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I've been reading the old threads. Rather than pull one back with a reply, I figure I'd just start another. The old thread is here, and it's quite lively:

S.I.T.

Someone just sent me this quote by NT Wright:

I regularly pray in tongues but always in private prayer. It's been over twenty years now...the person

I was with when it began pointed out that as a pastor there would be countless situations where, as in

Romans 8, I wouldn't know what to pray for and this was a way of praying anyway. Obviously that might

encourage mental laziness but I don't think that's been the case -- at least I hope not. Certainly that point

has been more than borne out in experience, again and again.

Acts 2 is clearly a special phenomenon -- people speaking real languages which they didn't otherwise

know. This happens today; I have met people (sober, sensible, utterly believable people!) to whom it

has happened. Funny, isn't it, though -- a lot of people make a lot of fuss about this but it seems to me

pretty well 'normal'.

--N.T. Wright

Wright is Bishop of Duram (Anglican Church) and if he wasn't quite so controversial, he might have become Archbishop of Canterbury. He's a prolific writer, and one of the strongest voices for a "new understanding of Paul." His writings include little books like The Meal Jesus Left Us (re: communion... not sure if that's the exact title) and large tomes directed to the scholarly, like The Resurrection of the Son of God. Some of you thinker/reader types (InvisibleD, TBone, Wrds... others) might enjoy his perspective, if you don't already. A great introduction to Wright is his fairly recent Simply Christian, which is modeled loosely on Mere Christianity. There is PLENTY online about him and from him that you can access free of charge, and a number of Wright discussion groups.

N.T. Wright books at Amazon (or go to B and N if you like!)

Would welcome discussion about him, either in the threads or by email. I think he makes a LOT of sense, though I sometimes feel over my head.

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God first

Beloved anotherDan

God loves you my dear friend

yes I recall that tread

and yes I still speak in tongues and dream in tongues too

first person to dream in tongues in the bible is here

Gen 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.

6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:

7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

a dream is a tongue of pictures which can have a interpretation

Gen 40:2 And Pharaoh was wroth against two of his officers, against the chief of the butlers, and against the chief of the bakers.

3 And he put them in ward in the house of the captain of the guard, into the prison, the place where Joseph was bound.

4 And the captain of the guard charged Joseph with them, and he served them: and they continued a season in ward.

5 And they dreamed a dream both of them, each man his dream in one night, each man according to the interpretation of his dream, the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, which were bound in the prison.

6 And Joseph came in unto them in the morning, and looked upon them, and, behold, they were sad.

7 And he asked Pharaoh's officers that were with him in the ward of his lord's house, saying, Wherefore look ye so sadly to day?

8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

9 And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me;

10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:

11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.

12 And Joseph said unto him, This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days:

13 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee unto thy place: and thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.

14 But think on me when it shall be well with thee, and show kindness, I pray thee, unto me, and make mention of me unto Pharaoh, and bring me out of this house:

after reading this one can see that speaking in tongues = dreaming in a unknown pattern

and interpretation of tongues = interpretation of dreams

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

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Roy, that's pretty wild! While I recognize that both SIT and dreams need interpretations, that's about the only thing I see in common between the two. But I'll think some more about it. You sure make us think!

AnotherDan, I now only SIT when I am frightened by something - y'know - like when you almost have a car accident, or when you think someone is breaking into your house. For me SIT has become one of those automatic responses to fear, similar to a sweaty palms or a racing heart beat. It is THAT basic and deep in my brain (thanks to TWI). I hate it when I realize I'm doing this. On a conscious level, I don't SIT. I don't believe the Biblical references to SIT are correctly understood, and I think most folks who do it outloud are faking it, and patterning it after whatever denomination's guidelines that they learned it from. I also believe that it is definitely NOT a requirement for salvation, or proof that one is born again.

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I've been reading the old threads. Rather than pull one back with a reply, I figure I'd just start another. The old thread is here, and it's quite lively:

S.I.T.

Someone just sent me this quote by NT Wright:

Wright is Bishop of Duram (Anglican Church) and if he wasn't quite so controversial, he might have become Archbishop of Canterbury. He's a prolific writer, and one of the strongest voices for a "new understanding of Paul." His writings include little books like The Meal Jesus Left Us (re: communion... not sure if that's the exact title) and large tomes directed to the scholarly, like The Resurrection of the Son of God. Some of you thinker/reader types (InvisibleD, TBone, Wrds... others) might enjoy his perspective, if you don't already. A great introduction to Wright is his fairly recent Simply Christian, which is modeled loosely on Mere Christianity. There is PLENTY online about him and from him that you can access free of charge, and a number of Wright discussion groups.

N.T. Wright books at Amazon (or go to B and N if you like!)

Would welcome discussion about him, either in the threads or by email. I think he makes a LOT of sense, though I sometimes feel over my head.

Short answer to your question about Speaking in Tongues: YES.

I like N.T. Wright too. I think I first heard about him when I heard a teaching at church, and the pastor read a quote from him. He compared the kingdom of heaven to the Roman empire and spreading the Roman culture, way of life just like we are to spread the culture of heaven. I'll have to try and find it.

I like this article by him too, especially his ideas about narrative and story. I thought it was especially apropos to another thread where someone asked the question about whether we still believed it was "the word the word and nothing but the word." (So many threads, so little time.)

How Can The Bible Be Authoritative?:

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Bible_Authoritative.htm

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WRDS, dear:

Thanks for the link. He probably didn't have to prepare too much for this speech, since he'd written a book called The Last Word, subtitle Beyond the Bible Wars to a New Understanding of the Authority of Scripture. It's one of his shorter books, aimed at a more general audience. I highly recommend it to anyone who is willing to (from the one side) take another look at the Bible, and (on the other) consider a less "literal" Way-brained way to look at it. Another thoughtful book is How To Read the Bible for All Its Worth (no apostrophe on "Its" -- what a difference a little mark can make! but we knew that.) By Fee and Stuart. I've given out about 20 copies, I'd guess, to friends.

After enjoying Wright for quite a while, I was pretty blown away by his position on tongues... he's refreshingly surprising, and smarter than the smartest atheists/agnostics I've come across, and WAY smarter than John Spong.

From the article Wrds noted:

The Purpose and Character of God’s Authority

But what is God doing with his authority? We discover, as we look at the Bible itself, that God’s model of authority is not like that of the managing director over the business, not like that of the governing body over the college, not like that of the police or the law courts who have authority over society. There is a more subtle thing going on. God is not simply organizing the world in a certain way such as we would recognize from any of those human models. He is organizing it—if that’s the right word at all—through Jesus and in the power of the Spirit. And the notion of God’s authority, which we have to understand before we understand what we mean by the authority of scripture, is based on the fact that this God is the loving, wise, creator, redeemer God. And his authority is his sovereign exercise of those powers; his love and wise creations and redemption. What is he doing? He is not simply organizing the world. He is, as we see and know in Christ and by the Spirit, judging and remaking his world. What he does authoritatively he dots with this intent. God is not a celestial information service to whom you can apply for answers on difficult questions. Nor is he a heavenly ticket agency to whom you can go for moral or doctrinal permits or passports to salvation. He does not stand outside the human process and merely comment on it or merely issue you with certain tickets that you might need. Those views would imply either a deist’s God or a legalist’s God, not the God who is revealed in Jesus Christ and the Spirit. And it must be said that a great many views of biblical authority imply one or other of those sub-Christian alternatives.

But, once we say that God’s authority is like that, we find that there is a challenge issued to the world’s view of authority and to the church’s view of authority. Authority is not the power to control people, and crush them, and keep them in little boxes. The church often tries to do that—to tidy people up. Nor is the Bible as the vehicle of God’s authority meant to be information for the legalist. We have to apply some central reformation insights to the concept of authority itself. It seems to me that the Reformation, once more, did not go quite far enough in this respect, and was always in danger of picking up the mediaeval view of authority and simply continuing it with, as was often said, a paper pope instead of a human one. Rather, God’s authority vested in scripture is designed, as all God’s authority is designed, to liberate human beings, to judge and condemn evil and sin in the world in order to set people free to be fully human. That’s what God is in the business of doing. That is what his authority is there for. And when we use a shorthand phrase like ‘authority of scripture’ that is what we ought to be meaning. It is an authority with this shape and character, this purpose and goal.

Shifra, dear! Like you, I don't "practice" it in a need-to-do kind of way, but sometimes reflexively. Wright's take on it is interesting, though, isn't it? He's just sharing, not teaching... I don't think there's any doctrinal written "teaching" he's given on it. Like you, I find it difficult to reconcile much of what (as to SIT) was taught by VPW with the scriptures.

Roy, as usual, you are thinking outside of the box. You have a ministry, brother! Thank you, and a holy kiss blowing your way from Delaware!

Our wonderful context-sensitive Google ads include one for "tongues ringtones"... "Get tongues Ringtones Now. All Carriers Supported!" and yet, somehow, I've resisted the urge to click on it!

Edited by anotherDan
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God first

Beloved Shifra and anotherDan

God loves us all my dear friends

Shifra - when I think of the art on cave walls it makes me see more how a dream is like a language of pictures making it a language of art

anotherDan - your welcome and I am glad you understood me my friend and thanks for the holy kiss back it blesses my heart thanks

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

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Speaking In Tongues by The Holmes Brothers

Mighty fine album(CD)

HeeHee--- not what you had in mind, I'm pretty sure.

Maybe that's what the "tongues ringtones" are about. I did finally click it. Top of the window "featuring tongues ringtones." But I never did find any. I guess you have to pay the 9.95 for the full index.

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I still do it to speak the wonderful works of God, etc. I still find that speaking in tongues brings many of the benefits that the Bible promises (love, joy, peace, etc.).

I enjoyed reading the article wrds brought up and Dan quoted. He seems to agree with something I hypothesized long ago; that the purpose of being born again and receiving holy spirit is to allow a believer to be more fully himself than he could be without it (what Wright refers to as being fully human). Are his books freely available on the Internet or in bookstores?

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I still do it to speak the wonderful works of God, etc. I still find that speaking in tongues brings many of the benefits that the Bible promises (love, joy, peace, etc.).

I enjoyed reading the article wrds brought up and Dan quoted. He seems to agree with something I hypothesized long ago; that the purpose of being born again and receiving holy spirit is to allow a believer to be more fully himself than he could be without it (what Wright refers to as being fully human). Are his books freely available on the Internet or in bookstores?

You'll probably find 5 or 6 of his more popular books at B&N or Borders. There are a lot of Wright resources online (like WRDs' article) and some NT Wright discussion groups. I would start with Simply Christian for a good overall view. Our local fellowship took a break from studying the Gospels for a month to do a Wright symposium based around a post of one of the Wright discussion groups. We did this for four meetings. Note the quote below is NOT from Wright, but what one poster thought were "the Wright basics." Each of us took one or two of the points, and answered the following questions, and then we discussed.

1. Is this really Wright's position?

2. Is it correct?

The Wright basics, as seen by one person in the group:

Gospel- Jesus is the true king of the world, NOT Jesus loves me and does not want me to go to Hell.

Works of the law- That which marks out Israel by the flesh. NOT a semi-pelagian attempt to merit salvation or justify oneself.

Salvation- The end of exile and renewal of the covenant with both Jew and Gentile, NOT the promise that I'm not going to end up in Hell.

Eternal life- Metaphor for the age of the new covenant, NOT a disembodied spiritual bliss in Heaven.

Righteous(ness)-Those who are in the covenant people, NOT an indication of moral purity, perfection, or holiness.

Justification- God's declaration of one who is a member of his people, i.e. in the covenant, NOT just as if I had never sinned.

Kingdom of God/heaven- The joining of heaven and earth in the rule of Christ both already & not yet, NOT a remote or separate abode of God.

Sinners- Those who are outside the covenant. NOT those who break the 10 Commandments or Judaic law.

Forgiveness- End of Exile & renewal of the covenant, NOT everything I've ever done wrong being erased.

Faith- The identifying marker of those in Christ through the new covenant, NOT generalized belief in or about Jesus as savior.

Inheritance- Renewed earthly creation, NOT spiritual Heaven paved with streets of gold.

End of the Age- Inauguration of the new creation ending Israel of the flesh in Adam and renewing Israel of God through faith in/by the Spirit, NOT the end of the space-time continuum.

Edited by anotherDan
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And to think, you used to do it to speak the wonderful works of God!

Everyone says the same things over and over. Stuff already written in the Bible. How do we know something supernatural is actually occuring?

and btw,

I used to do it because Eph 6:1.

Edited by Bolshevik
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Several years ago William T. Samarin, professor of anthropology and linguistics at Toronto University, did an exhaustive 5-year study of "glossolalia".

His conclusions:

"Glossolalia consists of strings of meaningless syllables made up of sounds taken from those familiar to the speaker and put together more or less haphazardly. The speaker controls the rhythm, volume, speed and inflection of his speech so that the sounds emerge as pseudolanguage in the form of words and sentences.

Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language.

Samarin also noted that according to more than half of the glossolalists he studied, it was easier to speak in tongues than in ordinary language. "You don't have to think just let the words flow. One minister said he could 'go on forever: it's just like drumming.'"

(Joe Nickell, "Examining Miracle Claims")

I doubt this will be significant to any believer and practitioner, but, there IS research out there about "tongues". Probably not what you're looking for, though...

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. . .

I doubt this will be significant to any believer and practitioner, but, there IS research out there about "tongues". Probably not what you're looking for, though...

I've personnally never heard anyone glossila-la-la in a known language. Just heard stories of someone. . . somewhere in Europe. . . :rolleyes:

I've seen studies done on tv of people glossilalaling while taking a CAT scan or something. It was rather consistant with what you said.

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One minister said he could 'go on forever: it's just like drumming.'"

(Joe Nickell, "Examining Miracle Claims")

I liked that quote, George. Reminded me of a "drum circle" I saw once. It sure seemed spiritual to me. Drumolalea? (Please, let us not get into "kissing in tongues" ) :offtopic:

A profound treatment of all kinds of spiritual behavior/ experience may be found in William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience. Would make interesting reading for many who hang out here in the basement. The subtitle is revealing: A Study in Human Nature. Very popular book, and available cheap at nearly any good used book store. James' philosophy (called "Pragmatism") is what one might call an enriched agnosticism. His dispassionate review of pneumatikos is brutal (which, again, I would surmise would be very appealing to some of our local posters!) and yet his philosophy, based on these observations, is more than logical, it's almost pleasant.

Wright, whose personal practice of tongues endears me even further to him, has been a spiritual voice of reason and good taste. He doesn't just teach how the Word has authority; like the KJV translators, he feels that his voice is a PART of that Word, a part of God Himself, speaking to His creation, announcing the good news of the grace of God, and proclaiming the things of His kingdom. And it's not just his (Wright's) own voice that does this, but the voice of every one in whom the spirit of God is, who are led by God, who are the children of God. Each of them speaks that Word, both in what they say, and in what they do. Each of them is in partnership, in union, with God, and that may actually be what the New Testament writers were talking about all along.

Edited by anotherDan
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So here I was in the hospital--------err---I mean, This friend of mine was in the hospital getting half an ear sewed back on, on account of it was 98 degrees on the job site and I figured-----I mean, my friend figured,--- "Wouldn't it be nice to work without a hard hat for a little while? What could possibly go wrong?"

Well, the ear part itself was pretty much painless( Or so my friend told me) but it seems they have to put some kinda nerve blocking stuff in your head about every 2mm with a syringe to form a circle around your ear.

My friend told me that the pain from that part of the procedure is enough to drive an enraged bull moose to its knees and holler "MAMA"!!!

So, I decide to think on something pleasant( Like maybe long hair will come back into style and no one will notice half the ear is gone) and I-----I mean my friend-----can tell them to just keep the left over parts"Thank you very much, I'll just be on my way."

Well, almost instinctively, *my friend* started speaking in tongues to himself.

Lo and behold, he found it helped him to clear his mind and ignore the pain. Then, in a manner most rude, one of the Docs interrupted *him* to ask a question. There was that pesky pain again. After answering the question *he* resumed the SIT thing and, Voila!, the pain let up again.

Now, my friend has told me he has done something similar on countless occasions when refocus and concentration were needed.

Personally, I think TWI was "all wet" in what they taught about speaking in tongues but if you ever have a friend who decides to "lend you an ear", you might mention this benefit.

Did I mention this happened to a "friend"?

edited to mention this was several years ago

Edited by waysider
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George, maybe the book converted you? (or unconverted you?) I thought about unconverting when I read it! (At least I thought it might unconvert some of *my friends*, anyway!)

So here I was in the hospital--------err---I mean, This friend of mine

Great story, Waysider.

I've noticed I've almost derailed the thread I started, my own self. Thanks for putting it back on track.

"All who wander are not lost" indeed.

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One of the most powerful and inspiring accounts I've read about someone being led into tongues by the Holy Spirit is in one of my favorite books:

Appointment in Jerusalem by Lydia and Derek Prince

It's an amazing autobiography of a Scandinavian schoolteacher who becomes a "real" Christian (as opposed to the state-sponsored lukewarm Lutheran Christianity that was acceptable for her job as a public school teacher in 1920s Denmark). She was miraculously led into tongues and then to Jerusalem where she started an orphanage for abandoned children, all by herself. It's an amazing story.

Has anyone else here read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Appointment-Jerusale...r/dp/0883687941

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One of the most powerful and inspiring accounts I've read about someone being led into tongues by the Holy Spirit is in one of my favorite books:

Appointment in Jerusalem by Lydia and Derek Prince

It's an amazing autobiography of a Scandinavian schoolteacher who becomes a "real" Christian (as opposed to the state-sponsored lukewarm Lutheran Christianity that was acceptable for her job as a public school teacher in 1920s Denmark). She was miraculously led into tongues and then to Jerusalem where she started an orphanage for abandoned children, all by herself. It's an amazing story.

Has anyone else here read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Appointment-Jerusale...r/dp/0883687941

Wrds, somehow I missed this post.... I have not read it, but I will make an effort to do so, on your recommendation. I too have a great deal of respect for Derek and his wife.

Many of the folks that are a part of our local fellowships have never heard of the Way. We learn so much from them, and they learn, sometimes, from us. At one discussion, a Phillipino couple shared their experience of a spontaneous utterance of tongues that blew me away. I don't know if "led into" really applied in that case, but I know what you mean. Thanks.

Edited by anotherDan
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stirring the pot:

At the end of 1 Corinthians 12, Paul sets forth a series of rhetorical questions... are all apostles? are all prophets? .... do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? This literary device is so common and so effective that people use it today, often without giving it a second thought. Paul's questions are all expecting the obvious answer, "no."

No, all do not speak in tongues. How do you all feel this should be understood?

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stirring the pot:

At the end of 1 Corinthians 12, Paul sets forth a series of rhetorical questions... are all apostles? are all prophets? .... do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? This literary device is so common and so effective that people use it today, often without giving it a second thought. Paul's questions are all expecting the obvious answer, "no."

No, all do not speak in tongues. How do you all feel this should be understood?

I don't know anymore, but I am looking forward to a discussion on it. :)

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stirring the pot:

At the end of 1 Corinthians 12, Paul sets forth a series of rhetorical questions... are all apostles? are all prophets? .... do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? This literary device is so common and so effective that people use it today, often without giving it a second thought. Paul's questions are all expecting the obvious answer, "no."

No, all do not speak in tongues. How do you all feel this should be understood?

I'll bite.

My "Spirit Filled Life Bible" has this note on I Cor. 12:30 "Do all speak with tongues? Not everyone will manifest the gift of tongues in public worship. Yet, in private devotion everyone is encouraged to express themselves through their spiritual language."

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