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Mike

The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW

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Verses 42-45 develop some of the differences between our current bodies and our resurrection bodies; corruption/incorruption, dishonor/glory, weakness/power, natural body/spiritual body.

At first glance, this final contrast between natural and spiritual bodies seems like it might provide some evidence for a dichotomy between natural and spiritual realms, but we need to take a closer look.

In the first place, the Greek word we usually translate as the English "nature" is "phusis". "Natural" would ordinarily come from "phusikos", from which we get the English word "physical". Physicists were originally called "natural philosophers".

The word translated "natural" in the section of the Word of God under examination is not "phusikos", but rather "psuchikos" from which we get the word "psychic". "Psuche" is usually translated "soul", so "psuchikos" might better be translated as "soulish".

So the Word of God in I Corinthians 15 is not contrasting a "natural realm" with a "spiritual realm", it is contrasting a soulish, pre-resurrection body with a spiritual, post-resurrection body.

Consider the phrase "spiritual body". If we accept the traditional definition of "spirit" as the immaterial essence of a person, and the traditional definition of "body" as the material husk that is left behind when the spirit passes over to the other side (the "spirit realm"), then we are left with an oxymoron. Either the Word of God is wrong, or the traditional definitions are wrong. I'm not prepared to propose a definitive solution, but I have a strong hunch that the classical definition of "body" was much broader in some ways than our own.

The final contrast in this part of I Corinthians 15 is the contrast between Adam, out of the earth, made of dust, and Jesus Christ, out of heaven. As he that was made of dust, so also are those made of dust. As the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly ones. As we bore the image of the one made of dust before the resurrection, so also shall we bear the image of the heavenly one after the resurrection.

Sometimes we think of "spirit" as the substance of the "spirit realm" in much the same way we think of "dust" as the substance of the "natural realm". If that were true, and "heaven" was the same thing as the "spirit realm", wouldn't it be reasonable to parallel "out of the earth, made of dust" with "out of heaven, made of spirit"? Yet the Word does *not* do this.

Hope this gives you some things to think about, Todd.

Love,

Steve

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quote:
And who said Mr. Weirwille was "trained?" When I read about the reluctant actions his desparing overseers in the church where he was briefly employed were forced to take, I see nothing that indicated Mr. Weirwille was "trainable." The man was obviously an meglomaniac, ambitious, scheming, ruthless tyrant from the get go.

But, but, but....doesn't God handing down the Holy PFAL Lithographic Plates™ to VPW qualify as sorta-kinda training?

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Zixar,

Moses, David, Saul, etc etc were trained by God too. Solomon given total wisdom.

And let's not forget Adam's perfectly "renewed" mind. Trained by God.

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Larry,

He was a ball of fire, smart fire, and when he walked with God he did great good.

When he walked with satan he did great bad. It's that way with all of the extremes of the human bell curve. He was given an overdose of brains and brawn; wherever he walked the ground shook. There are people born in the population who are like that, genetically gifted, even over gifted. If these prodigies don?t burn out in adolescence or their early twenties then they go on to do either great good or evil with their natural abilities, usually more evil except more and more subtle so as to hide it. Dr, spent an inordinate amount of time in the good side compared to other members of his physical class, and some of us benefited greatly... for a while.

For those of us who personally witnessed the former, the later is less painful.

For those of us OLGs who personally witnessed the former, for those of us who witnessed the great good Dr did when he walked with God, our first responsibility is to help our grad brothers and sisters with that damage that did occur. And that can only occur by mastering that great good in its final form: the PFAL books. We thought we had mastered the stuff and then we really belly flopped in the late 80's. Most are still recovering up to zero level, but none have become that greatness.

Most of the damage I see is what the Corps elitism did on the field. Why are they hiding from this debate? There are OLGs in the GS community who are conspicuously absent in these debates. There are OLGs who have lots to contribute to the healing and the proper healing at that, where God?s blessings through Dr?s ministry aren?t trampled.

For those of us who saw the former, Dr?s great ability to bless, it's our responsibility to heal the friendly fire damage that occurred in the war that was won by God successfully injecting His Word into thousands of bookshelves around the world.

Hey OLGs, let?s put those dust covered books back into our hands and hearts!

**************************************

Exy, I?m willing to answer you at whatever speed and volume you want. Just let me know. I have to do taxes today and there are about 5 more hours to go, and then we can resume this at your request.

**************************************

.

I saw a lot of people very blessed with PFAL for about ten solid years.

That could be streched out (for me) to about 15 years, as I moved around the country a few times.

Long ago I heard from some unknown source (hence low surety level) that the Word never lasted more than ten years in any one city, in the first century. Anyone ever hear this?

In the first century, the collapse didn?t happen at the same time in every city (ditto for twi meltdown), nor in the same way. So the cities were staggered in time, so the whole church went on for some 40 years? I saw this stuff over 20 years ago, so my memory doesn?t include where I got it from.

Part of Pawtucket?s Principle is knowing WHERE you were taught each fundamental belief. Or at least knowing where the parts came from from which you assembled the belief. And knowing from which authority the assembly was verified as consistent and sound. .....yyyaaaAAAANNNN!

Sirguessalot, now you?re making ME yawn!

Well no one ever said that PawPrin exercises area easy. They?re a lot of work! But there?s a big payoff too.

[This message was edited by Mike on April 15, 2003 at 12:54.]

[This message was edited by Mike on April 15, 2003 at 14:18.]

[This message was edited by Mike on April 15, 2003 at 15:35.]

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quote:
He was given an overdose of brains and brawn; wherever he walked the ground shook. There are people born in the population who are like that, genetically gifted, even over gifted. If these prodigies don?t burn out in adolescence or their early twenties then they go on to do either great good or evil with their natural abilities, usually more evil except more and more subtle so as to hide it. Dr, spent an inordinate amount of time in the good side compared to other members of his physical class...

Oh my God, he's not joking. You guys don't mind if I go back into retirement now, right? See you later everyone.

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quote:
He was a ball of fire, smart fire, and when he walked with God he did great good....

He was given an overdose of brains and brawn; wherever he walked the ground shook. There are people born in the population who are like that, genetically gifted, even over gifted.


What an infatuated, treacly, star-struck peaon! Mike you sound like prepubescent girls waxing euphoric and swooning at the sight of the Back Street Boys.

The only good thing Mr. Weirwille ever did, besides blessedly dying at a relatively young age of devil spirit infestations, was to refrain from getting chemical weapons.

And to think, in the early days of Waydale, I was continually reprimanded for insisting that this sort of bizarre cultish drivel was common in TWI!

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike:

So how many now have the knee jerk reaction to that by saying ?VPW trained those Corps to behave that way.? To which, I respond ?Since it?s ALL a matter of training, then who trained VPW? Why not track him or them down? Why is it that the buck stops with Dr? Is it just that he?s a more convenient target?


quote:
Originally posted by Mike:

Zixar,

Moses, David, Saul, etc etc were trained by God too. Solomon given total wisdom.

And let's not forget Adam's perfectly "renewed" mind. Trained by God.


Ah. So God's to blame for VPW's evils, not VPW. Guess God should have mastered PFAL more...

So, I guess when properly mastered, Matthew 22:37-39 should read like this:

Mike 22:37: Some guy said unto him, Thou shalt love the Vic thy Doc with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38: This is the first and great commandment.

39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love the Class as thyself.

Didn't Dr. Wierwille once say that idolatry was the most outward sign of those who are born again of the seed of the serpent?

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mike, good luck w/ your taxes

don't worry about answering me, really

genetically gifted ???

corps elitism did most of the damage ?

were you and i in the same cult ?

grace and peace,

from a "corps graduate" whose heart / life was trampled by "doctor's ministry"

ps. i don't want you to condescend / feel sorry for me whatever. i just want you to realize he was a monster

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E, you asked:

quote:
were you and i in the same cult ?

That?s a big little question we might all want to ask ourselves.

I don?t think any of us were in the same exact cult, really.

Sooner we get this one, it seems, sooner we all get along better ?round here.

Steve,

Spare me the double-barrel custom fit lecture with my name on it.

Besides, I already have plenty to think about without you giving me a spanking to motivate me.

I only posed a tiny paragraph of questions in response to your post.

Something for all of US to think about, including me.

Honestly, I do not believe in a clean-cut half-and-half universe.

But I do believe there are infinite planes of dichotomy within the universe, and none need always be parallel.

So please, go back a read a few of my earlier posts on this thread before you spank me again.

And, to spare us yet another splattered trajectory in this ten-headed food-fight of a thread, I'd love to philosophize about philosophers philozophizing about philosophers in a private topic sometime. I do not know as much about them as much as I would like to.

Goey,

Ditto on the private topic food fight peace talks. My comments on the last paragraph of that post may have been asking too much in a public forum. Sorry.

Ginger,

Thanks for calling it. Yer a champ.

Mike,

Lets say the ?ten ta fifteen year shelf-life of revelation? theory jives (and it just may, though I?d give it a much wider margin. There are trees, and there are TREES).

Will you not apply the same theory to that myriad of people and places and religious movements who have lived and died since the first century? Any non-recorded occurances?

What if: God has walked with women and men from all over this dirt ball in various degrees and forms, and the revelation actually does age like wine. At first it?s a grape off the vine, then its nourishing juice, then its medicine for what ails ya with moderation and a prescribed dose, then eventually, everyone get addicted, then tanked and goes streaking together into the wee hours of the morning til you pass out and the cops pick you up?

Honestly, on one level, I?d say yer giving VP and PFAL the importance of Noah.

Like VP was really the humblest dude to come along for 2k years.

God?s numero uno humble guy for 2k years of the planet earth?s history.

Question: what are the odds the God may be walking among some new spiritual ground-shaker right now? Or even sometime within the next century or two?

No? Just VPW? I hope not.

The rest of yooz,

DUCK!

icon_wink.gif;)-->

tng

crap. I try to post one-liners to save us all from me words, and I end up with 500 words.

I need a smoke.

[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 15, 2003 at 14:19.]

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quote:
Moses, David, Saul, etc etc were trained by God too. Solomon given total wisdom.

And let's not forget Adam's perfectly "renewed" mind. Trained by God.


Training implies, study, practice and and usually a teacher. "Trained by God" you say? Well it depends upon what is meant by training.

God put wisdom in Solomon's heart. There is no biblical record of any direct training that I can tell. The scriptures certainly say nothing about "total wisdom". If he had "total wisdom" I doubt he would have gone after idols and false gods. There seems to be no record of David having been "trained" by God. My best guess is that as a good Jewish boy he was trained by his parents via the scriptures.

Where is there any record that Saul received any "training" directly from God?

These men no doubt received revelation from time to time, but "training" from God? What does that mean? Seem rather esoterical and contrived. It proves nothing in regards to VPW.

Adam had a perfectly renewed mind? - Says Who? Why should I need to remember that? This is just parroting of PFAL - an unprovable teaching of VP's that had no real substance or any particular signifigance for that matter.

The only point I see that is trying to be made here is that VPW somehow belongs in the same class as David, Solomon and Saul. I reject that premise for several reasons that have already been discussed by others here. VPW was a charleton and an abuser. He also happened to teach the Bible, sometimes pretty well.

quote:
He was given an overdose of brains and brawn; wherever he walked the ground shook. There are people born in the population who are like that, genetically gifted, even over gifted. If these prodigies don?t burn out in adolescence or their early twenties then they go on to do either great good or evil with their natural abilities, usually more evil except more and more subtle so as to hide it. Dr, spent an inordinate amount of time in the good side compared to other members of his physical class...
Yea, he had so much "brains" that as a PHD he could not even pronouce the word "probleN" correctly. Why he did not even have the "brains" to cover up his blatant plaigerism. And where is the brawn? Oh that's right he invented the "hook shot." What a crock!

quote:
For those of us OLGs who personally witnessed the former, for those of us who witnessed the great good Dr did when he walked with God, our first responsibility is to help our grad brothers and sisters with that damage that did occur. And that can only occur by mastering that great good in its final form: the PFAL books.

I witnessed VPW teach the Bible. He cooked me a hamburger once. Good for him. This is hardly earth shattering. I know of few "OLGS" that "witnessed the former". I did not.

I do agree that we should help our brothers and sisters with the damage that was done, but not by mastering PFAL. We can help them rather by telling the truth about VPW, about how he plaigerized the works of others, about how he used his position of authority to sexually abuse women, about how many secummed to his charms and deception because we put too much emphasis and trust in the man rather than upon God and Christ. We can encourage folks to get help from other sources where we are not qualified. That is what we can do. Mastering PFAL will do nothing to heal the many wounds that VPW intentionally inflicted upon folks to fulfill his own lusts.

PFAL while having some good stuff in it was used by VPW as a tool to fulfill his own perverted lusts and to feed his overblown ego.

Rafael, I am with you. This is so entirely abusurd that I am not even going to address this baloney anymore.

Goey

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An OVERDOSE of brains and brawn.

The earth shook when he walked.

He spent an INORDINATE amount of time on the "good side."

And they wonder why I use the word idolatry.

[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on April 15, 2003 at 20:13.]

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quote:
He was given an overdose of brains and brawn; wherever he walked the ground shook. There are people born in the population who are like that, genetically gifted, even over gifted.

I think Mike just jumped the shark for good...

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I an in complete agree with Mike's conclusion, that is: - There are people who are given an overdose of brains and brawn, etc., etc.

Just consider these few personalities for example: Hitler, Sadaam H. Yep, even The Beatles had their fill of glassy-eyed followers back in the '60s. "Beatlemania" it was called. I would say it took a lot of brains, marketing genius, etc. to roll out all those things. But how many people today still faint whenever Mr. Paul McCartney gets up on stage? Not many, if any at all.

Are there people still around who are stuck in the '60's? Maybe, but there may only be a few around, if any at all. I believe Mike is just one of those people who happened to get stuck back in the "PFAL popularity" of the '70s. Really people, he is just someone who is crying out to get out and get "unstuck".

quote:
We can help them rather by telling the truth about VPW, about how he plaigerized the works of others, about how he used his position of authority to sexually abuse women, about how many secummed to his charms and deception because we put too much emphasis and trust in the man rather than upon God and Christ.

Some people probably did trust "the man VPW" more than God and Christ. I would say it probably happened during the Beatlemania phase of TWi/PFAL. But I DON'T blame VPW for that. That certainly wasn't VPW's fault. I vividly recall VPW saying: DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT - READ IT FOR YOURSELF! So what do you mean by "we"? You better not be including me in the "wee".

Just when will people grow up and take the responsibility of living their own lives into their own hands? By this I mean, one gets over that Beatlemania, and they no longer are: "TAKING SOMEONES WORD FOR IT".

I don't know which is worse. Someone still stuck blaming VPW for all the negative things that happened because they believed everything he said, or someone still stuck in the "good-ol'-70's-PFAL-Beatlemania" from TWI. Talking about the evils VPW committed hasn't helped Mike, nor has it detered him any from his mission (whatever that is) so why would one conclude it could help anybody else? It's just the opposite side of the same old "PFAL/TWI-Beatlemania" coin. I ain't that naive. (Just the extremists here at work again, Raf.)

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quote:
These freaks deserve being psycho-polemically chained to you.

In other words: magnetic but mutually abusive relationships expressed largely by banter, insults, cheap shots, charlie-horses, wedgies, and cruel "your mamma jokes."

Sounds like the beginning of lifelong friendships to me. I wonder if any of us boneheads even realize it?

(oops, did I just say that outloud?)

icon_redface.gif:o-->

(I forgot, this is a temple).

shhhhhhh

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Goodness, some people. I apologize for having a sense of humor.

I've always advocated avoiding the extremist positions. I've always advocated NOT throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But go ahead and insult us all for opposing Mike's thesis. And insult us all for holding him to some level of honesty in his discussions/defense of his position. Yeah, we're freaks for standing up for our beliefs. Mike, oh, he's only to be defended. Poor poor Mike. But the rest of us are soooooo mean and cruel and heartless and freakish for actually engaging him in conversation.

Go to.

And I don't mean "come, now."

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Not sure who "some people" are?

?but I'll bite, since it was right after my post.

Raf, Mike is quite a freak too.

And I never even knew you had a sense of humor (charlie horse).

C'mon. Count the hours you've invested in your "conversations" with Master Mike.

Do you really spend that much time conversing with someone you loathe, pity, hate, feel threatened by, or perceive as a threat to those who need protection from him?

Sounds like the beginnings of a typical accidental but possibly wonderful friendship to me.

Haven't ya ever had an annoying friend who hangs with your crowd that you just wanted to go away? But he won't, and you get used to him? He says and does the oddest things. And he even gets used to being the butt of everyone's jokes. That's his job. In fact, you'd probably miss this guy if he was gone?

Then you see him twenty years later and the memories are more fond than ever?

Heck, I doubt most friends can even hang in through all the ....ing contests that go on here.

You guys fight more like sisters!

Talk about a disfunctional families?!

(Ya gotta love em anyway, right?)

icon_wink.gif;)-->

btw - which is it? Expressing a sense of humor, standing up for your beliefs, opposing a thesis, holding him to some level of honesty, or engaging Mike in conversation?

Oh, I forgot, he is a heretic who promotes idolatry.

And what we all post is oh so important.

The devil is out there, ya know.

And we must defend poor helpless new ex-culties from Mike's hypnotic powers.

icon_rolleyes.gif:rolleyes:--> (OK, I'll concede on the hypnotic part)

Tell me, who here is "only defending" Mike?

Just because someone is not trying to pin him to a wall for his crimes does not automatically make them his defender.

I actually think heez a harmless goon with a big heart for people.

And though I don?t buy his lines, and I think he's over-the-top, I'd still call him a friend.

So, what?

You and I have never really got along, but I might still try to call you a friend, but now I'm afraid this would insult you too.

Look. Now I am not defending Mike, but defending myself for having been accused of trying to dishonor you AND all those you consider are with you because I am not rallying with you against Mike.

So, why are you so insulted?

Is it about honor?

Etiquette?

Some broken rules of engagement?

Wanna go outside and duel over it?

Water pistols?

icon_biggrin.gif:D-->

tng

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"Mike, oh, he's only to be defended. Poor poor Mike. But the rest of us are soooooo mean and cruel and heartless and freakish for actually engaging him in conversation."

You do build your little strawmen.

I was not, of course, commenting about people being mean to Mike. I was being cynically (and real-damned) nasty.

*****

I think the primary danger Mike wields is not one of getting people to join him in ga-ga-for-Wierwille land. It is more subtle. It lies in what Mike quite effectively elicits in his opponents by flaunting his grotesque presuppositions about Wierwille: A smug and exaggerated sense of how far they have traveled from the TWI premise about Wierwille and from Wierwille's false teachings.

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Funny thing too...is that it may be that Mike's smug and exaggerated sense of how far they have traveled from the TWI premise about Wierwille and from Wierwille's false teachings that quite effectively elicits this same behaviour in his opponents.

wierd.

Cynic, you are so negative.

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Folks are so nice.

Sirguess: the spirit of your post was received as intended. No hard feelings.

quote:
btw - which is it? Expressing a sense of humor, standing up for your beliefs, opposing a thesis, holding him to some level of honesty, or engaging Mike in conversation?

Different posts have exhibited one or all of the above qualities.

Cynic: Oh, I apologize. I didn't realize you were trying to be nasty. Here I thought you were trying to be nasty. I do sometimes get confused you know. Sorry about the mix-up.

You know, people, one doesn't have to feel THREATENED by an opposing point of view in order to express opposition to it.

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