Guess you oughtta read the entire thread to see how it evolved to that before making up your mind then eh fella?
I guess you outta read what I actually say instead saying what you think I said. I haven't made up my mind. If I did that I wouldn't have said "I guess I'm going to have to read the whole thread . . . ."
If you didn`t notice there were two parts to the thread title...*and DO you still believe it* :)
Most of the discussion has been as it pertains to the second part of the question and why.
Knowing why would be interesting to learn. I suppose.
I guess when people behave in a totally reprehensible manner and resort to personal attacks then they can tend to inspire the disgust voiced in the afor mentioned post.
Usually, I find such attacks are seldom unprovoked. Usually. But it seems to be the case many times when the victim sometimes doesn't recognize they do what they accuse others of doing and get back what they dish out. I'll know better (after reading the entire thread) if that's the case. In the meanwhile -- you just go ahead and keep making your assumptions.
Larry, I didn't say "you vic-worshippers disgust me". I said it with a little more "punch"
:
:) At least you can't accuse me of plagiarizing. I was paraphrasing what you said. My bad.
Yes, Eyes unfortunately we go 'round the same mountain yearly if not bi-yearly. (More or less)
There are usually more people who speak out against the horrid treatment dished to those who speak out, but Raf is on the honeymoon (or just back) Zixar doesn't vist often, Satori must be busy at home with the new family, I haven't seen Sunesis either this time, unfortunately we lost George (longgone) and (maybe) Jimmy Dopp as they passed away - what wonderful people they were.
The pro VPW -- "he couldn't have done that, even if he did I will follow him, where is the proof?" camp, lost MIKE. But they picked up Jeaniam.
My position is more complicated than that. I tend to agree that the issue needs to be judged on a case by case basis, and since I have neither the wisdom nor the time to embark on a project of that size and complexity I prefer to leave it up to God (the only wise and righteous judge). I don't think of myself as following VPW (especially since he is dead) but I do believe that he taught much of the truth of the Bible, and I am very thankful for it because of the background I came from. Many of you claim to have come from a background in which you were taught many of the principles of the Bible before you took PFAL, but there were others of us who were not as fortunate.
I agree with White Dove, Oldiesman, etc. that some of you are not acting solely as witnesses, but also as judges and juries.
I hear you Tonto...and am right there. I think that my anger and indignation for the callousness and at times downright cruelty displayed has given way to a real saddness. After all I have seen, when people finally pulled off the gloves and showed what was underneath their *company manners* as we call it home....I think that the unrecognized damage wrought by thw ministry and doctrine of pfal is pretty profound.
It makes it alright to treat savagely anybody that we personally disagree with....it makes it ok to ignore a brother or sisters pain if in acknowledging it threatens the perception one wishes to hold of twi doctrine.
Pfal teachings make it ok to ignore clear biblical instruction, clear evidence as to ones spiritual nature, how we are to recognise, and most importantly how we are to treat one another.... ALL in order to support that which we WISH to believe.
Twi/pfal seems to have profoundly damaged to the point where we seem to believe that it is ok to act meaner than a snake.........it`s like some kind of vital swith has been turned off ......whether it is the way vpw lied...drugged and raped our sisters ...the cruel way in which believers were treated by leaders...or even the way we treat one another here today.
I really think that in embracing pfal, that we are drawn off track, but have instilled in us the arrogance and illusion that we are spiritual and right....so we don`t see the need to *fix* what is wrong.
Usually, I find such attacks are seldom unprovoked. Usually. But it seems to be the case many times when the victim sometimes doesn't recognize they do what they accuse others of doing and get back what they dish out. I'll know better (after reading the entire thread) if that's the case. In the meanwhile -- you just go ahead and keep making your assumptions.
I agree. There are posters who say that no-one who commits certain actions can honestly claim to be a Christian, but they fail to take an honest look at their own lives, and ask themselves how they can call their own behavior Christian.
Thanks for your response, T-Bone. Food for thought.
I am with you. I do not feel like hugging right now.
Oldiesman-
She didn't deserve it; Dr. Wierwille was still wrong regardless.
However an old Chinese proverb comes into play here: FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU; FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME
or,
"Anyone who falls for the same deceit twice must accept responsibility for his own gullibility; thus, one should be more watchful the second time around."
Rape makes you loose many things, good judgment maybe one of them, she went back, I do not know why. I thanked the guy who raped me for visiting our Way home. I do not really know why, I wrote what I thought the reasons were, but there was something in my core that needed survival and maybe pretending everything was still "okay" was a part of that survival.
Many of you claim to have come from a background in which you were taught many of the principles of the Bible before you took PFAL, but there were others of us who were not as fortunate.
Jeaniam
I am a PFAL grad who loved the class and all I learned in it. I became quite the evangelist bringing people to the Lord via PFAL. I had already spoken in tongues, once as a teen and then in the Pentecostal church. I went from a “Cher” type teenager to a full blown Jesus freak. I had patched on my jeans and hung in bookstore reading everything I could about Jesus, I got involved with the Way and they told me about a Jesus spirit, and that it was not about Jesus it was a deceptive spirit. After that Jesus only closed out prayers for me, example:
God, blaa blaa, in the name of Jesus Christ Amen. Also, I was told to say Jesus Christ as there were many Jesuses. (Like God and he would be confused or something if I did not add “Christ”)
I so loved the community of believers, and a bit of the structure of a class, to present things in a logical format, that I had many sign the green card.
I then went into a Way home, WOW twice, and into the corps. With each involvement that took me closer to HQS, (The commitments and the Way corps leadership) I learned less and less about Jesus Christ. But they had whole classes on dealing with the adversary. They had porn movies to SHOW us about devils, but I learned very little about Jesus.
My point is, if you did not know Jesus prior to TWI, and only know of him via TWI, I lovingly suggest you read some great books written by people who had ministries based around the greatness of our savior Jesus the Christ.
Wrds and Wrks has her PHD, I believe, in Biblical matters and may be able to direct you to some GREAT fellowship with Jesus, he was not absent in TWI, but he was certainly on a back burner, while devils and odd doctrines cooked on the front ones.
I am thankful that God, made it through to your heart despite the evil circumstances, he had to dive through to reach and protect you from the storms on the horizon. Praise God for your life in the greenhouse and praise him that you did not go in the corps, or work at HQS. Both may have introduced you to harmful things.
I agree with White Dove, Oldiesman, etc. that some of you are not acting solely as witnesses, but also as judges and juries.
If something happens to you, I think it goes beyond witness. Look into the eyes of your daughter, and tell me if she came home as Catcup's sister did... and years later you discovered your daughter was raped by her pastor -- would you need a judge and jury to speak out? Seeing how fiesty you are, I bet you would camp on "his" door step and warn the world to save others from injury and to validate any other victims. I cannot believe you would behave as you have here.
Larry, it took me over eight hours to read this thread. No lie. And that was even with some considerable fast-forwarding once I caught the drift of some of the posters. It's not really worth it. As has been said, this is done once or twice every year. There is gold to be gleaned.... I don't know, maybe worth it. I will leave it to your judgment. Overall, I'd agree with your initial impression.
That being said, the high volume from one quarter has a reason; there is profound hurt that remains and NEEDS to be dealt with, somehow. I only wish to God that a bulletin board could somehow provide what is truly needed, and maybe it can.
People are willing to believe that VPW did have wrong sex with people, be it rape or adultery.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11
New International Version (NIV)
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
So, what do you think Jesus would want us to do? Keep going to his church? Defend him?
I agree. There are posters who say that no-one who commits certain actions can honestly claim to be a Christian, but they fail to take an honest look at their own lives, and ask themselves how they can call their own behavior Christian.
Being a little judge and jury yourself, aren't you?
*Dooj breaks free of the group hug and clears her throat*
She didn't deserve it; Dr. Wierwille was still wrong regardless.
However an old Chinese proverb comes into play here: FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU; FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME
or,
"Anyone who falls for the same deceit twice must accept responsibility for his own gullibility; thus, one should be more watchful the second time around."
Oldies - you just had to come back with that comment to get your last word in, didn't you?
What you believe happened to these gals won't change a doggone thing for them. What you think happened or should have happened has no place in this discussion.
What you would have done is irrelevant. What Confusion errr Confusious says is irrelevant.
BUT what you SAY can minister grace. As far as I'm concerned that concept is foreign to you when it comes to this subject.
I know that when I make a minor mistake that causes me pain, I doubt myself and second guess myself and go through the "what if's" and the "If only's." I can only imagine what something like this does to a person.
I know that I was attacked (NOT raped) by a clergy and I ended up allowing the fool to perform my wedding. WHY? - Well - I thought I could be forgiving. I thought I was doing the Godly thing. Years later I realized that my silence helped him go on to do much worst to more women.
Quit being a jerk set on protecting your past and think with what's left of your heart.
*Has to go cool down before she can re-join the group*
It doesn`t take pfal to see a baby brought back from drowning. My friends 2 yr old was found submerged and unresponsive, and it had been far longer than ten miniutes......and they nobody in that group were grads. Yeah ...thank God, it was miraculous....but not due to anybodies operation of particular formulas or prayers.
Some times they make it, sometimes as in the case of my husbands baby brother ...they don`t. Special knowledge doesn`t seem to be a factor.
The thing that I see in hind sight is that so many many people took that class became arrogant in their *knowledge* We had ALL the answeres to life and Godliness donchaknow?
The results were sporadic, at best.
It was nearly 20 years later before I saw God start working again ...and that was when I admitted that I really knew nothing.
Knowledge puffeth up ...I get it now
All of that knowledge and all of those scriptures learned and all of those principles operated didn`t help prevent people from becoming incredibly evil, nor inspire them with the heart of a true christian to love one another.
We knew the word, we didn`t HAVE to act as a christian. It was ok to destroy and consume one another like ravening wolves....
If people would only realize how true is the last part of this quote. Some people obtained a LITTLE bit of knowledge and then acted like God gave them the right to be total bastards.
Smarter, that reminds me of the following article about the book of Jude... Sound like TWI to you? Some parts are a little different but off in the same crazy vein, none-the-less
Jude wrote the letter to warn his readers against false teachers. These teachers claimed to be Christians. But they were being a great danger to the *faith.
v4 Some wicked men have come among you in secret. They change the *grace of God, as an excuse for their wicked behaviour. They deny our only Master and *Lord, Jesus Christ. Long ago, God warned that he has given judgement against people like that.
Verse 4 The ‘wicked men’ are false teachers. They may have travelled from place to place. Nobody noticed when they came among Jude’s readers. Their wrong ideas were a danger to the *faith. These were the errors in their teaching:
· They were taking wrong advantage of God’s *mercy. They used it as an excuse to behave in any way that they liked. They were like some Christians that Paul described (Romans 6:1). They said that God loves to forgive. So wicked behaviour makes it possible for God to show even more of his *grace. ( a bit like the inner circle where sin was NOT sin, we could handle it)
· They said that the human body is evil. So, it does not matter how you use it. They denied Jesus and his words by the wicked way in which they lived. (Some of us in TWI were told our bodies were our minitry - the whole sex thing again)
· They denied that Jesus had a real human body. They said that he could not be hungry or need to drink. He did not feel pain.
· They said that Jesus was not one with God.
· They claimed to have special knowledge of the way to God. They were superior to ordinary Christians, who could not have this same knowledge.The TWI I knew always had us as superior
Now, in verses 5-15, Jude gives examples of God’s punishment of people like that.
*Old Testament examples of God’s judgement
v5 You know all these stories, but I need to remind you of them.
God rescued the people of Israel from Egypt. But afterwards, he destroyed those who did not trust him.
v6 Some *angels did not keep their position, but left their proper place in heaven. God has kept them chained in deep darkness until the day of judgement.
v7 The people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities near them loved to practise sex in ways that are not natural. These people are a warning to other people. They suffered the punishment of fire that will last for ever.
Verse 5 The people of Israel were once slaves in Egypt (Exodus chapter 1). God rescued them through Moses (Exodus chapters 5-12). But they did not trust God enough to enter the land that God had promised to give them. So they died in the desert (Hebrews 3:17). Jesus called his death an ‘exodus’ (departure) (Luke 9:31) that would rescue his people from evil. Lack of trust in him, too, will lead to God’s judgement.
Verse 6 Because of their pride, some *angels refused to obey God (Revelation 12:7-9). They left heaven to marry women on earth (Genesis 6:1-2). The false teachers in their pride and desire for women were like the bad *angels. Those *angels did not ‘keep’ their proper position. So God ‘kept’ them in chains and in darkness until the day of judgement. If God judges even *angels, he will judge men and women too.
Verse 7 The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of all kinds of wicked behaviour. Genesis 19:1-11 describes how two *angels visited Lot. They visited him to warn him to escape from God’s judgement against Sodom and Gomorrah. The men of Sodom wanted to use the visitors to satisfy their wicked desires for sex. God destroyed them with fire.
v8 But in their wicked imagination, these men are now using their bodies in the same evil way. They do not respect God’s authority. They speak evil of *angels.
Verse 8 Even with such awful examples in front of them, the false teachers have no thought for their own fate. So they continue their wicked practice of sex, like the people of Sodom. They do not obey the *Lord Jesus Christ (verse 4).
They insult God’s *angels. The Greek word for ‘angel’ also means one who brings a message. So Jude may be referring to the church leaders. The false teachers consider themselves far superior.
v9 The chief *angel Michael argued with the devil about the body of Moses. But Michael would not accuse him. Instead he said, ‘May the *Lord correct you!’
Verse 9 Jude gets his information from an ancient book called ‘The Assumption of Moses’. This book is not in the *Old Testament. But Jude’s readers would know the story. When Moses died (Deuteronomy 34:5-6), God sent one of his most important *angels, Michael, to bury his body. But the devil said that the body belonged to him. This was because Moses had murdered an Egyptian (Exodus 2:12). Michael did not argue with the devil. He said that God himself would deal with him.
v10 These men, however, *mock anything that they do not understand. They behave like animals and do whatever they like. Their desires are wicked, and wicked behaviour will destroy them.
Verse 10 They think that anything that is outside their experience has no use or worth. They do not realise where their attitudes and actions are leading them. Their fate is as certain as in the case of those wicked people and bad *angels that Jude has mentioned.
We interrupt this regularly scheduled program to bring you this brief message from "one of the guys".
A long time ago, I was hitchhiking on a dark, deserted inner city street ,late at night in a very tough area of town.
I got a ride.
After a few blocks, it became apparent to me what this guy had in mind and he didn't seem to be the type who was interested in the idea of "consent". (need I say more?)
So, some may say" But you're a guy."
That's true, but guys get raped ,too. Don't kid yourself.
But that's not really the point I'm driving toward.
I'll shorten the story and tell you that a tire iron he had left on the cab floor(it was a pick-up truck) proved to be a very persuasive tool in convincing him to let me go.
I escaped unharmed and moments later, all by my self, walking down the street, I spoke in tongues for the very first time.
Another time, many years later, I stood at the front door of a home to inform the occupant I was there to take repossession of some equipment. When the door swung open, I found myself looking down the business end of a shot gun. I backed down and called the sheriff in to help me.
Anyway, I didn't get raped or shot.
I did, however, come face to face with at least a sampling of the kind of terror that rape victims probably feel.
It's a helpless feeling and I only got a SMALL SAMPLING of it. It's scary stuff, guys.
Here's my point:
As a guy, you tend to rehearse in your mind what you would do if this or that happens.
"Hey, first I'll sucker punch him, then I'll spin around and grab the gun"------- and on and on.
Don't fool yourself. You really don't know exactly how you would react until you are staring reality square in the face.
Now, stop to realize that some of this stuff happened in Podunk, Ohio, in the middle of nowhere and the victims may have been hundreds or thousands of miles from home, with no real kind of support system, with very little money and limited access to transportation or even a phone.
Yeah, it's easy to say "Well, I would have Karate chopped him and broke his nose"---- and so on.
But really, you don't know what you would have done any more than I knew what I would do in the two incidents I cited. How these women reacted is not relevant to whether they were betrayed or mistreated.
This clergy that pinned me... this same sicko sat in a class for marriage and family and proceeded to teach (I kid you not!):
"Women have "orifices" so they feel especially vulnerable..."
THAT WAS ABOUT THE WHOLE POINT OF THAT TEACHING - VULNERABILITY AND A WEAKNESS. I kept waiting for him to tell the men something -- anything -- that was a point to his saying that -- It never came.
He was hand picked and trained by VPW... need I say more?
ps. (i know i signed off with a "peace out" damn forgive me)
but when you tell things that happened and are true, it doesn't make you a judge or a jury, at all
No, possibly not, but when you make statements along the lines of 'How could he be a Christian or born again, and do those things'; or 'Anyone who does things like that must be going to hell'; etc., etc., you have gone beyond the point of being a witness.
And, Dot, it is not possible for me to camp on his doorstep, and proclaim his alleged misdeeds to the heavens, and warn others away from taking part in his ministry. He's dead. And as far as your question about whether Jesus would want us to continue to follow VPW after we became aware of his alleged misdeeds, possibly not, but let me point out that I, at least didn't do that. By the time I became aware of VPW's alleged misdeeds, I had long ended my participation in TWI, and I maintain that there is a big difference between continuing to believe that much of what I learned in PFAL about the Bible was true and continuing to follow VPW.
Possibly, my statement was somewhat judgmental, but I, at least, have not called anyone on this thread 'f**king a**holes' or other creative uses of four-lettered insults.
We knew the word, we didn`t HAVE to act as a christian. It was ok to destroy and consume one another like ravening wolves....
If people would only realize how true is the last part of this quote. Some people obtained a LITTLE bit of knowledge and then acted like God gave them the right to be total bastards.
Yes, but what is not being acknowledged is that many posters on this thread are consuming each other like ravening wolves, and they do not all belong to the camp that saw some good in TWI, and PFAL.
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Mark Clarke
I still believe those few things, with one qualification. We were taught we didn't go to heaven "right away" as you put it. But they were rather vague about what happens in the end. I believe we do
Catcup
Since leaving TWI, I have kind of devolved back almost to where my beliefs were just before getting into TWI. Although in my family we were raised Southern Baptist, we never believed Jesus was God.
GrouchoMarxJr
Unlike oldies, I believe that the majority of what was taught in pfal was wrong... However, as a Christian, I do believe in "eventual" eternal life and I believe that Jesus was the son of God and not
Larry N Moore
I guess you outta read what I actually say instead saying what you think I said. I haven't made up my mind. If I did that I wouldn't have said "I guess I'm going to have to read the whole thread . . . ."
Knowing why would be interesting to learn. I suppose.Usually, I find such attacks are seldom unprovoked. Usually. But it seems to be the case many times when the victim sometimes doesn't recognize they do what they accuse others of doing and get back what they dish out. I'll know better (after reading the entire thread) if that's the case. In the meanwhile -- you just go ahead and keep making your assumptions.
:) At least you can't accuse me of plagiarizing. I was paraphrasing what you said. My bad.
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Jeaniam
My position is more complicated than that. I tend to agree that the issue needs to be judged on a case by case basis, and since I have neither the wisdom nor the time to embark on a project of that size and complexity I prefer to leave it up to God (the only wise and righteous judge). I don't think of myself as following VPW (especially since he is dead) but I do believe that he taught much of the truth of the Bible, and I am very thankful for it because of the background I came from. Many of you claim to have come from a background in which you were taught many of the principles of the Bible before you took PFAL, but there were others of us who were not as fortunate.
I agree with White Dove, Oldiesman, etc. that some of you are not acting solely as witnesses, but also as judges and juries.
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rascal
I`m huggin eyes :)
I hear you Tonto...and am right there. I think that my anger and indignation for the callousness and at times downright cruelty displayed has given way to a real saddness. After all I have seen, when people finally pulled off the gloves and showed what was underneath their *company manners* as we call it home....I think that the unrecognized damage wrought by thw ministry and doctrine of pfal is pretty profound.
It makes it alright to treat savagely anybody that we personally disagree with....it makes it ok to ignore a brother or sisters pain if in acknowledging it threatens the perception one wishes to hold of twi doctrine.
Pfal teachings make it ok to ignore clear biblical instruction, clear evidence as to ones spiritual nature, how we are to recognise, and most importantly how we are to treat one another.... ALL in order to support that which we WISH to believe.
Twi/pfal seems to have profoundly damaged to the point where we seem to believe that it is ok to act meaner than a snake.........it`s like some kind of vital swith has been turned off ......whether it is the way vpw lied...drugged and raped our sisters ...the cruel way in which believers were treated by leaders...or even the way we treat one another here today.
I really think that in embracing pfal, that we are drawn off track, but have instilled in us the arrogance and illusion that we are spiritual and right....so we don`t see the need to *fix* what is wrong.
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Jeaniam
I agree. There are posters who say that no-one who commits certain actions can honestly claim to be a Christian, but they fail to take an honest look at their own lives, and ask themselves how they can call their own behavior Christian.
Thanks for your response, T-Bone. Food for thought.
BTW, I'm in for the group hug.
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Eyesopen
And of course I'm huggin' back Rascal!
Ooohh now it really is becoming a "group".
I understand...but I'll be glad to give you a hug when you are ready. 'Cause I really love you...and I can relate, I've been that mad at times too.
And we are happy to have you!
My good friend Doojie also wants to be in on the group hug! Welcome Dooj!
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GarthP2000
I dunno about piffle, but one of the things that I learned here at the 'Spot is that everybody just LOVES those group hugs.
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excathedra
as long as no one starts those goddang back rubs
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Dot Matrix
Tonto
I am with you. I do not feel like hugging right now.
Oldiesman-
Rape makes you loose many things, good judgment maybe one of them, she went back, I do not know why. I thanked the guy who raped me for visiting our Way home. I do not really know why, I wrote what I thought the reasons were, but there was something in my core that needed survival and maybe pretending everything was still "okay" was a part of that survival. JeaniamI am a PFAL grad who loved the class and all I learned in it. I became quite the evangelist bringing people to the Lord via PFAL. I had already spoken in tongues, once as a teen and then in the Pentecostal church. I went from a “Cher” type teenager to a full blown Jesus freak. I had patched on my jeans and hung in bookstore reading everything I could about Jesus, I got involved with the Way and they told me about a Jesus spirit, and that it was not about Jesus it was a deceptive spirit. After that Jesus only closed out prayers for me, example:
God, blaa blaa, in the name of Jesus Christ Amen. Also, I was told to say Jesus Christ as there were many Jesuses. (Like God and he would be confused or something if I did not add “Christ”)
I so loved the community of believers, and a bit of the structure of a class, to present things in a logical format, that I had many sign the green card.
I then went into a Way home, WOW twice, and into the corps. With each involvement that took me closer to HQS, (The commitments and the Way corps leadership) I learned less and less about Jesus Christ. But they had whole classes on dealing with the adversary. They had porn movies to SHOW us about devils, but I learned very little about Jesus.
My point is, if you did not know Jesus prior to TWI, and only know of him via TWI, I lovingly suggest you read some great books written by people who had ministries based around the greatness of our savior Jesus the Christ.
Wrds and Wrks has her PHD, I believe, in Biblical matters and may be able to direct you to some GREAT fellowship with Jesus, he was not absent in TWI, but he was certainly on a back burner, while devils and odd doctrines cooked on the front ones.
I am thankful that God, made it through to your heart despite the evil circumstances, he had to dive through to reach and protect you from the storms on the horizon. Praise God for your life in the greenhouse and praise him that you did not go in the corps, or work at HQS. Both may have introduced you to harmful things.
If something happens to you, I think it goes beyond witness. Look into the eyes of your daughter, and tell me if she came home as Catcup's sister did... and years later you discovered your daughter was raped by her pastor -- would you need a judge and jury to speak out? Seeing how fiesty you are, I bet you would camp on "his" door step and warn the world to save others from injury and to validate any other victims. I cannot believe you would behave as you have here.
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excathedra
i can vouch for that
--
ps. (i know i signed off with a "peace out" damn forgive me)
but when you tell things that happened and are true, it doesn't make you a judge or a jury, at all
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johniam
quote: The pro VPW -- "he couldn't have done that, even if he did I will follow him, where is the proof?" camp, lost MIKE. But they picked up Jeaniam.
Did Mike formally announce that he was leaving? I've seen him lurking recently. News to me.
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Dot Matrix
Dear God, no.
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anotherDan
Larry, it took me over eight hours to read this thread. No lie. And that was even with some considerable fast-forwarding once I caught the drift of some of the posters. It's not really worth it. As has been said, this is done once or twice every year. There is gold to be gleaned.... I don't know, maybe worth it. I will leave it to your judgment. Overall, I'd agree with your initial impression.
That being said, the high volume from one quarter has a reason; there is profound hurt that remains and NEEDS to be dealt with, somehow. I only wish to God that a bulletin board could somehow provide what is truly needed, and maybe it can.
Dan <--- big time hugger! I'm in.
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Dot Matrix
Another Dan - 8 hours!!! WOW
Okay --
People are willing to believe that VPW did have wrong sex with people, be it rape or adultery.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11
New International Version (NIV)
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
So, what do you think Jesus would want us to do? Keep going to his church? Defend him?
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Dot Matrix
Jeaniam said
Being a little judge and jury yourself, aren't you?
Hug away folks!
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doojable
*Dooj breaks free of the group hug and clears her throat*
Oldies - you just had to come back with that comment to get your last word in, didn't you?
What you believe happened to these gals won't change a doggone thing for them. What you think happened or should have happened has no place in this discussion.
What you would have done is irrelevant. What Confusion errr Confusious says is irrelevant.
BUT what you SAY can minister grace. As far as I'm concerned that concept is foreign to you when it comes to this subject.
I know that when I make a minor mistake that causes me pain, I doubt myself and second guess myself and go through the "what if's" and the "If only's." I can only imagine what something like this does to a person.
I know that I was attacked (NOT raped) by a clergy and I ended up allowing the fool to perform my wedding. WHY? - Well - I thought I could be forgiving. I thought I was doing the Godly thing. Years later I realized that my silence helped him go on to do much worst to more women.
Quit being a jerk set on protecting your past and think with what's left of your heart.
*Has to go cool down before she can re-join the group*
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Dot Matrix
The reason I cannot hug right now is, I feel like I watched Marsha and Exxie get assaulted again. Assaulted by people on this thread.
To hug right now, for me, would be like saying thank you to the guy who raped me in the Way home. I just can't.
It would not be resolution, I would be pretending again. Pretend its okay and it will go away. (((hug))) and forget it. Naw, I pass.
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smarter
If people would only realize how true is the last part of this quote. Some people obtained a LITTLE bit of knowledge and then acted like God gave them the right to be total bastards.
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rascal
Good point Dot and tonto...you are right.
Excathedra and marsha, I am sorry.
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Dot Matrix
Smarter, that reminds me of the following article about the book of Jude... Sound like TWI to you? Some parts are a little different but off in the same crazy vein, none-the-less
http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/jude-lbw.rtf
According to this writing; The book of Jude:
What This Letter Is About
Jude wrote the letter to warn his readers against false teachers. These teachers claimed to be Christians. But they were being a great danger to the *faith.
v4 Some wicked men have come among you in secret. They change the *grace of God, as an excuse for their wicked behaviour. They deny our only Master and *Lord, Jesus Christ. Long ago, God warned that he has given judgement against people like that.
Verse 4 The ‘wicked men’ are false teachers. They may have travelled from place to place. Nobody noticed when they came among Jude’s readers. Their wrong ideas were a danger to the *faith. These were the errors in their teaching:
· They were taking wrong advantage of God’s *mercy. They used it as an excuse to behave in any way that they liked. They were like some Christians that Paul described (Romans 6:1). They said that God loves to forgive. So wicked behaviour makes it possible for God to show even more of his *grace. ( a bit like the inner circle where sin was NOT sin, we could handle it)
· They said that the human body is evil. So, it does not matter how you use it. They denied Jesus and his words by the wicked way in which they lived. (Some of us in TWI were told our bodies were our minitry - the whole sex thing again)
· They denied that Jesus had a real human body. They said that he could not be hungry or need to drink. He did not feel pain.
· They said that Jesus was not one with God.
· They claimed to have special knowledge of the way to God. They were superior to ordinary Christians, who could not have this same knowledge. The TWI I knew always had us as superior
Now, in verses 5-15, Jude gives examples of God’s punishment of people like that.
*Old Testament examples of God’s judgement
v5 You know all these stories, but I need to remind you of them.
God rescued the people of Israel from Egypt. But afterwards, he destroyed those who did not trust him.
v6 Some *angels did not keep their position, but left their proper place in heaven. God has kept them chained in deep darkness until the day of judgement.
v7 The people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities near them loved to practise sex in ways that are not natural. These people are a warning to other people. They suffered the punishment of fire that will last for ever.
Verse 5 The people of Israel were once slaves in Egypt (Exodus chapter 1). God rescued them through Moses (Exodus chapters 5-12). But they did not trust God enough to enter the land that God had promised to give them. So they died in the desert (Hebrews 3:17). Jesus called his death an ‘exodus’ (departure) (Luke 9:31) that would rescue his people from evil. Lack of trust in him, too, will lead to God’s judgement.
Verse 6 Because of their pride, some *angels refused to obey God (Revelation 12:7-9). They left heaven to marry women on earth (Genesis 6:1-2). The false teachers in their pride and desire for women were like the bad *angels. Those *angels did not ‘keep’ their proper position. So God ‘kept’ them in chains and in darkness until the day of judgement. If God judges even *angels, he will judge men and women too.
Verse 7 The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of all kinds of wicked behaviour. Genesis 19:1-11 describes how two *angels visited Lot. They visited him to warn him to escape from God’s judgement against Sodom and Gomorrah. The men of Sodom wanted to use the visitors to satisfy their wicked desires for sex. God destroyed them with fire.
v8 But in their wicked imagination, these men are now using their bodies in the same evil way. They do not respect God’s authority. They speak evil of *angels.
Verse 8 Even with such awful examples in front of them, the false teachers have no thought for their own fate. So they continue their wicked practice of sex, like the people of Sodom. They do not obey the *Lord Jesus Christ (verse 4).
They insult God’s *angels. The Greek word for ‘angel’ also means one who brings a message. So Jude may be referring to the church leaders. The false teachers consider themselves far superior.
v9 The chief *angel Michael argued with the devil about the body of Moses. But Michael would not accuse him. Instead he said, ‘May the *Lord correct you!’
Verse 9 Jude gets his information from an ancient book called ‘The Assumption of Moses’. This book is not in the *Old Testament. But Jude’s readers would know the story. When Moses died (Deuteronomy 34:5-6), God sent one of his most important *angels, Michael, to bury his body. But the devil said that the body belonged to him. This was because Moses had murdered an Egyptian (Exodus 2:12). Michael did not argue with the devil. He said that God himself would deal with him.
v10 These men, however, *mock anything that they do not understand. They behave like animals and do whatever they like. Their desires are wicked, and wicked behaviour will destroy them.
Verse 10 They think that anything that is outside their experience has no use or worth. They do not realise where their attitudes and actions are leading them. Their fate is as certain as in the case of those wicked people and bad *angels that Jude has mentioned.
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rascal
:blink: wow...
Dot THAT explains a hell of a lot...
Amen Smarter...
Love God and Love your neighbor, the two great commandments were forgotten :(
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waysider
We interrupt this regularly scheduled program to bring you this brief message from "one of the guys".
A long time ago, I was hitchhiking on a dark, deserted inner city street ,late at night in a very tough area of town.
I got a ride.
After a few blocks, it became apparent to me what this guy had in mind and he didn't seem to be the type who was interested in the idea of "consent". (need I say more?)
So, some may say" But you're a guy."
That's true, but guys get raped ,too. Don't kid yourself.
But that's not really the point I'm driving toward.
I'll shorten the story and tell you that a tire iron he had left on the cab floor(it was a pick-up truck) proved to be a very persuasive tool in convincing him to let me go.
I escaped unharmed and moments later, all by my self, walking down the street, I spoke in tongues for the very first time.
Another time, many years later, I stood at the front door of a home to inform the occupant I was there to take repossession of some equipment. When the door swung open, I found myself looking down the business end of a shot gun. I backed down and called the sheriff in to help me.
Anyway, I didn't get raped or shot.
I did, however, come face to face with at least a sampling of the kind of terror that rape victims probably feel.
It's a helpless feeling and I only got a SMALL SAMPLING of it. It's scary stuff, guys.
Here's my point:
As a guy, you tend to rehearse in your mind what you would do if this or that happens.
"Hey, first I'll sucker punch him, then I'll spin around and grab the gun"------- and on and on.
Don't fool yourself. You really don't know exactly how you would react until you are staring reality square in the face.
Now, stop to realize that some of this stuff happened in Podunk, Ohio, in the middle of nowhere and the victims may have been hundreds or thousands of miles from home, with no real kind of support system, with very little money and limited access to transportation or even a phone.
Yeah, it's easy to say "Well, I would have Karate chopped him and broke his nose"---- and so on.
But really, you don't know what you would have done any more than I knew what I would do in the two incidents I cited. How these women reacted is not relevant to whether they were betrayed or mistreated.
"Walk a mile in my shoes."
Was that in the PFAL class?
It should have been.
.
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doojable
You want to hear something real sick?
This clergy that pinned me... this same sicko sat in a class for marriage and family and proceeded to teach (I kid you not!):
"Women have "orifices" so they feel especially vulnerable..."
THAT WAS ABOUT THE WHOLE POINT OF THAT TEACHING - VULNERABILITY AND A WEAKNESS. I kept waiting for him to tell the men something -- anything -- that was a point to his saying that -- It never came.
He was hand picked and trained by VPW... need I say more?
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Jeaniam
No, possibly not, but when you make statements along the lines of 'How could he be a Christian or born again, and do those things'; or 'Anyone who does things like that must be going to hell'; etc., etc., you have gone beyond the point of being a witness.
And, Dot, it is not possible for me to camp on his doorstep, and proclaim his alleged misdeeds to the heavens, and warn others away from taking part in his ministry. He's dead. And as far as your question about whether Jesus would want us to continue to follow VPW after we became aware of his alleged misdeeds, possibly not, but let me point out that I, at least didn't do that. By the time I became aware of VPW's alleged misdeeds, I had long ended my participation in TWI, and I maintain that there is a big difference between continuing to believe that much of what I learned in PFAL about the Bible was true and continuing to follow VPW.
Possibly, my statement was somewhat judgmental, but I, at least, have not called anyone on this thread 'f**king a**holes' or other creative uses of four-lettered insults.
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Jeaniam
We knew the word, we didn`t HAVE to act as a christian. It was ok to destroy and consume one another like ravening wolves....
If people would only realize how true is the last part of this quote. Some people obtained a LITTLE bit of knowledge and then acted like God gave them the right to be total bastards.
Yes, but what is not being acknowledged is that many posters on this thread are consuming each other like ravening wolves, and they do not all belong to the camp that saw some good in TWI, and PFAL.
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