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I dunno.. logicallly speaking, springing this agreement on somebody after the deal is done is kind of underhanded, in my opinion.

I repair stuff for a living at the moment. It would be like me having the customer signing a waiver holding me harmless, in case I was negligent, the TV repair went wrong and burned their house down.

"oh, by the way, if you DON'T sign, the repair will cost you $300.00 more.."

You don't do that with THINGS. Why in God's name, do they do that with PEOPLE?

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Hammer,

Yourself and a few others here at GS have the habit of wildly exaggerating and going over the top to cause destruction. Like vultures going in for the kill at any sign of weakness or error.

So here is more fodder for you...Yep I went through the pillow exercise at Vision Quest. It was enlightening. It wasn't a cure all for all my foibles. It was a way of opening my eyes to certain unresolved bitterness.

Momentus and Vision Quest and the like are good for some, not so good for others. I don't think you would be able to handle it well. Doesn't make you better or worse than me or anybody else. This kind of training just isn't right for you.

And Christ is for all that believe, so how about showing us where Christ is in the programs. In the programs for all to see and not just some.

BTW, vultures don't move in for the kill at any sign of weakness. They are carcass critters, you know bone-pickers and I personally see more bone-picking from the CES/STFI leaders.......

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When I first heard about Momentous here in Texas, I was told that there would be a hold harmless agreement to sign before I put any money down. (Of course, it was couple of friends that were presenting the class to me and they were trying to be real honest.) I never took Momentous, but that was for other reasons - I simply didn't like what came out of the mouths of those who had been through it. I saw a lot of arrogance and a lot of folks thinking they were somehow superior for having gone through that class. Cliques formed among those that had been.

It was simply not how I wanted to be after TWI.

Simply put - there are no quick answers. I'm always stunned and amazed that people claim to follow Jesus and then want to put folks through some seminar. I don't see seminars in the Bible. I see one on one communication. Of course, this takes so much more time and there is no money to be made. I'm not just talking about Momentous here. It's a practice that is rampant throughout Christianity.

I dunno, seems to me it's just wrong to put people through a "Bible mill."

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"I do not think you could handle it well".

reads like : Im ok with you not being as good at enlightenment as me.

one thing the off shoot folks HAVE learned and changed is how to put a spin on the arrogance that is for sure.

it is now ok to be less than and unable as long as you understand they are more able and can do it.

no more shunning for them eh?

the beast has grown into a super beast with better knowledge on how to insult and degrade with the smile .

twi didnt do pity to much, Ces has absolutely NONE, but they have a spin that SOUNDS like they might as long as your in YOUR proper place and they theirs.

one up and many down of course.

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[WordWolf in boldface.] ]

Hammer,

Yourself and a few others here at GS have the habit of wildly exaggerating and going over the top to cause destruction.

[caribousam,

Yourself and a few others have the habit of wild accusations and distractions when legitimate charges are made of

harmful practices at ces/stfi.]

Like vultures going in for the kill at any sign of weakness or error.
[Like unstable religious folk who must virulently attack any legitimate discourse that paints their denomination

in a negative light.]

So here is more fodder for you...Yep I went through the pillow exercise at Vision Quest. It was enlightening. It wasn't a cure all for all my foibles. It was a way of opening my eyes to certain unresolved bitterness.

[Thank you for confirming this was a standard practice-there's this "conspiracy of silence", one might go so

far as to call it-from many participants of Momentus.

As if they're hiding an esoteric religious ceremony from outsiders.]

Momentus and Vision Quest and the like are good for some, not so good for others.
[And a religious requirement to fast for a week is good for some-like the obese-

and not-so-good for others- those who were at a healthy weight.

And rain is good for some people- like farmers having a drought-

and not-so-good for others- those with too much rain.

Leaving aside the general statements,

the idea of a program that's good for some and HARMFUL for others (let's not pretend it isnt

by using weasel-wording) that is PUSHED-like Momentus was (and IS even after all that)-

is disturbing.

And if you are not disturbed that someone's pushing for your fellow Christians-

for whom Christ died-

to enter a program that will damage some of them considerably,

then SHAME ON YOU.

SHAME ON YOU for caring so little for the well-being of the little children,

the beloved brethren of all ages,

the venerable elders. ]

I don't think you would be able to handle it well.

[Ah, there goes the special caveat.

The program, once again, is not flawed.

It's only for REAL Christians "who can handle it."

vpw used the same excuse when he felt like yelling at people around grounds.

What's next-claiming it's God's Will that Christians be pummelled with psychologically-crippling

stress, and that's why it's in the program?]

Doesn't make you better or worse than me or anybody else. This kind of training just isn't right for you.

[Nice try taking back the caveat.

However, we've seen it LOTS of times already, whenever someone rabidly defends this program.

(Not every defender, just the rabid ones.)

"The program works fine, but if the Christian is flawed, they may break under pressure."

Find me a Christian, anywhere, who is not flawed.

I don't even think you were aware you used the stock defense-

otherwise you wouldn't have tried to take it back.]

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from http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/mom_psychtechniq.htm

"challenging, stressful, and/or generally uncomfortable... intense or emotional experience... anxiety and risk of dealing with the unfamiliar... disputes that may arise...may experience adverse consequences... feeling uncomfortable to a degree that you think is excessive...(The Momentus Trainings Course Outline and Questionnaire)

"...the rigor of the training could aggravate some mental conditions... ("Support Call Form")

" 5.... I may experience deep emotions and possibly emotional stress, anxiety, tears, physical discomfort, or exhaustion... 7. If I feel mental or physical discomfort or adverse effects during the TRAINING... 10.... any personal, physical, psychological or emotional injuries you may suffer as a result of the TRAINING.... 11. May contain risks of physical or psychological injury... (I) assume any and all such risks and dangers.12. ...personal, physical, psychological or emotional injuries, distress, or death arising from... 13....loss, damage or injury resulting from the negligence of MM... ("Hold Harmless Agreement")

"PHYSICAL discomfort"

"may contain risks of PHYSICAL or PSYCHOLOGICAL injury.."

anxiety..

hold harmless for DEATH arising from the "training"??

If any, I wonder how many have died.

Death arising from the training must be in the hold-harmless agreement for a reason.

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Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition..

Apply enough "pressure" to force a change..

"Are you ready to recant yet, brother?"

"Jeeves, bring the thumb screws.."

Only difference, in the good old U.S.A., people are required to pay, and sign a permission slip.

:biglaugh:

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"Jeeves, bring the thumb screws.."

:biglaugh:

Ham, I don't always agree with you, but you crack me up.

Yeah, this Momentus thing sounds sketchy at best. I did some prayer ministry sessions called Theophostic Prayer, on the other hand, which was very peaceful and wonderful and emotionally healing. It's basically a combination of counsel, prayer, meditation, listening for God's voice.... it was great. The Lord addressed a whole bunch of old lies in a matter of weeks that had been emotionally crippling me for 30 years.

Some tears, but no screaming. http://www.theophostic.com/ I checked it out before I did it. There were no legal forms involved or I would have said no thanks.

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Yep.. sketchy, at best..

Looks like a recipe for disaster- take people who by their own admission are not up to the par of professional psychologists, add a hold harmless agreement, and some "willing" victims.. bake for 3 days on high.. sheesh.

Some of the good guys around here, that have been through that pressure cooker- I highly doubt they were the ones to vote death their team mates in the lifeboat exercise.

To me, it looks more like an exercise in obnoxiousness and arrogance for those who were so inclined to begin with.

Just remove the rest of the "restraints"..

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"Jeeves, bring the thumb screws.."

:biglaugh:

Ham, I don't always agree with you, but you crack me up.

Yeah, this Momentus thing sounds sketchy at best. I did some prayer ministry sessions called Theophostic Prayer, on the other hand, which was very peaceful and wonderful and emotionally healing. It's basically a combination of counsel, prayer, meditation, listening for God's voice.... it was great. The Lord addressed a whole bunch of old lies in a matter of weeks that had been emotionally crippling me for 30 years.

Some tears, but no screaming. http://www.theophostic.com/ I checked it out before I did it. There were no legal forms involved or I would have said no thanks.

Hi holy smoke,

I think that a lot of the talk about Monmentus here has greatly exaggerated things like screaming, etc. My experience of the training was that there were some healing emotional releases for some...but no screaming that I can recall. Like your Theophostic Prayer, it was a way to bring healing by listening to God's voice and seeing God's spirit in action. God works in many ways, more than just through quiet counsel, meditation, and prayer. That stuff is all good, but what I'm saying is - don't put God in a box. He created life and a world that is incredibly diverse, and his ways to heal and nurture his people are also very diverse. IMHO.

CS

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Yep.. sketchy, at best..

Looks like a recipe for disaster- take people who by their own admission are not up to the par of professional psychologists, add a hold harmless agreement, and some "willing" victims.. bake for 3 days on high.. sheesh.

Some of the good guys around here, that have been through that pressure cooker- I highly doubt they were the ones to vote death their team mates in the lifeboat exercise.

To me, it looks more like an exercise in obnoxiousness and arrogance for those who were so inclined to begin with.

Just remove the rest of the "restraints"..

The exercises were to make people think about, among other things, life, our choices in life, and hte consequences of our choices. The life boat exercise wasn't my favorite, though it did make me think about what it means to "give my life to God" or "die for my brother/sister." But I didn't agree with some of the analysis afterward.

It seems that most people here think that the Momentus/Visoinm Quest training is generally bad or harmful. But that could just be part of the general way of thinking in the US that puts blame on others instead of being more concerned with taking responsibility for our own thoughts and actions. A lot of us have become a weak bunch of whining and complaining victims. The road I like is different...a road paved with forgiveness and forgiveness and forgiveness...not that I should or will be unaware of sin in me and around me, but as much as possible I'll strive to keep the multitude sin viruses from living in me.

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And Christ is for all that believe, so how about showing us where Christ is in the programs. In the programs for all to see and not just some.

BTW, vultures don't move in for the kill at any sign of weakness. They are carcass critters, you know bone-pickers and I personally see more bone-picking from the CES/STFI leaders.......

yo ducttape, Christ was all over the place in the training. Christ was not explicitly mentioned in the training pamphlet. The training was not reserved for Christians only. Most in the training were Christians.

So a couple questions for you - is it possible that there could exist types of training that are good for some, but for others - potentially hurtful ? If this is the case, is the training "bad?" Stop ranting and give this some thought....

GS - a land of whiners and complainers !!! (and now I'm becoming infected too!!!)

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I think that if a person experiences harm and damage from an event others say is healthy and personally fulfilling, then those who had a bad experience should speak up, loudly. That is, if they care about other humans who might have a similar damaging experience, and are on the cusp of a decision.

To me, to decide the experience was damaging because they weren't 'personally responsible' enough, to shut up about harmful things because they 'believed ' it into being, is further damage to that person, and to others down the road.

It takes those that do evil to others off the hook.

Saw alot of that in TWI--to speak about a problem, to be 'bitter' and 'negative' was worse than actually doing the evil to your brother.

Lots of wiggle room in 'sin,' seems to me.

Don't let the 'victim haters' shut you up!

Edited, as always, for typos.

Edited by Bramble
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The exercises were to make people think about, among other things, life, our choices in life, and hte consequences of our choices. The life boat exercise wasn't my favorite, though it did make me think about what it means to "give my life to God" or "die for my brother/sister." But I didn't agree with some of the analysis afterward.

It seems that most people here think that the Momentus/Visoinm Quest training is generally bad or harmful. But that could just be part of the general way of thinking in the US that puts blame on others instead of being more concerned with taking responsibility for our own thoughts and actions. A lot of us have become a weak bunch of whining and complaining victims. The road I like is different...a road paved with forgiveness and forgiveness and forgiveness...not that I should or will be unaware of sin in me and around me, but as much as possible I'll strive to keep the multitude sin viruses from living in me.

omg.

you really do think your better than the rest of mankind .

your so good you have to forgive so much.. because you strive to keep the multitude of sin viruses from living in you.

you can be an "us" as long as your aware you are better at forgiving , and you keep your sin in check.

so what does christ do for you?

or for that matter anyone becuase your the one who forgives??

you need a reality check dude.

your no more forgiving than the rest, your sin stinks just like the rest of mankind.

fall off your self made throne of righteousness and recognize what Jesus christ commands that we love one another and HE is the only one able to forgive anyone for sin by HIS blood.

again you slap Jesus and His Authority in the face with your constant competition of who HE is to all creation.

All knees bow to HIM , um not you .

it is by the very grace of God we can even know Jesus christ yet you write with you list of who is who and I did and he didnt just like the pharasee.

you see grace was not given to you or anyone with out a price and the price is not in what you do, it was by the DEATH of the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God.

your not Jesus stop pretending to be, something you read in a book . He did it you just lie and claim you can to. lololololol

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I think that if a person experiences harm and damage from an event others say is healthy and personally fulfilling, then those who had a bad experience should speak up, loudly. That is, if they care about other humans who might have a similar damaging experience, and are on the cusp of a decision.

To me, to decide the experience was damaging because they weren't 'personally responsible' enough, to shut up about harmful things because they 'believed ' it into being, is further damage to that person, and to others down the road.

It takes those that do evil to others off the hook.

Saw alot of that in TWI--to speak about a problem, to be 'bitter' and 'negative' was worse than actually doing the evil to your brother.

Lots of wiggle room in 'sin,' seems to me.

Don't let the 'victim haters' shut you up!

Edited, as always, for typos.

Speaking up is very important. Deciding who is repsonsible for evil is sometimes not easy. Ultimately we are all flawed and sinners. But the only way to grow is to take accountability, look honestly at our selves, and work towards better more godly ways of life.

Clearly there were TWI leaders who were nasty nasty leaders, and I'm certain that God and Jesus look at abuse by those in authority as a very serious matter.

Luckily I stayed basically on the fringes of TWI for about 7-9 years...I learned a lot, I learned to love God, Jesus, the Bible, and my fellow believers. It was the start of a life of very fruitful prayer, worship, and fellowship with God. But I never much liked the leadership style of many of the Way Corps folks - some were ok I guess, but a lot of them gave me the creeps...they were too much into controlling things, creating a model of God and godliness that just didn't line up with the purposes of Adonai. And not lining up with the right purposes moves the journey to places of ungodly desert or wilderness...after that, a lot of folks pull them selves together, figure things out, and search for greener pastures and true fellowhip. At least that's what I did.

-CS

Edited by caribousam
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why do you use the word adonai?

it is hebrew for God or LORD.

do you not like using our common name? or is it to prove you know a hebrew word that many may not in the course of words and you have again the education beyond their typical understanding

what is your reason to complicate knowing the LORD?

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why do you use the word adonai?

it is hebrew for God or LORD.

do you not like using our common name? or is it to prove you know a hebrew word that many may not in the course of words and you have again the education beyond their typical understanding

what is your reason to complicate knowing the LORD?

Pond please call Dr Phil!!!!!!

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I was looking at one of the websites.. these guys don't give up. The guys that run the thing argue something to the effect of, "well, you weren't part of the "training", so you don't have the right to say anything".

Is that so?

Do I need to drink cyanide before I am "privileged" enough to know it is poison? I do have some chemistry background, and that does qualify me to comment, without drinking it first.

They even suggested to their critics, "take the training.. go see for yourself"

Some already did.. some of the former "customers" are among the worst critics..

A potential critic would have to sign the hold harmless waiver. Hmmm, wonder what kind of "treatment" they'd get..

No sign? Well, maybe you're not willing to *trust* your "trainers"..

Sign mine first. I'll bring a few "associates" along with me, if you don't mind..

:biglaugh:

Edited by Mr. Hammeroni
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maybe they have been sued.

the fact is if they have a waiver they are thinking something could go wrong and they could be blamed, in a court of law.

and it weeds out those who do not want to comply from the get go .

not suppose to have issues with leaders ya know.

and even if you do well hell no they cant be held accountable to anyone or thing for YOUR issues.

they are right your are wrong and do not show up if you think any different.

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...GS - a land of whiners and complainers !!! (and now I'm becoming infected too!!!)

In my opinion anyone who has ever been associated with any offshoots, derivatives, or wannabes of TWI have already been infected to some degree with either erroneous doctrine, practices, mindset or a combination thereof. What I used to think was complaining on GSC I now view as an activated thinking process free of group constraints. I imagine this particular open forum might appear somewhat chaotic or unruly – that may be – but I think it’s therapeutic for anyone formerly associated with a group that fosters groupthink, manipulation, mind-control, etc.

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GS - a land of whiners and complainers !!! (and now I'm becoming infected too!!!)

"In my opinion anyone who has ever been associated with any offshoots, derivatives, or wannabes of TWI have already been infected to some degree with either erroneous doctrine, practices, mindset or a combination thereof. What I used to think was complaining on GSC I now view as an activated thinking process free of group constraints. I imagine this particular open forum might appear somewhat chaotic or unruly – that may be – but I think it’s therapeutic for anyone formerly associated with a group that fosters groupthink, manipulation, mind-control, etc. "

Wow - well put T-Bone.... :eusa_clap:

With all due respect, to call GS a land of whiners and complainers to me seems somewhat harsh. I think like all of us we ended up here because we wanted to find a safe place to vent our anger, frustration and perhaps even pain. All of us (or maybe most of us?) share a common thread, in that we placed our trust in something that ended up being very tramatic for many of us. And now we are seeing some of those same things occuring with the ongoing turmoil within CES. On a personal note, I have found everybody here to be incredibly respectful and quite welcoming, and it's nice to be able to express yourself and know that it wont get thrown back in your face - especially with what most of us had experienced in the past where it wasnt ok to speak your mind.

Ok, thats enough 'kissing up' for me.... :biglaugh:

Edited by Michael B.
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Please explain to me what the Whole Momentus thing is all about? Is it specifically a Christian thing, or a pyschological thing? How does it fit in with the Bible?

Love always in Christ,

Joe

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