Speaking in Tongues

[oldiesman]

... All those "tongues" seem to have had little effect there; instead of possessing Christ-like characteristics, many of those highly esteemed in twi turned out to be conniving, lying-thieving weasles, from the founder on down.

Yeah, it makes a lot of good sense to reassess all that "tongues" stuff!

Poor reasoning for me. Makes no sense to throw away what would be useful, because of someone's elses sins.

Additionally, twi didn't invent SIT and there's plenty of folks who do it who never were influenced by twi.

[Mike]

Sorry to hit-and-run (again) but...

I was long ago (and now am constantly) impressed with the ego crushing efficiency SIT wields.

The operation of SIT as we grads were taught is essentially a matter of training the “English Editor” portions of our brains that their services are no longer needed until the current stream of SIT is over, and THAT may hopefully not be for hours. It’s humiliating to the English Ego to SIT.

The operation of much SIT helped me to reckon dead one of the most influential elements of my old man nature: my internal English Editor.

The operation of SIT was a constant reminder AND primer that there was extrasensory information available if we were walking in the right direction. By primer I mean it “primed the pump” for the flow of spiritual information and data in the other manifestations.

SIT... rivers of living water.

But when will it cease?

How will it cease?

Who will execute it’s cessation in any one believer?

Will it stop by free will, just like it started?

What will be the “go-ahead” to stop for YOU?

[Goey]

But the rotten fruits of the Way International have more than justified our exploring such possibilities. For all the tongues practiced throughout the Way International - rather than the collective "spiritual growth" that should have resulted in the greatest church movement in the world, it largely crashed and burned, the founder and his leaders manifesting anything but that resembling the "wisdom from above" as one might have reasonably expected. All those "tongues" seem to have had little effect there; instead of possessing Christ-like characteristics, many of those highly esteemed in twi turned out to be conniving, lying-thieving weasles, from the founder on down.

Yeah, it makes a lot of good sense to reassess all that "tongues" stuff!

Poor reasoning for me. Makes no sense to throw away what would be useful, because of someone's elses sins.

Additionally, twi didn't invent SIT and there's plenty of folks who do it who never were influenced by twi.

I think you missed the point Oldies. Danny did not say "throw away" but rather, "reassess".

Danny's reasoning is actually quite good IMO. On the other hand I find your reasoning pretty much non-existant.

If SIT (as TWI taught it) is all that TWI said it was, then explain what happened with TWI.

Did the "sins of a few" negate all the collective SIT and the spiritual edification and sharpness that should have accompanied it?

While "edifying the spirit" with much SIT, folks were either oblivious/unaware to the "sins of a few", or powerless to to do anything about them. And those "few" who did the sinning, "spake in tongues more than ye all" and even ran the show.

I think this speaks loudly as to what SIT (TWI style) is not good for, regardless what they said - and is reason enough to reassess what TWI taught concerning SIT.

If TWI experience/observation means anything at all, it suggests that SIT ( as TWI taught & practiced it):

Does not make a person honest

Does not make a person compassionate

Does not make a person loving

Does not make a person tolerant

Does not make a person patient

Does nothing to prevent "sin".

In a nutshell, SIT (as TWI taught it) does not necessarily make a person more Christ-like.

Yeah, maybe it makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but like VPW said, you can get a good feeling on a psychaiatrist's couch.

Edited June 26, 2006 by Goey

[T-Bone]

Cannot be uttered in a known language to the speaker. It doesn't say that exactly, I know, but it was surmised that this was what it meant. If we don't know what we should pray for as we ought in our own language, the other conclusion is SIT, laloeing something which cannot be laloed in your known language.

SIT still is the best explanation I've heard for this verse. Otherwise , if this verse is not talking about speaking in tongues, what exactly is it talking about? Can one explain in detail what these groanings are?

I'm not saying you're wrong, you could be correct. But instead of this verse being used to disprove SIT, I'd be more interested and appreciative of what this verse precisely is talking about, if not SIT.

I think the natural sense of Romans 8:26 means the Spirit's intercession is unutterable by any human in any language. In my opinion you are projecting a TWI bias into the verse...I don't think anyone could explain in detail what's going on - because WORDS would be used...This verse is talking about the Spirit's intercession - something the Spirit is doing...I don't know a whole lot about that...

Edited June 26, 2006 by T-Bone

[T-Bone]

Sorry to hit-and-run (again) but...

I was long ago (and now am constantly) impressed with the ego crushing efficiency SIT wields.

The operation of SIT as we grads were taught is essentially a matter of training the "English Editor" portions of our brains that their services are no longer needed until the current stream of SIT is over, and THAT may hopefully not be for hours. It's humiliating to the English Ego to SIT.

The operation of much SIT helped me to reckon dead one of the most influential elements of my old man nature: my internal English Editor.

The operation of SIT was a constant reminder AND primer that there was extrasensory information available if we were walking in the right direction. By primer I mean it "primed the pump" for the flow of spiritual information and data in the other manifestations.

This looks like you're turning your brain off...And how would this be a reminder that there was extrasensory info available - how would your brain figure that out since you don't understand the tongue - you know, with your English Editor being turned off? And how would you know if you're walking in the right direction?...In my opinion - "priming the pump" is a nice "technical" explanation for something that no one has any way of proving or documenting in Scripture.

Edited June 26, 2006 by T-Bone

[oldiesman]

If SIT (as TWI taught it) is all that TWI said it was, then explain what happened with TWI. Did the "sins of a few" negate all the collective SIT and the spiritual edification and sharpness that should have accompanied it?

I think what happened with TWI is irrelevant to whether SIT is a genuine spiritual manifestation.

I suppose one could argue that SIT is counterfeit, because the first century church was ruined as well.

SIT was around before twi and SIT may very well outlast twi.

While "edifying the spirit" with much SIT, folks were either oblivious/unaware to the "sins of a few", or powerless to to do anything about them. And those "few" who did the sinning, "spake in tongues more than ye all" and even ran the show.

I wouldn't know that those who sinned greatly "spoke in tongues more than ye all" in their private prayer life. Maybe they did or didn't? I don't know.

Even so, still doesn't make the manifestation part of all that sinning. There are folks who didn't do those dirty deeds, SIT'd and can attest to SIT benefits. SIT doesn't make anyone not sin if they choose to sin.

If TWI experience/observation means anything at all, it suggests that SIT ( as TWI taught & practiced it):

Does not make a person honest

Does not make a person compassionate

Does not make a person loving

Does not make a person tolerant

Does not make a person patient

Does nothing to prevent "sin".

In a nutshell, SIT (as TWI taught it) does not necessarily make a person more Christ-like.

I partially agree with you on this. TWI taught that the renewed mind would transform the believer, not just SIT. That takes work and effort, not only SIT but changing thoughts too.

Continual SIT in love can be a loving thing too... praying in tongues for someone is that along with edifying oneself in the spirit.

I think everything is attitude. If you proceed with the right attitude in wanting to do God's best, SIT CAN AID YOU in all these things you mentioned.

[dancing]

counterfeit

Interesting perception.

What does that really mean?

the renewed mind would transform the believer

And what work could man do to attain this renewed mind?

The work of men or the work of God?

[oldiesman]

I think the natural sense of Romans 8:26 means the Spirit's intercession is unutterable by any human in any language. In my opinion you are projecting a TWI bias into the verse...I don't think anyone could explain in detail what's going on - because WORDS would be used...This verse is talking about the Spirit's intercession - something the Spirit is doing...I don't know a whole lot about that...

If what you say is true and the Spirit is making intercession for us whether we SIT or otherwise; then I would say that SIT wouldn't effect that intercession either way.

Worse case scenario, SIT if you like, God doesn't hold it against you as far as I know.

[oldiesman]

And what work could man do to attain this renewed mind?

The work of men or the work of God?

It says "put on" the new man. That takes work, effort.

"Be transformed by the renewing of your mind".

I would say that God does the transforming, He works in us as we make the effort.

I believe this is true of SIT as well. I think I'm a better person partly because of SIT, it helps.

[dancing]

He works in us as we make the effort

.

If you don't mind me asking, what effort would that be that we make?

[oldiesman]

As we make an effort to do the will of God as stated in the scriptures.

Here's an example:

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.

Col 3:14 And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

All of this takes work, takes an effort on our part to do it.

Don't you agree?

[dancing]

Yes and from the heart, for real.

And it's not really work if it is the heart.

It's just how we are.

For out of the heart shall flow these rivers of living water.

Not understood in the carnal but in the spirit.

Where Christ who is our life is.

[oldiesman]

I agree with that too.

I believe that for SIT too.

[dancing]

Question-

Can the toungues of angels be understood?

Or recognized?

Edited June 26, 2006 by dancing

[allan w.]

I am 'blown away' by the lengths people will go to, to try to disprove s.i.t. is real. Even a previous poster who said she believed it was not genuine, but still did it !! Hard hearted to the 'things of the spirit' (imo).

[T-Bone]

If what you say is true and the Spirit is making intercession for us whether we SIT or otherwise; then I would say that SIT wouldn't effect that intercession either way.Worse case scenario, SIT if you like, God doesn't hold it against you as far as I know.

I think what has the most bearing on the issue is what's going on in our heart - as the next verse Romans 8:27 says, "And He who searches the heart knows what is the mind of the Spirit..."...And that makes me think of Matthew 15:8 where Jesus quotes Isaiah referring to hypocrites "This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me..."...Which goes along with what Dancing and Oldiesman said about the importance of the status of our hearts in the last few posts!

I am 'blown away' by the lengths people will go to, to try to disprove s.i.t. is real. Even a previous poster who said she believed it was not genuine, but still did it !! Hard hearted to the 'things of the spirit' (imo).

What lengths people will go to trying to prove what TWI palmed off as Speaking in Tongues was real!

[oldiesman]

Just because twi taught something doesn't make it unreal.

As mentioned before, SIT came before twi.

Perhaps if the original first century church wasn't lost, we may have had a continuation of SIT all throughout history to the present, without TWI. ...

[T-Bone]

Just because twi taught something doesn't make it unreal. As mentioned before, SIT came before twi.Perhaps if the original first century church wasn't lost, we may have had a continuation of SIT all throughout history to the present, without TWI. .../quote]

What I am calling into question is TWI's teaching about it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bliss]

How come the apostles didn't have to "practice" it? Jesus never said to do that?

He said "wait".

He also never "taught" them, it just happend. So how did they "just do it"?

So whatever it is, it is NOT what TWI said it was.

Oh wait, maybe they took PFAL first, ya know, during the 50 days of waiting. I always wondered what they were really doing in the upper room...... :blink:

[dancing]

Could it be possible that speaking in toungues has a radical (radical as in different then considered) meaning and aspect, major aspect of Son's of God speaking. And not that they do it some times but in the language of the hearers yet spiritual and heard and understood spiritually? Is it not spiritual? is it not the spirit speaking? Acts 2 really comes to mind. Doesn't the secrets once revealed belong to us and our children forever?

Edited June 26, 2006 by dancing

[Goey]

I think what happened with TWI is irrelevant to whether SIT is a genuine spiritual manifestation.

I suppose one could argue that SIT is counterfeit, because the first century church was ruined as well.

SIT was around before twi and SIT may very well outlast twi.

Once again you missed the point. The point there was not so much the genuineness, but rather the effectiveness in doing what TWI says it does. Does it work as advertised? Does it do all that TWI says it does? --- For example, is speaking in tounges really a "requirerment" for receiving relevation from God, as TWI taught in the Advanced Class? That would mean that God could not give relevation to anyone unless they spoke in tongues much and edified the spirit first. Is this really true?

But since you brought it up, the fact that the first century church had schisms and divisions does not say anything about the geniuness of tongues back then or today. I assume that what was practiced during Paul's time was genuine since it is in scripture. Even so, it did not prevent the divisions or discord, so we at least know one thing that it does not do.

But, to correlate first century tongues with todays tongues, particularly as TWI taught it, one must first show that the tongues practiced today is the identical to what was practiced then. Can that be done? How would you know?

I wouldn't know that those who sinned greatly "spoke in tongues more than ye all" in their private prayer life. Maybe they did or didn't? I don't know.

Even so, still doesn't make the manifestation part of all that sinning. There are folks who didn't do those dirty deeds, SIT'd and can attest to SIT benefits. SIT doesn't make anyone not sin if they choose to sin.

Strawman -- No one said or even implied that SIT was "part of all that sinning". Missed the point again. But VPW did claim to speak in tongues much, yet his life is a witness to the fact that SIT much does not help control the flesh. So we know another thing that SIT does not do.

I partially agree with you on this. TWI taught that the renewed mind would transform the believer, not just SIT. That takes work and effort, not only SIT but changing thoughts too.

Continual SIT in love can be a loving thing too... praying in tongues for someone is that along with edifying oneself in the spirit

I think everything is attitude. If you proceed with the right attitude in wanting to do God's best, SIT CAN AID YOU in all these things you mentioned.

Possibly it can be an aid to those things, but TWI's history and the the behavior of many of its most staunch adherents does not lend any evidence to that. Any evidence to that is purely subjective is it not?

Person A SITs much and is generally kind and loving, and always willing to help someone in need.

Person B SITs much, and is generally rude, unkind, abusive and is mostly self-serving.

Person C does not SIT is generally kind and loving, and always willing to help someone in need.

Person D does not SIT is generally rude, unloving, abusive and is seldom helpful .

I have seen all 4 types. What this tells me is that SIT is probably not much of a factor in these things at all.

SIT is certainly not "necessary" to manefest those things, is it? This is evidenced by the many folks that have never SIT, yet they still manage to demonstrate those "fruit of the spirit" abundantly. This belies the notion that to have the fruit of the spirt, you must operatate the manifestations of the spirit.

Oldies, where in the scriptures is the practice of "praying in tongues for someone" ever mentioned?

My somewhat casual observation is that those who speak in tongues much, as TWI taught, are no more spiritually edified (built up), are no more loving, are no more spiritually "tapped in" and seem to have no spiritual advantage over those who do not.

Can you offer any evidence to suggest otherwise?

[T-Bone]

In my opinion, people in TWI had developed a self-centered mind-set on the Holy Spirit field [courtesy of VPW and his Patchwork Orange book PFAL, RTHST, and TNDC].

I Corinthians 12: 11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." [NASB] VPW said it meant as the man wills according to each man's believing – I think it means as God wills, agreeing with I Corinthians 12:4-6 "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons." Looking at other parts of the chapter [v.18 "…God has placed the members, each one of them…just as He desired…" and v.24 "…But God has so composed the body…" and v.28 "God has appointed in the church, first apostles…"] it appears the distribution of these spiritual abilities is at God's discretion.

I wonder how much of what I saw was self-directed instead of coming from God? I remember my twig leader's wife always saying the same five or six words in a tongue but the interpretation was at least two or three sentences long. I never gave this linguistic oddity much thought until I brought my friend Steve to Twig – and he pointed that out to me. Every week, the same five or six words – with a different interpretation each time. Maybe each word had multiple meanings and functions – a diagram of the sentence would probably look like a complicated map of the NY Subway System.

Edited June 27, 2006 by T-Bone

[allan w.]

and does that make it counterfeit...because of her limited tongues ? I believe those who do speak in tongues fluently, beautifully, far, far outweigh them who 'feign it'.

Same with interpretaion of tongues. We who have no problem believing it and doing it KNOW when we 'feign' bits of it and we KNOW when we just let it pour forth spiritually.

[TheInvisibleDan]

I return to that question I posed earlier: in all your recollections/experiences in the Way, does anyone here recall any occasion where someone got rebuked, reproved or even kicked out of the group for having produced an "interpretation" or a "prophecy" that was not well-received by the leaders?

Danny

[dancing]

Danny

I've seen it happen once on a twig level.

Don't know the details cause the guy was taken to a back room afterwards.

Edited June 27, 2006 by dancing