They are probably redoing the sites. I would expect them to. Especially if they are going to re-examine that subject. But you can still get to much of it through the online catalog.
Ham, I'm curious. To whom would they need to apologize via the website? And who is harrassing them that they would want to "leave them alone"? (besides the people on this board, whom I'm sure they could care less about)
Yes, I would think taking something off a website that is controversial is SOP for any org. In fact, legal and PR counsel may have required it in this instance.
I think Ham is speaking of the general consensus here that an organizaton which has hurt people would want to apologize to them. Although Corporations don't explain changes of Presidents in much more than a paragraph in a mailing to stockholders, etc., a Christian organization might feel led to do a bit more, especially when its inner circle workings have been exposed for the evil they have caused. (I call breaking up a marriage evil. I call quenching the spirit of God in even one Saint evil. I call M&Aing people evil.)
Part of their problem has been that they "could care less about" various people....and I fully expect them to wake up to that obvious unChristlike attitude for Christian 'ministers' and change it.
Last month we were told by the closest thing to a CES spokesperson here at GSC that when they had their Board Meeting and changed Presidents, they'd ask for input from their faith community, and try to get it all on the table and work out the problems they have come, through GSC, to learn are more widespread than they knew prior to GSers getting into the discussion. We have it on good authority that CES BOD members are reading GS posts, and that what has here been exposed has made changes in their personal and hopefully organization's lives. If there were some on the CES BOD who wanted their lives to continue status quo...it would have needed to continue in the dark (most CESers didn't know the stuff GSC has exposed)....and GSC has seen to it that there is no dark at this time on this subject....so that ended that. Those on the CES BOD who want to live in the light are reading here at GS or getting reports from those reading here...and I expect by now they have learned that there is much wisdom here, interspersed with some righteous anger and some carnality and some disbelief and lots of other stuff that comes when people are betrayed, their friends or family are hurt, they're told they are the 'only one who feels this way' and they find out that was a lie to their face, etc.
As the BOD individually and corporately sees their sin, there will be many apologies to be made. Just as you or I make in our own lives. Difference being that most of our sin isn't headline-making. CES leaders, on the other hand, who have both private and public sin, will offer not only private apologies/repentance/explanations.....but also public ones.
As the BOD individually and corporately sees their sin, there will be many apologies to be made. Just as you or I make in our own lives. Difference being that most of our sin isn't headline-making. CES leaders, on the other hand, who have both private and public sin, will offer not only private apologies/repentance/explanations.....but also public ones.
Excellent post (once again) TBFG... that last line... (which I italicized)... I certainly hope that it takes place... for all that are involved/concerned.
To whom would they need to apologize via the website? And who is harrassing them that they would want to "leave them alone"? (besides the people on this board, whom I'm sure they could care less about)
I think they owe their "constituency" an apology, at the very least.
The only reason I care is that I have ties with CES's parent organization, and observe CES taking the same journey of abuse and manipulation.
For a person to think using "prophecy" to break up a marrriage to be not abusive and evil, well.. I don't know quite what to say.
Other than that- they are small potatos in the larger scheme of things.
I'm not looking for an apology for me, personally.
Yes, I would think taking something off a website that is controversial is SOP for any org. In fact, legal and PR counsel may have required it in this instance.
I agree, but I would add:
.. it took ALMOST the same kind of pressure to get them to take that down, as it took to get der vey to dump martindale. They would have followed him to the grave if it weren't for the lawyers..
JL defended PP here in his llittle letter.. all the way to the end
An exerpt of their own review of the prophecy book in the catalog-
Five appendices cover valuable aspects of prophecy, including the gift ministry of a prophet, false prophets and false prophecies,
If they can't use their little "zero to prophecy in five easy steps" book to filter out spiders in the nose and worse, either they can't read, or something is wrong with their book.
Whole appendix on false prophets, and false prophecies..
Makes me think that the darkness hasn't gone away, it's just moved back into the inner sanctum..
Who in TWI used to say his life, or our lives, should be an open book? Was it Lock-Box Louis?
That's the only cure for this kind of thing. Power corrupts, but corruption cannot easily exist in the open. They need to open the book(s).
Then again, New Year's resolutions are a popular and reliable path to personal repentence. Anybody know if the Spiders & Truth Gang made any midnight resolutions last New Years Eve? Here are a few they might have made:
"I will keep my big mouth shut."
"I will not conjure up dreams to manipulate my fellow Christians."
"I will not use my position and authority as a cult leader to unethically exert undue influence over the sheep that pay my bills."
"I will make a public accounting of myself and all the stupid pet tricks that pass for my "leadership" in this bogus operation at the Greasespot Cafe."
"I will clear all my wacko dreams with the gypsy fortune teller at the trailer park, who has way more sense than the mickeymouse sanhedrin I call colleagues, and is honest enough to admit she's just in it for the shekels."
the unpleasant truth is, these guys think they're "right." they always have. it's absolutely fundamental to their thing. they talk a good game about learning and whatnot, but they've built this whole operation on the very way-brained elitist mindset the made twi the twisted cult it was. it's a mindset that doesn't lend itself to "waking up."
Sprawled Out, you wrote...they've built this whole operation on the very way-brained elitist mindset .....a mindset that doesn't lend itself to "waking up."
Quite correct....but I will continue to hope...and though not holding my breath, I will serve a God of miracles until I beathe my last one
Is this an updated photo of a certain cult president? No. It's an old photo.
This ordinary portrait, of an ordinary man, and his faithful pet, which I'll call "Mr. Fletcher," so exemplifies all the joy and warmth of prophecy coming out of The Spiders & Truth Ministry Inc. we've read about recently, the resemblance is (at least metaphorically, "spiritually") palpable.
One important difference - to this writer's (incomplete) knowledge, the man below never certified, as divine revelation, a dream about spiders emerging out of the nose of a church member. After all, he had standards.
I can verify what therebutforgrace has written. CES people are reading Grease Spot Cafe posts. In fact, someone in CES got my posts mixed up with someone else's here and sent this to John Lynn who I am trying to offer counsel to. I decided to correct this matter by sending John all my Grease Spot Cafe posts where I mention his name as I have absolutely nothing to hide here. Fortunately, the person that gave John the wrong information by saying that my posts ripped up John Lynn confessed to John that he was mistaken. That my posts have not ripped up John Lynn. Instead they have been very critical of CES's use of personal prophecy in their ministry. I have only been telling them this for 6+ years. And I am not the first to tell them this either. Others came before me. Some of these people have been Grease Spot Cafe posters as well, for example Mark Coomer and Steve Lortz. We have all been telling CES for many years that their use of personal prophecy was going to eventually at least, get them in serious trouble. They are slow, but are learning S L O W L Y. Or at least I hope. Gee guys, do you have to have one CES person sue the others with the misuse of personal prophecy playing a large role in this, before you can see that your use of personal prophecy needs to be dramatically changed?
and I think that is about the only hope they've got is DRAMATIC change, and more than just the personal prophecy issue..
I don't think internalizing these issues will fix much.
I hope they just didn't pull that little article off, take it back to a smoke filled boardroom somewhere for cleaning and polishing, and in nine months we'll see another reincarnation of the same thing.
Their website.. my opinion- it almost looks like they've taken efforts to make it look more "mainstream"..
almost like they are sweeping all this under the rug, and HOPING it will all go away..
As the BOD individually and corporately sees their sin, there will be many apologies to be made. Just as you or I make in our own lives. Difference being that most of our sin isn't headline-making. CES leaders, on the other hand, who have both private and public sin, will offer not only private apologies/repentance/explanations.....but also public ones.
Well.... okay I agree with that. But several things.
Headline making: This isn't. It just isn't. Greasespot Cafe is one of the slickest websites I've ever seen, and my hat's off to the creator, but it isn't media headlines.
Apologies: I think apologies are for face-to-face. I don't think website apologies are appropriate in any situation. Talk about impersonal. Yes, I think apologies to certain individuals are due. And I think explanations to constituents are due via mail or phone. Not a website.
Prophecies: I do think we have current day prophecy and prophets. I myself have prophetic dreams, so I keep a dream journal. I've had dreams come true -- right down to the outfit someone was wearing! -- two days to six years later. But I know the difference immediately when I wake up whether it was a significant dream (from God. and I write those down), a dream from my own subconcious to help ME process things in life, or just jumbled up junk from the office.
Keep it coming. I love the honesty here! And the humor!
Apologies: I think apologies are for face-to-face. I don't think website apologies are appropriate in any situation. Talk about impersonal. Yes, I think apologies to certain individuals are due. And I think explanations to constituents are due via mail or phone. Not a website.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I don't think a PUBLIC apology is such a bad thing.. but I agree with you to the extent that a public apology should not be DEMANDED. That would be similar to a demand for love from another individual.
Would such an apology be appropriate? Perhaps. Perhaps- if it was an expression of sincere love..
I think the lack of apology, public OR private, speaks of the egotistical conditions at large on the top of the organization.
I think they feel they have no reason to apologize.. "geeze.. what did I do? If you'd just listen to my tapes and read my book, everything would be peachy keen.."
Prophecies: I do think we have current day prophecy and prophets. I myself have prophetic dreams, so I keep a dream journal. I've had dreams come true -- right down to the outfit someone was wearing! -- two days to six years later. But I know the difference immediately when I wake up whether it was a significant dream (from God. and I write those down), a dream from my own subconcious to help ME process things in life, or just jumbled up junk from the office.
1 tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
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therebutforgrace
Where was it, that you can tell it's missing?
What was it called?
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Ham
"what da bible says about personal prophecy" or something like that..
It was right on the front page there..
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richnchrispy
They are probably redoing the sites. I would expect them to. Especially if they are going to re-examine that subject. But you can still get to much of it through the online catalog.
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.ph...cle&sid=557
Chrispy
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Holy Smoke
Ham, I'm curious. To whom would they need to apologize via the website? And who is harrassing them that they would want to "leave them alone"? (besides the people on this board, whom I'm sure they could care less about)
Yes, I would think taking something off a website that is controversial is SOP for any org. In fact, legal and PR counsel may have required it in this instance.
NC
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therebutforgrace
Hi newcomer,
I think Ham is speaking of the general consensus here that an organizaton which has hurt people would want to apologize to them. Although Corporations don't explain changes of Presidents in much more than a paragraph in a mailing to stockholders, etc., a Christian organization might feel led to do a bit more, especially when its inner circle workings have been exposed for the evil they have caused. (I call breaking up a marriage evil. I call quenching the spirit of God in even one Saint evil. I call M&Aing people evil.)
Part of their problem has been that they "could care less about" various people....and I fully expect them to wake up to that obvious unChristlike attitude for Christian 'ministers' and change it.
Last month we were told by the closest thing to a CES spokesperson here at GSC that when they had their Board Meeting and changed Presidents, they'd ask for input from their faith community, and try to get it all on the table and work out the problems they have come, through GSC, to learn are more widespread than they knew prior to GSers getting into the discussion. We have it on good authority that CES BOD members are reading GS posts, and that what has here been exposed has made changes in their personal and hopefully organization's lives. If there were some on the CES BOD who wanted their lives to continue status quo...it would have needed to continue in the dark (most CESers didn't know the stuff GSC has exposed)....and GSC has seen to it that there is no dark at this time on this subject....so that ended that. Those on the CES BOD who want to live in the light are reading here at GS or getting reports from those reading here...and I expect by now they have learned that there is much wisdom here, interspersed with some righteous anger and some carnality and some disbelief and lots of other stuff that comes when people are betrayed, their friends or family are hurt, they're told they are the 'only one who feels this way' and they find out that was a lie to their face, etc.
As the BOD individually and corporately sees their sin, there will be many apologies to be made. Just as you or I make in our own lives. Difference being that most of our sin isn't headline-making. CES leaders, on the other hand, who have both private and public sin, will offer not only private apologies/repentance/explanations.....but also public ones.
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Tom Strange
Excellent post (once again) TBFG... that last line... (which I italicized)... I certainly hope that it takes place... for all that are involved/concerned.
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Ham
The only reason I care is that I have ties with CES's parent organization, and observe CES taking the same journey of abuse and manipulation.
For a person to think using "prophecy" to break up a marrriage to be not abusive and evil, well.. I don't know quite what to say.
Other than that- they are small potatos in the larger scheme of things.
I'm not looking for an apology for me, personally.
I agree, but I would add:
.. it took ALMOST the same kind of pressure to get them to take that down, as it took to get der vey to dump martindale. They would have followed him to the grave if it weren't for the lawyers..
JL defended PP here in his llittle letter.. all the way to the end
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Ham
An exerpt of their own review of the prophecy book in the catalog-
If they can't use their little "zero to prophecy in five easy steps" book to filter out spiders in the nose and worse, either they can't read, or something is wrong with their book.
Whole appendix on false prophets, and false prophecies..
Makes me think that the darkness hasn't gone away, it's just moved back into the inner sanctum..
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satori001
Who in TWI used to say his life, or our lives, should be an open book? Was it Lock-Box Louis?
That's the only cure for this kind of thing. Power corrupts, but corruption cannot easily exist in the open. They need to open the book(s).
Then again, New Year's resolutions are a popular and reliable path to personal repentence. Anybody know if the Spiders & Truth Gang made any midnight resolutions last New Years Eve? Here are a few they might have made:
"I will keep my big mouth shut."
"I will not conjure up dreams to manipulate my fellow Christians."
"I will not use my position and authority as a cult leader to unethically exert undue influence over the sheep that pay my bills."
"I will make a public accounting of myself and all the stupid pet tricks that pass for my "leadership" in this bogus operation at the Greasespot Cafe."
"I will clear all my wacko dreams with the gypsy fortune teller at the trailer park, who has way more sense than the mickeymouse sanhedrin I call colleagues, and is honest enough to admit she's just in it for the shekels."
Just a few ideas...
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sprawled out
don't hold your breath, gracie.
the unpleasant truth is, these guys think they're "right." they always have. it's absolutely fundamental to their thing. they talk a good game about learning and whatnot, but they've built this whole operation on the very way-brained elitist mindset the made twi the twisted cult it was. it's a mindset that doesn't lend itself to "waking up."
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Ham
Here's an "appendix" they should have included in their "work"
Prophecy for Dummies
They did manage to incorporate some of this into their latest efforts though..
I wonder if they cited their source
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Ham
looks like they still think Graeser is the pres
Wonder how long his mug will be on THAT page..
Looks like pulling the prophecy thingy had more priority..
whoops.. fixed the link..
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Ham
Satori, keep them coming..
:)
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therebutforgrace
Sprawled Out, you wrote...they've built this whole operation on the very way-brained elitist mindset .....a mindset that doesn't lend itself to "waking up."
Quite correct....but I will continue to hope...and though not holding my breath, I will serve a God of miracles until I beathe my last one
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satori001
Is this an updated photo of a certain cult president? No. It's an old photo.
This ordinary portrait, of an ordinary man, and his faithful pet, which I'll call "Mr. Fletcher," so exemplifies all the joy and warmth of prophecy coming out of The Spiders & Truth Ministry Inc. we've read about recently, the resemblance is (at least metaphorically, "spiritually") palpable.
One important difference - to this writer's (incomplete) knowledge, the man below never certified, as divine revelation, a dream about spiders emerging out of the nose of a church member. After all, he had standards.
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Ham
I dunno.. I'd like to see this prophecy thing dealt with in an honest forum.. just asking too much I guess..
Back it goes to the "boardroom".. sheesh.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I can verify what therebutforgrace has written. CES people are reading Grease Spot Cafe posts. In fact, someone in CES got my posts mixed up with someone else's here and sent this to John Lynn who I am trying to offer counsel to. I decided to correct this matter by sending John all my Grease Spot Cafe posts where I mention his name as I have absolutely nothing to hide here. Fortunately, the person that gave John the wrong information by saying that my posts ripped up John Lynn confessed to John that he was mistaken. That my posts have not ripped up John Lynn. Instead they have been very critical of CES's use of personal prophecy in their ministry. I have only been telling them this for 6+ years. And I am not the first to tell them this either. Others came before me. Some of these people have been Grease Spot Cafe posters as well, for example Mark Coomer and Steve Lortz. We have all been telling CES for many years that their use of personal prophecy was going to eventually at least, get them in serious trouble. They are slow, but are learning S L O W L Y. Or at least I hope. Gee guys, do you have to have one CES person sue the others with the misuse of personal prophecy playing a large role in this, before you can see that your use of personal prophecy needs to be dramatically changed?
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Ham
Yeah..
and I think that is about the only hope they've got is DRAMATIC change, and more than just the personal prophecy issue..
I don't think internalizing these issues will fix much.
I hope they just didn't pull that little article off, take it back to a smoke filled boardroom somewhere for cleaning and polishing, and in nine months we'll see another reincarnation of the same thing.
Their website.. my opinion- it almost looks like they've taken efforts to make it look more "mainstream"..
almost like they are sweeping all this under the rug, and HOPING it will all go away..
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rhino
For some reason, that song by Huey Lewis comes to mind ... "I Want a New Drug"
Only it would maybe be, "I want a new cult"
One that won't make me prophecy too much ...
Or make my face break out, with spiders
One that doesn't cost too much
OK, it needs some work
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Holy Smoke
Well.... okay I agree with that. But several things.
Headline making: This isn't. It just isn't. Greasespot Cafe is one of the slickest websites I've ever seen, and my hat's off to the creator, but it isn't media headlines.
Apologies: I think apologies are for face-to-face. I don't think website apologies are appropriate in any situation. Talk about impersonal. Yes, I think apologies to certain individuals are due. And I think explanations to constituents are due via mail or phone. Not a website.
Prophecies: I do think we have current day prophecy and prophets. I myself have prophetic dreams, so I keep a dream journal. I've had dreams come true -- right down to the outfit someone was wearing! -- two days to six years later. But I know the difference immediately when I wake up whether it was a significant dream (from God. and I write those down), a dream from my own subconcious to help ME process things in life, or just jumbled up junk from the office.
Keep it coming. I love the honesty here! And the humor!
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Ham
Welcome, newcomer!
Thanks for your thoughts.
I don't think a PUBLIC apology is such a bad thing.. but I agree with you to the extent that a public apology should not be DEMANDED. That would be similar to a demand for love from another individual.
Would such an apology be appropriate? Perhaps. Perhaps- if it was an expression of sincere love..
I think the lack of apology, public OR private, speaks of the egotistical conditions at large on the top of the organization.
I think they feel they have no reason to apologize.. "geeze.. what did I do? If you'd just listen to my tapes and read my book, everything would be peachy keen.."
Arrogance, to the end..
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waterbuffalo
Cool!
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1broken1
1 tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
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excathedra
who decides whose the elder ?
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