I agree it is love that brings a man unto repentence. But since the Way represents the only love they have come to know and so then misrepresentation of the word is easily taken.
If they are debt people will look down upon them..thats sin condemnation! another tool of TWI.
If love is my need, God says it will always be met.even if I live in Tin Buck Two or the North Pole.
Invite him home with you for a cup of coffee. You will just carelessly have left your computer up and running with Grease Spot Cafe on screen with some relevant article (say, about some marriage ruined by TWI involvement). You will casually invite him to pick up something from near the screen...
... and he'll probably run screaming from your house pursued (in his opinion) by every devil spirit in the area.
Well. Maybe something like that will be worth a try. :unsure:
Hope they can sort things out between them and escape with their marriage intact.
Poor guy. Once Twi Leaders determine who the 'bad' spouse is, then the pressure is on...marriages, like people, are disposable there.
I'm assuming they mean counseling with in the household.
If he were fortunate enough to get counseling outside the household, then the control/anger/fear manipulation culture of TWI might come up, might open his eyes. What's that verse in Proverbs about corrupting good manners? Yeah, if you surround yourself with it...think you can control life by being angry, control family, spouse...
People put up with a lot because they were convinced that the altermative was worse. If you can convince someone that horrors await them "outside the household" control is relatively easy.
I believe that so many were able to walk away at one time in the late 80's because there were support systems, i.e. large numbers of people were leaving together, often preceeded by their leaders. There was no being cut off from "The Word". A similar situation existed in 2000. Although this time the support system was the internet, for example the Waydale forums, where people could interact, not just read anti-Wierwille screeds.
I'll say it's a great start with professional counseling, even if it is just for him. Provided that professional counseling is indeed with a true professional non-affiliated with TWI in any way. What area is your friend in? Maybe one of us can help with a suggestion. If nothing else, I'd recommend making sure the counselor/therapist gets some information on TWI and perhaps Steve Hassan's book, "Releasing the Bonds". This was a huge start for me. It was so nice to talk to someone face to face who wasn't involved with TWI and wasn't concerned about telling me what to do, but really wanted to know what I thought, felt, etc.
IF he's open to hearing different perspectives, I'd highly recommend giving him a copy of Chris Jordan's research paper on debt. If you don't have a copy, I'll gladly send you a copy. I also have a copy of what Rico Magnelli taught the WC on debt. That teaching came about AFTER Chris's paper was sent to HQ and many leaders in TWI. Amazingly, Rico's starts with Chris's definition and then totally veers off topic and is quite the humorous study in spin control. Chris's paper will show him that TWI is totally wrong in their legalism and that's using their own study techniques that they teach.
This could be a great start for him. I hope his wife has a different mindset than my ex did. He resented me talking to a stranger about us and, especially about TWI. But, he was going to choose the group over his commitment to his wife, regardless of the situation. Knowing that's how he felt should have been a red flag before walking down the isle, but I was too waybrained to believe it. Hopefully his wife isn't like my ex.
People put up with a lot because they were convinced that the altermative was worse. If you can convince someone that horrors await them "outside the household" control is relatively easy.
I believe that so many were able to walk away at one time in the late 80's because there were support systems, i.e. large numbers of people were leaving together, often preceeded by their leaders. There was no being cut off from "The Word". A similar situation existed in 2000. Although this time the support system was the internet, for example the Waydale forums, where people could interact, not just read anti-Wierwille screeds.
I don't agree at all, What support system existed? We were left for dead to rebuild our own life. We heard the same threats then as they do now ,were called every name under the sun. There was no one before us that had left to help us to lead the way like now. It was a decision made a conscious choice, a step off the cliff so to speak and these were people with years of service to the Way with years loyalty, people who had given their heart and soul for years to the ministry. But one thing they were not willing to do was to support unscriptural actions. It was not a choice that most wanted to make but it was the foundation of our lives God first, a lesson we had learned well. All fear, jobs, controlling words, lack of access to people and things pale when you weigh it according to scripture. then the choice is simple. To give up freedom of choice and submit to unbiblical actions is a result of a habit pattern of not aligning actions with scripture, following ministries and men, a choice we all can make or not.
Perhaps this sounds simplistic. In my experience with married friends, I have learned not to even SEEM like I am interfering or taking sides.
Also, I have learned never to "agree" with wounded spouses who are complaining about their partners. I try to just listen and, if pressed for input, I make it a point to advocate for the other spouse. (I am not talking about extreme cases of abuse here.)
This sounds like Relationships 101, I know. But intervention in a marriage without invitation is playing with dynamite, in my experience and in my opinion.
I meant no criticism of Polar Bear in my post. I was thinking about interference from TWI when I was talking about interference in marriages, in general.
People put up with a lot because they were convinced that the altermative was worse. If you can convince someone that horrors await them "outside the household" control is relatively easy.
I believe that so many were able to walk away at one time in the late 80's because there were support systems, i.e. large numbers of people were leaving together, often preceeded by their leaders. There was no being cut off from "The Word". A similar situation existed in 2000. Although this time the support system was the internet, for example the Waydale forums, where people could interact, not just read anti-Wierwille screeds.
Hey there Oak. I'm with WhiteDove on this one.
Certainly with some leaders leaving and many others leaving at the same time
would provide a catalyst of sorts for some -- but that wasn't true in my case.
Living so far from headquarters, I never knew about all the *goings on* there.
The foul wind blowing from New Knoxville finally wafted it's stench up here,
and the general (believer) reaction was one of shock, and disbelief.
Some folks decided to stick it out, and others like myself packed our bags and walked.
I personally found out about the mass exodus, AFTER I left.
The sexual improprieties were *condamning* enough in themselves,
but they also *clicked* a few other things I had wondered about.
I can't speak to the 2000 exodus, since I wasn't there for that one.
But in 86 - 87 I think a lot of folks felt just like I did --- BETRAYED.
I didn't need others (or leaders leaving), to make my decision.
Note the word "many" in my post. It means something different than "all"
Naturally there were folks that were on their own during the late 80's, just as there are folks who are on their own today. My point is that if you're not the only one, that's one less bit of leverage they had over you.
Other than what I read at GS I have first-hand accounts only of what happened here in Nebraska and in New York. In New York Finnegan and most of the rest of the leadership were fired en masse, in Nebraska all but a handful of fellowships left as complete units. And nationwide, when 80% of the leadership and people leave together, overall it's not exactly being alone in the wilderness (for most people).
If you think that I'm saying that people left because many others were also, I don't know that, and I'm not saying that. Everybody had their own reasons. However it would surprise me if no one left due to peer pressure.
One of things that gripes me is the undercurrent of thought where we GSers (and maybe ex-wafers in general) seem to think that when we got out was THE perfect time. It's incomprehensible that anyone stayed in past the exact second when we left, when for every wayfer who left "just when things were getting bad", or when "The Word was no longer central", or "unscriptual decisions were being made" there was someone else who left five years earlier for similar reasons.
Unscriptural decisions were being made in TWI long before the late 80's.
Now class...the word "many" is the Greek word abuncha which means "many of a different kind, where more than two are involved, to overflowing, on this side and on that side into manifestation"
I know a guy in TWI who I work with on occasions. He has been acting a little strange lately. Jumpy and anxious etc. So I asked him if everythng was ok. He told me that he and his wife have been fighting for quite a while over some issues in their lives concerning beliefs of the Way.
polar bear,
'Tis a challenge, for sure........to balance all the twi doctrine/practice in one's life, let alone, add to that the wife and family in tow. And, with some of those twi teachings about murmurrings and disputings....or the four fronts of the adversary (where self is one)........it takes alot of fortitude to even begin to mount a frontal attack on twi beliefs.
Many a couple goes thru this "in-fighting"......and hopefully, they will keep the twi local leader out of their marriage and affairs while they move to higher ground.
And yes.......coersion is one of twi's sharper tools.
It sounds more like "blackmail" than mere coercion.
The very "fear" God wants us to be free from has a way of creeping into the lingo of TWI.
I was surfing the other day and noticed the definition of the Way is still in their vocabulary. But like so many other issues, the term "freely avails" has come to mean "obeys the leadership".
"freely avails himself to fellowship meetings for spiritual nurture and growth."
should be
"automatically obeys leadership of his fellowship meetings for spiritual stiffling and mental stagnation."
"automatically obeys leadership of his fellowship meetings for spiritual stiffling and mental stagnatioion."
Great stuff. There's the new motto for TWI.
No longer will I be conned into believing that if I don't give a certain percent of my income that "God won't even look in my direction".
No longer will I be conned into believing that if I don't take a certain class I won't be in the category of a fully instructed believer to receive any kind of revelaton.
No longer will I be conned into believing that if I don't belong to a certain group I will be left out in a wilderness.
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WhiteDove
And these people allow this WHY? .... Tell me again I forget..........
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WordWolf
Because they've been convinced-through extensive indoctrination
and controlling the avenues of information-
that the only other option to "do what we say without question"
is to completely leave the presence and protection of God Almighty,
and be consigned to the outer darkness.
Or a "greasespot by midnight."
Those of us HERE know this is a transparent piece of fiction,
but those in the GRIP of it may not know any better.
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likeaneagle
I agree it is love that brings a man unto repentence. But since the Way represents the only love they have come to know and so then misrepresentation of the word is easily taken.
If they are debt people will look down upon them..thats sin condemnation! another tool of TWI.
If love is my need, God says it will always be met.even if I live in Tin Buck Two or the North Pole.
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Twinky
Invite him home with you for a cup of coffee. You will just carelessly have left your computer up and running with Grease Spot Cafe on screen with some relevant article (say, about some marriage ruined by TWI involvement). You will casually invite him to pick up something from near the screen...
... and he'll probably run screaming from your house pursued (in his opinion) by every devil spirit in the area.
Well. Maybe something like that will be worth a try. :unsure:
Hope they can sort things out between them and escape with their marriage intact.
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Bramble
Poor guy. Once Twi Leaders determine who the 'bad' spouse is, then the pressure is on...marriages, like people, are disposable there.
I'm assuming they mean counseling with in the household.
If he were fortunate enough to get counseling outside the household, then the control/anger/fear manipulation culture of TWI might come up, might open his eyes. What's that verse in Proverbs about corrupting good manners? Yeah, if you surround yourself with it...think you can control life by being angry, control family, spouse...
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Oakspear
Coercion only works when they have some leverage.
People put up with a lot because they were convinced that the altermative was worse. If you can convince someone that horrors await them "outside the household" control is relatively easy.
I believe that so many were able to walk away at one time in the late 80's because there were support systems, i.e. large numbers of people were leaving together, often preceeded by their leaders. There was no being cut off from "The Word". A similar situation existed in 2000. Although this time the support system was the internet, for example the Waydale forums, where people could interact, not just read anti-Wierwille screeds.
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likeaneagle
I agree Oakie.
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Belle
(((((Polar Bear's Friend)))))
I'll say it's a great start with professional counseling, even if it is just for him. Provided that professional counseling is indeed with a true professional non-affiliated with TWI in any way. What area is your friend in? Maybe one of us can help with a suggestion. If nothing else, I'd recommend making sure the counselor/therapist gets some information on TWI and perhaps Steve Hassan's book, "Releasing the Bonds". This was a huge start for me. It was so nice to talk to someone face to face who wasn't involved with TWI and wasn't concerned about telling me what to do, but really wanted to know what I thought, felt, etc.
IF he's open to hearing different perspectives, I'd highly recommend giving him a copy of Chris Jordan's research paper on debt. If you don't have a copy, I'll gladly send you a copy. I also have a copy of what Rico Magnelli taught the WC on debt. That teaching came about AFTER Chris's paper was sent to HQ and many leaders in TWI. Amazingly, Rico's starts with Chris's definition and then totally veers off topic and is quite the humorous study in spin control. Chris's paper will show him that TWI is totally wrong in their legalism and that's using their own study techniques that they teach.
This could be a great start for him. I hope his wife has a different mindset than my ex did. He resented me talking to a stranger about us and, especially about TWI. But, he was going to choose the group over his commitment to his wife, regardless of the situation. Knowing that's how he felt should have been a red flag before walking down the isle, but I was too waybrained to believe it. Hopefully his wife isn't like my ex.
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WhiteDove
I don't agree at all, What support system existed? We were left for dead to rebuild our own life. We heard the same threats then as they do now ,were called every name under the sun. There was no one before us that had left to help us to lead the way like now. It was a decision made a conscious choice, a step off the cliff so to speak and these were people with years of service to the Way with years loyalty, people who had given their heart and soul for years to the ministry. But one thing they were not willing to do was to support unscriptural actions. It was not a choice that most wanted to make but it was the foundation of our lives God first, a lesson we had learned well. All fear, jobs, controlling words, lack of access to people and things pale when you weigh it according to scripture. then the choice is simple. To give up freedom of choice and submit to unbiblical actions is a result of a habit pattern of not aligning actions with scripture, following ministries and men, a choice we all can make or not.
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Ellen Crean
Perhaps this sounds simplistic. In my experience with married friends, I have learned not to even SEEM like I am interfering or taking sides.
Also, I have learned never to "agree" with wounded spouses who are complaining about their partners. I try to just listen and, if pressed for input, I make it a point to advocate for the other spouse. (I am not talking about extreme cases of abuse here.)
This sounds like Relationships 101, I know. But intervention in a marriage without invitation is playing with dynamite, in my experience and in my opinion.
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Ellen Crean
Just a clarification
I meant no criticism of Polar Bear in my post. I was thinking about interference from TWI when I was talking about interference in marriages, in general.
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polar bear
Thanks Ellen-I figured that's what you meant.
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dmiller
Hey there Oak. I'm with WhiteDove on this one.
Certainly with some leaders leaving and many others leaving at the same time
would provide a catalyst of sorts for some -- but that wasn't true in my case.
Living so far from headquarters, I never knew about all the *goings on* there.
The foul wind blowing from New Knoxville finally wafted it's stench up here,
and the general (believer) reaction was one of shock, and disbelief.
Some folks decided to stick it out, and others like myself packed our bags and walked.
I personally found out about the mass exodus, AFTER I left.
The sexual improprieties were *condamning* enough in themselves,
but they also *clicked* a few other things I had wondered about.
I can't speak to the 2000 exodus, since I wasn't there for that one.
But in 86 - 87 I think a lot of folks felt just like I did --- BETRAYED.
I didn't need others (or leaders leaving), to make my decision.
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dmiller
Yes -- coercion and intimidation ABSOLUTELY attain that end.
Twi has mastered those two tactics really well (practice makes perfect).
Whom are your friends seeking to please now?? God? Or the Org??
You can bet your bottom dollar that God isn't holding a whip.
But twi is doing so, thus forcing allegiance to them instead ---
and all in the name of *the household*. (But what else is new?)
Roadkill -- good analogy.
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Oakspear
White Dove & Dmiller:
Note the word "many" in my post. It means something different than "all"
Naturally there were folks that were on their own during the late 80's, just as there are folks who are on their own today. My point is that if you're not the only one, that's one less bit of leverage they had over you.
Other than what I read at GS I have first-hand accounts only of what happened here in Nebraska and in New York. In New York Finnegan and most of the rest of the leadership were fired en masse, in Nebraska all but a handful of fellowships left as complete units. And nationwide, when 80% of the leadership and people leave together, overall it's not exactly being alone in the wilderness (for most people).
If you think that I'm saying that people left because many others were also, I don't know that, and I'm not saying that. Everybody had their own reasons. However it would surprise me if no one left due to peer pressure.
One of things that gripes me is the undercurrent of thought where we GSers (and maybe ex-wafers in general) seem to think that when we got out was THE perfect time. It's incomprehensible that anyone stayed in past the exact second when we left, when for every wayfer who left "just when things were getting bad", or when "The Word was no longer central", or "unscriptual decisions were being made" there was someone else who left five years earlier for similar reasons.
Unscriptural decisions were being made in TWI long before the late 80's.
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dmiller
Ahhhhh!!! Mea culpa! I'm spurtually derelict. :(
I failed to recognize the *many*, vs. the *all*.
(Is that *many* with distinction? ---
or *many* without exception??)
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Oakspear
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skyrider
polar bear,
'Tis a challenge, for sure........to balance all the twi doctrine/practice in one's life, let alone, add to that the wife and family in tow. And, with some of those twi teachings about murmurrings and disputings....or the four fronts of the adversary (where self is one)........it takes alot of fortitude to even begin to mount a frontal attack on twi beliefs.
Many a couple goes thru this "in-fighting"......and hopefully, they will keep the twi local leader out of their marriage and affairs while they move to higher ground.
And yes.......coersion is one of twi's sharper tools.
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YIdon'tgotochurch
It sounds more like "blackmail" than mere coercion.
The very "fear" God wants us to be free from has a way of creeping into the lingo of TWI.
I was surfing the other day and noticed the definition of the Way is still in their vocabulary. But like so many other issues, the term "freely avails" has come to mean "obeys the leadership".
"freely avails himself to fellowship meetings for spiritual nurture and growth."
should be
"automatically obeys leadership of his fellowship meetings for spiritual stiffling and mental stagnation."
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polar bear
"automatically obeys leadership of his fellowship meetings for spiritual stiffling and mental stagnatioion."
Great stuff. There's the new motto for TWI.
No longer will I be conned into believing that if I don't give a certain percent of my income that "God won't even look in my direction".
No longer will I be conned into believing that if I don't take a certain class I won't be in the category of a fully instructed believer to receive any kind of revelaton.
No longer will I be conned into believing that if I don't belong to a certain group I will be left out in a wilderness.
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