God brought the nation of Israel around - restored them to good standing as a nation when they had gone after idols.
This of course could only happen by restoring individuals or getting rid of the bad ones and putting someone on the throne who didn't need restoring.
In Israel's history God has restored/replaced a leader and then had that leader go through Israel removing the false god's and their priests, thus turning the people back to God.
In a hierarchical structure everything ultimately comes from the top down. CES may have a lot of problems, but if the leadership can be restored/replaced that person(s) can then begin cleaning house so-to-speak.
When Israel turned away from God it usually took a catastrophic situation like being enslaved to foreigners to wake them back up and get them reoriented toward God. The CES crises may serve this function.
God brought the nation of Israel around - restored them to good standing as a nation when they had gone after idols.
This of course could only happen by restoring individuals or getting rid of the bad ones and putting someone on the throne who didn't need restoring.
In Israel's history God has restored/replaced a leader and then had that leader go through Israel removing the false god's and their priests, thus turning the people back to God.
In a hierarchical structure everything ultimately comes from the top down. CES may have a lot of problems, but if the leadership can be restored/replaced that person(s) can then begin cleaning house so-to-speak.
When Israel turned away from God it usually took a catastrophic situation like being enslaved to foreigners to wake them back up and get them reoriented toward God. The CES crises may serve this function.
And God will also ultimately restore this broken world to a shiny new one. He does a lot of restoration.
I didn't read that uptown1 was equating israel and ces - just an example of God 'restoring' a group.
My 'restoration' post was talking about starting with the people. Sorry if that was not clear. I was trying to make the point that (i think) different orgs have different flavors, just like Moses and David were different people and both beloved by God.
My point was that as a 'group' I think the CES culture had some really unique qualities that are a blessing when used to glorify God. Stubborness and Persistence are really very similar just the heart is different. I am hoping that the unique qualities that are manifested in the culture of CES can be saved, by the 'leaders' bringing the whole thing to the altar.
Otherwise I'm sure people who want to serve will find churches, like many CES people already do - God will open a door.
It wasn't until recently that CES was acting like an 'all or nothing' (you have to see me exclusively) group. this was with the STFI change. during CES you could be an 'affiliate.' you could still supposedly bring your home group in as an 'affialite' today, but if you're involved in another church then discussions of your 'allegiance' would be brought up.
Twi would have done something like equate themselves with Israel – God’s chosen people out of all nations on earth.
My point was simply that a group or organization can receive God’s favor. They are not automatically excluded just by virtue of the fact they are a group.
Do you have a personal ax to grind with CES? I’m not being argumentative, it’s a real question.
I have no personal axe to grind with anyone. I just don't see things in the same light you do, uptown1.
My gut feeling is that any analogy of a group restoration is not relevant in this discussion because if you use Israel as an example, you are not really comparing apples with apples. I don't believe that God looks at groups as a whole - rather that He looks at the individuals in the groups and directs their paths. If the group as a whole listens - voila!! you have a group being restored.
I'm going to watch and listen for a while and see where this thread goes....
I initially started this thinking about the individuals at the top of the organization.. I still think they over-rate themselves- but look at the statement JL gave of them as a GROUP- "NOBODY ELSE has the 'package' WE offer.." thank God- one can only hope..
It's almost like they are trying to build a "kingdom of priests" or something.. had over twenty years to do it, and I can't say I behold any real results.
I don't think there's a possibility of restoring the organization- I think it was sunk from the day it started.
Honestly, they have had little to offer besides vics leftover theology reheated on high for sixty seconds, plus a few garnishings..
"One God One Lord"- the ONLY difference I saw in that little monument of "discovery" was an embellishment of way theology- how it dealt with the record in Colossians, where Jesus is said to create.
Uptown, I believe CI stands for "Christian International" which is another charismatic/pentecostal organization based out of Florida. I think that JAL and the others got their training in personal prophecy from this org.
If CES could manage to turn a corner and get rid of all the cult influence they still wouldn't become very large. The One God and One Lord book alone would keep them on the black list of Christianity.
I would like to see CES survive this and get better. Part of me thinks that could be possible.
Does anyone else here see any hope for them?
Does CES have any hope? Not sure anyone knows at this point uptown1.
Reading dmiller's post reminded me of when they were first starting out back in 87/88 it looked like the makings of a good Christian organization.
They had the Dialogue magazine where anyone could write a reseach paper or letter and CES would publish it, then anyone could critique it and write back their thoughts. GSCAFE's own Mark Sanguanetti (SP?) used to contribute articles. letters and papers.
Back then Jal, Sue P!er(e, Ralph D and John S would come to your fellowship or area and teach what they had been learning from the Word if requested. And they would hang out with and fellowship with folks. You could even disagree with them and they'd actually listen to people who offered advise and have discussions.
You could buy their tapes and books, or not, no pressure, I heard JAL say more then once, if you can't afford their stuff, and if you asked, CES would give it to you. In fact I saw him do just that with some folks one time.
Back in 88/89, I remember John S. saying "CES is not going to tell you what to do". What happened?
Once they decided to have fellowships only associated with them, have leader training and ordain people, with a heirarchial (SP?) structure, plus got into momentous and pp which appears to have gotten way out of control.
It looks to me like CES became another TWI type of organization.
Yes Uptown1 they did produce some excellent biblical research and even corrected several doctrinal errors of TWI. But did they ever completely get rid of the cult influence from TWI? I don't know everything going on with them, but based on reading some of these threads/posts, it looks like they have not.
Will they make a recovery? I don't know. I just know that I won't participate in a group like that.
Their still my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'll pray for them, but maybe they should disband, find jobs and a good Church to attend.
It seems that some of you think that guilting someone into doing something is endemic to TWI or CES. I can tell you that it's not. This is classic in every denomination!
I had to be at church 3x a week or more when growing up. If my family went on vacation, we had to take a little "communion kit" if we were going to be in the mountains on a Sunday, cuz we had to have that communion cracker and grape juice or my mother would die.
Just this week (FF 40 years) I read the bulletin from my mother's church. It was about how to forsake the assembly of the saints -- even if you had unexpected company from out of state or there was a severe blizzard -- was a sin. When talking to my Mother over the weekend, she said there was a benefit for a young man who needed a liver transplant, but they couldn't go bec/ the weather was bad.
But did they go to church in the same bad weather? #&$(*#)@, yeah, they did!
Now I ask you... which event would Jesus attend? Drives me nuts.
Newcomer, I have to agree with you that many churches and probably all denominations are guilty of using guilt to keep people involved. I remember as a kid the preacher laying guilt on the congregation for staying home and watching Bonanza on Sunday nights instead of returning to church for the second sermon of the day (baptist).
It seems that some of you think that guilting someone into doing something is endemic to TWI or CES. I can tell you that it's not. This is classic in every denomination!
That is a valid point, but I would add: abuse, stupidity, and lack of common sense in one group does not justify abuse, stupidity, and lack of common sense in another.
It's my lunch time over here, so I'm going to try and add some food to this line...I have been listening to so many people who know so much more Bible than I, who seem to regret the loss of CES and all the good things that went with the people and organization, I feel it's really up to the audience to find a solution. This is not looking like it's going to be easy, but if people want this "body of Christ" on planet earth to be played out to everyone's satisfaction, a new organizatioal structure has to be created.
Now I'm not very well connected to either TWI or CES, but judging from all these conversations a consensus has to come about? What do people want, how should it be designed, what are the expectations spiritually, etc. If your looking for "meat" something has to be slaughtered and I guess this pp stuff is a chunk that's got to go? Do you start a new organization with new letters with the same listeners? Do you really need so much new "research"? Isn't there enough info out there already? Who do you want to invite to the party?
That bit being said, does anyone on this forum really want to go beyond talking on GreaseSpot? This is a safe place. Everyone can laugh, cry, condemn, condone, justify, rant and rave, safely at home behind their computer. There's little risk. Maybe people are just gettiing too old and they're tired of trying to resurrect the illusion of us all getting along as one big happy family?
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doojable
Ahem - If I'm not mistaken - God restores people not organizations. Individuals, souls, persons with beating, searching hearts.
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uptown1
God brought the nation of Israel around - restored them to good standing as a nation when they had gone after idols.
This of course could only happen by restoring individuals or getting rid of the bad ones and putting someone on the throne who didn't need restoring.
In Israel's history God has restored/replaced a leader and then had that leader go through Israel removing the false god's and their priests, thus turning the people back to God.
In a hierarchical structure everything ultimately comes from the top down. CES may have a lot of problems, but if the leadership can be restored/replaced that person(s) can then begin cleaning house so-to-speak.
When Israel turned away from God it usually took a catastrophic situation like being enslaved to foreigners to wake them back up and get them reoriented toward God. The CES crises may serve this function.
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doojable
Are you equating Israel with CES? if you are, then what about the rest of the Body of Christ?
I just don't see things from your perspective.
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1broken1
And God will also ultimately restore this broken world to a shiny new one. He does a lot of restoration.
I didn't read that uptown1 was equating israel and ces - just an example of God 'restoring' a group.
My 'restoration' post was talking about starting with the people. Sorry if that was not clear. I was trying to make the point that (i think) different orgs have different flavors, just like Moses and David were different people and both beloved by God.
My point was that as a 'group' I think the CES culture had some really unique qualities that are a blessing when used to glorify God. Stubborness and Persistence are really very similar just the heart is different. I am hoping that the unique qualities that are manifested in the culture of CES can be saved, by the 'leaders' bringing the whole thing to the altar.
Otherwise I'm sure people who want to serve will find churches, like many CES people already do - God will open a door.
It wasn't until recently that CES was acting like an 'all or nothing' (you have to see me exclusively) group. this was with the STFI change. during CES you could be an 'affiliate.' you could still supposedly bring your home group in as an 'affialite' today, but if you're involved in another church then discussions of your 'allegiance' would be brought up.
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uptown1
Doojabel,
I think you missed my point all together.
Twi would have done something like equate themselves with Israel – God’s chosen people out of all nations on earth.
My point was simply that a group or organization can receive God’s favor. They are not automatically excluded just by virtue of the fact they are a group.
Do you have a personal ax to grind with CES? I’m not being argumentative, it’s a real question.
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doojable
I have no personal axe to grind with anyone. I just don't see things in the same light you do, uptown1.
My gut feeling is that any analogy of a group restoration is not relevant in this discussion because if you use Israel as an example, you are not really comparing apples with apples. I don't believe that God looks at groups as a whole - rather that He looks at the individuals in the groups and directs their paths. If the group as a whole listens - voila!! you have a group being restored.
I'm going to watch and listen for a while and see where this thread goes....
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Sushi
In response to the thread title, I believe it would be more accurate to say, "They have delusions of adequacy".
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richnchrispy
Dooj-
By definition an analogy will never be comparing apples with apples. ;)
Chrispy
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Ham
Yeah.. one thing to say, so many ways to say it..
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doojable
Ok well it's still not a good analogy......
It's comparing apples to oranges.....
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Uptown, AG stands for Assemblies of God, one of many Pentecostal/charismatic denominations. As for CI, I have no idea.
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Ham
I initially started this thinking about the individuals at the top of the organization.. I still think they over-rate themselves- but look at the statement JL gave of them as a GROUP- "NOBODY ELSE has the 'package' WE offer.." thank God- one can only hope..
It's almost like they are trying to build a "kingdom of priests" or something.. had over twenty years to do it, and I can't say I behold any real results.
I don't think there's a possibility of restoring the organization- I think it was sunk from the day it started.
Honestly, they have had little to offer besides vics leftover theology reheated on high for sixty seconds, plus a few garnishings..
"One God One Lord"- the ONLY difference I saw in that little monument of "discovery" was an embellishment of way theology- how it dealt with the record in Colossians, where Jesus is said to create.
Whoopee..
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soulsurfer
Uptown, I believe CI stands for "Christian International" which is another charismatic/pentecostal organization based out of Florida. I think that JAL and the others got their training in personal prophecy from this org.
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sprawled out
you sure it's not for "Completely Idiotic?"
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Outin88.
Does CES have any hope? Not sure anyone knows at this point uptown1.
Reading dmiller's post reminded me of when they were first starting out back in 87/88 it looked like the makings of a good Christian organization.
They had the Dialogue magazine where anyone could write a reseach paper or letter and CES would publish it, then anyone could critique it and write back their thoughts. GSCAFE's own Mark Sanguanetti (SP?) used to contribute articles. letters and papers.
Back then Jal, Sue P!er(e, Ralph D and John S would come to your fellowship or area and teach what they had been learning from the Word if requested. And they would hang out with and fellowship with folks. You could even disagree with them and they'd actually listen to people who offered advise and have discussions.
You could buy their tapes and books, or not, no pressure, I heard JAL say more then once, if you can't afford their stuff, and if you asked, CES would give it to you. In fact I saw him do just that with some folks one time.
Back in 88/89, I remember John S. saying "CES is not going to tell you what to do". What happened?
Once they decided to have fellowships only associated with them, have leader training and ordain people, with a heirarchial (SP?) structure, plus got into momentous and pp which appears to have gotten way out of control.
It looks to me like CES became another TWI type of organization.
Yes Uptown1 they did produce some excellent biblical research and even corrected several doctrinal errors of TWI. But did they ever completely get rid of the cult influence from TWI? I don't know everything going on with them, but based on reading some of these threads/posts, it looks like they have not.
Will they make a recovery? I don't know. I just know that I won't participate in a group like that.
Their still my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'll pray for them, but maybe they should disband, find jobs and a good Church to attend.
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soulsurfer
Haha. No, I'm not sure.
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Kevlar2000
Nah, it really stands for Completely Completely Complete Charismatic Cookie-Cutter Christianity Incorporated.
What? Oh, the other "C"s are silent.
Because you know, the greatest cargoes of life come in
over quiet "C"s.
--------------------------------------------------
Uptown, you ask if there's hope?
While there's life, there's hope. So they'd better get busy figuring out what went wrong, and decide not to do that again.
As Jack Handey, author of the "Deep Thoughts" series said,
"With every new sunrise, there is a new chance. But with every sunset, you blew it."
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sprawled out
ouch. clever, but ouch.
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Holy Smoke
Hey, guys.
I just listened to Belle's audio interview.
It seems that some of you think that guilting someone into doing something is endemic to TWI or CES. I can tell you that it's not. This is classic in every denomination!
I had to be at church 3x a week or more when growing up. If my family went on vacation, we had to take a little "communion kit" if we were going to be in the mountains on a Sunday, cuz we had to have that communion cracker and grape juice or my mother would die.
Just this week (FF 40 years) I read the bulletin from my mother's church. It was about how to forsake the assembly of the saints -- even if you had unexpected company from out of state or there was a severe blizzard -- was a sin. When talking to my Mother over the weekend, she said there was a benefit for a young man who needed a liver transplant, but they couldn't go bec/ the weather was bad.
But did they go to church in the same bad weather? #&$(*#)@, yeah, they did!
Now I ask you... which event would Jesus attend? Drives me nuts.
NC
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tonto
Newcomer, I have to agree with you that many churches and probably all denominations are guilty of using guilt to keep people involved. I remember as a kid the preacher laying guilt on the congregation for staying home and watching Bonanza on Sunday nights instead of returning to church for the second sermon of the day (baptist).
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therebutforgrace
1b1... You wrote...Stubborness and Persistence are really very similar just the heart is different.
That reminded me of a FABULOUS chart I got from some ex Wayfers years and years ago.
On the left was a list of God-given attributes ...................... on the right was how Satan twists them into something else.
As per your example...
Persistence/Faithfulness/Steadfastness/Perseverance...............Stubbornness/Inflexibility/Rigidness/Dogmaticism
As you said, the difference is heart.
They explained it thus:
This attribute is used to serve God and others............................................this is twisted to serve self
:-)
It was awesome and I'll look for it.
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Ham
That is a valid point, but I would add: abuse, stupidity, and lack of common sense in one group does not justify abuse, stupidity, and lack of common sense in another.
:)
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Bumpy
It's my lunch time over here, so I'm going to try and add some food to this line...I have been listening to so many people who know so much more Bible than I, who seem to regret the loss of CES and all the good things that went with the people and organization, I feel it's really up to the audience to find a solution. This is not looking like it's going to be easy, but if people want this "body of Christ" on planet earth to be played out to everyone's satisfaction, a new organizatioal structure has to be created.
Now I'm not very well connected to either TWI or CES, but judging from all these conversations a consensus has to come about? What do people want, how should it be designed, what are the expectations spiritually, etc. If your looking for "meat" something has to be slaughtered and I guess this pp stuff is a chunk that's got to go? Do you start a new organization with new letters with the same listeners? Do you really need so much new "research"? Isn't there enough info out there already? Who do you want to invite to the party?
That bit being said, does anyone on this forum really want to go beyond talking on GreaseSpot? This is a safe place. Everyone can laugh, cry, condemn, condone, justify, rant and rave, safely at home behind their computer. There's little risk. Maybe people are just gettiing too old and they're tired of trying to resurrect the illusion of us all getting along as one big happy family?
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Ham
Might be the understatement of the year..
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