Well, I mean, it's obvious God knows in His foreknowledge of all things who will and will not be saved. But as a loving Father He would be absolutely thrilled if that included everyone. Sadly for Him (and us) not everyone will accept the mercy, forgiveness, grace and love extended through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
There's a great book, "The Prodigal God" by Timothy Keller, that is being used in our church as a teaching platform, and I intend to purchase and read it at some time. "Prodigal" means wildly and lavishly spending or giving, and the book looks at the parable of the prodigal son from a whole different and more detailed perspective.
Look, I don't want to be a Calvinist, a Methodist, an Episcopalian, or a (gasp) Wayfer. I want to be a child of my Heavenly Father.
This is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
This is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Good Grief!
WG
I can understand your sentiment...but it isn't, really.
Now I don't say this from a Calvinist perspective, not being one myself.
But it really does matter if God meant predestination or if he meant simply foreknowledge that seems like predestination.
If we (our 'free will') are the hinge upon which salvation rests, if God has made his move and now is waiting for us to make ours and has placed his workings in a subordinate role to our action or faith, then our walk is fraught with uncertainty, as it well should. I have good reason to be uncertain about myself!
But if God's plan is entirely in his hands and he will call you, save you and guide you until Christ be perfected in you then you can rest easy knowing he is in charge. He will be faithful to complete what he has begun. This is where the peace that so many are missing rests.
The Evan that is a very comforting statement and one I can agree with. It kind of brings me back to where I was three years ago.
I've been on a long journey that led me through "women must be silent in the church at all times", salvation by works (in my opinion), and now "you can be saved and still go to hell if you aren't one of the Elect." So I'm a little footsore, not to mention heartsore.
Oddly enough, the stuff that's being taught in our church is not what I would call Calvinism. It's more like what you said.
The Evan that is a very comforting statement and one I can agree with. It kind of brings me back to where I was three years ago.
I've been on a long journey that led me through "women must be silent in the church at all times", salvation by works (in my opinion), and now "you can be saved and still go to hell if you aren't one of the Elect." So I'm a little footsore, not to mention heartsore.
Oddly enough, the stuff that's being taught in our church is not what I would call Calvinism. It's more like what you said.
So thanks.
WG
Can you identify and provide a link to anything written by any Calvinistic theologian that indicates someone can be saved despite being non-elect?
I don't know jack .... about Calvinism, that's why I'm asking someone else to explain it. My impression is the elect are going to heaven no matter how bad they are and the nonelect go to hell no matter how good they are, and I'm asking someone to explain election by predestination in plain 20th century English, which seems to be a challenge even to its most ardent defenders. I don't want a bunch of extrapolated Bible verses thrown at me; the next person can throw another bunch of extrapolated Bible verses that contradict the first bunch.
I am NOT trying to make anyone defend their beliefs or lack thereof. I started asking questions because Time Magazine named "New Calvinism" as the third most important idea influencing the world today. My personal experience with Biblical research and teaching is limited pretty much to the Way Ministry classes, and a few others.
So please let's don't start on that "prove your point with concrete information" crap, okay. You seem to be very offended that I would ask questions or make statements you perceive as negative or whatever; I'm not trying to offend you, okay? Believe what you will.
Yeah, I remember the ice cream cone analogy, which also makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure that's what Calvin was talking about, but then from his biographical information on wikipedia he sounds like a very harsh fellow who brooked no discussion of any beliefs other than his own.
Actually the ice cream cone analogy is probably a better explanation than anyone else could come up with. I don't have a problem with that at all. G@il W. was a pretty smart guy!
It's not the predestination part that bothers me; it's the elect.
It might give you some comfort, however, to notice that Time ranked "The New Calvinism" after "Recycling the Suburbs" in its top 10 list of purportedly world-changing "ideas."
Unconditional election is something that flows from the eternal self-counsel of God into redemptive history: God elects (Eph. 1:4-5), Christ redeems (Eph. 1:7) those whom God has elected, the Holy Spirit seals (Eph. 1:13) those whom God has elected and Christ has redeemed.
Faith in Christ is something grounded in election (Acts 13:48) and brought about in the elect through the effectual calling of the Spirit (Eph.2:8) and the hearing of the Word. Not all those who hear the general call of the gospel have been appointed to eternal life, effectually called, and brought to true faith in Christ.
I don't know jack .... about Calvinism, that's why I'm asking someone else to explain it. My impression is the elect are going to heaven no matter how bad they are and the nonelect go to hell no matter how good they are, and I'm asking someone to explain election by predestination in plain 20th century English, which seems to be a challenge even to its most ardent defenders. I don't want a bunch of extrapolated Bible verses thrown at me; the next person can throw another bunch of extrapolated Bible verses that contradict the first bunch.
I'll do my best with it. Again bear in mind I don't speak for Calvinism, though I do believe in their doctrine of election as I understand it. I find their approach to articulating their beliefs pedantic at times, sometimes very much so. I hope you find my less precise language will contain something useful to you.
The elect do not go to heaven "no matter how bad they are". Nor do they go to heaven "no matter what". They must hear the gospel, be enlightened to their wretched state and need for a Savior, repent and believe. They are then heaven-bound, not on the merit of their election, but on the merit of Christ's sacrifice alone. That said, election says that a response of faith to the gospel is a work of the Holy Spirit, not because some enlightened soul woke up one day and thought it grand idea to repent and be saved.
There are some erroneous responses or beliefs about predestination/election. Some take it as "whatever will be will be". For them, "faith" is an impersonal, stoic thing. They adopt a sort of religious fatalism. Why try? Why witness? After all, whatever will, will be, right? This wrong. Though man is not the master of his own destiny, the scripture still makes each person responsible for their own soul. Furthermore, God is not arbitrary, as many have depicted him. That is another wrong take on election & predestination. Nothing about God is arbitrary. Everything is according to a specific plan, for his purposes and glory. That we fail to understand his ways doesn't make him arbitrary.
In summary, salvation is shown as being God's work in Christ
Damnation is shown as being man's own work and responsibility.
But then again I'm not really a calvinist. (My good calvinist friend calls me a 3.75 point calvinist, but I wouldn't know :) )
Thanks again, TheEvan. I appreciate the explanation and find basically nothing to disagree with there. Thanks for being patient with me.
And Garth, that was one of the points the "Times" article made; that New Calvinists are more evangelical and active seek the lost. That also makes more sense in light of TheEvan's explanation.
Sounds like Calvinism (mongst other religions) has a formula...just like twi...for bein goodenuff.
And Spoudazo, you strongly suggest I reconsider my Way thinking theology? Obviously, you have not read much about me here. Therefore, carry on, oh great holy one. Ain't buyin in that Ephesians 3:20 is about salvation. Ain't buyin your other crap about how bad my Father is. eweeww, and what if I don't reconsider my thinking? Your big bad evil god is gonna what?
What works for you, works for you. What works for me works for me. That is grace. And that is beautiful.
It is risky to recommend something you have not read, listened to, or watched, yet I think those having a desire to know more about predestination, unconditional election, and God’s sovereignty might benefit from some of the teachings of R.C. Sproul, who has Ligonier Ministries.
Let’s see if I can sum you up in one statement, repeat these words next time you look in the mirror: I never did anything I didn’t want to hear.
Ahh but no big deal, It’s not like I was ever looking in your direction for friendship. Your always right Garth, especially when those around you are telling you stuff you like to hear. After years of VPW, you ought to know better than to swallow everything you hear hook line and sinker. You never did believe one word I ever told you anyway, so what difference does it make today from back then? Absolutely stinking nothing. Of course, I am sure your still grinding on people that have faith, so your taking a little breather from that today. Who knows, perhaps after a while the “brotherhood” of yesteryear with your pals will be restored, you know, when you can find other reasons to grind. Happy high fiving.
Anyway have a good one, I wont be back to post for a long long time even if you do reply. Just do not have one sound bite these days that would click for someone like you anyway.
Let’s see if I can sum you up in one statement, repeat these words next time you look in the mirror: I never did anything I didn’t want to hear.
"I never did anything I didn't want to hear." ... O-k-a-y, .... whatever.
(more drivel)
Your always right Garth, especially when those around you are telling you stuff you like to hear.
Really? ... Ya know, whenever I hear someone say something along the lines of "So you think you're always right, doncha!?" or "So you think you're better than me!" or similar statements, it usually reminds me of how a little kid would blurt out "So you think that you're daddy is better than mine!!" before taking all of his toys in a huff and heading home. So I don't give those kind of statements any more mind.
(further drivel follows)
Anyway have a good one, I wont be back to post for a long long time even if you do reply. Just do not have one sound bite these days that would click for someone like you anyway.
Typical. Hit and run drive-by poster. ... Oh well, hasta la vista to you too.
I find it interesting that Calvin spent years and years writing "Institutes of the Christian Religion" in flowery, scholarly, and very complex language.
Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, soul, mind and strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Somebody knew what He was talking about. I think I'll walk with Him and not worry too much about all this fol-de-rol, high falutin' religious claptrap.
By the way, I wanted to thank Sky4It for starting this topic. It was very helpful to me in understanding what was going on in the church plant with which we were formerly involved.
By the way, I wanted to thank Sky4It for starting this topic. It was very helpful to me in understanding what was going on in the church plant with which we were formerly involved.
WG
Your very welcome Watered Garden, and thank you for your patience in getting me to respond back to you. I hope you had time to read what I wrote to you under the other thread you started about unconfessed sin. Also, God Bless you, and thanks for your enthusiasm, it is gently contagious.
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GarthP2000
And Calvin and his mindset was the 'Honey Wagon'.
Mark Clarke
God doesn't cause the problems, but He does allow them, because He is God and He is in charge. That is comforting to me, because it assures me that nothing is beyond His control. But He doesn't allo
Cynic
My-my! What wild flailings at the doctrine of unconditional election. You have struck only a few “hyper-Calvinists” (e.g. some Primitive Baptists), who reputedly held election to work salvation in s
kimberly
Watered Garden, my sentiments, exactly.
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kimberly
Watered Garden, the more I think about it, maybe, the answer to election by predestination can be found in Tics and Tacks.
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Watered Garden
Well, I mean, it's obvious God knows in His foreknowledge of all things who will and will not be saved. But as a loving Father He would be absolutely thrilled if that included everyone. Sadly for Him (and us) not everyone will accept the mercy, forgiveness, grace and love extended through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
There's a great book, "The Prodigal God" by Timothy Keller, that is being used in our church as a teaching platform, and I intend to purchase and read it at some time. "Prodigal" means wildly and lavishly spending or giving, and the book looks at the parable of the prodigal son from a whole different and more detailed perspective.
Look, I don't want to be a Calvinist, a Methodist, an Episcopalian, or a (gasp) Wayfer. I want to be a child of my Heavenly Father.
This is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Good Grief!
WG
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TheEvan
I can understand your sentiment...but it isn't, really.
Now I don't say this from a Calvinist perspective, not being one myself.
But it really does matter if God meant predestination or if he meant simply foreknowledge that seems like predestination.
If we (our 'free will') are the hinge upon which salvation rests, if God has made his move and now is waiting for us to make ours and has placed his workings in a subordinate role to our action or faith, then our walk is fraught with uncertainty, as it well should. I have good reason to be uncertain about myself!
But if God's plan is entirely in his hands and he will call you, save you and guide you until Christ be perfected in you then you can rest easy knowing he is in charge. He will be faithful to complete what he has begun. This is where the peace that so many are missing rests.
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Watered Garden
The Evan that is a very comforting statement and one I can agree with. It kind of brings me back to where I was three years ago.
I've been on a long journey that led me through "women must be silent in the church at all times", salvation by works (in my opinion), and now "you can be saved and still go to hell if you aren't one of the Elect." So I'm a little footsore, not to mention heartsore.
Oddly enough, the stuff that's being taught in our church is not what I would call Calvinism. It's more like what you said.
So thanks.
WG
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waysider
WG
A while ago, I posted an interesting take on predestination that G. W!neg@rner used to teach.
I can't seem to remember where it is, though.
It's the ice cream cone analogy.
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Cynic
Can you identify and provide a link to anything written by any Calvinistic theologian that indicates someone can be saved despite being non-elect?
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Watered Garden
I don't know jack .... about Calvinism, that's why I'm asking someone else to explain it. My impression is the elect are going to heaven no matter how bad they are and the nonelect go to hell no matter how good they are, and I'm asking someone to explain election by predestination in plain 20th century English, which seems to be a challenge even to its most ardent defenders. I don't want a bunch of extrapolated Bible verses thrown at me; the next person can throw another bunch of extrapolated Bible verses that contradict the first bunch.
I am NOT trying to make anyone defend their beliefs or lack thereof. I started asking questions because Time Magazine named "New Calvinism" as the third most important idea influencing the world today. My personal experience with Biblical research and teaching is limited pretty much to the Way Ministry classes, and a few others.
So please let's don't start on that "prove your point with concrete information" crap, okay. You seem to be very offended that I would ask questions or make statements you perceive as negative or whatever; I'm not trying to offend you, okay? Believe what you will.
Yeah, I remember the ice cream cone analogy, which also makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure that's what Calvin was talking about, but then from his biographical information on wikipedia he sounds like a very harsh fellow who brooked no discussion of any beliefs other than his own.
Actually the ice cream cone analogy is probably a better explanation than anyone else could come up with. I don't have a problem with that at all. G@il W. was a pretty smart guy!
It's not the predestination part that bothers me; it's the elect.
WG
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Cynic
I didn’t think you could.
It might give you some comfort, however, to notice that Time ranked "The New Calvinism" after "Recycling the Suburbs" in its top 10 list of purportedly world-changing "ideas."
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Cynic
Unconditional election is something that flows from the eternal self-counsel of God into redemptive history: God elects (Eph. 1:4-5), Christ redeems (Eph. 1:7) those whom God has elected, the Holy Spirit seals (Eph. 1:13) those whom God has elected and Christ has redeemed.
Faith in Christ is something grounded in election (Acts 13:48) and brought about in the elect through the effectual calling of the Spirit (Eph.2:8) and the hearing of the Word. Not all those who hear the general call of the gospel have been appointed to eternal life, effectually called, and brought to true faith in Christ.
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Watered Garden
Cynic you just love to argue and sound all superior, don't you? You sound like WD in the last post.
I asked an honest question. I'm not trying to debate. You don't have the answer to my question so you just act all snotty and superior.
That's SO immature.
Never mind. I'll ask someone who knows.
Okay your very last post which I just now read sounds like an explanation. However, it just confirms what I thought.
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GarthP2000
Water Garden,
This statement in a recent post of yours in this thread gave me a hearty laugh:
Kinda explains why Calvinists aren't that active in evangelism for their faith; ... they just aren't very good at it. :lol:
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TheEvan
WG:
I'll do my best with it. Again bear in mind I don't speak for Calvinism, though I do believe in their doctrine of election as I understand it. I find their approach to articulating their beliefs pedantic at times, sometimes very much so. I hope you find my less precise language will contain something useful to you.
The elect do not go to heaven "no matter how bad they are". Nor do they go to heaven "no matter what". They must hear the gospel, be enlightened to their wretched state and need for a Savior, repent and believe. They are then heaven-bound, not on the merit of their election, but on the merit of Christ's sacrifice alone. That said, election says that a response of faith to the gospel is a work of the Holy Spirit, not because some enlightened soul woke up one day and thought it grand idea to repent and be saved.
There are some erroneous responses or beliefs about predestination/election. Some take it as "whatever will be will be". For them, "faith" is an impersonal, stoic thing. They adopt a sort of religious fatalism. Why try? Why witness? After all, whatever will, will be, right? This wrong. Though man is not the master of his own destiny, the scripture still makes each person responsible for their own soul. Furthermore, God is not arbitrary, as many have depicted him. That is another wrong take on election & predestination. Nothing about God is arbitrary. Everything is according to a specific plan, for his purposes and glory. That we fail to understand his ways doesn't make him arbitrary.
In summary, salvation is shown as being God's work in Christ
Damnation is shown as being man's own work and responsibility.
But then again I'm not really a calvinist. (My good calvinist friend calls me a 3.75 point calvinist, but I wouldn't know :) )
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Watered Garden
Thanks again, TheEvan. I appreciate the explanation and find basically nothing to disagree with there. Thanks for being patient with me.
And Garth, that was one of the points the "Times" article made; that New Calvinists are more evangelical and active seek the lost. That also makes more sense in light of TheEvan's explanation.
'Preciate you guys!
WG
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kimberly
Sounds like Calvinism (mongst other religions) has a formula...just like twi...for bein goodenuff.
And Spoudazo, you strongly suggest I reconsider my Way thinking theology? Obviously, you have not read much about me here. Therefore, carry on, oh great holy one. Ain't buyin in that Ephesians 3:20 is about salvation. Ain't buyin your other crap about how bad my Father is. eweeww, and what if I don't reconsider my thinking? Your big bad evil god is gonna what?
What works for you, works for you. What works for me works for me. That is grace. And that is beautiful.
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Cynic
It is risky to recommend something you have not read, listened to, or watched, yet I think those having a desire to know more about predestination, unconditional election, and God’s sovereignty might benefit from some of the teachings of R.C. Sproul, who has Ligonier Ministries.
Here is a result-page of a YouTube search:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type...nation&aq=f
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sky4it
Hey Garth:
Why don’t you go smoke your own pretzel?
Let’s see if I can sum you up in one statement, repeat these words next time you look in the mirror: I never did anything I didn’t want to hear.
Ahh but no big deal, It’s not like I was ever looking in your direction for friendship. Your always right Garth, especially when those around you are telling you stuff you like to hear. After years of VPW, you ought to know better than to swallow everything you hear hook line and sinker. You never did believe one word I ever told you anyway, so what difference does it make today from back then? Absolutely stinking nothing. Of course, I am sure your still grinding on people that have faith, so your taking a little breather from that today. Who knows, perhaps after a while the “brotherhood” of yesteryear with your pals will be restored, you know, when you can find other reasons to grind. Happy high fiving.
Anyway have a good one, I wont be back to post for a long long time even if you do reply. Just do not have one sound bite these days that would click for someone like you anyway.
Bye.
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GarthP2000
??? Where did this come from? :unsure:
"I never did anything I didn't want to hear." ... O-k-a-y, .... whatever.
(more drivel)
Really? ... Ya know, whenever I hear someone say something along the lines of "So you think you're always right, doncha!?" or "So you think you're better than me!" or similar statements, it usually reminds me of how a little kid would blurt out "So you think that you're daddy is better than mine!!" before taking all of his toys in a huff and heading home. So I don't give those kind of statements any more mind.
(further drivel follows)
Typical. Hit and run drive-by poster. ... Oh well, hasta la vista to you too.
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Watered Garden
This was a very interesting and informative thread...where did all this stuff thrown at Garth come from?
Garth is Garth. I don't always agree with him either but I've learned to appreciate him anyway.
WG
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Watered Garden
I find it interesting that Calvin spent years and years writing "Institutes of the Christian Religion" in flowery, scholarly, and very complex language.
Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, soul, mind and strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
Somebody knew what He was talking about. I think I'll walk with Him and not worry too much about all this fol-de-rol, high falutin' religious claptrap.
WG
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brideofjc
WG...I can see that you will not be signing up any too soon into the nearest seminary located conveniently near you!
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Watered Garden
Uh, no, don't think so!
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Watered Garden
By the way, I wanted to thank Sky4It for starting this topic. It was very helpful to me in understanding what was going on in the church plant with which we were formerly involved.
WG
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sky4it
Your very welcome Watered Garden, and thank you for your patience in getting me to respond back to you. I hope you had time to read what I wrote to you under the other thread you started about unconfessed sin. Also, God Bless you, and thanks for your enthusiasm, it is gently contagious.
peace
me
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