Speaking in tongues as a 5 senses "proof"? Subjectively, from the inside, I can see it, assuming that one could distinguish among inspiration from God and the several possible counterfeits.
Objectively, from the outside, tongues is not proof of anything. How could you know if what someone else was speaking was the biblical phenomenon of speaking in tongues, a devilish counterfeit, senseless babbling or someone actually speaking a foreign language? You could eliminate a few of the possibilities if you knew the person really well, but how could you distinguish between a tongue of angels and random sounds?
My understanding of this is that speaking in tongues cannot be counterfeited because it is more than just a language spoken that the individual didn't learn...It's just a language being forced through the mouth by devil spirits. If THAT'S as deep as your definition of speaking in tongues, then, sure, THAT can be counterfeited. But THAT is not speaking in tongues.
This may be nit picking Tom, but I would define speaking in tongues more broadly, including any speaking of a real or apparent language that the speaker doesn't know. This would encompass non-Christian tongues as well as Christian.
I would go further and define tongues within the Christian biblical context as having the atrributes and benefits that you mention.
I guess the reason I'm picking the nits here is that speaking in tongues does exist outside Christianity; narrowing the definition to exclude anything non-Christian does not eliminate the real existance of the phenomena outside of "church".
Can we safely assume that the notion of "tongues" held the same meaning for the writer of
1 Corinthians as was held by the writer of Acts? Might we have an example of
xenoglossia in Acts, glossalalia in Corinthians?
If you consider the bible's author to be God, then yes, the notion of tongues held the same meaning. That which we can't assume is that the practice of tongues in the bible is the same practice that is labeled glossalalia today.
If you consider the bible's author to be God, then yes, the notion of tongues held the same meaning. That which we can't assume is that the practice of tongues in the bible is the same practice that is labeled glossalalia today.
Jerry
I for one don't consider the bible to be a monolithic expression of the will of a god, but as Dan suggested, the expression of various movements within early Christianity
Well, finally - I'm back. I have to apologize to you T-bone, for taking so long to get back to you - and to whomever else was waiting. I'm not usually like this. Anyway, forget the giving of reasons - sorry.
From what you're saying - someone seeking this speaking in tongues experience has a lot of things to consider/check out/determine: 1. It could be from God. 2. It could be from the devil. 3. It could be something their mind made up…In my opinion this represents a very subjective and confusing process. What criteria would be used to determine these things?…Just some thoughts here about the book of Acts days: Was there that much of an issue of speaking in tongues being counterfeit? Was speaking in tongues a key "selling point" of Christianity? Does it appear to be a core element of their preaching?
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "From what you're [i'm] saying." But that's okay; I'd rather talk about what I believe concerning what is real rather than what I've said; please excuse me if I've spoken wrongly. Actually, for me, the idea that speaking in tongues (the Christian thing) cannot be counterfeited means that "someone seeking this speaking in tongues experience" doesn't have "a lot of things to consider/check out/determine." It means that one doesn't have to worry that they will receive a counterfeit because God will no more give a counterfeit to one asking for the genuine than a father would give a stone to one of his offspring asking for bread, or a serpent instead of a fish, or a scorpion instead of an egg. That's three times complete - it's just not going to happen.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
So, I don't think there was any issue of speaking in tongues being counterfeit back in the day.
Was it a key selling point? A key element of marketing, as we know it, is guile; truth, by definition, has no guile. It just is - big or little, like it or not.
Does it appear to be a core element of their preaching? Wow! That's a loaded question! Core, how? Core, as in you're going to hell if you don't do it? Core as in you're not a Christian if you don't do it? I don't belive that.
Core, as in you can't have any spiritual interaction from your heavenly Father unless you do it? I don't believe that either.
Core, as in speaking in tongues is spiritual intercession from God to you exploding truths about what it means to be a child of God? Yes, that I believe.
As a Christian and firm believer in the Bible being God's Word – I still have to admit I believe the assurance promised to believers is a very personal – subjective thing. I don't think it's a "Signs, Miracles and Wonders-on-demand" feature that God offers to believers who really want to be in the know.
I agree completely.
I think VPW had a bad habit of deciding to believe something beforehand - then twisting Scripture to support it.
Yeah, among a lot of other bad habits - again, I'm sorry I mentioned his name in this place.
In TWI I've heard the following two verses used to prove the validity of TWI's speaking in tongues experience: In John 7:17 Jesus said, "…If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." And in I John 3:24 "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."
Two people can read both those verses and come away with two different meanings. It comes down to personal viewpoint. Someone else may say the verses can be used to validate the speaking in tongues experience. From my viewpoint [and experience] I gather the verses are talking about something – perhaps almost indescribable – that happens to me at a very deep and personal level of my consciousness as I obey Scripture – and according to those verses God is somehow involved in the experience. This is something that is subjective – it can't be proved or argued about in a debate. But it is a very real and solid aspect of my belief system – and in my opinion something based on a process that honors God and energizes this Christian thing called "faith."
Yes, that is deep. On your part. It could be sloppy methodolgy on VP's part, or it could be just as deep and honest. Not everything can be proven from scripture - or Jesus wouldn't have said the above.
As DrtyDzn said, "VP taught that SIT could not be counterfeited, that's why it was the proof in the senses realm of the internal reality of being born again." What Scripture references did VPW use to back this up?
As DrtyDzn said, "VP taught that SIT could not be counterfeited, that's why it was the proof in the senses realm of the internal reality of being born again." What Scripture references did VPW use to back this up?
Well, I don't know the exhaustive answer to this, but I do know that he did use the section that I quoted above from Luke 11:11-13. I think the idea that tongues cannot be counterfeited can be legitimately inferred from these verses. I don't think it is reasonable to presume that when the Word assures the seeker how much more God won't give the seeker a counterfeit than an earthy father, it is just because God is nice. It is God we are talking about. Apparently, the question remains, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the holy spirit to them that ask instead of a counterfeit? I believe the how much more is in the difference between evil people & God. God so much more will not give you a counterfeit that it can't even be done. God has designed reality that way. IT CAN'T BE DONE. God said so & made it to be so.
I think this has valuable things to say about this discussion.
Adrift at Sea
God has enlisted us in his navy and placed us on his ship. The boat has one purpose-to carry us safely to the other shore.
This is no cruise ship; it is a battleship. We aren't called to a life of leisure, we are called to a life of service. Each of us has a different task. Some, concerned with those who are drowning, are snatching people from the water. Others are occupied with the enemy, so they man the cannons of prayer and worship. Still others devote themselves to the crew, feeding and training the crew members.
Though different, we are the same. Each can tell of a personal encounter with the captain, for each has received a personal call. He found us among the shanties of the seaport and invited us to follow him. Our faith was born at the sight of his fondness, and so we went.
We each followed him across the gangplank of his grace onto the same boat. There is one captain and one destination. Though the battle is fierce, the boat is safe, for our captain is God. The ship will not sink. For that, there is no concern.
There is concern, however, regarding the disharmony of the crew. When we first boarded we assumed the crew was made up of others like us. But as we've wandered these decks, we've encountered curious converts with curious appearances. Some wear uniforms we've never seen, sporting styles we've never witnessed. "Why do you look the way you do?" we ask them.
"Funny, they reply. we were about to ask the same of you."
The variety of dress is not nearly as disturbing as the plethora of opinions. There is a group, for example, who clusters every morning for serious study. They promote rigid discipline and somber expressions. Serving the captain is serious business,
they explain. It's no coincidence that they tend to congregate around the stern.
There is another regiment deeply devoted to prayer. Not only do they believe in prayer, they believe in prayer by kneeling. For that reason you always know where to locate them, they are at the bow of the ship.
And then there are a few who staunchly believe real wine should be used in the Lord's Supper. You'll find them on the port side.
Still another group has positioned themselves near the engine. They spend hours examining the nuts and bolts of the boat. They've been known to go below deck and not come up for days. They occasionally are criticized by those who linger on the top deck, feeling the wind in their hair and the sun on their face. It's not what you learn, those topside argue. It's what you feel that matters. And, oh, how we tend to cluster.
Some think once you're on the boat, you can't get off. Others say you'd be foolish to go overboard, but the choice is yours.
Some believe you volunteer for service, others believe you were destined for the service before the ship was even built.
Some predict a storm of great tribulation will strike before we dock, others say it won't his until we are safely ashore.
There are those who speak to the captain in a personal language. There are those who think such languages are extinct.
There are those who think the officers should wear robes, there are those who think there should be no officers at all, and there are those who think we are all officers and should all wear robes.
And oh, how we tend to cluster.
And then there is the issue of the weekly meeting at which the captain is thanked and his words are read. All agree on its importance, but few agree on its nature. Some want it loud, others quiet. Some want ritual, others spontaneity. Some want to celebrate so they can meditate, others meditate so they can celebrate. Some want a meeting for those who've gone overboard. Others want to reach those overboard but without going over board and neglecting those on board.
And, oh, how we tend to cluster.
The consequence is a rocky boat. There is trouble on deck. Fights have broken out. Sailors have refused to speak to each other. There have even been times when one group refused to acknowledge the presence of others on the ship. Most tragically, some adrift at sea have chosen not to board the boat because of the quarreling of the sailors.
I believe the how much more is in the difference between evil people & God. God so much more will not give you a counterfeit that it can't even be done. God has designed reality that way. IT CAN'T BE DONE. God said so & made it to be so.
Yet in post 268 Tom wrote:
THAT, devils can't counterfeit, when it comes to speaking in tongues. The devil's version of "speaking in tongues" is NOT really speaking in tongues at all. There is no intercession going on, no spiritual energizing of spiritual realities, no building of potential from the devil spirit world.
It's just a language being forced through the mouth by devil spirits. If THAT'S as deep as your definition of speaking in tongues, then, sure, THAT can be counterfeited. But THAT is not speaking in tongues.
I've seen Christians speak in tongues who weren't aware that was what they were doing - it really is a simple affair technically (on the part of humans - hell, the spirit is giving the utterence; what could be easier?). And the holy spirit is not the harsh qualifier he is made out to be). But I've never seen someone who is not a Christian speak in tongues; although, I have seen the hokey "counterfeit." Perhaps it should be called a counterfeit counterfeit to differentiate it from real, but devilish revelations, healings, etc
Dr Samarin could tell no difference in the glossalalia he observed in Christians and non-christians. Perhaps the hokey "counterfiet" you saw was not the same as what he observed.
Dr. made a big point that all he wanted was "to see the baby, I don't care how it got here." Meaning he wanted to hear them speak in tongues as proof that they were born again. I know there was more than one Saturday Night Live skit where the comics seemed to speak in tongues more fluently than some in my twig. I was amazed that they would all have been born again at some point in their lives. Now if glossalalia was just an innate ability of the human mind........
Assuming that speaking in tongues as the bible describes is still possible in this day and time...
Assuming that the verses about a father not giving his child serpents and scorpions applies to speaking in tongues...
Assuming that people cannot just randomly string sounds together that kind of sound like a language...
Sure, I'll buy that speaking in tongues cannot be counterfeited to the individual; that is anyone who desires to speak in tongues according to the biblical records will be able to genuinely speak in tongues; whether God has to intervene to protect that Christian from devilish influence or whatever. I see the point and agree with it from a biblical perspective. I just can't see God making a phenomena like speaking in tongues available to folks and then leaving the door open for the devil to posess their vocal cords.
However, from the non-Christian perspective, there's nothing special about hearing those sounds being made, nothing that makes us say "Okay, I'm done worshipping other gods, Jesus be real...gimme a bible!
Dr Samarin could tell no difference in the glossalalia he observed in Christians and non-christians. Perhaps the hokey "counterfiet" you saw was not the same as what he observed.
Assuming that speaking in tongues as the bible describes is still possible in this day and time...
Assuming that the verses about a father not giving his child serpents and scorpions applies to speaking in tongues...
Assuming that people cannot just randomly string sounds together that kind of sound like a language...
Sure, I'll buy that speaking in tongues cannot be counterfeited to the individual; that is anyone who desires to speak in tongues according to the biblical records will be able to genuinely speak in tongues; whether God has to intervene to protect that Christian from devilish influence or whatever. I see the point and agree with it from a biblical perspective. I just can't see God making a phenomena like speaking in tongues available to folks and then leaving the door open for the devil to posess their vocal cords.
However, from the non-Christian perspective, there's nothing special about hearing those sounds being made, nothing that makes us say "Okay, I'm done worshipping other gods, Jesus be real...gimme a bible!
lol...lol...Oakspear....
I believe there is speaking in tongues of angels and men today. I also believe that it was done by Jesus. Cause who was he speaking to in the wilderness? Certainly the carnal mind could not deal with this spiritual situation in which the spirit led him. I believe he was speaking by the spirit within. It can be called speaking in tongues or speaking by the spirit of God.
I also believe it takes angels to understand angels speaking.
I do believe these verses and their respective contexts reflect this speaking in tongues.
KJV: Mt 13:13
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
KJV: Mt 13:14
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
KJV: Mt 13:15
15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
KJV: Mk 4:12
12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
KJV: Mk 6:2
2And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
KJV: Lk 8:10
10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Sure, I'll buy that speaking in tongues cannot be counterfeited to the individual; that is anyone who desires to speak in tongues according to the biblical records will be able to genuinely speak in tongues; whether God has to intervene to protect that Christian from devilish influence or whatever. I see the point and agree with it from a biblical perspective.
Cool, that's major & basically what I was saying.
I just can't see God making a phenomena like speaking in tongues available to folks and then leaving the door open for the devil to posess their vocal cords.
Right, what kind of assurance would that be? I think the phenomena of speaking in tongues & devils possessing people's vocal cords are realities that are so far apart from one another that they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same denotation, and aren't - except by people who don't make the distinction. All I can say to that is "whatever."
A couple was sitting on a love seat together, & the guy said to the girl ( no offense to girls), "You know the problem we are having communicating? You're a generalist, & I'm a specificist." She said, "Whatever." He said, "Exactly!"
God doesn't leave doors to devil possession open; people do. People who genuinely seek, get the genuine article. Hence the absoluteness of the assurance.
However, from the non-Christian perspective, there's nothing special about hearing those sounds being made, nothing that makes us say "Okay, I'm done worshipping other gods, Jesus be real...gimme a bible!
I thought so, thought I'd restae it in different words to make sure
Dancing:
I don't understand why you believe that the verses that you quote indicate Jesus speaking in tongues. As far as I can tell he is never overtly said to have done this. Are you saying that where it says in those verses that folks didn't understand, were dull of hearing etc, it was becasue Jesus was speaking in tongues?
Are you using a definition of speaking in tongues that is different than "speaking a tongue that is unknown to the speaker"?
Are you using a definition of speaking in tongues that is different than "speaking a tongue that is unknown to the speaker"?
Yes though I don't think my definition would make to Websters or Wikipedia.
And not quite sure how to put it anyway.
Jesus said they heard but didn't understand, saw but didn't see.
These parables and even other things he said were not understood.
Though this does not make not understanding what someone says speaking in tongues.
For example, here in Corinthians the one speaking in toungues is edified.
And therefore understands what he is speaking.
Bear with me now, I'm not done yet..
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church-yeah
But here what is this really saying
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Could it be that Paul would understand but no fruit because noone else does?
His understanding is unfruitful. Fruit, as in fruitful to others and for others.
Is this helping? I don't know if I can say it quite right.
Some are better at speaking in tongues then others, as that is stated in 1 Cor 12 and so on.
Somethings just flow for some better then others,
but as it says I think quite clearly that everyone is equally iomportant no matter what they are good at concerning spiritual matters as it starts out in 12:1. Also I think there is a lot in these 3 chapters that we have not even come close to understanding.
You see I also believe the Bible is in tongues. And there is understanding of parts of it by many and as we listen grow and learn more and more of these scriptures will open up it's treasures as the Spirit opens the ears and eyes.
'Nothing new under the sun" Limited. Yet here we are talking about speaking with new tongues, hearing with new ears and seeing with new eyes. So we must be speaking of things beyond what is under the sun, a newness yet to be discovered. Unlimited.
The word 'new' is especially interesting in Psalms and Isaiah and Jermiah and well quite a few places. There are 150 uses of the word in the kjv.
You and I seem to have extremely different ways of processing information, so I have to work a little harder to "get" what you're saying sometimes. I'll get back to this tomorrow night
Addressing the issue of "speaking in tongues = twi mindspeak":
A reminder: vpw plagiarized from BG Leonard, JD Stiles, EW Bullinger and many others. Although he may have mentioned other people in acknowledgement of having studied with them, it was always with a supercilious air of "if he only knew what I know. . ." to the end that twi people were stamped with a predudice against anything non-twi as unimportant because, certainly, all important things they had to say had been included in the illustrious works of vpw.
I did a search at Christian Book Distributors website for "tongues" and received 267 different items.
Note: for anyone who wants to buy vpw books: A search of amazon.com interestingly revealed many.
Speaking in tongues did not begin or end with TWI. A major revelation into the corporate Christian consciousness was given by the Azuza Street mission in California, and neither the original testimonies nor the 100th anniversary events this year mention vpw at all (that I have seen). I wasn't there for either event.
Currently almost if not all of the non-denominational evangelistic groups (degradingly insulted by vpw categorically because they did not live up to his high standards) have been steadily working with Holy Spirit through the years and developing the Biblical doctrines and explanations of speaking in tongues.
A recent book that started me thinking along this line was "The Hidden Power of Speaking in Tongues" by Mahesh Chavda. This man, Mahesh Chavda came into holy spirit arena with a ministry of prayer and fasting, and he and his wife coordinate at the minimum a Friday nite all nite prayer and fasting service, which is broadcast over the internet. From his introduction, " 'I thank God I Speak in tongues more than you all.' Spoken by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:18. In Mahesh Chavda's new book The Hidden Power of Speaking in Tongues, we are once again reminded and carefully taught about the incredible possibilities available in speaking in tongues. This spiritual gift, much maligned and controversial in our day, was a vibrant and necessary part of the worship and intercession of the early Church. It is an experience that hungry believers long to rediscover here in the twenty-first-century Church, as millions search for a more meaningful understanding and relationship with their Lord.
As he softly removes the mystique and mystery overshadowing this glorious gift, Chavda challenges the Body of Christ to pursue afresh the secret dynamic of speaking in tongues."
I think this has valuable things to say about this discussion.
Adrift at Sea
God has enlisted us in his navy and placed us on his ship. The boat has one purpose-to carry us safely to the other shore...
I like that entire excerpt from Max, Tom. That's very applicable for our discussion...I was thinking more of a line from a Grateful Dead's tune "...what a long strange trip it's been." ....But seriously I did like that excerpt - and your response to me. Thanks
Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged.
Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged.
Get back Jojo.
:B)
Again, seriously - but not too seriously - you're very welcome. It's been great "talking" with you.
Holy cow !!!!! Tom, I freaked when you used that song! I thought it was a subliminal message telling me to return to TWI. Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!! .........sorry I'm in a joking mood tonight....And seriously - it has been great yakking with you on this thread.
Holy cow !!!!! Tom, I freaked when you used that song! I thought it was a subliminal message telling me to return to TWI. Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!! .........sorry I'm in a joking mood tonight....And seriously - it has been great yakking with you on this thread.
Your assignment is to memorize Kit's post before you go to sleep tonight - 11:00 PM for Corps, 12:00 for WOWs, everyone else doesn't count, but you can emulate either of the above standards if you hope for greatness.
Dang, you never belonged THERE - the legalism of those deadlines, but you do belong in the substance of Kit's post - in a place in communication with God in which TWI isn't mentioned or thought about.
In that light, back to the song - You may think you are a loner, but you belong where Loretta waits with high heal shoes & low cut sweater.
If you can dig the spiritual analogy - "Go home, boy."
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
45
26
26
69
Popular Days
Jun 26
28
Jul 3
20
Jun 27
18
Aug 12
17
Top Posters In This Topic
Tom 45 posts
Oakspear 26 posts
T-Bone 26 posts
dancing 69 posts
Popular Days
Jun 26 2006
28 posts
Jul 3 2006
20 posts
Jun 27 2006
18 posts
Aug 12 2006
17 posts
Oakspear
Speaking in tongues as a 5 senses "proof"? Subjectively, from the inside, I can see it, assuming that one could distinguish among inspiration from God and the several possible counterfeits.
Objectively, from the outside, tongues is not proof of anything. How could you know if what someone else was speaking was the biblical phenomenon of speaking in tongues, a devilish counterfeit, senseless babbling or someone actually speaking a foreign language? You could eliminate a few of the possibilities if you knew the person really well, but how could you distinguish between a tongue of angels and random sounds?
This may be nit picking Tom, but I would define speaking in tongues more broadly, including any speaking of a real or apparent language that the speaker doesn't know. This would encompass non-Christian tongues as well as Christian.I would go further and define tongues within the Christian biblical context as having the atrributes and benefits that you mention.
I guess the reason I'm picking the nits here is that speaking in tongues does exist outside Christianity; narrowing the definition to exclude anything non-Christian does not eliminate the real existance of the phenomena outside of "church".
Edited by OakspearLink to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Can we safely assume that the notion of "tongues" held the same meaning for the writer of
1 Corinthians as was held by the writer of Acts? Might we have an example of
xenoglossia in Acts, glossalalia in Corinthians?
The various early Christian movements may have differed no less with one another in their ideas of "tongues" as we do today.
A fascinating discussion guys. Thanks.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrtyDzn
If you consider the bible's author to be God, then yes, the notion of tongues held the same meaning. That which we can't assume is that the practice of tongues in the bible is the same practice that is labeled glossalalia today.
Jerry
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Well, finally - I'm back. I have to apologize to you T-bone, for taking so long to get back to you - and to whomever else was waiting. I'm not usually like this. Anyway, forget the giving of reasons - sorry.
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "From what you're [i'm] saying." But that's okay; I'd rather talk about what I believe concerning what is real rather than what I've said; please excuse me if I've spoken wrongly. Actually, for me, the idea that speaking in tongues (the Christian thing) cannot be counterfeited means that "someone seeking this speaking in tongues experience" doesn't have "a lot of things to consider/check out/determine." It means that one doesn't have to worry that they will receive a counterfeit because God will no more give a counterfeit to one asking for the genuine than a father would give a stone to one of his offspring asking for bread, or a serpent instead of a fish, or a scorpion instead of an egg. That's three times complete - it's just not going to happen.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
So, I don't think there was any issue of speaking in tongues being counterfeit back in the day.
Was it a key selling point? A key element of marketing, as we know it, is guile; truth, by definition, has no guile. It just is - big or little, like it or not.
Does it appear to be a core element of their preaching? Wow! That's a loaded question! Core, how? Core, as in you're going to hell if you don't do it? Core as in you're not a Christian if you don't do it? I don't belive that.
Core, as in you can't have any spiritual interaction from your heavenly Father unless you do it? I don't believe that either.
Core, as in speaking in tongues is spiritual intercession from God to you exploding truths about what it means to be a child of God? Yes, that I believe.
I agree completely.
Yeah, among a lot of other bad habits - again, I'm sorry I mentioned his name in this place.
In TWI I've heard the following two verses used to prove the validity of TWI's speaking in tongues experience: In John 7:17 Jesus said, "…If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." And in I John 3:24 "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."
Yes, that is deep. On your part. It could be sloppy methodolgy on VP's part, or it could be just as deep and honest. Not everything can be proven from scripture - or Jesus wouldn't have said the above.
As DrtyDzn said, "VP taught that SIT could not be counterfeited, that's why it was the proof in the senses realm of the internal reality of being born again." What Scripture references did VPW use to back this up?
Well, I don't know the exhaustive answer to this, but I do know that he did use the section that I quoted above from Luke 11:11-13. I think the idea that tongues cannot be counterfeited can be legitimately inferred from these verses. I don't think it is reasonable to presume that when the Word assures the seeker how much more God won't give the seeker a counterfeit than an earthy father, it is just because God is nice. It is God we are talking about. Apparently, the question remains, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the holy spirit to them that ask instead of a counterfeit? I believe the how much more is in the difference between evil people & God. God so much more will not give you a counterfeit that it can't even be done. God has designed reality that way. IT CAN'T BE DONE. God said so & made it to be so.
That much is clear to me.
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
I think this has valuable things to say about this discussion.
Adrift at Sea
God has enlisted us in his navy and placed us on his ship. The boat has one purpose-to carry us safely to the other shore.
This is no cruise ship; it is a battleship. We aren't called to a life of leisure, we are called to a life of service. Each of us has a different task. Some, concerned with those who are drowning, are snatching people from the water. Others are occupied with the enemy, so they man the cannons of prayer and worship. Still others devote themselves to the crew, feeding and training the crew members.
Though different, we are the same. Each can tell of a personal encounter with the captain, for each has received a personal call. He found us among the shanties of the seaport and invited us to follow him. Our faith was born at the sight of his fondness, and so we went.
We each followed him across the gangplank of his grace onto the same boat. There is one captain and one destination. Though the battle is fierce, the boat is safe, for our captain is God. The ship will not sink. For that, there is no concern.
There is concern, however, regarding the disharmony of the crew. When we first boarded we assumed the crew was made up of others like us. But as we've wandered these decks, we've encountered curious converts with curious appearances. Some wear uniforms we've never seen, sporting styles we've never witnessed. "Why do you look the way you do?" we ask them.
"Funny, they reply. we were about to ask the same of you."
The variety of dress is not nearly as disturbing as the plethora of opinions. There is a group, for example, who clusters every morning for serious study. They promote rigid discipline and somber expressions. Serving the captain is serious business,
they explain. It's no coincidence that they tend to congregate around the stern.
There is another regiment deeply devoted to prayer. Not only do they believe in prayer, they believe in prayer by kneeling. For that reason you always know where to locate them, they are at the bow of the ship.
And then there are a few who staunchly believe real wine should be used in the Lord's Supper. You'll find them on the port side.
Still another group has positioned themselves near the engine. They spend hours examining the nuts and bolts of the boat. They've been known to go below deck and not come up for days. They occasionally are criticized by those who linger on the top deck, feeling the wind in their hair and the sun on their face. It's not what you learn, those topside argue. It's what you feel that matters. And, oh, how we tend to cluster.
Some think once you're on the boat, you can't get off. Others say you'd be foolish to go overboard, but the choice is yours.
Some believe you volunteer for service, others believe you were destined for the service before the ship was even built.
Some predict a storm of great tribulation will strike before we dock, others say it won't his until we are safely ashore.
There are those who speak to the captain in a personal language. There are those who think such languages are extinct.
There are those who think the officers should wear robes, there are those who think there should be no officers at all, and there are those who think we are all officers and should all wear robes.
And oh, how we tend to cluster.
And then there is the issue of the weekly meeting at which the captain is thanked and his words are read. All agree on its importance, but few agree on its nature. Some want it loud, others quiet. Some want ritual, others spontaneity. Some want to celebrate so they can meditate, others meditate so they can celebrate. Some want a meeting for those who've gone overboard. Others want to reach those overboard but without going over board and neglecting those on board.
And, oh, how we tend to cluster.
The consequence is a rocky boat. There is trouble on deck. Fights have broken out. Sailors have refused to speak to each other. There have even been times when one group refused to acknowledge the presence of others on the ship. Most tragically, some adrift at sea have chosen not to board the boat because of the quarreling of the sailors.
SOURCE: Max Lucado ”In the Grip of Grace"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrtyDzn
Dr Samarin could tell no difference in the glossalalia he observed in Christians and non-christians. Perhaps the hokey "counterfiet" you saw was not the same as what he observed.
Dr. made a big point that all he wanted was "to see the baby, I don't care how it got here." Meaning he wanted to hear them speak in tongues as proof that they were born again. I know there was more than one Saturday Night Live skit where the comics seemed to speak in tongues more fluently than some in my twig. I was amazed that they would all have been born again at some point in their lives. Now if glossalalia was just an innate ability of the human mind........
Jerry
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Assuming that speaking in tongues as the bible describes is still possible in this day and time...
Assuming that the verses about a father not giving his child serpents and scorpions applies to speaking in tongues...
Assuming that people cannot just randomly string sounds together that kind of sound like a language...
Sure, I'll buy that speaking in tongues cannot be counterfeited to the individual; that is anyone who desires to speak in tongues according to the biblical records will be able to genuinely speak in tongues; whether God has to intervene to protect that Christian from devilish influence or whatever. I see the point and agree with it from a biblical perspective. I just can't see God making a phenomena like speaking in tongues available to folks and then leaving the door open for the devil to posess their vocal cords.
However, from the non-Christian perspective, there's nothing special about hearing those sounds being made, nothing that makes us say "Okay, I'm done worshipping other gods, Jesus be real...gimme a bible!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
I have yet to see the reason for the yet.
Perhaps.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
lol...lol...Oakspear....
I believe there is speaking in tongues of angels and men today. I also believe that it was done by Jesus. Cause who was he speaking to in the wilderness? Certainly the carnal mind could not deal with this spiritual situation in which the spirit led him. I believe he was speaking by the spirit within. It can be called speaking in tongues or speaking by the spirit of God.
I also believe it takes angels to understand angels speaking.
I do believe these verses and their respective contexts reflect this speaking in tongues.
KJV: Mt 13:13
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
KJV: Mt 13:14
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
KJV: Mt 13:15
15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
KJV: Mk 4:12
12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
KJV: Mk 6:2
2And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
KJV: Lk 8:10
10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Right, what kind of assurance would that be? I think the phenomena of speaking in tongues & devils possessing people's vocal cords are realities that are so far apart from one another that they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same denotation, and aren't - except by people who don't make the distinction. All I can say to that is "whatever."
A couple was sitting on a love seat together, & the guy said to the girl ( no offense to girls), "You know the problem we are having communicating? You're a generalist, & I'm a specificist." She said, "Whatever." He said, "Exactly!"
God doesn't leave doors to devil possession open; people do. People who genuinely seek, get the genuine article. Hence the absoluteness of the assurance.
Absolutely - a matter of perspective!
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Dancing:
I don't understand why you believe that the verses that you quote indicate Jesus speaking in tongues. As far as I can tell he is never overtly said to have done this. Are you saying that where it says in those verses that folks didn't understand, were dull of hearing etc, it was becasue Jesus was speaking in tongues?
Are you using a definition of speaking in tongues that is different than "speaking a tongue that is unknown to the speaker"?
I'm just not following your logic
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Yes though I don't think my definition would make to Websters or Wikipedia.
And not quite sure how to put it anyway.
Jesus said they heard but didn't understand, saw but didn't see.
These parables and even other things he said were not understood.
Though this does not make not understanding what someone says speaking in tongues.
For example, here in Corinthians the one speaking in toungues is edified.
And therefore understands what he is speaking.
Bear with me now, I'm not done yet..
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church-yeah
But here what is this really saying
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Could it be that Paul would understand but no fruit because noone else does?
His understanding is unfruitful. Fruit, as in fruitful to others and for others.
Is this helping? I don't know if I can say it quite right.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Also this-
One could speak in tongues and not go any further to try and get the meaning across.
Or is it saying that 'except he interpret' would be the one hearing.
And could be both but not too sure about that....yet...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
I believe it is called speaking in tongues because others do not understand at times.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Also...lol...I told ya , bear with me :)
Some are better at speaking in tongues then others, as that is stated in 1 Cor 12 and so on.
Somethings just flow for some better then others,
but as it says I think quite clearly that everyone is equally iomportant no matter what they are good at concerning spiritual matters as it starts out in 12:1. Also I think there is a lot in these 3 chapters that we have not even come close to understanding.
You see I also believe the Bible is in tongues. And there is understanding of parts of it by many and as we listen grow and learn more and more of these scriptures will open up it's treasures as the Spirit opens the ears and eyes.
'Nothing new under the sun" Limited. Yet here we are talking about speaking with new tongues, hearing with new ears and seeing with new eyes. So we must be speaking of things beyond what is under the sun, a newness yet to be discovered. Unlimited.
The word 'new' is especially interesting in Psalms and Isaiah and Jermiah and well quite a few places. There are 150 uses of the word in the kjv.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
You and I seem to have extremely different ways of processing information, so I have to work a little harder to "get" what you're saying sometimes. I'll get back to this tomorrow night
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kit Sober
Addressing the issue of "speaking in tongues = twi mindspeak":
A reminder: vpw plagiarized from BG Leonard, JD Stiles, EW Bullinger and many others. Although he may have mentioned other people in acknowledgement of having studied with them, it was always with a supercilious air of "if he only knew what I know. . ." to the end that twi people were stamped with a predudice against anything non-twi as unimportant because, certainly, all important things they had to say had been included in the illustrious works of vpw.
I did a search at Christian Book Distributors website for "tongues" and received 267 different items.
Note: for anyone who wants to buy vpw books: A search of amazon.com interestingly revealed many.
Speaking in tongues did not begin or end with TWI. A major revelation into the corporate Christian consciousness was given by the Azuza Street mission in California, and neither the original testimonies nor the 100th anniversary events this year mention vpw at all (that I have seen). I wasn't there for either event.
Currently almost if not all of the non-denominational evangelistic groups (degradingly insulted by vpw categorically because they did not live up to his high standards) have been steadily working with Holy Spirit through the years and developing the Biblical doctrines and explanations of speaking in tongues.
A recent book that started me thinking along this line was "The Hidden Power of Speaking in Tongues" by Mahesh Chavda. This man, Mahesh Chavda came into holy spirit arena with a ministry of prayer and fasting, and he and his wife coordinate at the minimum a Friday nite all nite prayer and fasting service, which is broadcast over the internet. From his introduction, " 'I thank God I Speak in tongues more than you all.' Spoken by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:18. In Mahesh Chavda's new book The Hidden Power of Speaking in Tongues, we are once again reminded and carefully taught about the incredible possibilities available in speaking in tongues. This spiritual gift, much maligned and controversial in our day, was a vibrant and necessary part of the worship and intercession of the early Church. It is an experience that hungry believers long to rediscover here in the twenty-first-century Church, as millions search for a more meaningful understanding and relationship with their Lord.
As he softly removes the mystique and mystery overshadowing this glorious gift, Chavda challenges the Body of Christ to pursue afresh the secret dynamic of speaking in tongues."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I like that entire excerpt from Max, Tom. That's very applicable for our discussion...I was thinking more of a line from a Grateful Dead's tune "...what a long strange trip it's been."
....But seriously I did like that excerpt - and your response to me. Thanks
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
I'm thinking...
Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged.
Get back, get back, get back to where you once belonged.
Get back Jojo.
:B)
Again, seriously - but not too seriously - you're very welcome. It's been great "talking" with you.
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Holy cow !!!!! Tom, I freaked when you used that song! I thought it was a subliminal message telling me to return to TWI. Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.........sorry I'm in a joking mood tonight....And seriously - it has been great yakking with you on this thread.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Your assignment is to memorize Kit's post before you go to sleep tonight - 11:00 PM for Corps, 12:00 for WOWs, everyone else doesn't count, but you can emulate either of the above standards if you hope for greatness.
Dang, you never belonged THERE - the legalism of those deadlines, but you do belong in the substance of Kit's post - in a place in communication with God in which TWI isn't mentioned or thought about.
In that light, back to the song - You may think you are a loner, but you belong where Loretta waits with high heal shoes & low cut sweater.
If you can dig the spiritual analogy - "Go home, boy."
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.