I?m communicating is incorrect, then I?m in deep Tootey.
There is risk in experimenting with believing (which comes by hearing) in my mesaage. Those who didn?t see the good old days have less reason to risk in this direction, than the OLGs (older leader grads) that DID see the good times.
Here?s where JerryB is correct in labeling it a feeling that I?m shooting for, if only he means the complex feel that comes from the many other items I mentioned: miracles, cooperation, etc etc.
Because some of us OLGs have that feel, the STRONG conviction that something extremely pure pass right by us and was gone, then I can only reasonably appeal to those OLGs to risk all and get their spiritual assurance from God to start obeying Dr and come back to this Word in PFAL addressed to us.
In earlier posts I noted that it?s the FEELING I get sitting at the end of the runway, coupled with lots of head knowledge about how airplanes work, that helps me take the risk of flying.
I don?t think it?s reasonable of me to ask you to believe this thesis I?m presenting, Rafael.
I am thankful that I have the opportunity to discuss these things with you in a civil atmosphere, though. In fact, this discussion, for me, is a total application of Pawtucket?s Principle, enunciated a few days ago in court when he ascended to the Drivel Docket.
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AdiosMiCorazon
Is this a competition? So far, I think Mike has the longest posts.
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Raf
Goodness, this is so annoying!
Mike, the reason I reject your thesis has NOTHING to do with when I took PFAL, or the fact that I never met Wierwille. I reject your thesis because it does not stand to Biblical or logical scrutiny. It is disprovable on every major point, and most minor ones. Your only evidence is a reliance on circular reasoning: God spoke to Wierwille because Wierwille said God spoke to Wierwille, which is true because Wierwille said God spoke to Wierwille...
Psst: There was no covenant of 1942.
The reason for the similarities isn't Divine Authorship, it's plagiarism.
The errors really are errors, and they go FAR beyond typos and ink blots.
Oh, forget it.
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Mike
Audios Mic,
However, you need to factor out the Pasted Portions I post from the record.
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Mike
Mandii,
Here?s a mini-response to a mini-slice of your megapost. You wrote: ?VP said about Jesus Christ..he at the same time, states quite emphatically that the Word of God replaces the absent Christ in our lives.?
The way the Word ?replaces? him is by describing him while he?s invisible. God did SOMETHING in Acts Chapter One where a cloud hid him from their sight. GOD did that hiding, not TWI or Dr or PFAL. Now, while he?s hidden that way, God has a better way for us to see him.
If we saw him with our 5-senses now we?d never bother seeing him deeper, spiritually in the Word. This is the reason Jesus HID HIS OWN IDENTITY, temporarily from the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.
Notice the sequence: first he taught them all the OT scriptures on himself, THEN he showed them the flesh identity. He did not give them the experiences in the opposite order.
Had he first given them a non-Word explanation as to who he was like ?Surprise! It?s ME! Look at these scars!? then they would NEVER had had the heavenly heart burn they got from the Word. They?d have been too distracted and in too much enjoyment of the flesh 5-senses blessing to see the spiritual one.
This is the order God gave it to us: first the pure Word description of what GOD thinks is important for us to groove on about his Son, THEN we get to see him when he appears in the flesh and we can groove on all the individualistic things that the relationship means to each one of us as we differ in the flesh. Spiritually we don?t differ.
Now, just for accuracy, here?s the passage you referenced on pages 230-231 in the PFAL book.
************************************
PFAL p.230-31
If the Word of God is wrong, I am going to be wrong; but if the Word of God is right, then I have everything to gain by taking it as my sole center of reference. I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God's Word. I believe that the Bible gives the truth regarding man's redemption, his dominion and authority and power over all God's creation. I believe that the Bible gives the truth regarding Jesus Christ, His coming, His death, His resurrection, His ascension, God's giving of the truth regarding the new heaven and the new earth which God is going to establish. I believe that the Bible gives truth, not facts. Anything man does, anything man makes, is a fact. I believe that the Word of God is Truth - Truth which is eternal, the same yesterday, today, and forever. I believe that the revelation of the Word of God is an absolute necessity for the natural man. If the senses man is going to be a complete man, he must have an accurate knowledge of God's Word.
.
.
.
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Mike
Rafael,
Then let me amend or supplant my post with this: you're not being there is just cause for you to not take the risk.
There may be other reasons to not make this risky bet, but I think even if those intellectual items lined up, without the feelings I described about OLGs and PFAL and frightful fliers at the runway's foot, jumping into this trajectory I'm on is the epitome leap of faith.
I think some OLGs can do it.
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Raf
The level of condescension in your thesis is astounding. Truly...
Ok, maybe not astounding. How about...
predictable, considering the icon you seek to validate.
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mj412
Matt. 6:20 Lay up for yourself treasure in heaven.
25:34 Come you blessed by my father, inherit the Kingdom PREPARED FOR YOU from the foundation of the world.
col.1:5 (the hope which is LAID UP FOR YOU IN HEAVEN about which you heard in the word of Truth, the Gospel)
1Peter 1: 4 (an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, which does not fade awa, RESERVED IN HEAVEN. for you.
the MESSIAH and Son was forordained by the Father from eternity MIKE!
John 8:58 and 17:5 .
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT GRAMMER????
It was given to you and Jesus whom God loved before the foundation of the worldEph1:4 You may therefore say that you now "have" that glory although it is glory in promise and prospect , to be gained at the SEcond coming.
Paul can say that we "have " a new body with God in heaven (11Cor.5.1)-ie we have the PROMISE of it, not in actuality.
We now" have" it in anticipation and promise only.
Mike you are on insulting piece of drivel all on your own ..
God rewarded JESUS Christ Mike because He asked God for us... for a Kingdom that He would Rule with a new body.
So just when are you going to Do that work hmmmm????
I do wish you would stop the mind games as well I never approached you you a sorry piece of crap when confronted with bible verses.. go get your feeble fan club and drivel some were eles.
How many miricles have you done MIKE????
let them come and speak on your behalf today...
hahahahahahaha
YOU want to be LORD , I am thankful I know Who the Lord is and will be for all ETERNITY. it isnt vpw either...
Mandi I take your lead and bow out of this with a deep respect and thank you...
Unless he pises me off again ... aaah it is annoying ist it?
I will write small words for you to understand this .. Before God made the foundation of the world He knew who was PREORDAINED to do the Messianic work . Jesus Christ is done with that work God rewarded Him when He asked to be our King in the new kingdom and allows Him to be with God now.
God also knew before the foundation of the earth who would believe on Jesus Christ do the same works because He asked the Father for us ...to do the works He did. Which is complete.
Do not try and tell me pfal is part of Gods plan...it is written He knows who will be there and who will not long before pfal or the bible.
Once again the bible has stood pfal has not.
[This message was edited by mj412 on April 10, 2003 at 18:56.]
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Mike
Rafael,
Belittling condescension is not my attitude behind it my remarks about OLGs and risk..
I'm trying to do the opposite and show you some respect. Honest.
I know this theses sounds outlandish. I think a relatively smaller group of people were selected as being reckless enough to be the first to believe this outlandish thesis.
We OLGs used to talk about "renewed mind recklessness" among a bunch of reckless hippies. The entire decades of the 80's and 90's have sculpted a much less risk taking population when it comes to these kinds of matters. Somehow I don?t see Craig talking about ?renewed mind recklessness? in TWI-2. I could be wrong.
When we OLGs first took PFAL, the nuclear fears of the 50?s and Oct?62 had hardly worn off when we found that we were going to die in conventional fire anyway in Vietnam. This stimulated an entire sub-class of baby boomers to drop out of school, society, and life. We were trained by circumstances to take many wild risks of our own choosing, because we were subjected to some pretty nasty risks not of our own choosing. The draft then was more than a potential body snatcher, it took our very own school chums every month.
Things really changed bigtime around 1980 and risk became socially taboo. Few practiced risk confrontation like us OLGs.
I?m just saying we OLGs have, but historical accident, a higher threshold to think outside the bounds. Some of us even went to Canada.
I simply initially expect OLGs to be in a better position to see that this is a good risk and then take it.
I?ll be delighted to see if you, or any other grad who never saw our ministry flourishing and healthy, are an exception to my expectation. Honest! By believing my thesis you?ll prove it wrong for sure.
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mj412
that is just to rich.
"our ministry flourishing"
Mike the way threw you out in fact vpw himself had huge issues with you...
lolololololol o Lord take another piece of my heart , you know you got it child if it makes you feel good...
news flash Janis Joplin did drugs and died at a young age.... others joined a cult and became brain dead...
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JesseJoe
Here is a section from what Mike posted out of PFAL p.230-31. Just to clarify, it is a VPW quote.
From this ?just for accuracy? posting by Mike, I would like to point out that VP suspiciously went from the ascension, to God's giving of the truth regarding the new heaven and the new earth.
Hum. Appears to be something missing to me. After Jesus? ascension VP skipped ahead.
Mike, how do you explain that?
For any new lurkers out there confused by Mike?s references to Drivel Court, I am posting a link.
Drivel Court
Please take note of the subtopic discussing whether Mike?s threads belong in the About the Way section, the Doctrinal section or whether they deserve a section all their own.
BTW, I have never emailed Paw about another poster on this board. All the opinions I choose to share are public.
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Raf
Don't worry, Mike,
Your Secondary Thesis of Dr. (STD), which concerns who will believe your Primary Thesis of the History of the Prophetic Teacher's Hermeneutics (PTHPTH) is safe.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on April 10, 2003 at 20:56.]
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mj412
Rafael
I am not sure if it is the handsome tux , or your endless energy for a well written response , but I just have to say your making me laugh so hard...
you write as very professional patient man .
thank you .
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Raf
Thanks for catching the spirit of the original version of my post, mj. I thought I broke my promise not to get personal, so I edited it. I hope you're still amused by the edited version.
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mj412
Well I was marked by twi so I make no promises to anyone who still thinks I should have any degree of respect for any of their rules..or Mikes.
Different perspective...
In fact twi attacked me on a personal level so I can get real personal with anyone who wants to play again with me about it....
Thanks for being a nice guy.
My nice spirit left when I saw the evil of what Mike is saying here...and he is a low down nasty man in his writings as well.
If pawtucket asks me to stop I will but not untill.
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JesseJoe
From page 83 of PFAL:
VP, by his own words, condemns your thesis, Mike. If in fact, VP?s writings are God-breathed then in this paragraph, God lied. The Bible states God is not a man, that He should lie. (Numbers 23:19)
Think about it. Either God lied or all of VP?s writing are not God-breathed. Which way is it?
As VP said, "SOMEONE'S GOT TO BE A LIER!"
Either God lied, or VP lied when he said not all of his writings are God-breathed.
You say they are, VP says they aren't. Who is right?
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Zixar
I already tried this. Mike feels if he declares at least one of Wierwille's works as non-canonical, he gets off the hook on this one. That's why the Advanced Class is not in Mike's Testament.
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JesseJoe
Thanks, Zix.
So, it boils down to Mike totally disregarding VP?s God-breathed words. Not good, not good at all!
VP says to search the scriptures and then quotes John 5:39, John 17:8, John 17:17, etc. By his very quotes he is indicating which ?scripture? to search. And then Mike blows off the God-breathed ?word? and searches what he wants?
Could be a case of private interpretation.
Mike YOU know what PFAL says about private interpretation? Not good, not good at all!
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Zixar
Ever see the original "Terminator" movie? Remember this line, when Michael Biehn is being interrogated at the police station?
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