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I love Greasespot too....

Geez..........an Open forum filled with loads of information and helpful advice.

And............an About The Way forum to expose the ills, manipulation, etc. to move forward.

And............a Silly Forum for jokes and laughter and such.

And............a Doctrinal Forum to learn and debate in-depth topics.

And............a Prayer Room for personal requests for prayer.

And............a Friend Tracker forum. Thank you, thank you.

And............soooooo much more...!!

What some don't realize is that there is PLENTY OF DIVERSITY here. The forums, the people, the experiences, the open dialogue without leaving your cozy corner of computer-land.

Of course, it does expose lots of manipulation and exploitation by twi and its offshoots. And, some "spiritual leaders" might issue a blanket policy to stay off ex-way sites for self-serving reasons.

But geez............what's not to like if you're a pro-active person??

Thanks Paw. Happy New Year to you and thanks for keeping the doors open to Greasespot......helping hundreds (thousands??) who patronize your place.

Edited by skyrider

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well Ive been gone and just ( gag!!!!) read the letter, What a huge waste of my time, that guy after all these years still loves nothing more than to blather on and on and on and hear the sound of his own ..wonderful... voice even when it is contrary to all reality around him...What a cage of snakes.

Look John--We dont need a close in look, anyone -and I mean anyone, anywhere can tell from ten lightyears away that you have a mini little sub cult built around a handful of self promoting narcisists, that dont even have the know how to start their own cult but ride on the coattails of a slightly larger buffoon that came before them.. Do you think anyone is going to respect a man who sacrifices his own wife to wolves, andthen proclaims himself some sort of " minister ?

Maybe the PT Barnum in you will get someone somewhere to believe in your charlatanism - not me

Dont you think after playing this stupid game for over 30 years its time to come down off of your throne?

I will answer you if you have the courage and integrity to come here to this public forum and not hide behind your phony three dollar bill image.

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Although I have never been involved in CES/STF in any way, I do have some family and friends that are involved and I have contacted them about what I have learned here. None of them wanted to hear what is happening, especially regarding personal prophecy.

They have no respect for Greasespot. They feel we are a TWI offshoot whose sole purpose is to bad mouth anything TWI or TWI related, including other offshoots. When I explain to them we are not a like-minded group, but individuals that hold many different beliefs, some will listen, but not all.

Some feel the CES accusers have a hidden agenda. They were wronged in the past, or want more power.

I have read some of the documents to some CES followers. The most common response is that the CES leadership is right. (I don't understand how they can all be right if they can't agree with each other.) But there are some who are thinking about what is happening. Everyone I have contacted is praying about the situation.

By the way, when I contacted them, they had no knowledge of anything amiss happening in CES/STF.

Its pretty sad, and very frustrating.

Maybe you should print the letters out and send them. They were not written by Greasers but by CES leaders. Let them see what their leaders say..... Back in the day I sent Sheonheits' letter to everyone...

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Maybe you should print the letters out and send them. They were not written by Greasers but by CES leaders. Let them see what their leaders say..... Back in the day I sent Sheonheits' letter to everyone...

Drty Dzn told me the same thing. What's that saying about great minds? Thanks, Dot, I will.

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VEGAN wrote.....Some feel the CES accusers have a hidden agenda. They were wronged in the past, or want more power.

They might be right!

Does that mean that they, who say they care about CES, should dismiss every one of them with 1 blanket sweep of their hand?

If they are ever looking for a Dr. and remain consistent in their thinking, they will dismiss every one of them because some Doctors might have a hiddden agenda, have been passed over at another hospital in the past and now want more power.

If they are ever looking for a church and remain consistent in their thinking, they will dismiss every one of them because some Ministers might have a hidden agenda, having been fired from another church in the past and now want more power.

If they are ever thinking of owning their own business and remain consistent in their thinking, they will dismiss every employee because some might have a hidden agenda, having been wronged at a job in the past and now want more power.

Welcome to real life!

In Group-Think Life, however, out of fear the Leadership sets up the 'can't talk' rule, and out of fear the followers obey it. And, since fear often IS False-Evidence-Appearing-Real, what could it HURT to look at some real evidence?

CES ACCUSERS...to accuse with no details or proof is one thing. To accuse with many details and proof is another. Skepticism isn't evil, start with the second group.

WRONGED IN THE PAST... Every ministry has people who think they were wronged in the past. Ask your friend/family member to give you a number of how many examples he will need to be willing to consider that there might be something to consider.

WANT MORE POWER.....Who holds CES power now? BOD? President? Tier 1 Prophets? Office Manager? Ask how each is determined. Ask how many people are vying for each and then check each of them out to see if they could be 'CES accusers'.

Tell them that Joeoday (the closest we have to someone speaking for CES)...wrote....."They say that half the solution to a problem is asking the right question. I suggest you send them to a STF Board member. Dan is dan@stfonline.org. John S. is John@STfonline.org. I know that those two are really trying to straigthen this mess out."

A true supporter of any organization would want to help straighten out its messes if they could, and someone close to your friends'/family members' organization says this is the way to do it. Ask them if they will.

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To make something clear as I got a PM-

I did not personally hear from John - I am responding to his letter that was sent.

Not personal correspondence -- but to his general corespondence.

As we all are, I guess it read as if I heard from him. Nadda. Sorry, if it looked like that

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VEGAN wrote.....Some feel the CES accusers have a hidden agenda. They were wronged in the past, or want more power.

If they are ever thinking of owning their own business and remain consistent in their thinking, they will dismiss every employee because some might have a hidden agenda, having been wronged at a job in the past and now want more power.

WANT MORE POWER.....Who holds CES power now? BOD? President? Tier 1 Prophets? Office Manager? Ask how each is determined. Ask how many people are vying for each and then check each of them out to see if they could be 'CES accusers'.

(emphasis mine)

This goes back to my post about language and how it can affect behavior. This type of language is typically used in business, as opposed to (I think) in a "Christian Ministry". For example, I happen to work for a Tier 1 supplier to General Motors.

Now, as to the Tier One prophets. I don't know if Tier One is the highest or lowest level of prophet. For the sake of argument, let's say it's the highest. Wouldn't this then mean, there are other levels, Tier 2, 3.....etc.? Does this mean people are 'working' on getting their prophet 'certification'? What would the test look like? Is it a pass/fail? Or is 90-100 an A, and so on down the line?

Someone mentioned the old test (as in the Old Testament) for a prophet was pass/fail. Not only was it pass/fail, the penalty for failure was rather stiff. If memory serves, death was your grade. This was done so you didn't have to bring your report card back to your parents and have them sign off on it. :biglaugh:

Edited by Sushi

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Thanks again to everyone for their good advice. Its nice to know that there are people that care enough to want to help. :love3:

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Reading all the correspondence saddens me. Everyone says something different, the information that leaked out does not tell all of the story (how can it it is about personal stuff that should have been taken care of in-house, obviously there are some deep betrayals of confidentiality), and the replies on this site show the insanity of how it appears on the outside (obviously---who in their right mind would base a marriage on a picture of a woman with spiders).

I really think prayer is the best idea for all of this, but for me it's FROM A DISTANCE for my safety. When I was involved in CES there were too many toxic situations for me (not referring to board people that was not my experience but I'm just speaking from my expeience not disputing what anyone else has to say). The reason for my prayers is because these people are all still part of the body of Christ and I believe it is important for us to pray for those that hurt among us. I have my opinions but they could be wrong as I don't know the whole story so I'm holding in abeyance until things play out.

Happy New Year everyone!

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Freeone - this is not really specifically to you but to respond to the several posts about handling this internally / or privately / or giving people the benefit of the doubt until it's 'resolved' -

I agree that the situation needs a lot of prayer, but not that it should have been handled in house.

If you got a tape of the month on architecture and relied on the information of 'experts' you would be done an injustice if you didn't know that their last house had fallen down. These are not people quipping on the construction of their own house, but telling you, 'the way' you need to build 'your house' and often putting 'thus saith the Lord' on it.

I believe there are many 'thus saith the Lord' situations, but also that 'you will know them by their fruit.' Since these people involved in the letters are mainly known from afar and by their published works and programs it would be a strong injustice to withold the 'fruit report' from the rest who are seeking real answers to real problems and hoping to find someone who's really solving them.

When people take on positions of authority and ask you to come to marraige retreats and 'cultivating wholeness' sessions and read all about Godly conflict resolution in this latest pamphlet, they are making claims that they have some expertise in this area, and for lack of other evidence people generally believe them. If I do books and seminars on successful marraiges and have hundreds of affairs I can't really ask for respect to interally handle my 'private marital problems' because they're not really private - people need to know that my system didn't work for the author either.

CES has put it's name on a lot of programs and extra biblical material because they claimed it 'produced results.' So if we all just put down our Bibles and go to an Anthony Robbins seminar we can get results - but they probably have very little to do with Jesus, who can produce the only real results. I think the letters show that the results speak for themselves - you can still choose to go to as many seminars on Godly conflict resolution as you want, but now you can at least be informed on expected results.

For people who want to try and follow Jesus and the instructions in the Bible, there will always be these kinds of issues to deal with because you can't do it without people. When a problem like this that effects the 'core' comes up it needs to be exposed to light as soon as possible. Every time we 'try again' hopefully we learn to put Jesus more as the head and make less stupid decisions - I'd like to build a life where I never get burned by anyone, but then I'd probably be by myself! So if this is the path people want to try and be on it has it's risks and everyone that chooses to be involved takes responsibility in working through things, weeding the garden, providing extra water during the drought, and keeping the little foxes away.

I appreciate your reasoned tone, and your call for prayer is sound and what anyone concerned with any of these people can and should do. We probably can't do a lot to help them resolve it unless we're invited to, but we need to have the information to make smart decisions about what and how we support ministries and works. God can redeem anything - any person, any culture, any tribe or tongue that puts Him first, above books, tapes and mailing lists. God has redeemed plenty of ugliness in my own life and I have no doubt I will give him ample opportunity for more. I pray that the Lord is restored to His rightful place in this, that the division is solved in a 'real' way, and that bogus, religious systems of the enemy are cracked open and discarded like yesterdays trash.

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Hi freeone,

I'd like to add to what 1broken1 said -- which I agree with wholeheartedly. You said

"...the information that leaked out does not tell all of the story (how can it it is about personal stuff that should have been taken care of in-house..."
I hear this a lot when marriages are torn apart, "We're only hearing one side...it takes two to tango...." It casts doubt and suspicion on the one making the report. Now, I am sure that we haven't heard every detail, but that is not the point.

The point in this discussion is that CES/STFI has been using the dreams, visions, and interpretations of a prophetic council to guide the personal lives of its leadership, and to destroy relationships. This information has been brought to us in part by Jeff, who was posting pro-CES messages here long before this came up. Others have come forward with corroborating information, and indicated that others are also being injured by these "prophetic" utterances.

This isn't just about what happened between E. and JAL, but rather about CES/STFI policies and practices. Would you want your life and decisions to be dependent upon a prophetic council? Would you like to know if the leaders of your group operate this way, before you support such a group with your time, allegiance, or money?

And part of me just can't think of much that a woman could have done in her marriage to justify this systematic destruction of her reputation. And even if she had done something that heinous, I wouldn't think that a Christian organization (or its God) would resort to such an ungodly effort.

Lastly, you said that you would be "holding in abeyance" this story, since you don't know all the details. I recall that "hold in abeyance" is a TWI term. It does not appear anywhere in Scripture. Compare that term with Mary, who "kept all these things, and pondered in her heart" the visit by the shepherds at the manger.

Regards,

Shaz

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Just for a disclaimer on my posts--I don't claim to be biblical--just giving my opinion as someone who has had a little experience with CES! TWI totally turned me off with all the Bible fights we were forced to have with all the "horrible church people of the world." I like scripture but refuse to use it for anything but my personal life & helping people face to face.

When I used a the term "hold in abeyance" I was not meaning to say anything scriptural. I'm just waiting to see what plays out. I forgot we used that in TWI, I don't remember what it was for but now I remember the words--probably where I picked up the vocabulary--sorry guys!

As for the prophetic council being the base of decisions I cannot have an opinion there. I left before the prophetic council formed and was unaware of decisions being made based on prophecies. It was my understanding from before then that prophecies were to be considered (ie if someone gets a personal prophecy consider what is said and whether it rings true with what you know is going on in your life) but not as an end all. I never read the latest prophecy book. So I'm not up on the latest CES stuff. I've been too busy with other life stuff.

I also agree that email is not a really good communication tool either (I read a post somewhere about that and personally have experienced that--just words no tone of voice or seeing the person). However it is better than nothing so I'm glad we have it. Also for people like me it adds the element of safety (we can be anonymous).

I appreciate reading what everyone is saying. It really helps to get all the different perspectives.

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john (JAL) i think you're off your rocker

i cannot get over the karen anne prophecies.... the "deliverance sessions" or whateverthehelltheyare.... momentus crapola.... the victim nonsense.... on and on and on.... wow..... i thought the way ministry was bad

i'll say a little prayer for you

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I just wonder why these stupid letters like J.L's just HAVE to start with "God bless in in the vunderful name of da Lard"..

I haven't thought much of this before, but it HAS kind of bothered me.

Why can't they just get to the stinking point?

Instead they have to posture for position.

"'I' am STILL GODS MESSENGER in this little session.. you'd a do best to obey ME"

To use God's name in such a manner is kinda despicible.

I am not impressed, to say the least.

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john (JAL) i think you're off your rocker

i cannot get over the karen anne prophecies.... the "deliverance sessions" or whateverthehelltheyare.... momentus crapola.... the victim nonsense.... on and on and on.... wow..... i thought the way ministry was bad

i'll say a little prayer for you

LMAO :biglaugh:

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I am sending this email, with its attachment, to only a relatively few people at this time, each of whom I consider a committed stakeholder in our unique ministry.

stakeholder.... is that like frikkin dog soldier ???

i better stop for the moment..... i'm so tired.... i might leave my trap door open and all those spiders will come crawling in or out

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I just wonder why these stupid letters like J.L's just HAVE to start with "God bless in in the vunderful name of da Lard"..

Hammer...The reason "these guys" start their letters this way is because that's the way that the aposle Paul started his epistles...and we all know that "these guys" are SO much like Paul of Tarsus...except for the part about spiders crawling out of the nose... :evildenk:

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Come on! :) Stakeholder is an innocent term. Non-profits use it all the time. It means people with an interest in the organization's success. They include donors, clients and potential clients, and staff. There are others. But it really is an innocent term.

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Hammer...The reason "these guys" start their letters this way is because that's the way that the aposle Paul started his epistles...and we all know that "these guys" are SO much like Paul of Tarsus...except for the part about spiders crawling out of the nose...

Hey Groucho, I wonder when this little "gem" gets canonized, if they will call it "The First Epistle of J.L. to the Greasespots"

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You're right, Raf. And coming from someone as altruistic unselfish as JAL, I'm sure he's only looking out for what's best for the flock. :rolleyes:

According to them, Jonny, it's wrong to say the Lord's Prayer (vain repetition, ya know?). Maybe they need to do a teaching on what parts of Bible are okay to do and what parts aren't. :biglaugh:

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