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The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in.

As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically.

The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty.

Geisha,

In the writing you quote from, does Sproul go into why he does not hold that position? It seems to me the position that God predestines us based on His foreknowledge that we will believe the Gospel is a better fit with the Bible. Otherwise why would there be so much emphasis on believing the gospel? This isn't "arbitrary" or "whimsical" - it's God fulfilling what He said He would do, namely sending a Prophet like Moses, and charging us all to hear his words, which God put on his lips.

I really like what you said in your other post, which I think hits the nail on the head:

"No one likes trials. . . but we can be thankful for what they teach us. Very thankful and actually rejoice in them because we know God will deliver and teach. God is not the author of evil, but who says He can't use it for good?"

And also this one:

"Jesus feels WITH us not against us!! He is in this with us. These trials can be so that we will come to Him. Our confidence is in Him.

The purpose of trials is to come to Him. . . . NOT ashamed. "

I think that sums up the whole point as presented in Scripture.

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But I guess the problem I have is that it sounds like God indeed does cause bad things to happen to people, but they are not really bad things, they are good things because God gave them to us. God gave me diabetes so's I could have a trial in my life and learn something from it? Am I so stupid I can't learn any other way?

Tell that to a young mother who has watched her child suffer and die from a glioblastoma multiforme, enduring surgery, chemotherapy, radiation therapy, Gamma knife, steroids and pain meds and death. "Gee, Mom, aren't you happy your child suffered cancer and died before your eyes? Aren't you glad God gave that child cancer so the child could suffer and you could learn an important lesson? Doesn't that just make you want to shout 'praise the Lord?'"

Tell that to a firefighter who has 3rd degree burns over 80% of his body and still lives as his skin slowly drops off in strips to reveal necrotizing tissue beneath. "Praise the Lord Brother! Aren't you blessed to be learning from this exciting trial!"

But I will say this: If God Almighty gave me diabetes to bless me and teach me some important if unknown lesson, then He is a much worse Father than my earthly father was, who frequently didn't agree with my actions or behavior or attitudes, but loved me anyway and only wanted the best for me.

I think this whole thing glorifies Satan, not God. I think that if the devil hands you lemons and you make lemonaid out of them that may well glorify God, that you had faith in spite of the horrors life throws at you, not because of them.

I am not saying I know more than God, not at all. The early church was being persecuted and those verses you mention address the fact that if people are taking notice of them, they must be doing some good.

There is this song that 4HIM does called "where there is faith"

"Where there is faith

There is a voice calling, keep walking, you're not alone in this world

Where there is faith

There is a peace like a child sleeping, hope everlasting in Him Who is able to bear every burden, to heal every hurt in my heart

It is a wonderful, powerful place

Where there is faith"

And that is what keeps me going in spite of everything, faith in the goodness of God to carry me through trials, tribulations, sickness, disease and death, rather than faith that God brought on this on me for a wonderful reason that I will never understand.

Kinda reminds me of this guy on Death Row, who was studying books on positive thinking and how to be positive all the time. In the exercise yard, he runs across a dour looking fellow inmate and says to him, "Praise the Lord, brother, isn't it a wonderful day! Isn't life wonderful?"

Instead of cheering up, the other inmate becomes even more morose. "What's so good about it?" he asks. "I just found out I'm being electrocuted tomorrow morning!"

The positive fellow thinks for a minute, then speaks again, even more positively: "Well, more power to ya!"

WG

Edited by Watered Garden
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WG,

I don't believe God gives you illness. I never said that. I said He was not the author of evil.

Are you going to tell me that life is not full of trial and tribulations?? Problems??

It is. Plenty of troubles to go around. Why is it God cannot deliver us from them and take the bad and bring good from it? He can, and in the process cause us to grow. I really don't believe He brings it on us. That is just odd.

There is a whole health and wealth gospel out there that says we can all drive Beamers and live rich. I don't buy it. Some of us will suffer.

WG, I had a sick kid. Born 29 weeks gestation by emergency C-section. He had meconium ileus and it had ruptured while he was inside of me. He had surgery the hour he was born. He weighed less than 2 pounds.

Trust me when I say, I know what it is like. He had Cystic Fibrosis.

I don't blame God, or think He caused it. But, I trust in Him. That He is able. That nothing happens that is out of His control.

You know what was worse? Thinking my believing or lack of caused it. Nearly drove me crazy. Seriously. It was when we were leaving TWI and it was a very dark time.

I do think He can deliver us from trial and teach us. . . even years later. . . sometimes we don't always get the why's. That is why the high view of God is comforting. Faith in something greater than ourselves.

A sovereign God.

Some days I just hang on to that for dear life. . . .

:)

Mark,

Not sure why RC and others hold that position. It has to do with their view of God's sovereignty. I probably believe more along the lines you do about predestination. I don't actually have a firm understanding about it. :)

Edited by geisha779
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I'm sorry about your baby. I'm thankful you don't believe God caused it.

Of course I believe trials will come. You find out just how much faith you do have if some catastrophe befalls you. IF you have faith in Christ, you will weather the storm, and yes, maybe come out stronger. If not, your world will shatter.

IDDM hasn't shattered my world. I don't know if it's made me stronger. IF so, I would "in spite of" not "because of."

By the way, I once worked for a doctor who treated people with a very serious and potentially fatal disease (a type of cancer). She was a rock for them. She could explain everything about the treatment, what she herself was doing for them to treat their disease, and encourage her patients to look forward to a good outcome. These individuals were frightened and besides themselves. She gave them hope.

She had survived that disease herself. She is one of the two or three strongest people I know.

So when I look at her, I understand better what you are staying. She also has a very strong belief in God.

WG

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"In this life you will have many troubles." I wonder how Father knew to tell us, to warn us of that. He was looking out for us. Just like a loving Father does for His children. Just like we parents do for our children. Father knows how the evil one works.

I once heard someone say, (gee, I wish I could take credit for this) "If you are a follower of Jesus Christ and you walk in His footsteps what makes you think your life is going to be any different than His?"

Holy crap, I can't tell you what that did to wake me up. Father has nothing to do with my "problems." He doesn't create them, He doesn't allow them. In this life I will have many troubles. I am thankful in (not for) all things. Because He has made a way to escape.

All I know about predestination is that homosapiens make homosapiens, robins make robins, and H2O is always wah wah.

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God doesn't cause the problems, but He does allow them, because He is God and He is in charge. That is comforting to me, because it assures me that nothing is beyond His control. But He doesn't allow bad stuff just to be mean. When He does, it's for a good reason, but we may not understand the reasons at the time. But many times He allows us to go through things so that we can relate to and encourage others with the same problems, like the doctor that WG mentioned.

In TWI we were taught that martyrs died for their faith because they didn't or couldn't believe for deliverance. That contradicts Hebrews 11:39, though, which says, "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise." They didn't receive the promise in their lifetimes, but were confident that God would keep His promises, even if it meant raising them from the dead. They held fast to the same promise of blessings that were given to Abraham, who also did not receive it in his lifetime. When we see the "big picture" - that this life is just preparation for what's to come - even the worst of life's problems are nothing in light of resurrection and eternal life.

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God doesn't cause the problems, but He does allow them, because He is God and He is in charge. That is comforting to me, because it assures me that nothing is beyond His control. But He doesn't allow bad stuff just to be mean. When He does, it's for a good reason, but we may not understand the reasons at the time. But many times He allows us to go through things so that we can relate to and encourage others with the same problems, like the doctor that WG mentioned.

In TWI we were taught that martyrs died for their faith because they didn't or couldn't believe for deliverance. That contradicts Hebrews 11:39, though, which says, "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise." They didn't receive the promise in their lifetimes, but were confident that God would keep His promises, even if it meant raising them from the dead. They held fast to the same promise of blessings that were given to Abraham, who also did not receive it in his lifetime. When we see the "big picture" - that this life is just preparation for what's to come - even the worst of life's problems are nothing in light of resurrection and eternal life.

That is it EXACTLY. God will allow things for a time. . . not causes them. He can do no evil. He can mean something for good though. He can use it for good. He is sovereign. . . or as Mark said. . . in charge.

Look at what happened to Job. It was awful and painful. . . but look at what Job got. . . He . . . through his trials came to TRULY KNOW God.

That is a huge thing. . . huge. The devil still had to ask permission though. . . just like with the sifting of Peter. Jesus prayed Peter's faith would endure. Trials reveal our faith(Usually lacking) and can strengthen it. That is what James is all about.

It is also important to remember it is God's purpose, not ours. We should be seeking His will, no matter what the cost. There is usually a cost.

This life is fleeting. A blink. God is getting us ready for eternity with Him.

Trials DO teach us. They do. As painful as things can be. . . God can make some good come out of them. Not that the trials themselves are good. But, He didn't promise us an easy ride. He promised us troubles, but more importantly that He would be with us.

To know Him is better than this life and all it has to offer. Sometimes it takes tribulation to come to Him.

We can be joyful when this happens. . . we get the greater prize.

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Okay, I understand what you are saying but I don't completely agree with it.

I did wonder more about the elect, though. The way I understand it, there's an extremely short "A" list. These are the elect, predestinated by God from before the beginning of time to spend eternity with Him. If your name is on the "A" list, which is very unlikely, nothing you do can remove it; kill, rape, murder, burn, loot and steal. You might not accept Christ. But you are on the "A" list so it doesn't matter.

Then, there is the infinitely long "B" list. On it are the names of all those who will go to hell because God has predestinated them to go to hell. You can accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and still go to hell because you are predestinated to go to hell. For all he knows, Billy Graham is on the "B" list. The "A" list is very short, just the apostle Paul, John Calvin, and M**k Dr***col are on it for sure. Maybe a couple dozen others. All the rest of us Christians are on the "B" list.

At least that's the way I read it. I looked up John Calvin in Wikipedia and sure looks like that's what he believed.

And that's my main difference. I do believe that human beings are morally depraved and utterly lost without Christ as their savior. I do believe we are saved by grace. I tim. 2:4 says (God) "who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." God knows, because he's God and He has foreknowledge of all things, who will and will not accept Christ, but He'd like it a lot if everyone did.

My God is a God of joy and love and peace. And justice, yes. But I don't believe He's sitting up there on a cloud, ready to zap me with a lightning bolt at the first opportunity.

Do people grow through trials and tribulations, sickness and death. Well, sometimes, depending on their faith to get through it. But I don't think God steals, kills and destroys. Jesus, who knew God better than anybody, says "The thief" comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Satan, the devil, the adversary is the bad guy.

At least that's what is in my Bible.

WG

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I did wonder more about the elect, though. The way I understand it, there's an extremely short "A" list. These are the elect, predestinated by God from before the beginning of time to spend eternity with Him. If your name is on the "A" list, which is very unlikely, nothing you do can remove it; kill, rape, murder, burn, loot and steal. You might not accept Christ. But you are on the "A" list so it doesn't matter.

Then, there is the infinitely long "B" list. On it are the names of all those who will go to hell because God has predestinated them to go to hell. You can accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and still go to hell because you are predestinated to go to hell. For all he knows, Billy Graham is on the "B" list. The "A" list is very short, just the apostle Paul, John Calvin, and M**k Dr***col are on it for sure. Maybe a couple dozen others. All the rest of us Christians are on the "B" list.

My-my! What wild flailings at the doctrine of unconditional election. You have struck only a few “hyper-Calvinists” (e.g. some Primitive Baptists), who reputedly held election to work salvation in some manner independent of faith in Christ.

The Westminster Confession of Faith, with which all authentic Reformed churches would have significant and fundamental levels of agreement, posits the possibility of elect unbelievers only in the cases of “elect infants, dying in infancy” and “other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.”

Following are several chapters from the Westminster Confession of Faith (source: http://opc.org/wcf.html ) where people can read actual statements concerning doctrinal issues that are being misrepresented (I have emphasized some statements):

CHAPTER 3

Of God's Eternal Decree

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

CHAPTER 10

Of Effectual Calling

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

CHAPTER 17

Of the Perseverance of the Saints

1. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

For those wanting to discover the doctrinal characteristics and systematic theological flavor of Reformed theology, I recommend the following:

The Westminster Confession of Faith

The Belgic Confession

The London Baptist Confession of 1689

Also, http://www.monergism.com has many Reformed resources.

Edited by Cynic
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Most of that I don't have issue with, but a few things I wonder about. I believe in the perseverence of saints. . . it is scriptural. I can see coming fully to Christ. . . having been drawn by the Holy Spirit. I now understand that. . . However, Jesus is ABLE to finish the good work in us. . .

"Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested."

What are common operations of the spirit. . . how does one partake in PART of it? Because they are not of the elect??

What about. . . "Whosoever will". . . may come?? OR "Come unto me ALL who are heavy laden. . . " "I will that all men be saved. . . " "The call is to you and to your children and to many who are afar off" . . . "Jesus tasted death for all men" . . .

It is not by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, but now it is PLUS election??

I understand true saving faith, which is unlike what we had in TWI. I get enemies of the cross. . . distinctions between people. . . but, Christ died for the ungodly, and we were all ungodly enemies. I know that we can't save ourselves. . . we are drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. . . but eternity has been put into the heart of all. Eccl. 3:11 "He has set eternity in their heart."

Christ's death is big enough for the sins of the world. . . for all men. And I know not all will be saved. . . Here is the thing I get confused about. . . freewill. . . He wants us to come to Him feely? No?

Too much for me to understand, but, the Calvinist view of the doctrine of election, seems rather hopeless. . . it discourages people, yet, I know that our problems are not too big for God. He is able.

This topic makes the trinity. . . which I actually do see. . . look like childs play.

To Add: Monergism is a great site as is http://theologica.ning.com/

Edited by geisha779
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I don't believe Father allows bad things to happen to us so we can learn or He can "use" us in some way to teach us or others. (Just my belief. It works for me. I do understand why some in this life believe otherwise.) We allow it by choices, beliefs, life habits, generational curses and just some stuff we can't explain. The stuff we can't explain is methods, wiles and schemes of the evil one. he comes to kill, steal and destroy.

he attempts to kill us, steal our health, beliefs, family etc. and destroy families, marriages etc. We are already complete in Christ. We already have everything Father is going to give us. What we do with it is up to us.

If Father were in charge we would be a lot better off. Ephesians 3:20. Father is able to do....but according to the power that works in us. Our charge is Christ the Head of His Body. He is the brain, the mind. So many times in my life I tried to figure out all the ways He could resolve something!!! Ha!! Ha!!

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Most of that I don't have issue with, but a few things I wonder about. I believe in the perseverence of saints. . . it is scriptural. I can see coming fully to Christ. . . having been drawn by the Holy Spirit. I now understand that. . . However, Jesus is ABLE to finish the good work in us. . .

"Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested."

What are common operations of the spirit. . . how does one partake in PART of it? Because they are not of the elect??

Jesus indicated he would deny and would say he had never known some who would cite their prophesying, casting out of demons, and performing of mighty works (in His name) to attempt to identify themselves as believers at the time of judgment. I don’t know how one can have operations of the Spirit without really being Christ’s, but there are scriptural indications that it is possible. I speculate that some people might partake in operations of the Spirit that move in the visible church or through those in ministry offices, despite the fact that some visible church members and holders of ministerial offices are unregenerate. Caiphas was a conspirator against and enemy of Christ, but he prophesied concerning Christ through what possibly was an operation of the Spirit.

What about. . . "Whosoever will". . . may come?? OR "Come unto me ALL who are heavy laden. . . " "I will that all men be saved. . . " "The call is to you and to your children and to many who are afar off" . . . "Jesus tasted death for all men" . . .

These are questions that touch on election, limited atonement, and some other things. I highly recommend reading

"Are There Two Wills in God? Divine Election and God’s Desire for All to Be Saved, by John Piper. It is an excellent and theologically robust piece.

( http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary...o_Wills_in_God/ )

There seem to be an aspect of God's will that is inviting and accepting in a general sense, and an aspect of God's will that is so in a discriminating sense. Jesus did not seem to be wooing followers in the chapter-6 section of John's gospel where he told masses following him that no one could come to Him, except the Father draw him: (John 6:44)

It is not by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, but now it is PLUS election??

Genuine, saving faith is brought about in the elect by the Holy Spirit through His effectual calling of them. The WCF states: “they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season." The reprobate (non-elect) might respond in some way (e.g. they can answer an altar call, pray, attend church, smile at Christians, tithe) to the general call of the Gospel, but are not effectually called, and do not have genuine faith.

An illustration of the difference between the general call of the Gospel and the effectual call of the Spirit working through the Gospel is John Bunyan’s (The Pilgrim's Progress) contrast between the sounds of a chicks-calling hen that is heard throughout the barnyard and the act of the hen who subsequently goes and gathers her own to herself.

I understand true saving faith, which is unlike what we had in TWI. I get enemies of the cross. . . distinctions between people. . . but, Christ died for the ungodly, and we were all ungodly enemies. I know that we can't save ourselves. . . we are drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. . . but eternity has been put into the heart of all. Eccl. 3:11 "He has set eternity in their heart."

Christ's death is big enough for the sins of the world. . . for all men. And I know not all will be saved. . . Here is the thing I get confused about. . . freewill. . . He wants us to come to Him feely? No?

Too much for me to understand, but, the Calvinist view of the doctrine of election, seems rather hopeless. . . it discourages people, yet, I know that our problems are not too big for God. He is able.

We cannot see into the mind of God to know his decrees. The so-called Westminster divines recognized that “the doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care.” The doctrine can be unsettling, but it does not unsettle all people. I think it is particularly abhorrent to ex-Wayfers, many of whom seemed attracted to PFAL’s law of believing as their super-duper protector against death, disease, and natural evil, and a appropriator of salvation, health, and prosperity from a heavenly benefactor who had passively limited himself to their believing.

I came to believe in unconditional election reluctantly, only after recognizing there was a clear and undeniable representation of the truth in Loraine Boettner’s (The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination) statement:

“A further important proof that Paul taught the doctrine which Calvinists have understood him to teach is found in the objections which he put in the mouths of his opponents,—that it represented God as unrighteous: "Is there unrighteousness with God?" Rom. 9:14; and, that it destroyed man's responsibility: "Thou wilt then say unto me, Why doth He still find fault? For who withistandeth [sic] His will?" Rom. 9:19. These are the very objections which today, on first thought, spring into men's minds, in opposition to the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination; but they have not even the least plausibility when directed against the Arminian doctrine. A doctrine which does not afford the least grounds for these objections cannot have been the one that the Apostle taught.” (See http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.v.iii.html .)

This topic makes the trinity. . . which I actually do see. . . look like childs play.

To Add: Monergism is a great site as is http://theologica.ning.com/

Calvinists irritate me sometimes with their monomania about several topics (e.g. election, predestination, limited atonement) of discussion, but I'm prone to grow irritated in my standard mode. I am concerned, nonetheless, that Reformed distinctives take up too much of the Reformed conversion that should involve much more Christology than it usually does.

I recall someone (probably Boettner or Arthur Pink), however, stating that Calvinism is strong scriptural medication for folks for whom no other remedy is going to do. I don’t have knowledge about the souls of other Reformed Christians, but the statement fits well in my case.

Edited by Cynic
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Yeah, I feel like I know what I know, and all this theological argument is making my head ache.

I think it's a Billy Joel song that has this great line in it:

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints..the sinners are much more fun"

Can't imagine spending eternity with a bunch of dour, self-righteous smug, saints like Calvin, Spurgeon and Dr***col.

Jeez! I need some ibuprofen and a beer!

WG

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Jesus indicated he would deny and would say he had never known some who would cite their prophesying, casting out of demons, and performing of mighty works (in His name) to attempt to identify themselves as believers at the time of judgment. I don't know how one can have operations of the Spirit without really being Christ's, but there are scriptural indications that it is possible. I speculate that some people might partake in operations of the Spirit that move in the visible church or through those in ministry offices, despite the fact that some visible church members and holders of ministerial offices are unregenerate. Caiphas was a conspirator against and enemy of Christ, but he prophesied concerning Christ through what possibly was an operation of the Spirit.

Hi Cynic,

Thank-you for your thoughtful reply. Yes, I have pondered and pondered this account of Jesus separating the sheep from the goats. Having been in TWI, and then come to a different faith, as you can well imagine, a sobering account. Having lived it, it is a very real and understandable distinction. It does appear that some do partake, yet do not belong to the Lord. . . or of the flock.

Ironically, not only did God use Caiphas, but it was actually his DUTY as the High Priest to prophesy. It is just amazing that God used him for His purpose, and it was his role anyway.

God also used Balaam and his donkey. God may use whatever He wills and it usually shows the folly of human wisdom when He uses foolish things.

These are questions that touch on election, limited atonement, and some other things. I highly recommend reading

"Are There Two Wills in God? Divine Election and God's Desire for All to Be Saved, by John Piper. It is an excellent and theologically robust piece.

( http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary...o_Wills_in_God/ )

I have saved this to read today. I love reading Piper. His writing on God's attributes are amazing. I found a few other things on Theologica I want to read as well.

There seems to be an aspect of God's will that is inviting and accepting in a general sense, and an aspect of God's will that is so in a discriminating sense. Jesus did not seem to be wooing followers in the chapter-6 section of John's gospel where he told masses following him that no one could come to Him, except the Father draw him: (John 6:44)

Yes, and there is the account(John17) of Jesus praying for those whom God has given Him, not on behalf of the world. I do see the distinction made in the gospels.

I also see a distinction made by Jesus concerning Israel, who He came for, and the gentiles. Although it would be the gentiles who would make up the majority of those who believed, He still drew a line. (Matthew 15)

He was saying Israel was going to be fed first, because Israel was supposed to be the example, but it got turned around to the gentiles provoking them to jealousy.

Why God chooses is a mystery and how He chooses ???. Israel wasn't choosen because they were better. God designed to use one group of people as a light. BUT, as long as others conformed, they could convert and be part of Israel.

Israel was designated as first, but the purpose was for them to take it to others.

God didn't include a certain group of people to exclude others. He is God He doesn't change. . . . . . . which is why I have questions about the Calvanist doctrine of election.

The Canaanite woman who was only asking for the crumbs. . . figuratively. . . . she asked, right before Jesus was getting ready to feed the 4,000 plus people with loaves of bread. What did He say?? "I don't want to send them away hungry, they might FAINT on the way"

He often used the basic necessities of life, to point out the eternal. Faith, Faith, Faith. . . . .

He IS inclusive. Lots of questions???

BUT, He also used this occasion to warn against the leaven. . . Pharisees. . . false teachers and religious. They, were concerned about the inclusion/exclusion.

Genuine, saving faith is brought about in the elect by the Holy Spirit through His effectual calling of them. The WCF states: "they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season." The reprobate (non-elect) might respond in some way (e.g. they can answer an altar call, pray, attend church, smile at Christians, tithe) to the general call of the Gospel, but are not effectually called, and do not have genuine faith.

Aaaaah, but they can ask for it.No? He is able to complete the work which is begun in them. That is why the disciples, when they said. . . send the Canaanite woman away. . . Jesus rebuked them for it.

He also tells us to snatch those caught in the fire. . . . pray that God grant them repentance. Why pray if they are not of the elect? Lots of questions I have?? If they hear . . . can they not go to the Lord and ask for saving faith?? I don't believe He will deny them. . . I am living proof.

God is able. . . we are all designed to reach out to Him. We don't say you can't join our HE MAN -- WOMAN HATERS ClUB. :)

An illustration of the difference between the general call of the Gospel and the effectual call of the Spirit working through the Gospel is John Bunyan's (The Pilgrim's Progress) contrast between the sounds of a chicks-calling hen that is heard throughout the barnyard and the act of the hen who subsequently goes and gathers her own to herself.

I have this book, I should finish it. I do see the distinction, I really do. . .but, we can't be like the Pharisees who took the sinful life of the gentiles and turned it into a we/them mentality.

We cannot see into the mind of God to know his decrees. The so-called Westminster divines recognized that "the doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care." The doctrine can be unsettling, but it does not unsettle all people. I think it is particularly abhorrent to ex-Wayfers, many of whom seemed attracted to PFAL's law of believing as their super-duper protector against death, disease, and natural evil, and a appropriator of salvation, health, and prosperity from a heavenly benefactor who had passively limited himself to their believing.

I came to believe in unconditional election reluctantly, only after recognizing there was a clear and undeniable representation of the truth in Loraine Boettner's (The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination) statement:

"A further important proof that Paul taught the doctrine which Calvinists have understood him to teach is found in the objections which he put in the mouths of his opponents,—that it represented God as unrighteous: "Is there unrighteousness with God?" Rom. 9:14; and, that it destroyed man's responsibility: "Thou wilt then say unto me, Why doth He still find fault? For who withistandeth [sic] His will?" Rom. 9:19. These are the very objections which today, on first thought, spring into men's minds, in opposition to the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination; but they have not even the least plausibility when directed against the Arminian doctrine. A doctrine which does not afford the least grounds for these objections cannot have been the one that the Apostle taught." (See http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.v.iii.html .)

Agreed. It is a difficult doctrine to come to. . . but for me, it is exactly opposite of the reasons you stated. It is because I was so lost, and out there floating on that sea of false teaching. . .and for a time no belief in Him. . Cynic, I didn't find myself. . . He came after me. . . I agree. But, who am I. . . not the best, but the worst of the TWI remnant. I am serious. If He came for me. . . useless and unfaithful. . . proud and blind, I know He can come for others. . . and break through. I am not worthy of such grace or love. . . .none of us are. . . see my issue.

I may be sheepish, but I have a hard time following the Shepherd.

Calvinists irritate me sometimes with their monomania about several topics (e.g. election, predestination, limited atonement) of discussion, but I'm prone to grow irritated in my standard mode. I am concerned, nonetheless, that Reformed distinctives take up too much of the Reformed conversion that should involve much more Christology than it usually does.

Yes. . . exactly

I recall someone (probably Boettner or Arthur Pink), however, stating that Calvinism is strong scriptural medication for folks for whom no other remedy is going to do. I don't have knowledge about the souls of other Reformed Christians, but the statement fits well in my case.

Me too. It is what I needed as well. . . John MacArthur as an example, is great for ex-way. . . for a time, but, I just think that for some of us. . . too much can make us hopeless.

The reason I think this is because of what allowed us to be drawn into false teaching in the first place. Being weighed down and burdened by sin. What causes that? Not having a clear understanding of what was accomplished on the cross. . .faith in Christ. What He did. . . it get's into some heady issues. Our understanding of Jesus. . . our knowledge of the cross. . . and to jump from that misunderstanding to" limited atonement" without ever hearing the true loving things of God and His work. . .can cause us to jump from one ear tickle to the next. . . frustrated.

However, God is able.

He is really about hope. . . able to use whatever, to draw us to Him.

Edited by geisha779
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I don't believe Father allows bad things to happen to us so we can learn or He can "use" us in some way to teach us or others. (Just my belief. It works for me. I do understand why some in this life believe otherwise.) We allow it by choices, beliefs, life habits, generational curses and just some stuff we can't explain. The stuff we can't explain is methods, wiles and schemes of the evil one. he comes to kill, steal and destroy.

he attempts to kill us, steal our health, beliefs, family etc. and destroy families, marriages etc. We are already complete in Christ. We already have everything Father is going to give us. What we do with it is up to us.

If Father were in charge we would be a lot better off. Ephesians 3:20. Father is able to do....but according to the power that works in us. Our charge is Christ the Head of His Body. He is the brain, the mind. So many times in my life I tried to figure out all the ways He could resolve something!!! Ha!! Ha!!

Why do you hold this belief? I am trying to follow your logic. You don't believe in a sovereign God?

Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

Not to be brash, but, you must seriously consider rethinking all Way theology. According to Way doctrine, God is sitting in heaven with Jesus at his right hand, both twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the gathering together. If we truly believe in the God of the bible, we must believe in a sovereign Lord. He is omnipotent, which means that nothing in the universe or your life can happen without God allowing it to happen. This means the sparrows falling to the ground, the hairs on your head growing or falling out, or earthquakes, famines, or 9/11. We can question why God allows anything to happen, but it is folly to have such a low opinion of God and a high opinion of our knowledge.

Here is something to think about, God allowed the most traumatic event in human history to occur unimpeded. The crucifixion of His beloved Son. Yet, He used this for man's greatest gain, our salvation. You don't believe God foreordained this, that He used people to accomplish it? God does not give His power to anyone else. He would not then be an all powerful God.

To equate a Christian life to some kind of cosmic chess game where God has to counter each move of Satan's pawns with a counter move, gives too much credit to Satan. God never lost control, He is in charge now, and has been since before creation.

Psalm 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

God not only ordained David's life, He has ordained everything. The infinite mind of God compared to the limited mind of man.

Ironically, the verse you used to give the devil way more credit than he is due is speaking specifically about false shepherds. I hope the irony is not lost on you. It is a direct correllation to Ezekiel 34. Funny how Wierwille opens the class with this because he is a prime example of a false shepherd, teaching you how your needs will be met(If you follow his teaching), while he is fleecing you.

Ezekiel 34: 7 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.11 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them.

In John chapter 10 Jesus declares HIMSELF to be the good true shepherd in contrast to the false self-appointed shepherds. The steal, kill, and destroy is talking about leading people away with false teaching. Much like we learned in the Way about God not being in charge and ascribing power to the devil he just doesn't have. VPW, took the temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4, and used that to say that as the god of this world the devil ultimately controlled everything.

Which is in direct opposition to the first verse in Matthew 4, " What does it say here? 1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." He was led by the Spirit. God led Him there to be tested."

That steal, kill, and destroy doesn't mean Satan has the power to do whatever he wills, he is still in subjection to God. As is everything in creation. God ALLOWS things to happen, BUT, He uses them for HIS good. What does Joseph say in Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."

As far as the according to the power which works in us? This must be taken in its direct context. Otherwise, if we were in charge of our salvation, or keeping it for that matter, we would be lost before breakfast. Who do you think is in charge of that?

We never held a high understanding of God or His true authority in the Way, we always gave the devil way more deference and due.

God is omnipotent not impotent.

Edited by Spoudazo
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I think it was Ezekial?, where God told him He was going to kill his wife, and Ezekial? was not to cry. Then God killed his wife. Not that she did anything far as I know. Just so Ezekial? would be an example to Israel.

Jesus spoke of the tower falling and killing people. He said it wasn't cause of anything they did.

Oh, the book of Job. Plain as day.

I like to mess with wayfers sometimes.

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Why do you hold this belief? I am trying to follow your logic. You don't believe in a sovereign God?

Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

Not to be brash, but, you must seriously consider rethinking all Way theology. According to Way doctrine, God is sitting in heaven with Jesus at his right hand, both twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the gathering together. If we truly believe in the God of the bible, we must believe in a sovereign Lord. He is omnipotent, which means that nothing in the universe or your life can happen without God allowing it to happen. This means the sparrows falling to the ground, the hairs on your head growing or falling out, or earthquakes, famines, or 9/11. We can question why God allows anything to happen, but it is folly to have such a low opinion of God and a high opinion of our knowledge.

Here is something to think about, God allowed the most traumatic event in human history to occur unimpeded. The crucifixion of His beloved Son. Yet, He used this for man's greatest gain, our salvation. You don't believe God foreordained this, that He used people to accomplish it? God does not give His power to anyone else. He would not then be an all powerful God.

To equate a Christian life to some kind of cosmic chess game where God has to counter each move of Satan's pawns with a counter move, gives too much credit to Satan. God never lost control, He is in charge now, and has been since before creation.

Psalm 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

God not only ordained David's life, He has ordained everything. The infinite mind of God compared to the limited mind of man.

Ironically, the verse you used to give the devil way more credit than he is due is speaking specifically about false shepherds. I hope the irony is not lost on you. It is a direct correllation to Ezekiel 34. Funny how Wierwille opens the class with this because he is a prime example of a false shepherd, teaching you how your needs will be met(If you follow his teaching), while he is fleecing you.

Ezekiel 34: 7 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.11 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them.

In John chapter 10 Jesus declares HIMSELF to be the good true shepherd in contrast to the false self-appointed shepherds. The steal, kill, and destroy is talking about leading people away with false teaching. Much like we learned in the Way about God not being in charge and ascribing power to the devil he just doesn't have. VPW, took the temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4, and used that to say that as the god of this world the devil ultimately controlled everything.

Which is in direct opposition to the first verse in Matthew 4, " What does it say here? 1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." He was led by the Spirit. God led Him there to be tested."

That steal, kill, and destroy doesn't mean Satan has the power to do whatever he wills, he is still in subjection to God. As is everything in creation. God ALLOWS things to happen, BUT, He uses them for HIS good. What does Joseph say in Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."

As far as the according to the power which works in us? This must be taken in its direct context. Otherwise, if we were in charge of our salvation, or keeping it for that matter, we would be lost before breakfast. Who do you think is in charge of that?

We never held a high understanding of God or His true authority in the Way, we always gave the devil way more deference and due.

God is omnipotent not impotent.

Spoudazo,

Good post! It seems your choice of avatars was thoughtful and deliberate.

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Cynic, you say that John 10:10 refers to false shepherds who would lead the sheep away, yet I see no reason why your interpretation is any more or less accurate than Wierwille's. Jesus does announce Himself as the Good Shepherd, in comparison to hired hands who would abandon the sheep (The Amplified Bible). I don't see anything about false shepherds in the interlinear I'm looking at, either.

And it doesn't make a bit of sense to me that God has to be micromanaging everybody's lives either. What? I dropped my toothbrush this morning! God foreordained I drop it before the foundations of the earth, and that it would be a blue Crest toothbrush at that!

WG

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Cynic, you say that John 10:10 refers to false shepherds who would lead the sheep away, yet I see no reason why your interpretation is any more or less accurate than Wierwille's. Jesus does announce Himself as the Good Shepherd, in comparison to hired hands who would abandon the sheep (The Amplified Bible). I don't see anything about false shepherds in the interlinear I'm looking at, either.

And it doesn't make a bit of sense to me that God has to be micromanaging everybody's lives either. What? I dropped my toothbrush this morning! God foreordained I drop it before the foundations of the earth, and that it would be a blue Crest toothbrush at that!

WG

WG,

It was actually Spoudazo who offered the interpretation in question.

Although I have a high overall regard for Spoudazo's post, I am not ready to endorse the subject interpretation. I am uncomfortable with my grasp of the nuances of Jesus' discourse, and I am rather clueless about the identity of those whom Jesus referred to as having come before him. I would have to spend some time considering it.

There are more bad hombres than the hirelings you apparently find in your interlinear, however. In addition to the hireling, who is said to flee at the approach of the wolf, there is the thief who comes to steal, kill, destroy.

Edited by Cynic
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Cynic, you say that John 10:10 refers to false shepherds who would lead the sheep away, yet I see no reason why your interpretation is any more or less accurate than Wierwille's. Jesus does announce Himself as the Good Shepherd, in comparison to hired hands who would abandon the sheep (The Amplified Bible). I don't see anything about false shepherds in the interlinear I'm looking at, either.

And it doesn't make a bit of sense to me that God has to be micromanaging everybody's lives either. What? I dropped my toothbrush this morning! God foreordained I drop it before the foundations of the earth, and that it would be a blue Crest toothbrush at that!

WG

Just to keep things straight this is not my interpretation, there is not a commentary I can find that does not use the same comparison. To clarify my post for you Watered Garden, and Cynic as well, let me try to set the stage. John chapter 10 takes place during the Feasts of Booths(Chapter 7:1 - 10:21). By this time, three attempts had been made on Jesus' life. Starting in chapter 5 these chapters are detailing the opposition to Jesus' claim of being the Son of God.

Again, He is at a feast, the blind man was just healed ----the cast of characters present were the Pharisees, the Jews, and also His disciples. By the way, this is not a parable, John does not record the parables. This is a long uninterrupted speech of Jesus' which contains the figures of speech simile and comparison. We can agree that Jesus claims to be the "Good Shepherd" the questions we have is who is the theif, also called Robbers, Hirelings, and Strangers etc. etc.

Jesus is addressing someone in the crowd. The scene is almost like a debate, remember in John 9 the Pharisees condemned Jesus for healing the blind man and on the sabbath as well. He then turned around and called them the truly blind. They are following Him around trying to kill Him, and dissuade His followers, constant challenges to His claims as the Son of God.

Jesus begins the descriptions of who the theif is:

* he does not enter by the door, but climb up some other way.

* The true sheep will flee from him

* When he sees the wolf coming he leaves the sheep and flees.

This discourse is setting the stage for how Jesus is going to build His true church. He is now specifically dealing with those in the fold acting as false shepherds. He explains in detail the greatest threat to the sheep. The threat He is trying to protect them from is those within the fold who would use the sheep (Fleece them) and flee when the wolf(Devil) comes.

These are those who steal hearts and affections from Jesus, who kill spiritually, destroy with damnable heresy. Much like VP Wierwille.

He has got this cast of characters together-who is He speaking to? The Pharisees. These were the men who were entrusted to feed the flock. This was what they were suppose to be doing, yet they were trying to kill the Messiah and enslave the people to religion. The Pharisees had a conceit of knowledge and could not bear it to be questioned. These were who He was speaking to and about. The false teachers of the day.

The Pharisees were using people for gain, while Jesus was explaining to them that He was going to die for the sheep. He claimed that there is only one door for the sheep and one Shepherd, and it wasn't them. He is talking about the total care the shepherd must have for the sheep against the backdrop of the Pharisees ruthless treatment of a blind man. They were also present with the woman caught in adultery, they didn't like the way the woman at the well spoke of Jesus, Nicodemus had to come by night, and so on.

The OT is full of Good Shepherd, false Shepherd analogies. We lived it, so it should be much clearer for us. Matthew Henry's commentary can explain it far better than I can. Look at the cross references in your bible, that will be helpful.

I tend to ramble. The understanding comes within the context. Even a cursory reading will shed some light on it. Consider it in light of your time in The Way.

As for the toothbrush falling, I am not sure how to answer that. Psalm 139 might be helpful:

2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

5You hem me in— behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.

7Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.

11If I say, Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,

12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.

13For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

17How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum ofthem!

18 Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you.

19If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!

20 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name.

21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you?

22 I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.

23Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.

24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting

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