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It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership


rascal
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Along the line of Markomalley's post: My last year in TWI I read Isaiah a couple times through. The abuse scrpitures in Isaiah rang very clearly to my ears. Following are a few of those scriptures.

Note that this first one is addressed to the followers.

"...O my people, your leaders cause you to err, and they confuse (destroy & swallow up) the course of your paths." Is. 3:12b

"The Lord enters into judgment with the elders of His people and their princes: For (by your exactions and oppressions you have robbed the people and ruined the country) you have devoured the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor? says the Lord God of hosts." Is. 3:14 , 15

"For they who lead this people cause them to err, and they who are led (astray) by them are swallowed up (destroyed)." Is. 9:16

"Woe to those (judges) who issue unrighteous decress, and to the magistrates who keep causing unjust & oppressive decisions to be recorded. To turn aside the needy from justice & to make plunder of the rightful claims of the poor of my people.." Is. 10:1, 2a

It is clear from the scriptures in Isaiah that the leaders caused the people to err, yet God also addresses the followers. The decision to continue to follow lies with the followers. As with slavery (which imo was FAR WORSE than anything we experienced in TWI; just read a bio of Frederick Douglass), certain people get to the point where death is a better alternative than lifestyle.

It is always a decision that is weighed regarding various circumstances, which includes the individual's background, experiences (even outside TWI), personality, etc. Usually an individual is aware of the abuse (yes?), but because of coercion, etc., leaving feels impossible. The victim is not to blame for the abuse. At some point, hopefully, the victim can see through the forest and recognize what is happening. But while in the "frying pan" one may not feel the effects of the rising temperature; yet, others do feel it. Why? Who the hell knows!!!!!!!! (I know there are reasons, but it is not a black/white circumstance.)

I know we all know all this.

Whitedove I always respect your posts/opinions. I do not know you, but from what I have read and our few communications you seem an empathic, deep, Godly man. Your posts at the beginning of this thread do come across harsh. It could be the nature of cyber communication and perhaps the issue is Rascal's usage of the word "forced" as lindyhopper noted. As I stated earlier, I do not agree with the usage of the word "forced" in my case. Coerced, manipulated, deceived - yes. And I guess I can add "caused" (from Isaiah) to my list.

Some reasons I stayed for 28 years? (not in order of priority) 1) My family: I didn't want to cause division. 2) I didn't have the emotional energy to carry out the decision. 3) Fear of other's opinions in the household and possible consequences to my family. 4) I had taken a salt covenant to stand with God's Ministry, vowing I would never leave again. 5) Indoctrination that TWI was the true household of God....and I wanted to please God.

Why as a follower did I decide to leave? 1) The main reason was because of my family: The effects of wrong practice/doctrine were causing hurt. 2) My utter emptiness, lack of joy, and feeling of hypocrisy to continue to stay. Though this wasn't enough reason for me to leave. It took reason 1 to boost my conviction to action. 3) What I read on GSC.

BTW: I had good experiences the two summers I spent in residence at RC (80? and 83?). I do not recall seeing the happenings of what was written in the "abuse thread," but I believe those incidents happened to those people. In later years (90's) there was definite abuse of children (imo)....emotionally and physically. That stated, the same happens outside TWI as well and perhaps statistically in the same measure and also in the name of God.

PS: Waysider, thank you for the sweet words on your posts at the top of page 2. :redface2:

(I was posting while a few others were too.)

Edited by I Love Bagpipes
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Dove, you didn`t experience it, I get that, honest I do.

Never the less, these teachings were public, the teachings were used as a tool to get us to do horrible things or risk losing the protection of God.

Some called it coersion ...some called it force as they were applied... You don`t see it that way...shrug, I guess it is all in ones perspective.

If you were faced with the loss of God`s blessing and protection for lack of obedience in any one of these catagories, your perspective might be different.

You might not feel like these teachings were as innocuous as they appear on the surface.

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quote: Even the Research Team abandoned wierwille in the early 80s

Who exactly are you talking about. The Nessles didn't. Neither did John Crouch, or Chip Stansbury. Schoenheit was dismissed the year after VP died.

Rascal: When you gonna figure out you DON'T SPEAK FOR EVERYBODY! Why do you torture yourself? Did God tap you on the shoulder and command you to speak this stuff?

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Calm down John, I never ever claimed to speak for everyone, honest I didn`t, please read my post.

What I said was, that these teachings were what were used to make many many of us to do the things I listed.

Each incident was one personally attested to by people right here.

Please don`t mischaracterize me or my post.

Pipes, I think that you nailed that effectively.

I agree with your conclusion.

Edited by rascal
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Jon her second post clearly takes out the "we" that always bugs you, so I guess she has heard your voice through your posts.

Here it is:

"I shouldn`t have said *we* allowed....

There were many who were couragious enough to stand up for yourselves and your families against leadership.

Some of you already knew God intimately enough to know that he would never ever require that of us.

Some of you behaved with honor in spite of what we were taught.

I admire all of you who stood up for principle, consequences be damned."

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Pipes said:

Note that this first one is addressed to the followers.

"...O my people, your leaders cause you to err, and they confuse (destroy & swallow up) the course of your paths." Is. 3:12b

"The Lord enters into judgment with the elders of His people and their princes: For (by your exactions and oppressions you have robbed the people and ruined the country) you have devoured the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor? says the Lord God of hosts." Is. 3:14 , 15

"For they who lead this people cause them to err, and they who are led (astray) by them are swallowed up (destroyed)." Is. 9:16

"Woe to those (judges) who issue unrighteous decress, and to the magistrates who keep causing unjust & oppressive decisions to be recorded. To turn aside the needy from justice & to make plunder of the rightful claims of the poor of my people.." Is. 10:1, 2a

I was looking for those scriptures as I believe they apply here.

Thanks

Edited by Dot Matrix
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Wow, humbling to see it in print.

I think that we (those who suffered due to these doctrines) are living illustrations of the validity of these verses.

Wow

Do we ever get any smarter as Christians? I mean as a group judging by those scriptures you quoted Dot, we seem to commit the same mistakes, fall for the same traps generation after generation...sigh

2000 plus years and we are still being crippled be the same tricks.

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Hi Dove=I was not referring to the beating of kids in my post. Of course I would never endorse or even think of anything along this nature. The thread topic was started as "is it impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership. Yes there are some things that are black and white but to generalize that satement can be dangerous. That's why religious groups have caused so much heartache. There are many times when leaders made decisions they believed were from God but were not. There are obvious ones like beating children but then there are very sublte ones. Of course the answer to this thread is simple -Yes is it possible to obey God without leadership consent. However I tried this once in the Way and I was shoved down my throat for 3 hours in a yelling session. That was the problem with TWI or any big corporation. They begin to think they are God! And you are not allowed to question decisions. Whit dove I enjoy your posts I have no critisicm of you at all.

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The topic was that this was what was taught in twi and was used specifically as the means to force people into doing things that they didn`t want to do, things that were contrary to their natures.

The acts in and of themselves may or may not have been right or wrong for the particular person or situation at the time.

What WAS tragically wrong was that it was presented as GOD`S requirement and not a leaders suggestion or idea.

If it had been presented as a leader or a man`s recomendation, we would have then been free to consider and make our decisions. But these teachings in particular declared them commandments of God...one had only two choices...Obey God, or face spiritual/physical death as a result of no longer being in the center of his will.

If you didn`t go wow or corpes or jump in whatever direction struck a leaders fancy, you were outside of God`s will...

If you did go against your better judgement and attempt the program and failed, you were a loser and a liar ... your heart was never right.....

I cannot begin to describe the heart break and horror of being forced to do something that you were adamantly against, something that every fiber of your being rebelled against and felt was wrong......but being forced to make the choice between what you felt was right and what somebody said God required....

It has been over 20 years, but the stomach sickening, heavy hearted, soul deadening feeling can still be felt if I focus on particular instances ....some more difficult than others :( just as intensely today as on the very days that I was forced to decide between what I believed was right and God`s will.

It just didn`t feel like I had any choices when these doctrines were wielded as the authority to enforce the leaders desires..

Edited by rascal
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In hindsight, I see a huge gap between what was taught and what was practiced...

On one hand, people were taught about the one body of Christ, with Christ being the head.

In practice, a bait and switch tactic was used to replace the body of Christ with the waytree and Christ (as head) with Wierwille.

We were taught that every believer had direct access to God and could receive revelation directly from Him.

In practice, we were taught to go to our leader in the waytree to determine God's will.

Without this bait and switch tactic, twi would have been relegated to being equal members in the body of Christ with no actual authority to establish and rule their religious hierarchy.

Was it a deliberate deception?...I believe that it HAD to be. Wierwille's desire to be "some great one" trumped any biblical knowledge he had when it came to being the mog who was revered and obeyed.

This trickled down through the hierarchy, with the end result being those on ego trips who lorded over the lives of the sincere.

Their false teachings on the "household" versus the "family" laid the groundwork to dismiss all other Christians from having any valid claim of authority or fellowship...twi became a meanspirited, controlling, counterfeit of the true body of Christ...

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See the word FORCE is what people were having a problem with IMO.

IF someone told you to beat your kid into submission or you would not be doing the will of the Lord -- -- they will be a tool of the devil... in whatever words.... You could have said, "You people are nuts. I will not do that." And left. OR chapter and verse?

The problem is people BELIEVED they were helping to keep their children from becoming possessed by beating them or odd extreme punishment and soul crushing judgement. They believed it because they were conditioned by fear to FOLLOW the leader.

The point I see you making is you felt like you could NOT leave the ministry and still have God's love. So, to keep God's love and protection you obeyed leaders -- who should NOT have been obeyed--

So, you felt forced --if you wanted to STAY.

But others are saying why didn't you speak up or leave?

I think that is a question that haunts many of us in whatever area we BENT our morals and ethics in order to stay.

I can see why now looking into the adult faces of the children of the Way might be very hard. To try to explain that the fear of loosing God was greater than your fear of hurting them is difficult to reconcile.

I know I pretty much cut off my family when I was ion TWI. Missed my father's birthdays, retirement party, reunions etc. Because I was a WOW or in rez. or whatever and that was so much more important.

I could have just said, "I am going." But then I would not have been able to remain in the Corps or a WOW. So, in order to keep my commitment to God (he that vows a vow) I missed my family for 16 years.

Nobody held a gun to my head, but I was forced to meet those requirements if I wanted to stay in the programs.

Groucho:

Amen!

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YW gracious Dot. I had them written in the back of one of my journals, so it was easy for me to find them.

:wink2:

Dot stated: "Nobody held a gun to my head, but I was forced to meet those requirements if I wanted to stay in the programs."

Well stated....and in that context "force" is an apt word (imho).

Edited by I Love Bagpipes
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DogLover,

I just have to tell you that your analogy of the "little by little" technique used by Hitler was one of the most CLEAR bits of wisdom I have ever seen about wrong teaching.

Sometimes, when I remember how twisted things eventually became (especially in the mid to late '80s), I get sort of twisted around myself and I think, "How did it ever COME to that?"

Your analogy really gave me clarity. Very smart. Thank you.

(and the frog in the frying pan works for me too!)

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Interesting thread and I think some people took the first post a little too seriously. And maybe themselves.

What I understand Rascal as trying to say is that we were sometimes placed on compromizing positions where we had to sometimes bend the rules or go against what we thought was right in order to keep in the game.

I don't interpret her post as meaning we were forced - i.e. gun to the head - but certaily there were times when the cringe factor was up to a 10.

For example - when the whole M&A thing was hot and heavy. I remember we had a leader who M&A'ed a young couple because they wanted to get married at DisneyLand and they were going to foot the bill pretty much for everyone who could attend, but obviously they couldn't afford to invite the whole state of AL to the wedding. They refused to change the location of their wedding because they had already made reservations and it's what THEY wanted. If they had changed their plans, they wouldn't have been M&A'ed.

See what I mean by being placed in compromising positions?

They made a choice and the outcome was negitive by the standards we were being taught at that time.

Notice I didn't say the teachings were RIGHT - nope. Didn't say that.

I also think that this standard for making choices that you probably knew weren't right - as in, right on the Word or right in your heart - but RIGHT by the standards of those who were around you - was probably worse for women than it was for men.

For example - my first husband had some serious anger management problems - that's an understatment. After one time when he'd roughed me up pretty badly, and I told leadership, I was then told that it happened because I didn't submit to him enough. His idea of submit was that I didn't say "boo" about anything at anytime - basically it meant I had to let him do exactly as he wished - no matter WHAT. I knew that was off - I could have and should have said something. Frankly, I should have left him before our marriage was 6 months old - but I didn't it. I felt I would have failed my marriage and the vow I had made before God no matter what - no matter if the bastard raped or beat me. Didn't matter - that was the Word, right? I felt like if I left him then I wouldn't be accepted anymore by the ministry. I would be M&A'ed

I compromised what I had been taught - I made that decision. But since I'd ....ed off all my family and friends because I was in TWI, I felt I really had no where to go if I did leave. And I felt I'd be "outside the household" - the adversary was going to get me.

To this day I blame no one - I could have walked at any time. Sure.

I think I understand the *heart* of what Rascal is trying to say.

Been there. Done that.

Sooooo over it!

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The long and the short of "It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership" is that in order for this to be true leadership has to be on a par with God.

My church has a prophet--but that doesn;t mean we are to have blind obedience or allegiance to everything that comes out of his mouth. We are to check with God to see if one, is what was said true and two, how it applies and is to be applied in our daily walks.

Anything else deprives God of his standing.

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Yeah, Chas, the M&A junk was a big motivator. So it was "off the word"....so what, for some of us leaving had broader consequences.

For me it was a fear of loosing my entire immediate family (mom, stepdad, brothers). When I finally left I was at a point that I thought that was a very real possibility (never seeing or hearing from them again- M&Aed forever). I had leaders who had said they did that to their own family and of course we had been told how to treat those that were M&Aed and how screwed up they were. So there was the pressure of how I thought my family would think of me as well.

So by the time I left I was mentally ready for that to happen and part of me expected it to, yet I was at a point where loosing my family was not as bad as staying. That is pretty f*cked up! It seems almost unreal to me at this point...like a different life (only 5-6 years ago, ha).

Thankfully, while the first 6-12 months were kinda rough and contact was sparce, we eventually got back to a pretty normal relationship, and in recent years it has gotten much better.

For me, that was a big part of what "forced" me to put up with a ton of bs.

Of course, thinking that I had to obey leadership to obey God was a big part of it at first though, too. I had questions and never got answers but I was of the mentality for quite some time that this was the best thing going and that it was a flaw in my understanding. Knowing my own doubts had me battling in my mind over these unanswered questions and the things that I thought were wrong vs. not being spiritually mature enough to understand them.

Edited by lindyhopper
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I think this issue was under Martindale's reign. I don't recall any of this before his time. Moreover I believe it was in the mid '90's, that it started getting like that.

They told you there was nothing outside the household...everything would eat you and God would not spit in your direction...then they told you to do something...and if you balked at it...they threatened to toss you out where all the bad stuff was.

If you wanted God in your life, you had to do it on their terms. Simple as that...in those times.

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It's been interesting reading all your posts....and I think everyone has very good points to consider...

Galatians has much to say about motivation by fear...and even Peter was mislead...Yet he was confronted by Paul, and he changed. I'm not advocating confront twi now...whether or not there are any meek hearts like Peter's....I don't know...Only God does..

(Wouldn't you all conclude that it takes meekness on the part of a leader to admit that he or she is wrong?) At least, it would be a leader I would respect....

But what happened back then is something we can learn from...and try to avoid it ever happening again in our lives...

At least now we can now make decisions for our lives without all that pressure!!!

Thank God!!!

And I believe God is still at work in us!

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Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,

Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me;

Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

There are many who became like children in TWI. Just as nobody would blame or, in fact, affix any sort of responsibility to a teenage boy (even a 16, 17, or 18 year old) who was sexually abused by a homosexual Catholic priest, it is inappropriate, in my opinion, to affix any sort of responsibility to those who were spiritually abused by twi leadership.

I am not saying that a person bears no responsibility to check the scriptures for him or herself, but, scripturally, the responisbility for abuse lays squarely and solely with those charged with pastoring, not with those pastored.

How nice to see you around here again Mr. O'Malley.

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At least now we can now make decisions for our lives without all that pressure!!!

Thank God!!!

amen to that, Lori. what I couldn't do then, I am learning to do now, and I will not let anyone interfere with my freedom again.

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Dove, you didn't experience it, I get that, honest I do.
Me or hundreds of other people I know either who were there.
Some called it coercion ...some called it force as they were applied... You don't see it that way...shrug, I guess it is all in ones perspective.

There is a huge difference between forcing someone to do something and asking, telling or even pressuring someone to do something. Everyday we are asked to do things like stop at stop signs and pay taxes. they are rules, laws for us to follow. Most people do, if not you pay the consequences of your choice. But the truth is we still have a choice no one forces us, if you don't mind paying the fine or going to jail you can run all the stop signs you want.

No one was forced to obey anyone, as I said that does not mean that there were not consequences if you did not but the choice was there. You imply that that was none.

If you were faced with the loss of God's blessing and protection for lack of obedience in any one of these categories, your perspective might be different.

What makes you think I was not? And no my perspective is not different, none of those threats move me. I've been through the same gauntlet of threats they are nothing new. Fortunately I had the scriptures to clarify if those things they said were true or not. I had a choice.

The truth is hundreds if not thousands of people spent time at Rome City and had a perfectly enjoyable experience. For what ever your reason as is you manner you have again isolated a few instances and tried to paint the place as some sort of Marquis de Sad dungeon where children were tortured. The balance of facts don't support that conclusion. Sorry I'm not letting you wipe out years of truthful history because of a few exceptions in the later years. I freely admitted that I have no knowledge of what occurred in later years as I was not there nor did those I knew hang around during that time. I never disputed that the records were true only that I could not validate them as such personally,nor have I ever heard such claims from others. It's dishonest to take isolated events from one time period and transpose them into all time periods. As even many here will admit there was never any Way doctrine compelling anyone to abuse their children. With all the many people that became involved with the way I'm sure that there were some with existing issues, in fact I know that there were. You can plug any doctrine you want into these individuals and they will alter it to their predisposed personality flaws. Controlling people will be controlling ,abusive people will be abusive, that does not make the doctrine bad only the ones who misuse it incorrectly. Personally I was never a spoon fan myself I never saw the sense of caring around a cooking tool. We had an abundance of children here any none of them were ever physically abused due to any teaching. I've worked children's fellowship at three root locations and have never seen anyone abused there either.

To those who think I take myself a little too seriously, you obviously don't know me, anyone who does would not think that was true. The truth is for whatever reason all those years of teaching on Prove all things hold fast to that which is good, It Is Written , The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice, The Word of God is the Will of God I guess sunk in. I suppose I was naive enough to believe that was how everyone lived their life. I wish I knew what makes some to rise to believe and stand, while others falter, if I did I'd bottle it up and give it away. Dot thank you for your kind words but I never saw myself as some great leader nor do I today. I only did what I knew to do instinctly . To me it is like breathing, something you do yet don't think about. Honestly to this day it remains a mystery to me why anyone would be moved by such things as loss of position, jobs, family issues, being M&A, access to way materials, threats of losing God's love and others when we have so much clear instruction from scripture to the contrary. My Bible says nothing can separate us from God's love. It seemed such a simple choice, thinking back I guess I never considered putting any of those things before my relationship with God was viable option. Of all the lessons learned in my time at the way I remain most thankful for somehow by God's grace learning that one. I wish I could say I always make right choices of course we know that is not true. I've thought about this a lot over the last years and the times that I did not make sound choices were the times I failed to keep my thoughts grounded in scripture. And perhaps that is the answer I think VP used to say that we hold the word but the word does not hold us. I am a firm believer in owning your own choices and consequences in life. As I said if someone teaches me wrongly they own that and it's consequences. But I do have a reference point from which I can make right choices so if I don't, It's me O Lord who is responsible no one else.

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Dove- Look I'm sorry but...

Look it seems you are strong "in the word" and you seem to be more of a warrior and understand where you are with God.

But I am sure you have an Achilles heel.

Ya know, I cannot imagine anyone taking their pants off for someone they did not want to take their pants off for. I cannot imagine doing other things from bended knee to someone I did not love, but who shamed me into feeling like God wanted me to do it.

I SAID NO!

I never have. I fought it like a pitbull. Just like you speak in your post.

I am not going to be "self righteous" to those who were crippled in that area. If someone says, "I was pushed into doing something awful that makes me sick."

I can say, "You always had a choice how could you be so weak? How could you not speak up and say no or speak the Words of the word?"

I COULD say that because I refused to SERVICE him. And I did go back armed with the Word of God and reproved VPW. It did no good for him, but it was great for my insides.

However, we all have areas where we are not strong. I know someone who was sexually abused by two family members as a child. Helpless and hopeless she was used as a tool for these men to ejaculate. Like a living Apparatus they could have bought at a porn shop.

The emotional damage and diminished self-esteem is almost irrepairable (except by God). And for me to say to a person such as that -- "Why didn't you take a stand? Why didn't you say no? He did not hold a gun to your head? You had a choice!"

Well, my dove, it is simply mean and uncompassionate.

And many people did not see VPW naked or have him try to get them in the sack, but because he met with more women clothed than he did naked, does it mean he really was okay and we should not bring up those experiences?

Cause that is kind of what it seems as though you are doing and saying about the Child abuse in Rome City.

I do not think Rascal is attacking you. I think she is just trying to vent some of the horror she experienced and it seems you keep shutting her right to vent down -- with scripture and an example of your strength.

I think she needs to talk about what happened so she can figure things out.

I see your guts, I see your stand in all of this. Is it possible to show your gushy little underbelly of compassion for a minute and just let these people talk about what happened to them?

I try to do that with the sex stuff. I do not know all that makes people into who they are but I consider myself blessed that I had strength in the area of the sex crap and that I could look at VPW and leave. However, the same situation to an emotionally fragile person trying to find God’s love, might just crack them into dust right there on the floor of the motor coach.

I can’t judge them because I was strong—or in a way that makes me into a self-righteous weakling. Trying to feel good because I was able to stand and they were not. It comes across like rubbing their nose in their failure. I think people can learn from your strength, I know I can and admire how you stood. But somehow in this thread it is coming across a bit cocky rather than compassionate.

Sorry Dove. It may not be what you mean. You may be trying to show people they can fight back. But it is coming across a bit mean.

Love ya, but geez

Edited by Dot Matrix
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