"Either God works in me or he doesn't!"

[shortfuse]

This was the bottom line for Craig. He liked to claim he could always give good solid reasons for his decisions, but in the end he pretty much fell back on the claim that it was all by revelation. If it's by revelation, who are you to argue with God?! And if there is any question as to whether or not it was really instruction from God, "Look, either God works in me or he doesn't!"

D'oh

It's so obvious in hindsight.

This is another line I've heard repeated by many an LCM emulator.

[Bolshevik]

What about the rest of leadership. They had this great connection too.

Even worse I think is the pressure put on husbands and fathers to have this "God works in me to chose what we'll have for breakfast" nonsense. It just supresses the wife and kids and ruins what could have been a family.

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

Even worse I think is the pressure put on husbands and fathers to have this "God works in me to chose what we'll have for breakfast" nonsense. It just supresses the wife and kids and ruins what could have been a family.

Isn't that disgusting Bolshevik? It assumes that there is a spiritually perfect thing to do in any given situation. And since your leaders are more spiritually sharp than you are, surely they will know what God would have me to do for my life. And because you know how screwed up your own life is, you think, "Well, they are the leadership and have it more together than I do". In reality, they were just as screwed up as the rest of us.

Hmmm, maybe when I go to the bathroom this morning I should wipe to the right side, seeing as the right side is the side of blessing and all. Oh look, God's tellin' me we shouldn't go to McDonald's tonight. And before you know it, it's, "God told me to say to you...".

I think a lot of people live in this spiritual fantasy land waiting to hear from God moment by moment, when in reality, revelation comes rarely. For the most part, God "leaves you alone" in life, leaving you free to experience your life and have good times.

He may call on you occasionally or may have something to say, and when he does, you'll know it. Other than that, you're free to live your life, something I'm sure many Christians would never dare believe. Some would have us think God expects us to be on some sort of intense, heightened state of alert, always trying to "tune in" to God's will and ward of any devil spirits that may be around.

This is Christian mysticism.

Lone Wolf McQuade

[Jim]

The more I read this crap, the more certain I am.

By the grace of God we didn't turn into a Jonestown.

[Bolshevik]

I just remembered, one time, I think it was a Sunday Serive, lcm yelling about how his decisions can get misguided based upon the belief of the cabinet members. He said something about how if just one cabinet member doesn't believe, he won't get revelation.

Talk about skirting responsibility.

Edited April 19, 2007 by Bolshevik

[Jeaniam]

Isn't that disgusting Bolshevik? It assumes that there is a spiritually perfect thing to do in any given situation. And since your leaders are more spiritually sharp than you are, surely they will know what God would have me to do for my life. And because you know how screwed up your own life is, you think, "Well, they are the leadership and have it more together than I do". In reality, they were just as screwed up as the rest of us.

Hmmm, maybe when I go to the bathroom this morning I should wipe to the right side, seeing as the right side is the side of blessing and all. Oh look, God's tellin' me we shouldn't go to McDonald's tonight. And before you know it, it's, "God told me to say to you...".

I think a lot of people live in this spiritual fantasy land waiting to hear from God moment by moment, when in reality, revelation comes rarely. For the most part, God "leaves you alone" in life, leaving you free to experience your life and have good times.

He may call on you occasionally or may have something to say, and when he does, you'll know it. Other than that, you're free to live your life, something I'm sure many Christians would never dare believe. Some would have us think God expects us to be on some sort of intense, heightened state of alert, always trying to "tune in" to God's will and ward of any devil spirits that may be around.

This is Christian mysticism.

Lone Wolf McQuade

I have heard it taught that those people who constantly claim that God is giving them moment by moment revelation on how to live life are people who are getting it wrong. As you say, Lone Wolf, direct revelation comes rarely. But God has given us a 'rule book', the Bible, which is in itself revelation from God that has been written down.

Thanks, Bolshevik, for your post. I really don't think God cares very much in this day and time what anyone has for breakfast.

Edited April 21, 2007 by Jeaniam

[Through the Looking Glass]

Breakfast aside.... there are equally important matters like big waterballoons over deserts and covered bridges to promised lands.... "Look, either God works in me or he doesn't!"

[Bolshevik]

Breakfast aside.... there are equally important matters like big waterballoons over deserts and covered bridges to promised lands.... "Look, either God works in me or he doesn't!"

please explain, no comprende

[WordWolf]

I have heard it taught that those people who constantly claim that God is giving them moment by moment revelation on how to live life are people who are getting it wrong. As you say, Lone Wolf, direct revelation comes rarely. But God has given us a 'rule book', the Bible, which is in itself revelation from God that has been written down.

Thanks, Bolshevik, for your post. I really don't think God cares very much in this day and time what anyone has for breakfast.

I would agree with this.

I would not discount God giving revelation at any PARTICULAR moment, as sometimes

what seems like a trivial detail may later prove to have been critical

(I'm thinking of my own life here, some time ago),

but the idea that someone's "channelling" Heavy Revelation 24/7 is just plain preposterous.

God gave you a brain to use.

I mean, if something's up with the breakfast, He may say something, but otherwise,

you and your shredded wheat are on your own.

[likeaneagle]

For years as they passed by, I saw the noose growing tighter around husbands and the fathers..The doctrine became very choking for the women too..It 's the was taught that the women carry the heart to the family...so when the doctrine became so stiffling I saw family's becoming more robotic and it lacked the luster im sure God wanted..the men became strickened instead of carrying on in a normal sence of his god given abilities,therefore a life of real quality

..awee you married ones didnt know we singles could see it..

[Jeaniam]

For years as they passed by, I saw the noose growing tighter around husbands and the fathers..The doctrine became very choking for the women too..It 's the was taught that the women carry the heart to the family...so when the doctrine became so stiffling I saw family's becoming more robotic and it lacked the luster im sure God wanted..the men became strickened instead of carrying on in a normal sence of his god given abilities,therefore a life of real quality

..awee you married ones didnt know we singles could see it..

That's very true. There was a time late in our involvement when we were held in contempt as a couple because I knew what size tires were on the car, and John was capable of changing a diaper. I had friends who were afraid to leave their children with their own husbands at the ROA lest they should be accused of being ungodly.

WordWolf, you and I agreeing on something!!! Say it ain't so.

Edited April 21, 2007 by Jeaniam

[Oakspear]

Either God works in me or he doesn't....the old false dilemma. And you couldn't say that God didn't work in him, because then, why were you following him?

TWI leadership was adept at using the false dilemma to stifle arguments and questions.

[Sushi]

The more I read this crap, the more certain I am.

By the grace of God we didn't turn into a Jonestown.

I truly hope I'm wrong about this, but I'm not altogether certain TWI won't, at some point in the future. If you've ever seen the movie "Taps", I think it will put you in touch with the mindset of the 'hardcore' TWI'ers. When I saw it, it scared the s*** out of me (which, btw, is no mean feat).

[Through the Looking Glass]

please explain, no comprende

Sorry. I was just agreeing that in retrospect all the "revelation" was just so bogus.

Oakspear got the point across better with

Either God works in me or he doesn't....the old false dilemma. And you couldn't say that God didn't work in him, because then, why were you following him?

TWI leadership was adept at using the false dilemma to stifle arguments and questions.

[washingtonweather]

And the fact it was couched in the "obedience blackmail" leverage made it harder to suspect God did not work in him at the time.

[Listener]

Looking back on those years when I was in, and thinking about this topic, I have come to the realization that...

over time, leaders began to believe that their normal human thoughts were, in reality, revelation. Delusional, i think. (sp?)

I recall vp becoming more and more angry when any resistance to his statements was encountered.

As time went by, his patience shortened, reproof became very hurtful, and access to him, without appointment, became rarer and rarer.

LCM learned this extra well, since his mental disposition lent itself to mindless imitation. In his attempt to further

the "goals of the ministry", he just intensified the emphasis on doing what he saw vp do when times got tough...beat up on the

lowest level believers.

I didn't know lcm as well as I knew vp, but they both seemed to believe that their thoughts were always revelation.

You know, the old "first thought is from God" crap. I remember being taught that, and was always analyzing which thought actually came first!

What a waste of energy and time that was. What a waste of energy and time THEY were!

[excathedra]

ok

cut to the chase

they were insane

[Listener]

To my way of thinking, if God was truly giving revelation about all this stuff to me, why should I care how people react to it. If God said it, it's going to happen, or be true, no matter what. I should just relax and speak, knowing God would cause His Word to come to pass. My rantings aren't going to make a hill of beans difference.

Of course, the reality was that they weren't speaking for anyone but themselves...God and His love seemed like the furthest things from their minds.

Exie, I love how you cut to the chase! Yes, insane and reprobate.

[excathedra]

i mean, you said the word "love"

that's what i'm talking about

jeez

they wouldn't know love if it ran up and punched them in the eye (ha)

and GOD IS LOVE

so what is all this crap about ??????

[GrouchoMarxJr]

ok

cut to the chase

they were insane

Bingo...

[doojable]

I'd say that too many times it wasn't "first thought" at work because that would imply there was a thought in the first place.

And we all know there were no second thoughts following - hard to think when your head is up your arse and stuffed with sh)t.

[Jeaniam]

Someone once taught me that when you have your mind well furnished with the written Word (line upon line, verse upon verse, horizontally and vertically, like a brick wall) genuine revelation is that which comes in diagonally or across the grain. I don't really believe it's possible to receive revelation 24/7. I don't think God cares that much about when you do your grocery shopping or when you do your laundry.