I honestly believe their attitude is one of being superior called of God. the definition is "the head of a religous community".
yes i think people are critical of how they live life and behaviours and I know they live off that, educate their children and theirself off that and travel off that.
they ask for the money, but think money doesnt cost anything in life.
it costs every person plenty.
they do not get that.
and when the toe must meet the line SUDDENLY they become a victim .
and satan must be attacking them.
shat we are all accoutable but them . because they are the superior. get over it , get a job answer to someone eles for a change!
oh heck no not that not EVER. none of them ever lived in submission to anyone.. mark G. had his own company and called the shots and both Johns have never left the ministry and living off the collection of people pleasing with a sermon.
this is NOT a well rounded life.
and the very last one to tell me how to run my own.
Guys in big D used to go offer moral support to a girl that did just that. But she was pretty and hot. She was pretty neat actually ... and I hope she is doing well still. Married some fellowshipper there ... nice crowd they were.
But I don't think MG could make a career of it. He better keep his pants on in public, and not try to show off to young ladies like VP allegedly did. :wacko: People aren't quite so forgiving these days.
I honestly believe their attitude is one of being superior called of God. the definition is "the head of a religous community".
True, Pond.. and they have self-appointed emmisaries ("prophets") to go before them, sounding a trumpet, boldly declaring their "apostleship".. practically threatening hell fire if you are among them who doubt.
At no place would you find JL saying he was an apostle. Why should he, when he has others that will do it for him? No reason to get his own hands dirty..
Nowhere have I seen jl deny it. No.. he's just an apostle by default.
The same tactic worked for vic as well. Send out special emmisaries to beat down the doubters and naysayers. Or simply allow them to do so. loy did the same thing in the nineties, but he made a few mistakes, he was just a little too obnoxious.
True, Pond.. and they have self-appointed emmisaries ("prophets") to go before them, sounding a trumpet, boldly declaring their "apostleship".. practically threatening hell fire if you are among them who doubt.
At no place would you find JL saying he was an apostle. Why should he, when he has others that will do it for him? No reason to get his own hands dirty..
Nowhere have I seen jl deny it. No.. he's just an apostle by default.
The same tactic worked for vic as well. Send out special emmisaries to beat down the doubters and naysayers. Or simply allow them to do so. loy did the same thing in the nineties, but he made a few mistakes, he was just a little too obnoxious.
I think Juedes hits the nail on the head with these losers.
I recall vividly a situation (about 7 or 8 years ago)... where local CES leaders tried to gang up on a certain "believer" who didn't bow and scrap and was viewed as a trouble maker...they tried to pull off one of those "accountability" meetings with him, where they would drag all his sins out in the open for all to see...he was to confess his sins to the CES group.
I thought the whole thing stunk and told JAL as much...I also told them all what I thought of Momentus (where this doctrine came from)...
Personal prophesy my arse...they learned well from their "father in the word"...
I wonder if they view momentus as some kind of "advanced class" in their curriculum. Only for da faithful, those who are "mature" enough to have come to the realization that they owe their very lives to da ministry..
I wonder what color of a name tag you get in the process.
When I hear the words "mature" or "ready", I get this sick feeling.
Would it be an honest assessment to state that all of the upper hierarchy in CES are momentus "grads"?
Hammer...I would guess that all of the top tier CESers are Momentus grads...perhaps with a few exceptions.
I don't view Momentus as the advanced class of CES, as much as I see it as a merger...a merger of thought...a merger of two conceptual components.
The "effectiveness" of the Momentus training prompted CES leaders to blend their theology as to be compatible with the Momentus training...
Even when CES stopped openly endorsing Momentus (there was a lot of bad publicity regarding Momentus), they continued to practice the "Momentus lifestyle" of repentance and confrontation...( sticking their nose in everybody's business)...
...Now, combine the Momentus lifestyle with persoanl prophesy...fits like a fist in a glove...suddenly spiders are coming out of noses and people's lives are shattered...
...and I can't help but pointing out the fact that these folks gave so much credence to Karen Anne Graeser (KAG)...
...I met her once at a large CES function 8 years ago...and she creeped me out. When she spoke, she seemed to be swept away into this emotional whirlwind of detached reality...she had "glassy eyes"...my own "spidey sense" was tingling.
...same thing for Mark Graeser. He was either grinning like a hyena or crying like a baby...they all seemed determined to correct all of VeePee's mistakes and take his place as the guardians of the "true word"...
They seemed ripe to go stumbling after new and improved doctrines...and they did.
...But I lost respect for them when they decided that the witch of Endor (KAG) was going to be the ultimate spiritual voice in their little cult...amazing they could allow this...bewitched?
Even when CES stopped openly endorsing Momentus (there was a lot of bad publicity regarding Momentus), they continued to practice the "Momentus lifestyle" of repentance and confrontation...( sticking their nose in everybody's business)...
I don't know when CES "stopped openly endorsing Momentus".....
But I do know that JAL has been promoting it as late as August 2006.
As sad as it is, these folks make the perfect "poster child" for the effects of momentus and personal prophecy.
Worse yet, they can't see it. Practically everybody else in the world finds something suspicious about this style of a glassy-eyed witch of Endor kind of shortcut to a supposed godly lifestyle of "biblical proportions".
And they don't see it for what it is.
So gullible.
So power hungry- like their "father"- looking for something they "don't have to back down on".
A few people here, myself included, have posted that some of the CES guys are beginning to wake up. That would equate with beginning to 'see it for what it is.'
No, they won't see everything instantly, nor will they ever see enough to satisfy some people...however, wouldn't it be Christian to at least speak accurately about them?
If you don't believe the posters who say that some of the CES folks are beginning to see, to repent and to change, call or email them yourself or just wait and see.....but if you had screwed up your life and you began to wake up, how would you want people to talk about you? Yes, more of your errors might be made public than you'd wish and you'd have to eat a lot of crow.....but would you rather hear, "He can't see it; he's power-hungry" or "He didn't used to be able to see it and seemed to be so power-hungry...I'm glad to hear he might be waking up"?
Haven't we been commanded to do unto others as we would have them do unto us?
Grace, I enjoy your posts very much. Your voice is one of reason and love, and I am very glad you have come here to Greasespot.
I do believe you and some of the other posters believe that some of the CES folks are repenting, and trying to change. I, however, do not trust them at their word. I do care, but it would be a waste for me to call or e-mail any of them. Their actions will show me if they are truly repentant, and that will take a very long time.
And if it was just their individual life that they screwed up, I might feel sorry for them. But they hurt many people, both in and out of CES. What I would really like to hear is, "I'm sorry." And if they are truly repentant, they will be the ones to extend their hands. It should not be up to us to demand an apology.
They haven't been for years and I doubt any of them ever will be again.
But I do trust some of them to love the same Lord I love and want to serve Him. So, when I was contacted recently and offered an apology, I was grateful and had no problem accepting it.
Since most of you, my new friends here at GS, are anonymous, you could have lived (and could still be living) in a manner that I would have no trust in either, yet I like chatting with you. So I expect to again like chatting with them when the time comes.
No, I won't trust them to be anyone whom I look to for any kind of spiritual advice (though JS and JL will always be good concordances), but I can trust them ...and all of you... to be children of God who need as much love and forgiveness as I do ..... and I can trust Jesus Who said that when I do something unto the least of them ...or you... I'm doing it unto Him...and I owe Him my every breath.
I believe the CES folks have much to learn in order to help God's people without also hurting them. And...if they never learn it....well, at least their harmful influence has for the large part ended.
There are too many of us now on the Wall to allow it to rise to anywhere near its former fervor.
And again, I thank you all here at GS for helping to bring this to pass!
We have just posted an article by Dr. John Juedes about CES and personal prophecy click here
I read John Juedes' 9 page article, with 1 page glossary and thought it was very good. He must have invested a great deal of time in researching and writing it and should be commended.
A few people here, myself included, have posted that some of the CES guys are beginning to wake up. That would equate with beginning to 'see it for what it is.'
What does THAT mean?
Will CES openly recant their personal prophesy doctrines?
Will CES openly recant their involvement with momentus?
Will CES openly admit to being led astray by devilish deceit?
Maybe these "leaders" should LISTEN to their followers!!!
Hi Skyrider, I was using Ham's terminology in my post, but now I'll use yours: they are beginning to listen o their followers (and, imo, more importantly to their ex-followers/friends who have been seeing and saying things for years). They are also beginning to apologize, person-to-person. It might not be as fast as some GSers would like, and some may pick apart my choice of words as I answer you this morning, but those of us still personally involved to some degree are blessed and thankful and willing to walk with them through however long it takes. The main beginning is that no more will an inner circle hurt the people it deals with. I've repeatedly said that public sin requires public repentance. It will take time, but at least they have begun (to use my words) to wake up...to many things. Your prayers would be appreciated.
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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dmiller
One would think so! ;)
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excathedra
rhino ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha i just got that ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Sushi
Just as an aside, for those who are looking elsewhere for 'spiritual' guidance without the religious overlay, might I recommend THIS book.
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pond
I honestly believe their attitude is one of being superior called of God. the definition is "the head of a religous community".
yes i think people are critical of how they live life and behaviours and I know they live off that, educate their children and theirself off that and travel off that.
they ask for the money, but think money doesnt cost anything in life.
it costs every person plenty.
they do not get that.
and when the toe must meet the line SUDDENLY they become a victim .
and satan must be attacking them.
shat we are all accoutable but them . because they are the superior. get over it , get a job answer to someone eles for a change!
oh heck no not that not EVER. none of them ever lived in submission to anyone.. mark G. had his own company and called the shots and both Johns have never left the ministry and living off the collection of people pleasing with a sermon.
this is NOT a well rounded life.
and the very last one to tell me how to run my own.
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excathedra
ps. can one make money exposing one's self ????
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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rhino
But I don't think MG could make a career of it. He better keep his pants on in public, and not try to show off to young ladies like VP allegedly did. :wacko: People aren't quite so forgiving these days.
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Sushi
Well, girls can, guys, not so much.
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Ham
True, Pond.. and they have self-appointed emmisaries ("prophets") to go before them, sounding a trumpet, boldly declaring their "apostleship".. practically threatening hell fire if you are among them who doubt.
At no place would you find JL saying he was an apostle. Why should he, when he has others that will do it for him? No reason to get his own hands dirty..
Nowhere have I seen jl deny it. No.. he's just an apostle by default.
The same tactic worked for vic as well. Send out special emmisaries to beat down the doubters and naysayers. Or simply allow them to do so. loy did the same thing in the nineties, but he made a few mistakes, he was just a little too obnoxious.
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WordWolf
BINGO.
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pawtucket
We have just posted an article by Dr. John Juedes about CES and personal prophecy click here
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likeaneagle
maybe, this should be posted in THe Soap Opera Thread..
2 women fighting who is right..?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Interesting article...
I think Juedes hits the nail on the head with these losers.
I recall vividly a situation (about 7 or 8 years ago)... where local CES leaders tried to gang up on a certain "believer" who didn't bow and scrap and was viewed as a trouble maker...they tried to pull off one of those "accountability" meetings with him, where they would drag all his sins out in the open for all to see...he was to confess his sins to the CES group.
I thought the whole thing stunk and told JAL as much...I also told them all what I thought of Momentus (where this doctrine came from)...
Personal prophesy my arse...they learned well from their "father in the word"...
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Ham
I wonder if they view momentus as some kind of "advanced class" in their curriculum. Only for da faithful, those who are "mature" enough to have come to the realization that they owe their very lives to da ministry..
I wonder what color of a name tag you get in the process.
When I hear the words "mature" or "ready", I get this sick feeling.
Would it be an honest assessment to state that all of the upper hierarchy in CES are momentus "grads"?
whoops.. wrong thread..
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hammer...I would guess that all of the top tier CESers are Momentus grads...perhaps with a few exceptions.
I don't view Momentus as the advanced class of CES, as much as I see it as a merger...a merger of thought...a merger of two conceptual components.
The "effectiveness" of the Momentus training prompted CES leaders to blend their theology as to be compatible with the Momentus training...
Even when CES stopped openly endorsing Momentus (there was a lot of bad publicity regarding Momentus), they continued to practice the "Momentus lifestyle" of repentance and confrontation...( sticking their nose in everybody's business)...
...Now, combine the Momentus lifestyle with persoanl prophesy...fits like a fist in a glove...suddenly spiders are coming out of noses and people's lives are shattered...
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and I can't help but pointing out the fact that these folks gave so much credence to Karen Anne Graeser (KAG)...
...I met her once at a large CES function 8 years ago...and she creeped me out. When she spoke, she seemed to be swept away into this emotional whirlwind of detached reality...she had "glassy eyes"...my own "spidey sense" was tingling.
...same thing for Mark Graeser. He was either grinning like a hyena or crying like a baby...they all seemed determined to correct all of VeePee's mistakes and take his place as the guardians of the "true word"...
They seemed ripe to go stumbling after new and improved doctrines...and they did.
...But I lost respect for them when they decided that the witch of Endor (KAG) was going to be the ultimate spiritual voice in their little cult...amazing they could allow this...bewitched?
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skyrider
I don't know when CES "stopped openly endorsing Momentus".....
But I do know that JAL has been promoting it as late as August 2006.
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Ham
As sad as it is, these folks make the perfect "poster child" for the effects of momentus and personal prophecy.
Worse yet, they can't see it. Practically everybody else in the world finds something suspicious about this style of a glassy-eyed witch of Endor kind of shortcut to a supposed godly lifestyle of "biblical proportions".
And they don't see it for what it is.
So gullible.
So power hungry- like their "father"- looking for something they "don't have to back down on".
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therebutforgrace
A few people here, myself included, have posted that some of the CES guys are beginning to wake up. That would equate with beginning to 'see it for what it is.'
No, they won't see everything instantly, nor will they ever see enough to satisfy some people...however, wouldn't it be Christian to at least speak accurately about them?
If you don't believe the posters who say that some of the CES folks are beginning to see, to repent and to change, call or email them yourself or just wait and see.....but if you had screwed up your life and you began to wake up, how would you want people to talk about you? Yes, more of your errors might be made public than you'd wish and you'd have to eat a lot of crow.....but would you rather hear, "He can't see it; he's power-hungry" or "He didn't used to be able to see it and seemed to be so power-hungry...I'm glad to hear he might be waking up"?
Haven't we been commanded to do unto others as we would have them do unto us?
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VeganXTC
Grace, I enjoy your posts very much. Your voice is one of reason and love, and I am very glad you have come here to Greasespot.
I do believe you and some of the other posters believe that some of the CES folks are repenting, and trying to change. I, however, do not trust them at their word. I do care, but it would be a waste for me to call or e-mail any of them. Their actions will show me if they are truly repentant, and that will take a very long time.
And if it was just their individual life that they screwed up, I might feel sorry for them. But they hurt many people, both in and out of CES. What I would really like to hear is, "I'm sorry." And if they are truly repentant, they will be the ones to extend their hands. It should not be up to us to demand an apology.
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therebutforgrace
Thanks, Vegan.
I too have lost trust in these folks.
To be my Christian 'leaders.'
They haven't been for years and I doubt any of them ever will be again.
But I do trust some of them to love the same Lord I love and want to serve Him. So, when I was contacted recently and offered an apology, I was grateful and had no problem accepting it.
Since most of you, my new friends here at GS, are anonymous, you could have lived (and could still be living) in a manner that I would have no trust in either, yet I like chatting with you. So I expect to again like chatting with them when the time comes.
No, I won't trust them to be anyone whom I look to for any kind of spiritual advice (though JS and JL will always be good concordances), but I can trust them ...and all of you... to be children of God who need as much love and forgiveness as I do ..... and I can trust Jesus Who said that when I do something unto the least of them ...or you... I'm doing it unto Him...and I owe Him my every breath.
I believe the CES folks have much to learn in order to help God's people without also hurting them. And...if they never learn it....well, at least their harmful influence has for the large part ended.
There are too many of us now on the Wall to allow it to rise to anywhere near its former fervor.
And again, I thank you all here at GS for helping to bring this to pass!
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Mark Sanguinetti
I read John Juedes' 9 page article, with 1 page glossary and thought it was very good. He must have invested a great deal of time in researching and writing it and should be commended.
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rich
Who is John Juedes?
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skyrider
What does THAT mean?
Will CES openly recant their personal prophesy doctrines?
Will CES openly recant their involvement with momentus?
Will CES openly admit to being led astray by devilish deceit?
Maybe these "leaders" should LISTEN to their followers!!!
<_<
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therebutforgrace
Hi Skyrider, I was using Ham's terminology in my post, but now I'll use yours: they are beginning to listen o their followers (and, imo, more importantly to their ex-followers/friends who have been seeing and saying things for years). They are also beginning to apologize, person-to-person. It might not be as fast as some GSers would like, and some may pick apart my choice of words as I answer you this morning, but those of us still personally involved to some degree are blessed and thankful and willing to walk with them through however long it takes. The main beginning is that no more will an inner circle hurt the people it deals with. I've repeatedly said that public sin requires public repentance. It will take time, but at least they have begun (to use my words) to wake up...to many things. Your prayers would be appreciated.
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