False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?

[skyrider]

It talks about the "Able Minister's" in the Epistles...so, how are they sorted by gifts? if God says we are all able minister's. Why just the few type's listed above?

I think there are alot of folks who would have awesome minister's..but Craig casted a huge stumbling block...that is a awful way to hurt the Body of Christ.

Agreed.

But if every Christian is an able minister with a distinct ministry.......it negates the caste system that twi so elaborately built for decades.

:blink:

[Ham]

What I can't understand.. are the thought processes that conclude "well, he got one on the list right.."

I don't think the lifestyle described here is exactly a multiple choice exam, where one picks one from the list as the answer..

Interesting that this one is the last on the list..

Maybe putting on a charismatic presentation to cover up character flaws isn't "all it's cracked up to be."..

two pages later..

But if every Christian is an able minister with a distinct ministry.......it negates the caste system that twi so elaborately built for decades.

I would vote for this one as the most meaningful post.

Isn't "da Teacher of da Verd" on the top of the system? Yet the "word" if you believe it.. puts it at the bottom.. able to move a crowd, or a few individuals.

See.. the moron may claim the title "teacher".. apt to teach, or allow others to bestow this honor upon his or herself, but if the person is not counterfiet, I would say the rest of the qualifications have to go with it, not just one.

Simon the sorcerer could move a crowd..

[likeaneagle]

All I can say is..the Body I know is bleeding ....we need more ministers and less fighting..

[Ham]

Not being cynical or harsh or anything..

but I think "the body" is going to always be bleeding.. maybe sometimes less, maybe sometimes more..

I think we are all damaged.. just the nature of things.. part of the agreement.. I haven't met a single soul that is not..

even Gandi admitted he was damaged goods.. in a way..

I have a theory.. when we're cut.. we bleed light..

:)

[likeaneagle]

THanks squirrley

[Ham]

The greatest light in life.. I've seen from those, or the one cut most deeply..

[likeaneagle]

I totaly understand that..

[Ham]

Wow..

Sometimes.. people don't have a clue what they really are..

:)

[Ham]

I have a theory.. when we're cut.. we bleed light..

better qualify this.. not literally "cut".

Don't want people to think I'm a vampire or something..

squirrely "creature of da night.."

[caribousam]

Wow, Sunesis. What you said. Funny you mentioned VP's true motive in going to San Franscisco. I too, heard that he went there to explore the "free love" movement among the Jesus people. I can't remember who first proposed the idea to me. Probably JAL, but I can't remember for sure.

There is a presence on the Internet of Christians who believe in "free love," "open marriage," etc. Hard to believe I know. So evidently the idea is still alive and well.

I know from the counseling classes I've taken that sexual disfunction normally starts in adolescence. So I find it rather difficult to believe the VP was a man who "succombed to temptation," in the sexual area. Nobody becomes a pervert older in life. It just doesn't happen that way.

As far as whether or not VP was born again, well I think he was. But just because someone is saved, doesn't mean they don't sin. And sin badly. Even narcissitic psycopaths can be born again, I think. But anyway, the question of whether or not he received Jesus as his Lord at one point in his life, is pure speculation. No one can ever know for sure.

Simply amazing some of the stuff I've read in GS. The picture it all gives of VPW is not a warm and fuzzy one. I only heard or saw VPW from a distance. While some of his teachings were illuminating and healing for me, I always had the sesnse that there were some serious things just not right with the man.

Still, my intro to more in depth Christianity came via The Way, and I am thankful for God's working to bring me to his team.

I left the Way about 20 years ago and have had a fairly fruitful life (in a Christian sense).

From what I hear and believe and understand, I would say that VPW was a chosen minister of God who went badly astray. The end result of this is similar to a false prophet, but does not match what I think of as a false prophet or false minister. A false prophet/minister to me is a minister who claims to speak for God as an ordained (by God) minister, even though God has never given the person this "gift."

God bless!

Cs

[excathedra]

he kinda' had that gift that keeps on giving

[Chief Cornerstone]

my two cents would be Christian Family and Sex, and watching VPW's porn when i was old enough to take it....13. Was there not porn going on in that class? not only me, but junior corps were considered "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. So many a young teen was exposed to the graphically explicit CF and S class for years. i think I've watched that class 5 or 6 times before it got the axe. What were the parents thinking? what were we all thinking....

Another vote for false prophet...

Edited September 8, 2007 by Chief Cornerstone

[Larry N Moore]

my two cents would be Christian Family and Sex, and watching VPW's porn when i was old enough to take it....13. Was there not porn going on in that class? not only me, but junior corps were considered "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. So many a young teen was exposed to the graphically explicit CF and S class for years. i think I've watched that class 5 or 6 times before it got the axe. What were the parents thinking? what were we all thinking....

Another vote for false prophet...

:) Couldn't get enuf of it, could ya?

[Dot Matrix]

And a faithful minister, a faithful Twig

co-ordinator, has to be apt to what? Teach. Apt to teach, he

must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt

to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions

left over the subject I’ve taught. And I expect everybody here to

understand it. Because I believe I got the ability to teach.

Because first of all, the enablements came from God with the

manifestations, and then I have studied to show myself approved

by rightly dividing the Word. So, when I teach, I expect people

to understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that

nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I

teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid. Else the devil

would never let you get in here, ‘er something.

See. Apt to

teach, and then you have to be patient. Good Lord. That’s

another one of those youthful lusts - impatience. You want

everything right now. A faithful minister, a wonderful Twig co-

ordinator, is patient. And whenever you work with people,

which is all basically that we work with, it just takes patience to

work with people. And sometimes it takes a whole month ‘till

you see any fruit, but you’re cultivating, remember? And when a

farmer plants a field, he doesn’t see the wheat crop immediately,

he has patience. And I as a minister of God, for God, I have to

have patience with people. Wait. Just wait, they’ll come. Sooner or later. If it doesn’t come sooner or later, what have you lost? Nothin’, you just wait. That’s why we were able to do those thirteen major television productions, which should’ve been done ten years ago, but I just had to wait ‘till the right

Didn’t this bother anyone else in that post of VP’s teaching?

Does this not imply that if WE do not get his teachings we are STUPID?

First of all, that is so arrogant it sickens me. Secondly, we know how “odd” some of his teachings were, such as the porn in the Christian Family and sex class.

If we QUESTION anything, we are stupid

If we do not get it

We are stupid

This seems to set up the premise that he can teach anything because he is so “apt to teach” that any questions are from the stupid people = anyone who asks a question.

This pushes the “follow him blindly allegiance” which got girls into bed willingly. The unwilling ones is just crininal.

And if one does not "get" his teaching - we are stupid...

Then, right after this he says how patient he is with people .....

How patient is he when he thinks his audience, who does not get his teachings is stupid?

Wouldn't it have been stated more like, "Not everyone is going to get everything. Be patient and gentle with them while trying to keep your teachings simple?

Word Wolf did you catch that? Sunesis?

Edited September 8, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[Chief Cornerstone]

LOL i wish it was by choice, but it was required and many times run in my own home...

[Dot Matrix]

Question

In Like an Eagle's post VP said the following"

See, I don’t care who

owns this auditorium, as long as I have the privilege of teaching

the Word in it. I don’t own it. You don’t own it. The ministry

has it. And yet, every one of us in here tonight can get blessed,

see. If I owned it, I’d have a barrel of trouble. You know then, I

would have to pay tax on it, I’d have to see about all the heat,

everything else. Now all I do is bless people, they all work

together as a family and we all get blessed. Like, you know, I

don’t care about these material things, as long as I can use them. And that is why I can speak with great authority in this field because I’ve been there.I was born and raised in a very wealthy family.

And then, of course, when the time came to inherit the Wierwille stuff, we gave it all away, gave it all to the Way Ministry. The whole farm, all the money, everything else. And it’s wonderful. If I still owned the Way International farm, I couldn't enjoy it as much as I enjoy it now. And yet I have the freedom of living there, I have the freedom of spending my life

my question is was HE wealthy?

Was he brought up in a wealthy family?

Also, I thought TWI was the Kipp farm.

Curious...

Edited September 9, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[Ham]

don’t care about these material things, as long as I can use them.

This is a pretty revealing statement as well..

Double speak. I own it, but I don't own it. I can teach in it, and use it.. but I don't have to pay taxes on it.

[waysider]

"Uncle Harry" went into the furniture/ upholstery business.

VP's brother Reuben became a hog farmer.

There is nothing wrong with either of these vocations but they are a bit unusual pursuits for someone who grew up "wealthy".

[Dot Matrix]

VERY WEALTHY

And you'd think maybe he could have afforded a college with a credited Doctorate degree.

It does not fit all the other things I thought we knew...

If I still owned the Way International farm, I couldn't enjoy it as much as I enjoy it now. And yet I have the freedom of living there, I have the freedom of spending my life

I would enjoy my kife a bunch more if I could live in MT house and not pay taxes and have "other people" keep it up for me as well.

[Ham]

I really think.. he sold out his children's and grand children's inheritance.. for almost unbridled power and a few "comforts".

The "corporation" got the farm, and isn't exactly going to give it back..

Sad.. most of them can't freely set foot on the grounds he's buried in..

Edited September 9, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

And you'd think maybe he could have afforded a college with a credited Doctorate degree.

They payed for his Master's.. maybe he knew he didn't have the "stuff" to pull off a doctorate..

[Dot Matrix]

Seriously, doesn't this bother anyone?

He says be gentle

Then exhorts himself and calls people who do not "get" his teachings -- stupid

This is so typical of the TWI mind screw

Like when I went to him to confront him about the adultry, free sex, sex with leaders is okay because you are sevicing them -- CRAP

He told me, "whatsoever things are pure think on those things--"

Like I did not get it

"To the pure all things are pure"

As if I was not pure because I thought the "antics" and "practices" were NOT pure therefore I was stupid and unpure... Otherwise, I would embrace his "ideas" He could not be corrected.

Afterall, if you did not get his teachings YOU ARE STUPID.

That’s the second great exhortation here. Be gentle, gentle.

You see, people through the years have violently disagreed with

what I stand for and what I believe to be the truth of God’s

Word. And yet I always endeavor to be gentle with them, as

much as lieth within me. And a faithful minister, a faithful Twig

co-ordinator, has to be apt to what? Teach. Apt to teach, he

must be able to teach. Apt to teaching. I so believe that I’m apt

to teach that when I finish tonight, I don’t expect any questions

left over the subject I’ve taught. And I expect everybody here to

understand it. Because I believe I got the ability to teach.

Because first of all, the enablements came from God with the

manifestations, and then I have studied to show myself approved

by rightly dividing the Word. So, when I teach, I expect people

to understand what I teach, ‘cause I try to make it so simple that

nobody is stupid enough to miss it. You just can’t miss it when I

teach. ‘Cause nobody would be that stupid. Else the devil ...

Yes, I can see how gentle you were with people who questioned you --- Geez

[Dot Matrix]

Ham

Do you know if they paid for his masters or was that a tongue in cheek remark?

The one thing I know, about the VERY wealthy my father was friendly with, they all put education high on the things they did for their children. The BEST schools, the best start in life to make it.

To be VERY WEALTHY and have a hog farmer and furniture maker and preacher as kids does not fit. I am not saying it cannot not be correct, or these are not worthy professions, these are just not what I have seen the VERY WEALTHY have their children do--

Now, if he owned a hog farm and sat around while others did the work, that might fit with VERY WEALTHY

OR if VP went to Harvard or something, that would fit with VERY WEALTHY

[Ham]

I think his dad foot the bill for mission house. I think it's in der veq, living in love. I don't have a copy anymore.. perhaps someone in the know can chime in here.

But I remember something about paw saying "if you're gonna have to go.. we'll send you to the one we supported in the denomination.."

[waysider]

Didn't he used to brag that he came from a long line of hard working farm people?

I remember him talking about how hard farm life is and how,"Kids today don't know the meaning of hard work. Some of them don't even know which end of the shovel to dig with."

What about all those farm chores that "Uncle Harry" said he used to skip out on?(TWLIL)

Most very wealthy people don't grow up on farms in rural America shoveling pig poop.

Come to think of it, though, some people grow up and become wealthy by "shoveling pig poop".

Edited September 9, 2007 by waysider