Edited: It was John Juedes, NOT John Shroyer who does the messiah777 site. Great information for breaking free of way brain. Those folks have my respect.
I'd also add that I wonder about folks who still cling to and teach PFAL doctrine. Have they ever taken the time to actually study what they were taught? J Barrax - PFAL Review
As for what we've done, what we do and how we live, 1 John 3:1 obviously doesn't read the boards or she'd have her answers, but I don't feel any obligation or need to provide a resume for her.
As for my "prophecy", PU-LEASE.... I'm anything BUT prophetess and resent having my words twisted into such a fashion. I didn't "prophecy" anything; I stated my opinion and I stand behind my post 100%.
i'm fairly certain they think wierwille was a man of god
correct me if i'm wrong
i say forget it
AFAIK, you are correct. My sister was involved w/CFF for several years. Every time we would get together, she would say, Well you know what DR Wierwille said...blah blah blah..... One nite, I finally said, Mary Ann, he may have said it but he DIDN'T LIVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then she allowed me to tell her what I knew from GS and stopped sending them money and stopped attending their fellowships. She now corresponds with Peter Wade and his group. She is not the church-going type.
Just my opinion of what I have seen with one person, my sister. I was never involved with CFF. TWI was enough for me.
I made the mistake of being a part of a small offshoot for about a year after leaving TWI. Well, really, I was part of starting one (don't throw anything yet, please.) I wasn't out to make any money - and I never made a dime. OTOH - the clergy that asked for my help had other things in mind and I was too naive to realize it.
My advice for anyone leaving a group like TWI - a group that already has you on the fringes in many respects - is to take at least a year to get away from all that mess. Visit lots of different groups, and churches.
I don't fellowship with CFF because we don't share the same views anymore. I used to fellowship with them and was even married in CFF. It depends on your beliefs. It is true they still admire and respect Wierwille. It falls short of worship of the man, however, as they have reviewed and updated, and even changed a couple of points of doctrine...case in point...the Mystery. They don't fault Wierwille for getting it wrong. No one is one hundred percent right all the time anyway. That means they do sit back and look at what they were taught. However, most Wierwille doctrine is still accepted there.
You can take to the bank that John Shroyer is an excellent pastor. Regardless of one's doctrinal views, he is by far one of few, along with Wayne Clapp, who really care about people and are consistently busy, which is why the ministry has grown, as opposed to TWI which is losing out. I believe CFF has surpassed TWI in membership and has done that long ago. Granted most were ex-TWI members to start with, but they witness and bring people in.
I hope this post I read about charging for classes is not true. Last I experienced, they were not. Their classes are sold on tapes to individuals because it cost money to make the tapes. Then whoever has the tapes can play it in fellowships to anyone free of charge. They also welcomed anyone to copy the tapes. They did not care so long as the Word was taught. The tapes are copyrighted, but they are not anal like TWI and go after people. They understand people can't afford a lot of things.
Like any church, it draws a few wackos, I suppose. And in an ex-TWI kind of ministry, there are those still there with the old legalistic mindset. Spying on others, etc. John has spoken publically (and I was there at the time) that he wanted none of that in this ministry. Further, he realized that Wierwille was practically worshipped and part of the problem was that Wierwille taught everything the first time around. What did John do? He took the foundational teachings he had and split it among several teachers. He did not want happening to him what happened to Wierwille.
John is also a faithful husband and family man. You can't say that about TWI's leaders. If anyone deserved to take over, I guess he did. John and Wayne Clapp also draw a lot of old talent from TWI. Many good research people went to his ministry and help.
If there were any with bad experiences, I hope that can be put in the past. My only reason for not being a part was doctrinal pure and simple. I liked the people there, though a couple went legalistic on me. But I overlook that behavior now. My wife and I attend a local church and some legalistic behavior occurs there, too.
If the organization itself turns into a TWI, then yes, leave. Wouldn't blame you.
Awww Belle, I don`t want to seem like I am picking on anybody. People who come here don`t know our individual battles engaged, our victories, the obsticles over come over the years. The camradery and impact that we have had on one anothers lives here.
I was just trying to gently indicate that the people here are precious as well, Each with a uniquely special view point, each having learned insight on the path that they have traveled since leaving twi and worth sharing.
I just was trying to point out how precious people here are and how valuable the various insight can be, no matter which group or church or philosophy that one currently subscribes to.
Man talk about a bunch of bitter people! As soon as someone says something that's contrary to your thinking, you jump down their throat. It's like a little clique on GS with some specific people, just like in TWI. I bet you, if I came back here in 10yrs, it would be the same people bitching about how a poster is wrong for stating their opinion.
I was under the impression you were relieved to be out of TWI yet you still act and talk like the people who stand with the organizatrion, you're bitter, rude, cutting, scarcastic. Just because you have a little following of GS' spotters backing you up, doesn't give you the right to cut them down because they have a difference of opinion.
I'm sure you'll come back with a number of words to say to me but in all honesty I don't give a rat's a#@ !
Cow girl, I think that was the meanest thing said on this thread, in fact everything that you accused the other posters of being.
I don`t know if you are mad at a poster personally, or that someone disagrees with cff, or that they have a disagreement with being personally critisized. <_<
Several years ago, I attended a few local CFF fellowships........simple teachings, no big deal. The small group was kind and considerate........like most churches I've attended. But after those fellowships, when some talked about "the Word".......the adulation for DR. wierwille, and how he walked with God, came forward front and center. It turned my stomach.
Why do some of these offshoots have this pyramid-style structure where DR. wierwille is at the apex? And really, who is doing "the Word.??? How come some want to proclaim...."I am of Paul and I am of Apollos or I am of Dr. Wierwille".....when THE SCRIPTURES point out this deception so clearly in Corinthians???
I've been around CFF folk who continue to uphold "the law of believing" jargon, the "renew your mind" to petty issues, etc.......in so many ways, it's like they simply took their collateral books (not the Bible) and moved down the street from twi.
And......before you say that I'm painting the whole organization with a broad stroke, please note that this is MY EXPERIENCES. I know nothing about your neck of the woods. From all that I've heard.....if you want to rekindle the friendships and memories of early twi-days, then CFF is the group to attend.
But for me......I simply do NOT believe that God wants me to, exclusively, attend small home fellowships the rest of my life. IMO, the environment lends to private interpretation and probable manipulation. I love reading the Scriptures ..... but I also invite open dialogue and different viewpoints. Maybe, that's why I like hanging out here at GSC.
I posted MY OPINION - and even stated that it was merely my opinion. I have no beef with those who have differing opinions - it's the posters attacking those posting opinions about CFF that they don't agree with. 1 John and Cowgirl are the ones being nasty, not anyone else.
NP, if they (CFF) still worships vee pee, then is it really any different from being in TWI directly?
Belle it is difficult to offer an honest opinion on a group with out background involvement. Those here that have it offered some fair assessments I think. God and bad straight across the board have done so with informed opinions.
Pinklady, read the CES is in a Mess threads - take notes cause it's highly likely be seeing a CFF one someday, too.
Though your opinion I see nothing to indicate that they are heading in the direction of CES and I keep informed on what both are doing. Do you? What facts do you base this assumption on?
It already seems like you've been "pitched" the same old, "Take our class" propaganda - and you're already wary of it. Do you think they're going to drop the pitch if you say you don't want to take the class when it's "foundational" to their ministry?
Their class is not foundational to their ministry in the sense of like it was in the way. The class is available in their bookstore to purchase ,own, use, I have heard of some fellowships listening together to it but they should not be charging any money to do so beyond the purchase price if they agree to buy it together.
We all have to make our own path and, as Sushi says, the lessons are repeated until they are learned. Have you learned the lesson yet? If not, then maybe CFF is as good as the next offshoot.
Again you assume that there is some wrong lesson that she has not learned. Translation we have not been involved, and have no first hand experience with this group but we are an authority on what they will be like soon, and what lessons you should have learned that we assume these people are doing and have not learned. Based not on any facts so to speak but what we have decided is true (our Opinion) you need to learn the lessons that we think.
I may not have direct personal involvement with off shoots, no. The only reference point that I have for determining the spiritual healthiness or lack there of in any particular group and what they teach, is the way that people who have participated and support them behave.
I may not have direct personal involvement with off shoots, no. The only reference point that I have for determining the spiritual healthiness or lack there of in any particular group and what they teach, is the way that people who have participated and support them behave.
What if two different people who have "participated and supported them" behave in totally different ways? (say one is kind, understanding, level headed; the other is stubborn, over zealous, etc.)
Which one do we use as a reference point for determing the spiritual healthiness or lack thereof?
Truly, there are people here that I respect from a wide variety of spiritual back grounds.
The *fruit* that comes through, the love, the patience, the long suffering, meekness....you get what I mean comes through in what we write.
Those are the people who`s judgement I respect and perceptions that I consider. No matter which group they participate in.
Maybe the people who choose to be venemous or self rightious or bullies are not a fair representative of a group or the teachings that they espouse...but they sure give me pause to wonder what they are taught that makes bullying behavior acceptible.
Translation we have not been involved, and have no first hand experience with this group but we are an authority on what they will be like soon, and what lessons you should have learned that we assume these people are doing and have not learned. Based not on any facts so to speak but what we have decided is true (our Opinion) you need to learn the lessons that we think.
I just wanted to say thanks for that paragraph WD. (Ties into my thoughts recently regarding meself and "cultsih" mentality/mindset. ) That's a fine paragraph, imo. :) I'm outta here now...wee...
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Sushi
As in HERE!
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rascal
Thanks Sushi, I can always rely on you to help fix my goofs...lol
That is the link to the main church sight.
www.uia.net/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm is what is at the top of the page for the way international stuff.
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Belle
I'd also add that I wonder about folks who still cling to and teach PFAL doctrine. Have they ever taken the time to actually study what they were taught? J Barrax - PFAL Review
As for what we've done, what we do and how we live, 1 John 3:1 obviously doesn't read the boards or she'd have her answers, but I don't feel any obligation or need to provide a resume for her.
As for my "prophecy", PU-LEASE.... I'm anything BUT prophetess and resent having my words twisted into such a fashion. I didn't "prophecy" anything; I stated my opinion and I stand behind my post 100%.
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act2
AFAIK, you are correct. My sister was involved w/CFF for several years. Every time we would get together, she would say, Well you know what DR Wierwille said...blah blah blah..... One nite, I finally said, Mary Ann, he may have said it but he DIDN'T LIVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then she allowed me to tell her what I knew from GS and stopped sending them money and stopped attending their fellowships. She now corresponds with Peter Wade and his group. She is not the church-going type.
Just my opinion of what I have seen with one person, my sister. I was never involved with CFF. TWI was enough for me.
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doojable
I made the mistake of being a part of a small offshoot for about a year after leaving TWI. Well, really, I was part of starting one (don't throw anything yet, please.) I wasn't out to make any money - and I never made a dime. OTOH - the clergy that asked for my help had other things in mind and I was too naive to realize it.
My advice for anyone leaving a group like TWI - a group that already has you on the fringes in many respects - is to take at least a year to get away from all that mess. Visit lots of different groups, and churches.
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Eagle
I don't fellowship with CFF because we don't share the same views anymore. I used to fellowship with them and was even married in CFF. It depends on your beliefs. It is true they still admire and respect Wierwille. It falls short of worship of the man, however, as they have reviewed and updated, and even changed a couple of points of doctrine...case in point...the Mystery. They don't fault Wierwille for getting it wrong. No one is one hundred percent right all the time anyway. That means they do sit back and look at what they were taught. However, most Wierwille doctrine is still accepted there.
You can take to the bank that John Shroyer is an excellent pastor. Regardless of one's doctrinal views, he is by far one of few, along with Wayne Clapp, who really care about people and are consistently busy, which is why the ministry has grown, as opposed to TWI which is losing out. I believe CFF has surpassed TWI in membership and has done that long ago. Granted most were ex-TWI members to start with, but they witness and bring people in.
I hope this post I read about charging for classes is not true. Last I experienced, they were not. Their classes are sold on tapes to individuals because it cost money to make the tapes. Then whoever has the tapes can play it in fellowships to anyone free of charge. They also welcomed anyone to copy the tapes. They did not care so long as the Word was taught. The tapes are copyrighted, but they are not anal like TWI and go after people. They understand people can't afford a lot of things.
Like any church, it draws a few wackos, I suppose. And in an ex-TWI kind of ministry, there are those still there with the old legalistic mindset. Spying on others, etc. John has spoken publically (and I was there at the time) that he wanted none of that in this ministry. Further, he realized that Wierwille was practically worshipped and part of the problem was that Wierwille taught everything the first time around. What did John do? He took the foundational teachings he had and split it among several teachers. He did not want happening to him what happened to Wierwille.
John is also a faithful husband and family man. You can't say that about TWI's leaders. If anyone deserved to take over, I guess he did. John and Wayne Clapp also draw a lot of old talent from TWI. Many good research people went to his ministry and help.
If there were any with bad experiences, I hope that can be put in the past. My only reason for not being a part was doctrinal pure and simple. I liked the people there, though a couple went legalistic on me. But I overlook that behavior now. My wife and I attend a local church and some legalistic behavior occurs there, too.
If the organization itself turns into a TWI, then yes, leave. Wouldn't blame you.
God Bless.
Eagle
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rascal
Awww Belle, I don`t want to seem like I am picking on anybody. People who come here don`t know our individual battles engaged, our victories, the obsticles over come over the years. The camradery and impact that we have had on one anothers lives here.
I was just trying to gently indicate that the people here are precious as well, Each with a uniquely special view point, each having learned insight on the path that they have traveled since leaving twi and worth sharing.
I just was trying to point out how precious people here are and how valuable the various insight can be, no matter which group or church or philosophy that one currently subscribes to.
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Cowgirl
Man talk about a bunch of bitter people! As soon as someone says something that's contrary to your thinking, you jump down their throat. It's like a little clique on GS with some specific people, just like in TWI. I bet you, if I came back here in 10yrs, it would be the same people bitching about how a poster is wrong for stating their opinion.
I was under the impression you were relieved to be out of TWI yet you still act and talk like the people who stand with the organizatrion, you're bitter, rude, cutting, scarcastic. Just because you have a little following of GS' spotters backing you up, doesn't give you the right to cut them down because they have a difference of opinion.
I'm sure you'll come back with a number of words to say to me but in all honesty I don't give a rat's a#@ !
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rascal
Cow girl, I think that was the meanest thing said on this thread, in fact everything that you accused the other posters of being.
I don`t know if you are mad at a poster personally, or that someone disagrees with cff, or that they have a disagreement with being personally critisized. <_<
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NewParadigm
Cow girl, I think that was the best thing said on this thread.
I think folks are running low on their medication.
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skyrider
Several years ago, I attended a few local CFF fellowships........simple teachings, no big deal. The small group was kind and considerate........like most churches I've attended. But after those fellowships, when some talked about "the Word".......the adulation for DR. wierwille, and how he walked with God, came forward front and center. It turned my stomach.
Why do some of these offshoots have this pyramid-style structure where DR. wierwille is at the apex? And really, who is doing "the Word.??? How come some want to proclaim...."I am of Paul and I am of Apollos or I am of Dr. Wierwille".....when THE SCRIPTURES point out this deception so clearly in Corinthians???
I've been around CFF folk who continue to uphold "the law of believing" jargon, the "renew your mind" to petty issues, etc.......in so many ways, it's like they simply took their collateral books (not the Bible) and moved down the street from twi.
And......before you say that I'm painting the whole organization with a broad stroke, please note that this is MY EXPERIENCES. I know nothing about your neck of the woods. From all that I've heard.....if you want to rekindle the friendships and memories of early twi-days, then CFF is the group to attend.
But for me......I simply do NOT believe that God wants me to, exclusively, attend small home fellowships the rest of my life. IMO, the environment lends to private interpretation and probable manipulation. I love reading the Scriptures ..... but I also invite open dialogue and different viewpoints. Maybe, that's why I like hanging out here at GSC.
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excathedra
how do they feel about veepee?
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NewParadigm
Could their ever be a situation in life where that would not matter?
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Ham
"Tell me who you think VP is, and I'll tell you how far you'll go, spiritually"
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excathedra
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NewParadigm
My bad. I thought you said "how do they feel about veepee?"
My reply was in reference to that.
Sorry for the confusion.
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WhiteDove
Hey Cowgirl
Something tells me it won't be a rats a** that they will be hunting for today.
It looks like you'll be getting some cold wind up there in the North Country starting about Oh ..... NOW!
To all those who made honest assessments from experience Thanks, the rest is conjecture.
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Belle
I posted MY OPINION - and even stated that it was merely my opinion. I have no beef with those who have differing opinions - it's the posters attacking those posting opinions about CFF that they don't agree with. 1 John and Cowgirl are the ones being nasty, not anyone else.
NP, if they (CFF) still worships vee pee, then is it really any different from being in TWI directly?
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NewParadigm
"NP, if they (CFF) still worships vee pee, then is it really any different from being in TWI directly?"
Define worship.
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WhiteDove
Belle it is difficult to offer an honest opinion on a group with out background involvement. Those here that have it offered some fair assessments I think. God and bad straight across the board have done so with informed opinions.
Though your opinion I see nothing to indicate that they are heading in the direction of CES and I keep informed on what both are doing. Do you? What facts do you base this assumption on?Their class is not foundational to their ministry in the sense of like it was in the way. The class is available in their bookstore to purchase ,own, use, I have heard of some fellowships listening together to it but they should not be charging any money to do so beyond the purchase price if they agree to buy it together.
Again you assume that there is some wrong lesson that she has not learned. Translation we have not been involved, and have no first hand experience with this group but we are an authority on what they will be like soon, and what lessons you should have learned that we assume these people are doing and have not learned. Based not on any facts so to speak but what we have decided is true (our Opinion) you need to learn the lessons that we think.
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rascal
I may not have direct personal involvement with off shoots, no. The only reference point that I have for determining the spiritual healthiness or lack there of in any particular group and what they teach, is the way that people who have participated and support them behave.
What do you bring to the table here?
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NewParadigm
What if two different people who have "participated and supported them" behave in totally different ways? (say one is kind, understanding, level headed; the other is stubborn, over zealous, etc.)
Which one do we use as a reference point for determing the spiritual healthiness or lack thereof?
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rascal
Good question NP. I don`t mean to be offensive.
Truly, there are people here that I respect from a wide variety of spiritual back grounds.
The *fruit* that comes through, the love, the patience, the long suffering, meekness....you get what I mean comes through in what we write.
Those are the people who`s judgement I respect and perceptions that I consider. No matter which group they participate in.
Maybe the people who choose to be venemous or self rightious or bullies are not a fair representative of a group or the teachings that they espouse...but they sure give me pause to wonder what they are taught that makes bullying behavior acceptible.
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I Love Bagpipes
I just wanted to say thanks for that paragraph WD. (Ties into my thoughts recently regarding meself and "cultsih" mentality/mindset. ) That's a fine paragraph, imo. :) I'm outta here now...wee...
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