So, let me get this straight:It is wrong to do anything at all in a manner that is found in the Bible. Okay, got it. Thanks.
I don't think so. Its just that.. somebody titling somthing this as some kinda epistle.. doesn't work with me anymore. I think its rather dispicable.
Anybody can name the name of Christ..
Just because somebody addresses something like this, am I supposed to jump up slobbering and "listen to the master's voice" like some Pavlovian response?
He may have had it once, but J.L. has lost my respect.
:P I get your point and, granted, it IS more snide and irrelevant to the main reasons this group is out there, but it IS annoying to some folks. Kind of like when people say, "God bless you, you're the best" or talk in other flowery, super sickly sweet over-the-top 'Christian' vernacular.
I think it's like it's kind of like when you start being friends with or dating someone - some things they do may be mildly annoying, but they become part of the full blown package when/if we end up in a fight with them:
"Yeah, well, besides beating the ever lovin' crap out of me every night when you get drunk... I don't like the way your feet stink either!" kind of thing.
having been away from my computer for nearly two weeks, there's no way i can respond to everything that's been written here. but i have to at least comment on the attacks on JAL. first of all, i have no stake in this thing. i'm not involved in STF, and in no way support it or their doctrines or practices. in fact, i'm completely opposed to lots of it, like the whole momentus thing, and think their position on "personal prophecy" is, at the very least, bullsh!t, and at worst, a horribly destructive means of controlling--and probably ruining--people's lives.
that said, i don't have the problems many do with john's letter. i think it's as honest as he could possibly be--given the constraints of his belief system. (meaning, i think many of his premises are flawed, so i don't agree with what he has to say. but i believe HE believes what he's saying to be the honest truth.) i think it's incredibly open, especially in light of the fact that he obviously knew it would be read by people outside the STF pale. from my perspective, it really goes above and beyond. he owes us nothing. we're not part of his thing. that he would make that level of detail available to outsiders says a great deal, in my opinion. so i don't know how people could fault his unwillingness to hang out at GSC and subject himself to what we all know would be quite the clusterf*ck. and hey, he left his phone number--which is infinitely more than i would do if i were in his shoes.
i do have others issues with things he said, but i think i'll address them in a separate thread.
I was PMed by someone saying it’d go easier on JAL/the BOD here at GSC if they were really honest.
But I agree with sprawled out ...I think [JAL's letter was] as honest as he could possibly be--given the constraints of his belief system. (meaning, i think many of his premises are flawed, so i don't agree with what he has to say. but i believe HE believes what he's saying to be the honest truth.)
I, too, believe JAL is stating what he honestly believes.......I, too, think he is incorrect, but error is not dishonesty.
Dishonesty...lying...is knowing it’s 10 a.m. and saying it’s 11....
Or....knowing it’s 10 a.m. and saying you don’t know what time it is.
Haven’t we been there? Saying (living!) something we entirely believed to be true...and later wanting to (and/or crawl in a hole) ‘cause we’ve seen how much of a lie it was?
Ignorance is one thing that allows me to speak honestly while speaking a lie.
Deception is another.
Deception allows me to think I'm doing God's will when I am not. Others can see I am not, so when I say that I am, they say I'm lying and /or trying to deceive them. I know I am not lying or trying to deceive them, so I say they’re wrong. .........And the beat goes on.....
Since so many of us have been there, we ought to be among the most compassionate. “To whom little is forgiven the same loveth little”....seems to mean that we who have been there and have been forgiven for being there ought to be one of the most compassionate groups JAL or any CES or TWI leader could come to. Oh, they won't get coddled here. That's not compassion. And the worse their deeds, the more they’ll hear! But we can have our goal be their restoration, and we can do it as Gal 6:1 says...in meekness, ‘cause we’ve been there and.......thanks to Adam......we could be there again.
Think about what actually helped you begin to see straight. Then offer the same to these brothers and sisters, not only those duped into following these lies, but duped into teaching them.
Personally, I pray that God gives them the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of HIM so that the eyes of their understanding will be enlightened...and they will know the PEACE and FREEDOM that comes with the HOPE that comes from knowing God’s ACTUAL calling on their lives... which may or may not be to lead or follow in CES.
I get your point and, granted, it IS more snide and irrelevant to the main reasons this group is out there, but it IS annoying to some folks. Kind of like when people say, "God bless you, you're the best" or talk in other flowery, super sickly sweet over-the-top 'Christian' vernacular.
I am just saying that if anyone here wants JAL to begin a dialogue in this forum and do some debating, he's probably not going to be too encouraged by the rudeness in such insignificant points like "how he provides salutations" in his letter. I f I were going to come here to debate a topic, I think that if I saw that, I would say; "Oh what's the use? I can't even get past "how to write a letter?"
Isn't there enough weirdness (like nose spiders) to focus on? It just seems like the sarcasm is so nit picky and out of line. I think that there is a ton of error to be address without snide comments...
Sorry to confuse you Jonny I was agreeing with your conclusion. If you look back on page 10 you will see that some took issue with the fact that when speaking about himself (as most would by the way) John used the word " I" . From that we leaped to the fact that somehow proved he was a know it all.
Ahh. I get it now. And, I want you all to know that I am under no illusion that "JAL" is on the right track, that he is walking in the purity of the love of God, and, I believe that his defense of this personal prophesy stuff is inane. I would never vote for that drivel, and would be long gone once I'd heard of it. I have never been involved, and never will.
But, I don't see why there can't be civility toward someone like JAL when he comes in here into what amounts to a very hostile environment for him. Yes, there are past issues that many here have with him, but, I just don't see any fruit from treating him rudely. I don't think he's been back, has he? I'd be surprised if he did come back.
Anyway, to stick to the doctrinal things, and the weird issues seems to be wiser than mocking his use of the phrase: "God bless you in the wonderful name of our living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", or the fact that he spoke in the first person in his letter. If you want to debate the larger points, it may benefit all here if you'll hold your tongues on the little ones. Anyway, now I am beating a point into the ground. And so, I'm done...
Thanks Jonny I agree and I am in no dilusions about John Lynn either. But your point is a good one and one I have often made also . Perhaps if it is made enough some will get it. When you have no credibility because of the fact that you make s**t up and do not speak truth, then people will not come here for any help either.
Anyway, to stick to the doctrinal things, and the weird issues seems to be wiser than mocking his use of the phrase: "God bless you in the wonderful name of our living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", or the fact that he spoke in the first person in his letter. If you want to debate the larger points, it may benefit all here if you'll hold your tongues on the little ones. Anyway, now I am beating a point into the ground.
Actually --I don't think you are *beating a point into the ground*.
Regardless of what one thinks of JAL, to pick words apart (such as have been),
is more childish than not (IMO), since it adds NOTHING to the discussion.
Sorry folks -- that's the way I feel. I'm here to learn.
I want to know what is happening, and I'm gleaning a few things here.
BUT --- I don't have time for BS -- regardless of where it comes from
(either Pro-CES --- or Anti-CES).
There -- I just put my heart out on my sleeve.
Rip it off, if you want to. I'm looking for facts, not innuendo.
If something substantive is offered -- I'll listen to/ read that.
Not nit-picking. Too much of that has happened in the past.
Perhaps this is a good lesson in learning to pick one's battles. I don't read these threads very much because they seen to be about 5 pages of arguing and gossip to every one page of informative posts and good points made.
I understand inserting some humor and making some comments - but what would be the motivation of anyone to come onto a board, enter a hostile situation, and then have every word picked apart. IMHO - if that is all you want to do - then just copy the letter, mark it all in red ink with your comments and corrections and innuendos, then just snail mail the thing to JAL.
Suppose "we" take the salient points of the letter and deal with them. I have yet to read the whole thing just because I lost interest. However, you get someone to break the letter down into the major points, talk about the substance of the letter; then move on.
I know that its a lot more fun to ridicule JAL -and if that's what you want to do - fine. Just don't then turn around and complain that he's not taking the GSC community seriously. May I suggest that if you really want to engage him in a dialogue, that you start a separate thread for all the nasty comments to JAL (JAL Love HIm or Hate Him? Here's Your Chance) and then leave a thread like this open for serious dialogue.
Okay......before you guys "pick words apart".....please note THE CONTEXT of my post that Whitedove has noted from page 10.
And....here is another way to read JAL's statement:
...the reason I remain committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the 'package' we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it...
Notice......no mention of God or being lead/guided/called to help others
But.........."the package" is the best deal going.
Same song and dance, different band playing [to know all the answers].
Sure, I could have elaborated on my points.......but I didn't. :)
So, let me further explain.
Point #1
This is one of the core issues of JAL's position paper.
"..........the reason I remain committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the 'package' we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it..."
Notice..........No mention of God or being lead/guided/called to help others.
This isn't some side conversation involving JAL........it's a lengthy position paper. IMO, it's very telling of the JAL personality. Of course, I see Whitedove's point about it "being in the singular because John is the one speaking........but, to me, it gives a deeper glimpse into JAL's core beliefs, or stance. And, like I noted in my bullet statement.......NO MENTION OF GOD (or His spirit) or ministering to others in this "position paper."
Point #2
But........."the package" is the best deal going.
Again, to me........it's very telling how this new and improved version of twi NOW has "the package." Call me skeptical or call me nit-picky, but I just don't buy it.
Point #3
Same song and dance, different band playing.............in other words, this is now THE ORGANIZATION that is carrying the torch to light the path. Simply put......I just don't believe God sanctifies an organization's "packaged deal" [or accepting a class formatted presentation].
Hope this helps put my post and position in CONTEXT.
I know that its a lot more fun to ridicule JAL -and if that's what you want to do - fine. Just don't then turn around and complain that he's not taking the GSC community seriously. May I suggest that if you really want to engage him in a dialogue, that you start a separate thread for all the nasty comments to JAL (JAL Love HIm or Hate Him? Here's Your Chance) and then leave a thread like this open for serious dialogue.
Sheeeeeeeeesh! You're all smarter than this.
Dooj,
I don't think we can really control who says what on which thread or the way in which they choose to say it. Certainly we can disagree with someone regarding the tone or the substance of which they have spoken, but to tell people what they can or can't say because we might not like it or agee with it is not going to happen.
I, for one, have no interest in whether JL takes this place seriously.
Also, I have not noticed anyone engaging him in dialogue because he has chosen not to come here openly. Some believe he certainly does read and post here and is anonymous. Whether that is true remains to be seem--or not. No one is expected to reveal his or her identity in order to post.
Agreed WB, John Lynn has never had the courage to dialogue with any other than those who agree with him.
He insults and dismisses real live flesh and blood people whom all have valid pov, salient advice and valuable perception to offer. He completely eliminates the need to consider the fact that he was dead wrong by dismissing us as anonymous internet folks.
He refuses to dialogue with anyone who doesn`t buy into his *package*
Number one, we are as valued to God as he, whether his reverend self recognises our names or not.
Number two, He will never be able to fix what is wrong if he will only talk with the people who tell him what he wants to hear, how he wants to hear it, when he thinks he wants to hear it.
When you believe that you are right, you just wont make the changes necessary.
I know that its a lot more fun to ridicule JAL -and if that's what you want to do - fine. Just don't then turn around and complain that he's not taking the GSC community seriously. May I suggest that if you really want to engage him in a dialogue, that you start a separate thread for all the nasty comments to JAL (JAL Love HIm or Hate Him? Here's Your Chance) and then leave a thread like this open for serious dialogue.
I would go a step further and suggest that if anyone wants to engage him in a dialogue, call him on the telephone. He made that available so what's stopping some of you?
Here's a chance for you to give JAL a piece of your mind, dang it!
I still think the nature of his letter, and the seriousness of the subject DEMAND public scrutiny and debate.
Considering the long standing problems, it is obvious that controlled private little discussions have done little if anything.
What's he afraid of? That somebody might hurt his feelings?
Afraid of being embarrassed?
Afraid of giving the Lord a black eye in public? Sorry, I think he's already done that with the LITTLE we know about.
Maybe he doesn't have the faith in his package that he thinks he has. Perhaps deep down he feels it wouldn't survive five minutes of public scrutiny and REAL debate.
Same for the some of the other yahoos running that place.
I think they are afraid to see their "baby" exposed to the light of day.
Agreed WB, John Lynn has never had the courage to dialogue with any other than those who agree with him.
He insults and dismisses real live flesh and blood people whom all have valid pov, salient advice and valuable perception to offer. He completely eliminates the need to consider the fact that he was dead wrong by dismissing us as anonymous internet folks.
He refuses to dialogue with anyone who doesn`t buy into his *package*
Number one, we are as valued to God as he, whether his reverend self recognises our names or not.
Number two, He will never be able to fix what is wrong if he will only talk with the people who tell him what he wants to hear, how he wants to hear it, when he thinks he wants to hear it.
When you believe that you are right, you just wont make the changes necessary.
It is called arrogance....shrug
And further...........one of my close friends, who has attended several CES meetings, has told JAL three times that he is NOT INTERESTED in momentus/deliverance group sessions. In spite of these face-to-face refusals, JAL persists in trying to convince him otherwise.
Some might call it manipulation, others might call it bullying.........whatever, its JAL trying to cross personal boundaries and subject this groupthink crap into another's life.
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Ham
I don't think so. Its just that.. somebody titling somthing this as some kinda epistle.. doesn't work with me anymore. I think its rather dispicable.
Anybody can name the name of Christ..
Just because somebody addresses something like this, am I supposed to jump up slobbering and "listen to the master's voice" like some Pavlovian response?
He may have had it once, but J.L. has lost my respect.
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Belle
:P I get your point and, granted, it IS more snide and irrelevant to the main reasons this group is out there, but it IS annoying to some folks. Kind of like when people say, "God bless you, you're the best" or talk in other flowery, super sickly sweet over-the-top 'Christian' vernacular.
I think it's like it's kind of like when you start being friends with or dating someone - some things they do may be mildly annoying, but they become part of the full blown package when/if we end up in a fight with them:
"Yeah, well, besides beating the ever lovin' crap out of me every night when you get drunk... I don't like the way your feet stink either!" kind of thing.
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Ham
Some of the most abusive, accusatory, hateful letters I've seen start with those nice words..
"God bless you brother, now I'm gonna beat the snot out of you"
hypocrites.
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Ham
I really expected better out of him..
Instead, its the same posturing.. same "Its the devil's fault".. "better stick with us, because its us against da debil"..
Can't teach an old MOG new tricks I guess..
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sprawled out
having been away from my computer for nearly two weeks, there's no way i can respond to everything that's been written here. but i have to at least comment on the attacks on JAL. first of all, i have no stake in this thing. i'm not involved in STF, and in no way support it or their doctrines or practices. in fact, i'm completely opposed to lots of it, like the whole momentus thing, and think their position on "personal prophecy" is, at the very least, bullsh!t, and at worst, a horribly destructive means of controlling--and probably ruining--people's lives.
that said, i don't have the problems many do with john's letter. i think it's as honest as he could possibly be--given the constraints of his belief system. (meaning, i think many of his premises are flawed, so i don't agree with what he has to say. but i believe HE believes what he's saying to be the honest truth.) i think it's incredibly open, especially in light of the fact that he obviously knew it would be read by people outside the STF pale. from my perspective, it really goes above and beyond. he owes us nothing. we're not part of his thing. that he would make that level of detail available to outsiders says a great deal, in my opinion. so i don't know how people could fault his unwillingness to hang out at GSC and subject himself to what we all know would be quite the clusterf*ck. and hey, he left his phone number--which is infinitely more than i would do if i were in his shoes.
i do have others issues with things he said, but i think i'll address them in a separate thread.
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therebutforgrace
I was PMed by someone saying it’d go easier on JAL/the BOD here at GSC if they were really honest.
But I agree with sprawled out ...I think [JAL's letter was] as honest as he could possibly be--given the constraints of his belief system. (meaning, i think many of his premises are flawed, so i don't agree with what he has to say. but i believe HE believes what he's saying to be the honest truth.)
I, too, believe JAL is stating what he honestly believes.......I, too, think he is incorrect, but error is not dishonesty.
Dishonesty...lying...is knowing it’s 10 a.m. and saying it’s 11....
Or....knowing it’s 10 a.m. and saying you don’t know what time it is.
Haven’t we been there? Saying (living!) something we entirely believed to be true...and later wanting to
(and/or crawl in a hole) ‘cause we’ve seen how much of a lie it was?
Ignorance is one thing that allows me to speak honestly while speaking a lie.
Deception is another.
Deception allows me to think I'm doing God's will when I am not. Others can see I am not, so when I say that I am, they say I'm lying and /or trying to deceive them. I know I am not lying or trying to deceive them, so I say they’re wrong. .........And the beat goes on.....
Since so many of us have been there, we ought to be among the most compassionate. “To whom little is forgiven the same loveth little”....seems to mean that we who have been there and have been forgiven for being there ought to be one of the most compassionate groups JAL or any CES or TWI leader could come to. Oh, they won't get coddled here. That's not compassion. And the worse their deeds, the more they’ll hear! But we can have our goal be their restoration, and we can do it as Gal 6:1 says...in meekness, ‘cause we’ve been there and.......thanks to Adam......we could be there again.
Think about what actually helped you begin to see straight. Then offer the same to these brothers and sisters, not only those duped into following these lies, but duped into teaching them.
Personally, I pray that God gives them the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of HIM so that the eyes of their understanding will be enlightened...and they will know the PEACE and FREEDOM that comes with the HOPE that comes from knowing God’s ACTUAL calling on their lives... which may or may not be to lead or follow in CES.
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J0nny Ling0
I am just saying that if anyone here wants JAL to begin a dialogue in this forum and do some debating, he's probably not going to be too encouraged by the rudeness in such insignificant points like "how he provides salutations" in his letter. I f I were going to come here to debate a topic, I think that if I saw that, I would say; "Oh what's the use? I can't even get past "how to write a letter?"
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WhiteDove
Well Jonny what do you expect from people that had to debate what his motive for using I was when speaking in first person?
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J0nny Ling0
Sorry WD, that question is not quite clear to me. Could you re-state it? I am a little too simple at times...
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dmiller
There -- I rephrased the questiion for you Jonny.
Hope that one makes sense. :)
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WhiteDove
Sorry to confuse you Jonny I was agreeing with your conclusion. If you look back on page 10 you will see that some took issue with the fact that when speaking about himself (as most would by the way) John used the word " I" . From that we leaped to the fact that somehow proved he was a know it all.
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J0nny Ling0
Ahh. I get it now. And, I want you all to know that I am under no illusion that "JAL" is on the right track, that he is walking in the purity of the love of God, and, I believe that his defense of this personal prophesy stuff is inane. I would never vote for that drivel, and would be long gone once I'd heard of it. I have never been involved, and never will.
But, I don't see why there can't be civility toward someone like JAL when he comes in here into what amounts to a very hostile environment for him. Yes, there are past issues that many here have with him, but, I just don't see any fruit from treating him rudely. I don't think he's been back, has he? I'd be surprised if he did come back.
Anyway, to stick to the doctrinal things, and the weird issues seems to be wiser than mocking his use of the phrase: "God bless you in the wonderful name of our living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", or the fact that he spoke in the first person in his letter. If you want to debate the larger points, it may benefit all here if you'll hold your tongues on the little ones. Anyway, now I am beating a point into the ground. And so, I'm done...
Thanks White Dove and DMiller...
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WhiteDove
Thanks Jonny I agree and I am in no dilusions about John Lynn either. But your point is a good one and one I have often made also . Perhaps if it is made enough some will get it. When you have no credibility because of the fact that you make s**t up and do not speak truth, then people will not come here for any help either.
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dmiller
Actually --I don't think you are *beating a point into the ground*.
Regardless of what one thinks of JAL, to pick words apart (such as have been),
is more childish than not (IMO), since it adds NOTHING to the discussion.
Sorry folks -- that's the way I feel. I'm here to learn.
I want to know what is happening, and I'm gleaning a few things here.
BUT --- I don't have time for BS -- regardless of where it comes from
(either Pro-CES --- or Anti-CES).
There -- I just put my heart out on my sleeve.
Rip it off, if you want to. I'm looking for facts, not innuendo.
If something substantive is offered -- I'll listen to/ read that.
Not nit-picking. Too much of that has happened in the past.
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doojable
Perhaps this is a good lesson in learning to pick one's battles. I don't read these threads very much because they seen to be about 5 pages of arguing and gossip to every one page of informative posts and good points made.
I understand inserting some humor and making some comments - but what would be the motivation of anyone to come onto a board, enter a hostile situation, and then have every word picked apart. IMHO - if that is all you want to do - then just copy the letter, mark it all in red ink with your comments and corrections and innuendos, then just snail mail the thing to JAL.
Suppose "we" take the salient points of the letter and deal with them. I have yet to read the whole thing just because I lost interest. However, you get someone to break the letter down into the major points, talk about the substance of the letter; then move on.
I know that its a lot more fun to ridicule JAL -and if that's what you want to do - fine. Just don't then turn around and complain that he's not taking the GSC community seriously. May I suggest that if you really want to engage him in a dialogue, that you start a separate thread for all the nasty comments to JAL (JAL Love HIm or Hate Him? Here's Your Chance) and then leave a thread like this open for serious dialogue.
Sheeeeeeeeesh! You're all smarter than this.
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excathedra
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skyrider
Okay......before you guys "pick words apart".....please note THE CONTEXT of my post that Whitedove has noted from page 10.
Sure, I could have elaborated on my points.......but I didn't. :)
So, let me further explain.
Point #1
This is one of the core issues of JAL's position paper.
"..........the reason I remain committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the 'package' we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it..."
Notice..........No mention of God or being lead/guided/called to help others.
This isn't some side conversation involving JAL........it's a lengthy position paper. IMO, it's very telling of the JAL personality. Of course, I see Whitedove's point about it "being in the singular because John is the one speaking........but, to me, it gives a deeper glimpse into JAL's core beliefs, or stance. And, like I noted in my bullet statement.......NO MENTION OF GOD (or His spirit) or ministering to others in this "position paper."
Point #2
But........."the package" is the best deal going.
Again, to me........it's very telling how this new and improved version of twi NOW has "the package." Call me skeptical or call me nit-picky, but I just don't buy it.
Point #3
Same song and dance, different band playing.............in other words, this is now THE ORGANIZATION that is carrying the torch to light the path. Simply put......I just don't believe God sanctifies an organization's "packaged deal" [or accepting a class formatted presentation].
Hope this helps put my post and position in CONTEXT.
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Belle
Do we have a "spanking" smiley somewhere?
ex, it's good to see my favorite avatar of yours back on the screen.
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waterbuffalo
Dooj,
I don't think we can really control who says what on which thread or the way in which they choose to say it. Certainly we can disagree with someone regarding the tone or the substance of which they have spoken, but to tell people what they can or can't say because we might not like it or agee with it is not going to happen.
I, for one, have no interest in whether JL takes this place seriously.
Also, I have not noticed anyone engaging him in dialogue because he has chosen not to come here openly. Some believe he certainly does read and post here and is anonymous. Whether that is true remains to be seem--or not. No one is expected to reveal his or her identity in order to post.
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rascal
Agreed WB, John Lynn has never had the courage to dialogue with any other than those who agree with him.
He insults and dismisses real live flesh and blood people whom all have valid pov, salient advice and valuable perception to offer. He completely eliminates the need to consider the fact that he was dead wrong by dismissing us as anonymous internet folks.
He refuses to dialogue with anyone who doesn`t buy into his *package*
Number one, we are as valued to God as he, whether his reverend self recognises our names or not.
Number two, He will never be able to fix what is wrong if he will only talk with the people who tell him what he wants to hear, how he wants to hear it, when he thinks he wants to hear it.
When you believe that you are right, you just wont make the changes necessary.
It is called arrogance....shrug
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oldiesman
I would go a step further and suggest that if anyone wants to engage him in a dialogue, call him on the telephone. He made that available so what's stopping some of you?
Here's a chance for you to give JAL a piece of your mind, dang it!
Get some guts for a change.
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Ham
I still think the nature of his letter, and the seriousness of the subject DEMAND public scrutiny and debate.
Considering the long standing problems, it is obvious that controlled private little discussions have done little if anything.
What's he afraid of? That somebody might hurt his feelings?
Afraid of being embarrassed?
Afraid of giving the Lord a black eye in public? Sorry, I think he's already done that with the LITTLE we know about.
Maybe he doesn't have the faith in his package that he thinks he has. Perhaps deep down he feels it wouldn't survive five minutes of public scrutiny and REAL debate.
Same for the some of the other yahoos running that place.
I think they are afraid to see their "baby" exposed to the light of day.
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Ham
You can tell he was "trained by the best"..
Never engage in public debate.
Ever see vic in a debate? Or loy? I remember Loy giving a guy the "bums rush" before he got two whole sentences out of his mouth.
Try to get folks off on their own, put out the little fires everywhere around you.
Don't call him, all you get is a blanket message "read my book".
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skyrider
And further...........one of my close friends, who has attended several CES meetings, has told JAL three times that he is NOT INTERESTED in momentus/deliverance group sessions. In spite of these face-to-face refusals, JAL persists in trying to convince him otherwise.
Some might call it manipulation, others might call it bullying.........whatever, its JAL trying to cross personal boundaries and subject this groupthink crap into another's life.
JAL refuses to hear the word "no".........
JAL has one agenda to fulfill..........his own.
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