Sheesh EP, every time you post you make CES sound just like TWI!
In TWI it was Worse to be unforgiving(ooo, bitter!) and Speak up about a problem where believers were being hurt than to be the leader who was hurting the believers.
Basically, you're saying shut up and take it, They're the men of GAWD so it's necessary for the movement of the word that You Shut Up and Forgive!
Hey undone, why are you offended with folks here? Is it because we talk about what these people did to us?
It sometimes feels like folks get more angry at us for telling what happened than the perpetrators who assaulted us.
I don`t understand why the people who merely report the abuse are treated with such venom and and accusations, while love and respect are reserved for the perpetrators of the evil....sigh
Your mad at the wrong guys people.
Rascal,
Sorry if you thought I was treating you or anyone with venom. IMO and in my observation I
feel there is sometimes a personal attack on some who offer a different opinion. I can see a little of
EP's heart in his post's. I don't necessarily agree with all of them but I do believe he has a pure heart.
I just thought I'd send him an "atta boy" to maybe brighten his day. Not looking for a fight.
PS For any and all who have been hurt by twi and/or ces/stf I pray that your hearts will be mended and
for some that you can learn to trust again. Bless you all.......
hmmm....as i said, Esty, you should poke around this forum a bit if you have a problem with my characterization of ol' vp. what i said was both direct and and accusation. nothing evil about it, if it's true.
Cool, thanks for understanding undone, I wasn`t meaning just you in particular. Gosh, I don`t want EP to feel picked on either. It probably feels that way, but it really isn`t personal.
I have been reading wolf and these other folks for quite some time. The information presented can feel overwhelming, like an attack, but it isn`t an attack of the person, it is of ideas and thought patterns that sometime we don`t even realise are affecting our judgement.
I thought that if EP could re read what wolf and some of these folks have written without being so angry, he/she might be able to consider the merit of the information that was being presented.
I know, it is damned hard to have to come to grips with what really happened in twi.
I am sure that if EP and others were aware of what happened to so many of us directly at vp/lcm/leaders hands in twi, they would no doubt understand the outrage we personally feel when the carnage is blythly referred to as being *minimal*.
That was spoke like a true cult member. Lets see I died but you learned pp how great that was.
I don't know who said it but i'm thankful i'm not part of that family.
Who ever wrote this i'd like to hear if you could share scripture with me? I'd like to see how all that wonderful wisdom dw and jl taught you covered what you said.
Are you still on the bus waiting for vp and jl to show up?
That was spoke like a true cult member. Lets see I died but you learned pp how great that was.
I don't know who said it but i'm thankful i'm not part of that family.
Who ever wrote this i'd like to hear if you could share scripture with me? I'd like to see how all that wonderful wisdom dw and jl taught you covered what you said.
Are you still on the bus waiting for vp and jl to show up?
Mercy.
I'm on the bus of Jesus Christ, and if you will believe that it might drive away the contention and cofusion.
" Therefore we do not lose heart,
but though our outer man is decaying,
yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
For momentary, light affliction
is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison"
IICor 4:16,17
I know the affliction is an awful thing to experience,
but the Word of God is clear ( regardless of VP, JL or anyone's contrary opinion)
the affliction is minimal or "light."
Rich,
Your rejection of me, " I'm glad you're not in my family"
and your insult , " a true cult member"
is the latest in a series of afflictions made upon me.
But comparing that with all the edifying posts you've made, its really no big deal.
Cool, thanks for understanding undone, I wasn`t meaning just you in particular. Gosh, I don`t want EP to feel picked on either. It probably feels that way, but it really isn`t personal.
I have been reading wolf and these other folks for quite some time. The information presented can feel overwhelming, like an attack, but it isn`t an attack of the person, it is of ideas and thought patterns that sometime we don`t even realise are affecting our judgement.
I thought that if EP could re read what wolf and some of these folks have written without being so angry, he/she might be able to consider the merit of the information that was being presented.
I know, it is damned hard to have to come to grips with what really happened in twi.
I am sure that if EP and others were aware of what happened to so many of us directly at vp/lcm/leaders hands in twi, they would no doubt understand the outrage we personally feel when the carnage is blythly referred to as being *minimal*.
Rascal,
I'm way beyond being angry.
I just see a vicious cycle going on of outrage begetting more outrage.
Now people I would have thought knew much better are hiring attorneys
to express their outrage more articulately and officially.
I am convinced that it all stops at the cross,
and that the newness of life and peace awaits on the other side.
See II Cor 5 or IPeter4 or Phil 3.
There is a place called "sharing the sufferings of Christ" that we don't want to go to,
but it is a place where an intimacy with the Savior is found that is incredibly sweet.
It's a place I pray Elizabeth Lynn has found, and everyone else who has been afflicted,
because it is the only place where one can find genuine healing
hmmm....as i said, Esty, you should poke around this forum a bit if you have a problem with my characterization of ol' vp. what i said was both direct and and accusation. nothing evil about it, if it's true.
you need to do your homework, my friend.
You know I always hated doing home work SO.
And I acknowledge that I was making a direct acusation when I accused you of making a direct accusation.
Naturally I don't think mine was evil....but I could be wrong.
I don't deny that your words are valid regarding VP.
I believe they describe his old , sinful nature.
My words were describing the new , Christlike nature of Dr W.
They are valid as well, and much more enduring.
I have learned to appreciate the manifestation of the "Real You" or the Christ within.
I try to be patient with the "old man" encounters,
but I encourage all of us to put on the mind of Christ and walk in his ways.
and " That's where its at, if you want to believe it"
as Jerry said to the violent protestors in Canada while on The Festval Express
" ...better take Jesus with you..."
( see the movie if you want to observe pathologically anti-authoritarianism)
Sheesh EP, every time you post you make CES sound just like TWI!
In TWI it was Worse to be unforgiving(ooo, bitter!) and Speak up about a problem where believers were being hurt than to be the leader who was hurting the believers.
Basically, you're saying shut up and take it, They're the men of GAWD so it's necessary for the movement of the word that You Shut Up and Forgive!
That, in my view, is Christianity at its ugliest.
Sheesh Bramble.
You're missing the point.
let me put it like Don Hendley,
" it's time to get down
to the heart of the matter,
because the flesh is weak
and the ashes will scatter but I think it's about
FORGIVENESS..."
But please do speak up,
I think the sinful actions of Christian Overseers is especially diabolically disgraceful.
I think it's kinda like watching a wolf ripping through the same flock, time and time again.. the devil sits back, laughing.. "have at it boy, I'll keep taking the heat.."
Malcolm Smith said once a lady asked him to kick a lieing spirit out of her.
He told her he was sorry, but she had a much bigger problem.
That it would be very easy to call upon the little finger of God and drive the demon away.
It reminds me of the differences listed in galatians between those of the flesh and those of the spirit. I hvae no respect for those who chose to act as if they are *of the flesh* with *no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven*
I am sorry, I just don`t have any respect for them.
I think Galations speaks very loudly concerning the crisis at CES.
I know my posts sound like I think everything's hunky dory,
but I don't.
I truely abhor that which is Evil.
I think Galations 6 thuders when it says
" God is not Mocked,
as a man sows so shall he reap"
( my paraphrase)
but we are also called to recover those who are caught in the snare of sin
to reach out in "the spirit of meekness" to help restore them.
That is fair enough EP. Sometimes it is hard to read and understand one another in this type of forum. What bothered me about what you said was that the damage was minimal. Surely you are aware that some of the folks that are reading you here, were victims of being drugged and raped by vp and his leaders?
There are people reading this thread who were forced to have abortions in order to stay within the will of God, that there are several of us who had friends that were grievously injured and some of them died while following orders from twi leaders?
I am sorry that you were grievously hurt as well.
It is hardly *minimal damage* to those whom suffered these things. It still is as painfully vivid today as it was 25 years ago when it happened.
I think that was the statement that I had a problem with. To minimalise the horror suffered, is to dismiss the evil....it makes it sound like the people who died, the pain that we suffered, the children lost do not matter, are unimportant.
To me, and you may correct me if I am mistaken ep, but when someone (not you but twi leaders) minimalises the horror and evil that was inflicted on trusting souls, the people that were in their care as ministers...it is usually an attempt to minimalise ones guilt and assuage one own conscience. To me, it conveniently dismisses the need to repent and seek the forgivness of the brother that has been wronged.
To me, the people who would deliberatly harm our innocent brothers and sisters in Christ to satisfy the lusts of their flesh....are despicable. I detest them for their betrayal of our pure hearts and selfless service to God. Their abuse of trusting souls, of women, of children, angers me greatly.
That they took what we willingly gave in service to God and used it for evil and to cause great harm. I do not understand not being angry at people who chose to be so vile.
Estimated Prophet, can you see how the people who used their positions of power and authority to steal from and cause harm to God`s people would to me seem to be no better than the Pharisees that Jesus so detested?
He called them *whited sepelchers* pretty on the outside but filled with decay and disease on the inside? He said Woe unto them...I never once read of him asking people to forgive and be nice to them.
Can you see why it would be hard for me to have any respect for the enormous harm that the religious leaders in our time did to so many trusting souls?
Why was it all right for Jesus to condemn the leaders who hurt God`s people back then and not right for us to hold the same contempt for the evil ones who came to *steal, kill, and destroy* from people seeking God in this day and age?
It just simply cannot be considered *minimal* ...nothing can be considered worth it....
The verse comes to mind about the shepherd leaving the 99 sheep to hunt and rescue the single lost. In the parable, he didn`t weigh in the balances and decide if it was worth it to leave the other 99.....the single lost sheep was worth the supreme sacrafice.
I am glad that you are willing to dialogue with us here E.P. there is much that can be learned from one another, as I believe each here has learned a great deal in their hourny since leaving twi.
E.P. I have a question for you to consider. Pleas believe me when I say that I do not want to offend you unnecessarily.
You mentioned the *Christ like nature of vp* ...have you ever considered that given his proclivity to rampant adultery, the drunkeness, the lying, the stealing, the rape, the strife, the anger, the sulleness, the envyings...in short everything Galatians describes as a *man of the flesh who has no inheritance in the kingdom of God*?
I mean, I ask what exactly in vpw`s life would indicate that he WASN`T a false prophet, a wolf in sheeps clothing, the man of the flesh that galatians warned us about? I mean yeah, he taught scripture, but so did Jim Jones and David Koresche.
I mean I am wondering if you are giving him respect as a brother in Christ which he is not due...and applying a standard that is not applicable to those whom deliberately harm God`s people.
It is a lot to consider, but it might make sense when you think about how when Jesus told his desciples that they would recognise one another by their *fruit* There must have been more to it than what lable you placed on your chest or how many scriptures that one could quote.
I just do not see how a loving God could have led us to a place where we would learn some knowledge, but some of us were going to be raped and others murdered as part of the price paid for the rest to recieve the knowledge.
It would make sense though if we had been decieved, if we had fallen into a snare that had been cleverly disguised such as is described in proverbs.
The fact that the ministry imploded, and the offshoots are struggling with people still being hurt and disgarded might be an indication that the foundation that we built based on the teachings and scriptures we learned in twi might be considered a shaky foundation, not of rock, but on sand....a foundation that appears to have been crumbling, thus rendering the structures built upon them unsound as well.
I think the sinful actions of Christian Overseers is especially diabolically disgraceful.
really
Yeah, I'm missing the point. But then I'm not Christian and don't see the whole forgiveness doctrine like you do, or the "Light" afflictions doctrine, either.
I'll say it again. I think there are many many people, plain ordinary people, who have not gone around causing great damage to others.
I have far greater respect for those ordinary people who lived ordinary lives being decent people, good friends and loving parents than I do for great church leaders with all the super de dooper doctrine who leave a wake of damaged lives behind them.
So what ever you position is in all this, I obviously haven't gotten it. You seem to flip around.
I guess it is some kind of change your life, turn to Jesus, all eternity is what counts type message.
I think you are confusing forgiveness, and common sense. According to Mark Twain, a cat burned sitting on a hot stove, will not sit on it again. You can yell at the cat, telling it how evil it is, how unloving it is to exclude the hot stove from full sharing in its life.
But despite passionate pleas for love and forgiveness, and to let go of its "negative" painful "baggage" in its memory, it just won't listen.
Oh, the pain...
So, ignoring the fact that those who supposedly have "da power" are living a broken life, not unlike the rest of us, have the same bodily functions, and put their pants on the same way in the morning, despite the claims, promises, and innuendo otherwise, let's just put down our "differences", and set upon the stove once again..
Ham,
Actually I got off the stove three years ago.
I think you're confusing forgiveness with denial.
I never denied anything is wrong, but I have forgiven the wrongdoers
rather than setting out to teach them a lewson by setting their pants on fire.
I will do whatever I can to bring an end to evil. And I do it by remembering to direct my anger ---not to ANY guys...not to any people.....but to the SOURCE--God's enemy, Satan. I then engage my weapons that are not carnal but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds (lies we humans believe and therefore act on)....and Christ gets the vicotry and the glory!
If those who hurt people do not repent privately, speaking the truth to them becomes more public--and those of us who hear about it can stand with those actually involved in it by remembering that we don't beat evil by becoming like it....and by remembering that the GOAL is Repentance...so there is change...so evil ends.
This is a wonderful forum where hidden things can be brought to light so that we can know where to use our authority in Christ to STOP the enemy from continuing to use our brothers/sisters in Christ for his purposes.
Thanks again, Paw, for making this available.
Well said Grace.
I do see the value in bringing the hidden things to light.
It is important to learn that even notable Christian Ministers are capable of being sinful,
and that it is far wiser to obey God rather than men.
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Bramble
Sheesh EP, every time you post you make CES sound just like TWI!
In TWI it was Worse to be unforgiving(ooo, bitter!) and Speak up about a problem where believers were being hurt than to be the leader who was hurting the believers.
Basically, you're saying shut up and take it, They're the men of GAWD so it's necessary for the movement of the word that You Shut Up and Forgive!
That, in my view, is Christianity at its ugliest.
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Ham
Yeah, it's like CES was the head of TWI in cryostasis.. somebody ignored the warning label and thawed it out..
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Ham
Should have left it buried under the fountain..
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undone
Quote: Rascal
Hey undone, why are you offended with folks here? Is it because we talk about what these people did to us?
It sometimes feels like folks get more angry at us for telling what happened than the perpetrators who assaulted us.
I don`t understand why the people who merely report the abuse are treated with such venom and and accusations, while love and respect are reserved for the perpetrators of the evil....sigh
Your mad at the wrong guys people.
Rascal,
Sorry if you thought I was treating you or anyone with venom. IMO and in my observation I
feel there is sometimes a personal attack on some who offer a different opinion. I can see a little of
EP's heart in his post's. I don't necessarily agree with all of them but I do believe he has a pure heart.
I just thought I'd send him an "atta boy" to maybe brighten his day. Not looking for a fight.
PS For any and all who have been hurt by twi and/or ces/stf I pray that your hearts will be mended and
for some that you can learn to trust again. Bless you all.......
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sprawled out
hmmm....as i said, Esty, you should poke around this forum a bit if you have a problem with my characterization of ol' vp. what i said was both direct and and accusation. nothing evil about it, if it's true.
you need to do your homework, my friend.
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rascal
Cool, thanks for understanding undone, I wasn`t meaning just you in particular. Gosh, I don`t want EP to feel picked on either. It probably feels that way, but it really isn`t personal.
I have been reading wolf and these other folks for quite some time. The information presented can feel overwhelming, like an attack, but it isn`t an attack of the person, it is of ideas and thought patterns that sometime we don`t even realise are affecting our judgement.
I thought that if EP could re read what wolf and some of these folks have written without being so angry, he/she might be able to consider the merit of the information that was being presented.
I know, it is damned hard to have to come to grips with what really happened in twi.
I am sure that if EP and others were aware of what happened to so many of us directly at vp/lcm/leaders hands in twi, they would no doubt understand the outrage we personally feel when the carnage is blythly referred to as being *minimal*.
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excathedra
did someone really say that ?
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Ham
Yep. Like someone else said, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree..
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rascal
Yup, I guess it can be considered minimal as long as it wasn`t his heart shattered or life that was ravaged and destroyed...sigh :(
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rich
Minimal?????
That was spoke like a true cult member. Lets see I died but you learned pp how great that was.
I don't know who said it but i'm thankful i'm not part of that family.
Who ever wrote this i'd like to hear if you could share scripture with me? I'd like to see how all that wonderful wisdom dw and jl taught you covered what you said.
Are you still on the bus waiting for vp and jl to show up?
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Estimated Prophet
Mercy.
I'm on the bus of Jesus Christ, and if you will believe that it might drive away the contention and cofusion.
" Therefore we do not lose heart,
but though our outer man is decaying,
yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
For momentary, light affliction
is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison"
IICor 4:16,17
I know the affliction is an awful thing to experience,
but the Word of God is clear ( regardless of VP, JL or anyone's contrary opinion)
the affliction is minimal or "light."
Rich,
Your rejection of me, " I'm glad you're not in my family"
and your insult , " a true cult member"
is the latest in a series of afflictions made upon me.
But comparing that with all the edifying posts you've made, its really no big deal.
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Estimated Prophet
Rascal,
Someday I'd like to have a nice long talk with you.
I have been more ravaged, shattered, and destroyed than you have any way of knowing.
I am holding on to Jesus for dear life because he is my sanity and whoelse has the words of Life?
I have been crushed like a grape , and now he is turning me into new wine for a new time.
and I can see him doing that with you too.
Hallelujah
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Estimated Prophet
Rascal,
I'm way beyond being angry.
I just see a vicious cycle going on of outrage begetting more outrage.
Now people I would have thought knew much better are hiring attorneys
to express their outrage more articulately and officially.
I am convinced that it all stops at the cross,
and that the newness of life and peace awaits on the other side.
See II Cor 5 or IPeter4 or Phil 3.
There is a place called "sharing the sufferings of Christ" that we don't want to go to,
but it is a place where an intimacy with the Savior is found that is incredibly sweet.
It's a place I pray Elizabeth Lynn has found, and everyone else who has been afflicted,
because it is the only place where one can find genuine healing
and the capaciity to really love the unlovable.
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Estimated Prophet
You know I always hated doing home work SO.
And I acknowledge that I was making a direct acusation when I accused you of making a direct accusation.
Naturally I don't think mine was evil....but I could be wrong.
I don't deny that your words are valid regarding VP.
I believe they describe his old , sinful nature.
My words were describing the new , Christlike nature of Dr W.
They are valid as well, and much more enduring.
I have learned to appreciate the manifestation of the "Real You" or the Christ within.
I try to be patient with the "old man" encounters,
but I encourage all of us to put on the mind of Christ and walk in his ways.
and " That's where its at, if you want to believe it"
as Jerry said to the violent protestors in Canada while on The Festval Express
" ...better take Jesus with you..."
( see the movie if you want to observe pathologically anti-authoritarianism)
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Estimated Prophet
Sheesh Bramble.
You're missing the point.
let me put it like Don Hendley,
" it's time to get down
to the heart of the matter,
because the flesh is weak
and the ashes will scatter but I think it's about
FORGIVENESS..."
But please do speak up,
I think the sinful actions of Christian Overseers is especially diabolically disgraceful.
really
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Estimated Prophet
Malcolm Smith said once a lady asked him to kick a lieing spirit out of her.
He told her he was sorry, but she had a much bigger problem.
That it would be very easy to call upon the little finger of God and drive the demon away.
"My dear Lady" he told her,
" this will be much more difficult.
The problem is that you're a liar.
You're going to have to change !!"
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Estimated Prophet
I think Galations speaks very loudly concerning the crisis at CES.
I know my posts sound like I think everything's hunky dory,
but I don't.
I truely abhor that which is Evil.
I think Galations 6 thuders when it says
" God is not Mocked,
as a man sows so shall he reap"
( my paraphrase)
but we are also called to recover those who are caught in the snare of sin
to reach out in "the spirit of meekness" to help restore them.
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rascal
That is fair enough EP. Sometimes it is hard to read and understand one another in this type of forum. What bothered me about what you said was that the damage was minimal. Surely you are aware that some of the folks that are reading you here, were victims of being drugged and raped by vp and his leaders?
There are people reading this thread who were forced to have abortions in order to stay within the will of God, that there are several of us who had friends that were grievously injured and some of them died while following orders from twi leaders?
I am sorry that you were grievously hurt as well.
It is hardly *minimal damage* to those whom suffered these things. It still is as painfully vivid today as it was 25 years ago when it happened.
I think that was the statement that I had a problem with. To minimalise the horror suffered, is to dismiss the evil....it makes it sound like the people who died, the pain that we suffered, the children lost do not matter, are unimportant.
To me, and you may correct me if I am mistaken ep, but when someone (not you but twi leaders) minimalises the horror and evil that was inflicted on trusting souls, the people that were in their care as ministers...it is usually an attempt to minimalise ones guilt and assuage one own conscience. To me, it conveniently dismisses the need to repent and seek the forgivness of the brother that has been wronged.
To me, the people who would deliberatly harm our innocent brothers and sisters in Christ to satisfy the lusts of their flesh....are despicable. I detest them for their betrayal of our pure hearts and selfless service to God. Their abuse of trusting souls, of women, of children, angers me greatly.
That they took what we willingly gave in service to God and used it for evil and to cause great harm. I do not understand not being angry at people who chose to be so vile.
Estimated Prophet, can you see how the people who used their positions of power and authority to steal from and cause harm to God`s people would to me seem to be no better than the Pharisees that Jesus so detested?
He called them *whited sepelchers* pretty on the outside but filled with decay and disease on the inside? He said Woe unto them...I never once read of him asking people to forgive and be nice to them.
Can you see why it would be hard for me to have any respect for the enormous harm that the religious leaders in our time did to so many trusting souls?
Why was it all right for Jesus to condemn the leaders who hurt God`s people back then and not right for us to hold the same contempt for the evil ones who came to *steal, kill, and destroy* from people seeking God in this day and age?
It just simply cannot be considered *minimal* ...nothing can be considered worth it....
The verse comes to mind about the shepherd leaving the 99 sheep to hunt and rescue the single lost. In the parable, he didn`t weigh in the balances and decide if it was worth it to leave the other 99.....the single lost sheep was worth the supreme sacrafice.
I am glad that you are willing to dialogue with us here E.P. there is much that can be learned from one another, as I believe each here has learned a great deal in their hourny since leaving twi.
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rascal
E.P. I have a question for you to consider. Pleas believe me when I say that I do not want to offend you unnecessarily.
You mentioned the *Christ like nature of vp* ...have you ever considered that given his proclivity to rampant adultery, the drunkeness, the lying, the stealing, the rape, the strife, the anger, the sulleness, the envyings...in short everything Galatians describes as a *man of the flesh who has no inheritance in the kingdom of God*?
I mean, I ask what exactly in vpw`s life would indicate that he WASN`T a false prophet, a wolf in sheeps clothing, the man of the flesh that galatians warned us about? I mean yeah, he taught scripture, but so did Jim Jones and David Koresche.
I mean I am wondering if you are giving him respect as a brother in Christ which he is not due...and applying a standard that is not applicable to those whom deliberately harm God`s people.
It is a lot to consider, but it might make sense when you think about how when Jesus told his desciples that they would recognise one another by their *fruit* There must have been more to it than what lable you placed on your chest or how many scriptures that one could quote.
I just do not see how a loving God could have led us to a place where we would learn some knowledge, but some of us were going to be raped and others murdered as part of the price paid for the rest to recieve the knowledge.
It would make sense though if we had been decieved, if we had fallen into a snare that had been cleverly disguised such as is described in proverbs.
The fact that the ministry imploded, and the offshoots are struggling with people still being hurt and disgarded might be an indication that the foundation that we built based on the teachings and scriptures we learned in twi might be considered a shaky foundation, not of rock, but on sand....a foundation that appears to have been crumbling, thus rendering the structures built upon them unsound as well.
Shrug, just a possible point to consider.
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Bramble
Yeah, I'm missing the point. But then I'm not Christian and don't see the whole forgiveness doctrine like you do, or the "Light" afflictions doctrine, either.
I'll say it again. I think there are many many people, plain ordinary people, who have not gone around causing great damage to others.
I have far greater respect for those ordinary people who lived ordinary lives being decent people, good friends and loving parents than I do for great church leaders with all the super de dooper doctrine who leave a wake of damaged lives behind them.
So what ever you position is in all this, I obviously haven't gotten it. You seem to flip around.
I guess it is some kind of change your life, turn to Jesus, all eternity is what counts type message.
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Estimated Prophet
Thank You Undone
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Estimated Prophet
Ham,
Actually I got off the stove three years ago.
I think you're confusing forgiveness with denial.
I never denied anything is wrong, but I have forgiven the wrongdoers
rather than setting out to teach them a lewson by setting their pants on fire.
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Estimated Prophet
Well said Grace.
I do see the value in bringing the hidden things to light.
It is important to learn that even notable Christian Ministers are capable of being sinful,
and that it is far wiser to obey God rather than men.
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Danny
Let me answer John's letter Who really gives a sheet what he thinks.
I wasn't good enough for him years ago why does it matter now.
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