I saw it a while ago. It was really creepy. I remember being in rez. when that all happened. I really don't think TWI with all its problems was ever on that level of evil, all those hundreds of people dead.
I was especially moved to pray for Jim Jones' son. He seems to be a sensible guy with a huge load of guilt to deal with and a great need for a loving Saviour to heal and comfort him. I'd love to hear that he got saved.
I saw it a while ago. It was really creepy. I remember being in rez. when that all happened. I really don't think TWI with all its problems was ever on that level of evil, all those hundreds of people dead.
I was especially moved to pray for Jim Jones' son. He seems to be a sensible guy with a huge load of guilt to deal with and a great need for a loving Saviour to heal and comfort him. I'd love to hear that he got saved.
I've seen it before also. And I also remember being at Emporia when Jonestown all went down. I clearly remember Martindale telling us about it and warning that we'd be considered by many people (and he indicated it would be a false image that people would have of us) to be such a cult.
The fact of the matter, even though Wrdsandwrks, twi probably was not nearly that evil, the social structures of twi were strikingly parallel to what Jim Jones had set up. AND, over the course of Martindale's "reign" as MOG, that absolutist social structure apparently grew worse than it was when we (those of us who left after the Geer revealed the Passing of the Patriarch document) left.
AND the fact that it WAS such an authoritarian "community" means that it could have gotten as bad... for anyone who would have stayed when someone like Martindale (hypothetically) would have snapped as bad as Jones. And from the stories that have emerged over the last ten years (before now), he was likely headed for that kind of mental/emotional breakdown.
I took PFAL for the first time in October. The next month the murder-suicides happened in Jonestown. I remember concerned friends talking to me about my involvement with TWI, and me being all light-hearted saying, "Well, if they offer me kool-aid, I won't drink it."
Many of us thought that way, Vegan....too many of us.
I saw that show a while back and remember being saddened by the folks who didn't want to drink the kool-aid, but it was too late by the time the kool-aid came out. Not to mention that they couldn't have left before then even if they wanted to.
If TWI had made the call for all to come to HQ for something important immediately, how many of us would have jumped on the first plane to get there? I know my ex and I would have with no questions asked. *shaking head*
The most disturbing thing I saw in the program was the people who STILL, even after losing their whole families, their homes, their savings, their whole life, even after all that, here some 30 years after the fact, they're STILL making excuses for it and waxing nostalgic about how good it could have been - if only...
Jesus, Mary and Joseph, what is it about cultthink that is so hard to shake? The People's Temple was an insane joke, as was (is) WayWorld, Scientology, The Moonies, the JWs, all of it. It's all a perverse waste of humanity...
Saw the last half (I think) of the show tonight. I had never known all that went on. Crazy scary stuff. Just mind boggling. The most messed up part to me was that it looked like they made the kids, even babies, drink first. Then after some of them watched their kids die, foaming at the mouth, they still went and drank the koolaid. WTF!
The other think that struck me was the common but incorrect idea that they could come and go as they pleased. Once the word got out that the reporters heard this was not so, suddenly there were a lot of others wanting to go.
I saw this last night, and it was very well done. To everyone who thinks they saw it before, I think we might be getting it mixed up with the tons of other Jonestown stuff that has been shown. I know the History Channel showed a couple of documentaries recently. But I believe this special is brand spanking new.
There was footage I've never seen before. And it looked like it could have happened just a few years ago. Most of the footage I've seen in the other Jonestown documentaries were grainy and dated looking. Not so with this. It really brought it alive for you.
My heart went out to those survivors who lost their loved ones. And what really bugged me was the audio of the little old lady who was telling Jim that she wanted to go home and see her son and her family in California before Christmas and Jones absolutely humiliated her and shouted her down. Then he asked her if she still wanted to go see her family. And she said in this little trembling weak voice."no" And he said something to the effect of "Then sit down and shut your mouth and don't bother me again." It was heartbreaking.
It will be rerun again several times in this upcoming week I believe, according to my local PBS schedule.
The show opened up with Jim Jones saying, "Its Christ in you, the hope of glory." Where did I hear that before?
It was a very good show. I learned so much. I didn't know he had a church in Indianapolis, my hometown, or that he and his wife were the first white couple to adopt a black child in Indiana, or that he was well respected in the political world, at least while he lived in the states.
I liked their band too, Rottie!
There was someone toward the end of the show who said she wondered if all the good things he did in the beginning was just a way to gain power, to get what he wanted.
When the babies were taken from their mothers, the mothers would weep, and Jim Jones said not to cry, let them die with dignity. The people weren't allowed to express their own emotion even at the end.
I watched the entire program and thought it was very well done. It was hauntingly eerie and left me with chills and reminders of so many of our discussions/dissections of our own personal cult experiences.
I thought PBS did a good job of providing a solid context of regional religious influences (1950s tent ministries, the 1960s disillusionment with mainstream religion, etc.), the idealism that came out of the 60s that effected, not just youth, but a diverse group of people who really wanted "more"; wanted to reverse the injustices of the past, who felt like a better society - - the "heaven on earth" references (which really creeped me out) - - was possible.
There was a lot I had forgotten about the story's timeline (and my own "parallel universe" of sorts that was following a very similar timeline and pattern!) . I forgot how early on Jim Jones started the People's Temple. I knew about his Indiana area stint (living here in Indy, the house they occupied was thought to be haunted and was left vacant for years), but didn't realize his group was so racially mixed and what had prompted the move to NoCal. I remembered quite a bit of the Calif. story (interesting recounting of the number of hours worked, the number of meetings, etc. and how exhausted they were until they "could not think for themselves...it was easier for Jim to think for us..." Scary!). The interview of Deborah Layton (the young girl who Jones "did" in the back of the bus) - - what he said to her, what he said about the "privilege", what his wife could not provide him with - - wow, was that a MOG script from the time or what???? I can't even imagine one of our ex-twi "MOG" motorcoach victims being able to watch that scene.
I had totally forgotten after all these years, about Congressman Ryan. Wow, to see that footage and Jones' paranoia by that point, the fear of the people to speak up, the repercussions when they did speak up, the man's story who slipped the note to the reporter (then watched his wife and baby die - - WOW! Shocking!) - - very disturbing....the agitation of the entire group as people voiced the desire to leave. I remember reading that Ryan was shot by members, but the footage that was preserved and so well presented really made an impact.
I think the most haunting part of the entire program was the ending - - the letter read that the female member wrote (knowing she was probably going to die there) - - and her chilling warning to preserved all the records, the tapes, all the footage as a testimony and so the story was not forgotten.
And yes, I agree with you George. Somewhere there is a line that is majorly crossed between a well-intentioned idealism of sorts and where it goes seriously wrong, abusive, and controlling into paranoid insanity a la this group, David Koresh, and twi, etc. Much to think about and digest.
I remember when this creep had the Peoples Temple going in Indpls. I lived there at the time, too. As I recall, quite a few African-Americans were going to his church. And didn't he have a radio or television spot as well?
I was never the least bit interested, thinking he was some weirdo. But he was advertised and always in the news, it seemed. I just don't recall any more than that.
No wonder my parents were so upset when I started going to TWI - they probably remembered all the Jim Jones crap from Indianapolis and shuddered.
Lots of similarities, lots of differences but all in all the parallels are like a glass of cold water in the face.
I don't remember where I heard this, but someone who was close to the aftermath reported that a large percentage of the deaths were caused by gunshot rather than poison. I can't verify that. I'll have to try to remember where I heard that.
One thing that really struck me was the invisibility of the inner circle of militants he had hiding in the wings just waiting for orders to be given. It was like they came out of nowhere at the drop of a hat to attack the plane. I found myself wondering if the rank and file knew of this inner group and if they knew how extreme the measures were that they were ready to carry out.
The sleep deprivation, the long hours, the isolationism, the directives not to discuss or consider or voice disagreement; it was all there. More extreme and tragic on a large scale than TWI but who knows what changes a few more years might have brought?
I remember,too, how smug we felt that this "could never happen" to our precious TWI. We were far too tapped into the source for that to be possible.
I watched it and it reminded me alot of twi's mindset and culture. There were a few years, most notably from '94-'04 that I felt twi was heading in that direction. Thankfully your common sense prevailed and that didn't happen.
I posted some comments about this program over on the Way section, not realizing this one was already going...
The production date on this particular show is 2007, so I agree it is brand-spankin-new. I know I've never seen the interviews and comments from people who were really there like this, and I've certainly never heard Jim Jones' own taped megaphone rants.
What really struck me was just how many of the comments could have come from almost any ex-wayfer... how things started so well and the activities seemed to fresh and alive and different and spiritual. And how, as things got screwy, they knew things weren't right but they said and did nothing hoping it would get better. And how everyone was trained to report any form of rule-breaking or rebellion so as to protect the group. And how when Jim Jones told the group in Jonestown they were free to leave, those were his words, but his meaning was clearly "if you leave, it's a betrayal".
I saw those same similarities and I got chills too, we dodged the big one folks that is the fricking honest truth.
M
Craig was Vic's disciple, so were alot of other men. I feel each of them saw things that were incongrous with Christian beliefs but for the most part were willing to accept this abberant christian behavior as an opportunity for them to learn grace and move the word. I think what misled them all was the idea of grace as a be all do all covering device that negates the cost of sin, such is not so dear friend it merely covers it and passes it on to the next generation.
I, too, watched with my jaw dropped. I new this story and had defended my involvement in TWI against people who tried to draw the comparison at the time. We would NEVER die for the ministry ... we were told that was wrong. We needed to LIVE for it. Then in 1997 I heard the co-campus coordinator of Indiana state, from the head-table so it is probably still on some tape, that we should be willing to die for this ministry. It gave me the creeps ... because at the time I knew that LCM seemed to be going south mentally - screaming his lungs out over little chocolate gifts our parents might send us for valentines' day, etc., how he'd spend days in a darkened room, sweating it out while he stood in the "gap" for the world, and then would emerge drained after the spiritual battle had been won, because of our (his) intercession. I, too, think we were on the verge. I don't get the sense that those still "in" are in that danger today, though.
"It gave me the creeps ... because at the time I knew that LCM seemed to be going south mentally - screaming his lungs out over little chocolate gifts our parents might send us for valentines' day, etc., how he'd spend days in a darkened room, sweating it out while he stood in the "gap" for the world, and then would emerge drained after the spiritual battle had been won, because of our (his) intercession."
I never heard about this, He sat in a darkened room doing what? Was he wrestling with....Himself? Please tell me more, hearing he went down this road opens up something I never knew of or considered before.
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ChasUFarley
PBS is airing that in my area, too. It's been on before, I believe, but yes, it is very scary... and sorta hits home... :(
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waysider
It is airing in the Central Ohio area as well.
A co-worker of mine, who was in a cult very similar to TWI, has already seen it and given it a thumbs up.
Sidenote: Whodda thunk there coulda been another cult like TWI?
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bfh
PBS is airing it in my area too.
I watched the videos of the survivors on the website and the stories they tell are eerily familiar. The similarities to TWI are chilling.
I thought this was a great quote (from the website):
"Nobody joins a cult. Nobody joins something they believe is going to hurt them."
-Deborah Layton, member of Peoples Temple
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wrdsandwrks
I saw it a while ago. It was really creepy. I remember being in rez. when that all happened. I really don't think TWI with all its problems was ever on that level of evil, all those hundreds of people dead.
I was especially moved to pray for Jim Jones' son. He seems to be a sensible guy with a huge load of guilt to deal with and a great need for a loving Saviour to heal and comfort him. I'd love to hear that he got saved.
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Rocky
I've seen it before also. And I also remember being at Emporia when Jonestown all went down. I clearly remember Martindale telling us about it and warning that we'd be considered by many people (and he indicated it would be a false image that people would have of us) to be such a cult.
The fact of the matter, even though Wrdsandwrks, twi probably was not nearly that evil, the social structures of twi were strikingly parallel to what Jim Jones had set up. AND, over the course of Martindale's "reign" as MOG, that absolutist social structure apparently grew worse than it was when we (those of us who left after the Geer revealed the Passing of the Patriarch document) left.
AND the fact that it WAS such an authoritarian "community" means that it could have gotten as bad... for anyone who would have stayed when someone like Martindale (hypothetically) would have snapped as bad as Jones. And from the stories that have emerged over the last ten years (before now), he was likely headed for that kind of mental/emotional breakdown.
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GarthP2000
Actually, her logic is flawed. One can 'join a cult', even if they dont' realize the hurt they are unknowingly going to go thru.
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VeganXTC
I took PFAL for the first time in October. The next month the murder-suicides happened in Jonestown. I remember concerned friends talking to me about my involvement with TWI, and me being all light-hearted saying, "Well, if they offer me kool-aid, I won't drink it."
It amazes me how stupid I was.
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Belle
Many of us thought that way, Vegan....too many of us.
I saw that show a while back and remember being saddened by the folks who didn't want to drink the kool-aid, but it was too late by the time the kool-aid came out. Not to mention that they couldn't have left before then even if they wanted to.
If TWI had made the call for all to come to HQ for something important immediately, how many of us would have jumped on the first plane to get there? I know my ex and I would have with no questions asked. *shaking head*
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dmiller
It's airing in here in southern Indiana too.
I've seen parts of it before, but not the whole thing.
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George Aar
The most disturbing thing I saw in the program was the people who STILL, even after losing their whole families, their homes, their savings, their whole life, even after all that, here some 30 years after the fact, they're STILL making excuses for it and waxing nostalgic about how good it could have been - if only...
Jesus, Mary and Joseph, what is it about cultthink that is so hard to shake? The People's Temple was an insane joke, as was (is) WayWorld, Scientology, The Moonies, the JWs, all of it. It's all a perverse waste of humanity...
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lindyhopper
Saw the last half (I think) of the show tonight. I had never known all that went on. Crazy scary stuff. Just mind boggling. The most messed up part to me was that it looked like they made the kids, even babies, drink first. Then after some of them watched their kids die, foaming at the mouth, they still went and drank the koolaid. WTF!
The other think that struck me was the common but incorrect idea that they could come and go as they pleased. Once the word got out that the reporters heard this was not so, suddenly there were a lot of others wanting to go.
That one strikes a chord for me with wayworld.
The whole thing was really sickening.
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RottieGrrrl
I saw this last night, and it was very well done. To everyone who thinks they saw it before, I think we might be getting it mixed up with the tons of other Jonestown stuff that has been shown. I know the History Channel showed a couple of documentaries recently. But I believe this special is brand spanking new.
There was footage I've never seen before. And it looked like it could have happened just a few years ago. Most of the footage I've seen in the other Jonestown documentaries were grainy and dated looking. Not so with this. It really brought it alive for you.
My heart went out to those survivors who lost their loved ones. And what really bugged me was the audio of the little old lady who was telling Jim that she wanted to go home and see her son and her family in California before Christmas and Jones absolutely humiliated her and shouted her down. Then he asked her if she still wanted to go see her family. And she said in this little trembling weak voice."no" And he said something to the effect of "Then sit down and shut your mouth and don't bother me again." It was heartbreaking.
It will be rerun again several times in this upcoming week I believe, according to my local PBS schedule.
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RottieGrrrl
They also have some deleted scenes on the PBS website which are worth checking out. Thanks for the heads up on this Vegan!
BTW, I do have to say, the Peoples Temple did have one rocken band. Talented people.
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VeganXTC
The show opened up with Jim Jones saying, "Its Christ in you, the hope of glory." Where did I hear that before?
It was a very good show. I learned so much. I didn't know he had a church in Indianapolis, my hometown, or that he and his wife were the first white couple to adopt a black child in Indiana, or that he was well respected in the political world, at least while he lived in the states.
I liked their band too, Rottie!
There was someone toward the end of the show who said she wondered if all the good things he did in the beginning was just a way to gain power, to get what he wanted.
When the babies were taken from their mothers, the mothers would weep, and Jim Jones said not to cry, let them die with dignity. The people weren't allowed to express their own emotion even at the end.
So very, very sad.
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jardinero
I watched the entire program and thought it was very well done. It was hauntingly eerie and left me with chills and reminders of so many of our discussions/dissections of our own personal cult experiences.
I thought PBS did a good job of providing a solid context of regional religious influences (1950s tent ministries, the 1960s disillusionment with mainstream religion, etc.), the idealism that came out of the 60s that effected, not just youth, but a diverse group of people who really wanted "more"; wanted to reverse the injustices of the past, who felt like a better society - - the "heaven on earth" references (which really creeped me out) - - was possible.
There was a lot I had forgotten about the story's timeline (and my own "parallel universe" of sorts that was following a very similar timeline and pattern!) . I forgot how early on Jim Jones started the People's Temple. I knew about his Indiana area stint (living here in Indy, the house they occupied was thought to be haunted and was left vacant for years), but didn't realize his group was so racially mixed and what had prompted the move to NoCal. I remembered quite a bit of the Calif. story (interesting recounting of the number of hours worked, the number of meetings, etc. and how exhausted they were until they "could not think for themselves...it was easier for Jim to think for us..." Scary!). The interview of Deborah Layton (the young girl who Jones "did" in the back of the bus) - - what he said to her, what he said about the "privilege", what his wife could not provide him with - - wow, was that a MOG script from the time or what???? I can't even imagine one of our ex-twi "MOG" motorcoach victims being able to watch that scene.
I had totally forgotten after all these years, about Congressman Ryan. Wow, to see that footage and Jones' paranoia by that point, the fear of the people to speak up, the repercussions when they did speak up, the man's story who slipped the note to the reporter (then watched his wife and baby die - - WOW! Shocking!) - - very disturbing....the agitation of the entire group as people voiced the desire to leave. I remember reading that Ryan was shot by members, but the footage that was preserved and so well presented really made an impact.
I think the most haunting part of the entire program was the ending - - the letter read that the female member wrote (knowing she was probably going to die there) - - and her chilling warning to preserved all the records, the tapes, all the footage as a testimony and so the story was not forgotten.
And yes, I agree with you George. Somewhere there is a line that is majorly crossed between a well-intentioned idealism of sorts and where it goes seriously wrong, abusive, and controlling into paranoid insanity a la this group, David Koresh, and twi, etc. Much to think about and digest.
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outandabout
Deborah Layton wrote a book entitled "Seductive Poison." I read it a few months ago and it's really good.
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washingtonweather
It reminds me of the way to kill a frog.
You cannot put it in scalding hot water - it will jump right out.
You put it in cold water and slowly turn up the heat - before it knows it - its dead.
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Watered Garden
I remember when this creep had the Peoples Temple going in Indpls. I lived there at the time, too. As I recall, quite a few African-Americans were going to his church. And didn't he have a radio or television spot as well?
I was never the least bit interested, thinking he was some weirdo. But he was advertised and always in the news, it seemed. I just don't recall any more than that.
No wonder my parents were so upset when I started going to TWI - they probably remembered all the Jim Jones crap from Indianapolis and shuddered.
WG
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waysider
Lots of similarities, lots of differences but all in all the parallels are like a glass of cold water in the face.
I don't remember where I heard this, but someone who was close to the aftermath reported that a large percentage of the deaths were caused by gunshot rather than poison. I can't verify that. I'll have to try to remember where I heard that.
One thing that really struck me was the invisibility of the inner circle of militants he had hiding in the wings just waiting for orders to be given. It was like they came out of nowhere at the drop of a hat to attack the plane. I found myself wondering if the rank and file knew of this inner group and if they knew how extreme the measures were that they were ready to carry out.
The sleep deprivation, the long hours, the isolationism, the directives not to discuss or consider or voice disagreement; it was all there. More extreme and tragic on a large scale than TWI but who knows what changes a few more years might have brought?
I remember,too, how smug we felt that this "could never happen" to our precious TWI. We were far too tapped into the source for that to be possible.
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herbiejuan
I watched it and it reminded me alot of twi's mindset and culture. There were a few years, most notably from '94-'04 that I felt twi was heading in that direction. Thankfully your common sense prevailed and that didn't happen.
:)
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TheHighWay
I posted some comments about this program over on the Way section, not realizing this one was already going...
The production date on this particular show is 2007, so I agree it is brand-spankin-new. I know I've never seen the interviews and comments from people who were really there like this, and I've certainly never heard Jim Jones' own taped megaphone rants.
What really struck me was just how many of the comments could have come from almost any ex-wayfer... how things started so well and the activities seemed to fresh and alive and different and spiritual. And how, as things got screwy, they knew things weren't right but they said and did nothing hoping it would get better. And how everyone was trained to report any form of rule-breaking or rebellion so as to protect the group. And how when Jim Jones told the group in Jonestown they were free to leave, those were his words, but his meaning was clearly "if you leave, it's a betrayal".
Whew... gave me chills.
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herbiejuan
I saw those same similarities and I got chills too, we dodged the big one folks that is the fricking honest truth.
M
Craig was Vic's disciple, so were alot of other men. I feel each of them saw things that were incongrous with Christian beliefs but for the most part were willing to accept this abberant christian behavior as an opportunity for them to learn grace and move the word. I think what misled them all was the idea of grace as a be all do all covering device that negates the cost of sin, such is not so dear friend it merely covers it and passes it on to the next generation.
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Happyasaclam
I, too, watched with my jaw dropped. I new this story and had defended my involvement in TWI against people who tried to draw the comparison at the time. We would NEVER die for the ministry ... we were told that was wrong. We needed to LIVE for it. Then in 1997 I heard the co-campus coordinator of Indiana state, from the head-table so it is probably still on some tape, that we should be willing to die for this ministry. It gave me the creeps ... because at the time I knew that LCM seemed to be going south mentally - screaming his lungs out over little chocolate gifts our parents might send us for valentines' day, etc., how he'd spend days in a darkened room, sweating it out while he stood in the "gap" for the world, and then would emerge drained after the spiritual battle had been won, because of our (his) intercession. I, too, think we were on the verge. I don't get the sense that those still "in" are in that danger today, though.
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Out There
"It gave me the creeps ... because at the time I knew that LCM seemed to be going south mentally - screaming his lungs out over little chocolate gifts our parents might send us for valentines' day, etc., how he'd spend days in a darkened room, sweating it out while he stood in the "gap" for the world, and then would emerge drained after the spiritual battle had been won, because of our (his) intercession."
I never heard about this, He sat in a darkened room doing what? Was he wrestling with....Himself? Please tell me more, hearing he went down this road opens up something I never knew of or considered before.
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