No. But because of most of the women consenting; it facilitated his adultery.
Now I understand.. it's kinda like.. the people who hand over their wallets and purses to the guy holding a gun.. they're FACILITATING his "weakness" for robbery..
poor weak guy.. all he wants is a little money.. er, a lot of money.. without working for it.
Poor fella..
victim of "consent"..
Maybe that's the answer.. just take all of those "evil" facilitators off the streets..
They "consented" because they were taught contrary to God's Word ..."
That may be someones rationale, but personally, I always thought that was a weak argument for the females to use, or to proclaim on behalf of the females.
It simply shifts all blame to someone else, in this case VPW. Is that fair?
"Because Dr. Wierwille says its ok and didn't teach me otherwise, then it is ok" Oh really?
Let's be frank ... adults , know that adultery is wrong.
We all learn this from our parents, from our Judeo-Christian society, from marriage, from our traditions, from our family and friends, from our own study of the bible;
Consider a possible scenario on Judgment Day;
Jesus: "why dear woman did you commit adultery with Dr. Wierwille"
Woman: "because I was taught contrary to God's Word that this would bless the man of God"
Jesus: "you mean you didn't know that adultery was wrong"?
"you didn't know Victor was a married man?"
Woman: "but Victor told me that it was ok and didn't teach me otherwise"
Jesus: "well then that must make it all ok"
***************************
Simply put, although VPW is guilty for his sins regardless (as we all are), I believe in individual moral accountability and responsibility for every adults' choices.
It simply shifts all blame to someone else, in this case VPW. Is that fair?
Not all blame. Although you have also said,
No. But because of most of the women consenting; it facilitated his adultery.
They participated in it, helped it along, encouraged it, gave it wings.
Desiring to "bless the man of God".
In the above statement you imply (IMHO) that vp already knew his weakness here. I'm suggesting that rather than seek to control himself he sought to explore his lusts. He looked for an end run around God's Word.
So here we have a man in his sixties. He goes to Haight-Ashbury and tries to find some Christians into orgies (I'm really over-simplifying here - so someone please correct me if I'm way off base.)
It's that time in the late '70's when there was a "sexual revolution." The atmosphere is ripe for an older "Father in the Word" figure to be able to convince young people already prone to bucking the system, that they could have sex with anyone as long as they could handle it and were spiritual enough. He taught that one part of the body was the same as any other part of the body.
Let's be frank ... adults , know that adultery is wrong.
Adults do know this. Young adults are more prone to bend rules. That's why vp was so happy to have found this group. I'm not suggesting that these young women are not to be held accountable for their actions. I'm certain that they have had to face more than their share of guilt, shame, self-doubt, and condemnation in their lives. Hopefully they have been able to seek forgiveness and peace.
We all learn this from our parents, from our Judeo-Christian society, from marriage, from our traditions, from our family and friends, from our own study of the bible;
Consider a possible scenario on Judgment Day;
Jesus: "why dear woman did you commit adultery with Dr. Wierwille"
Woman: "because I was taught contrary to God's Word that this would bless the man of God"
Jesus: "you mean you didn't know that adultery was wrong"?
"you didn't know Victor was a married man?"
Woman: "but Victor told me that it was ok and didn't teach me otherwise"
Jesus: "well then that must make it all ok"
***************************
Simply put, although VPW is guilty for his sins regardless (as we all are), I believe in individual moral accountability and responsibility for every adults' choices.
Okay. Let's try the reverse then.
Jesus: Victor - did you have have sex with women who weren't your wife?
vp - Yes.
Jesus - Did you know that adultery is wrong.
vp - Yes.
Jesus - Did you teach them it was alright to do this?
vp - Yes. But I also knew that all women belong to the King.
Jesus - I'm the King. I paid for those dear ones with my blood. They never belonged to you.
vp - hunh! I never really thought of it that way...
Jesus - Did you also drug young women and rape them while they were unconscious from those drugs?
vp- Yes.
Jesus - But you knew this wasn't what is written. You taught a lie and you acted on a lie. You knew this was wrong and you acted as a spokesman to teach something other than the truth. Why did you do this?
vp - They made it easy for me. They wanted to bless me. I told them what would bless me.
Jesus -Those women you raped....they weren't blessed. *rolls eyes* but as long as you were blessed that must make it all okay....
Vp knew much more and acted with stealth and intent. In fact let's quote what they used to teach in twi - "the more you know, the more you are responsible for."
I think the Bible says something to the effect that to him who much is given, much will be required.
That may be someones rationale, but personally, I always thought that was a weak argument for the females to use, or to proclaim on behalf of the females.
It simply shifts all blame to someone else, in this case VPW. Is that fair?
"Because Dr. Wierwille says its ok and didn't teach me otherwise, then it is ok" Oh really?
Let's be frank ... adults , know that adultery is wrong.
We all learn this from our parents, from our Judeo-Christian society, from marriage, from our traditions, from our family and friends, from our own study of the bible;
It's deeper than that and you know it.
Who was VPW to these women? He was the Apsotle, the Man of God for the whole world. He knew the Word like no one since the 1st century. God taught him directly since he threw out all his other books except his Bible.
While it is true that many of us believed before going into TWI that adultery was wrong, we also believed that Jesus was God and and the 10 commandment still applied to Christians. VPW taught a lot of "strange" doctrines that we believed contrary to what we hand been previously taught, so taking grace, freedom in Christ, and no condemnation to adultry is ok, is not a stretch for someone who ultimately trusted the Man of God for Our Day an Time to teach the rightly-divided word. If they could change on the Trinity & 1O commandments then they could change on adultery, especially when taught by the Man of God for the entire freaking world.
No, the "blame" belongs squarely with the one that deceived those that trusted him to teach the truth.
Consider a possible scenario on Judgment Day;
Jesus: "why dear woman did you commit adultery with Dr. Wierwille"
Woman: "because I was taught contrary to God's Word that this would bless the man of God"
Jesus: "you mean you didn't know that adultery was wrong"?
"you didn't know Victor was a married man?"
Woman: "but Victor told me that it was ok and didn't teach me otherwise"
Jesus: "well then that must make it all ok"
***************************
Simply put, although VPW is guilty for his sins regardless (as we all are), I believe in individual moral accountability and responsibility for every adults' choices.
Heres mine:
Jesus: Why Oldies did you defend and take up for a wolf in sheeps clothing?
Oldies: Uh, because I got delivered because of what he taught.
Jesus: Would that be where he taught that adultery was ok?
Oldies: I never heard that teaching, I was not there.
Jesus: Why Oldies, did you not comfort those that were taken advantage of instead cast blame on them?
Oldies: Because those women asked for it. They facilitated it! They knew better!
Jesus: Did not Victor know better ? Was he not their trusted teacher?
Oldiies: Yeah uh maybe. But I got delivered by Doctors teachings.
Jesus: Would that be the adultery teaching or the one on abortion? How did these deliver you?
Lest we forget the other side of the coin that catcups sister presented..
At 17 yrs old she was thrown off of the wow field and declared posessed by vpw himself when she refused to have sex with him.
She was villified to her family when they inquired why their vivacious energetic daughter was reduced to near catatonic state, unable to discuss what had happened.
Do you guys remember the poster *Better Noow* who refused a threesom with lcm and was physically escorted off the grounds booted from the corpes and by the time she returned to her home state, everyone she knew had been told she was posessed and to stay away?
What about Dot whom TRIED to comfront the sex and was declared posessed to the whole state.
She took it all the way to the top, vp himself...and SHE the one who was trying to fix things was branded the trouble maker.
It is no different now. You guys are villifying the people who were abused, the people who are finally speaking up about it instead of being properly disgusted by the perverted sexual predators that took advantage of naieve young people....people who just wanted to be a blessing and of service of God.
As far as the women who were willing. Yes, I know that some were. I want to tell you a story, one that I haven`t shared with anybody.
Most of us read the account that carl wrote about how one of the wows that witnessed to him, the next year moved in with him and his brother. That he had sex with her in the afternoons and his brother had sex with her at night. Wow, great everyone was having fun, they were all consenting adults...right?
Well...there was an untold side to that story. That girl was my wow sister.
She shared with me one night early on in our wow year, that as a very small child... this precious little girl had been raped by an extended family member...she talked about being placed on a bath room counter and not understanding what was going on.
She shared a lot with me as we lay together in the dark, how she was raped all through her child hood.... I was completely ill equiped to help her. I could only lay there and listen in horror.
The thing is...at 18 she was young and very beautifull......she had no understanding of how to be loved, she wanted to please, she was kind and compassionate, if sex was what a person wanted...shrug what was the big deal? She had a very confused view of what a healthy relationship was all about.
What does this have to do with vpw? That is how I view some of the people vpw took advantage of...even the ones that were flattered and willing....people in need of love, in need of healing, desiring to be pleasing so that people will find them of worth.
We know that in ex`s account, he took advantage of the fact that she had been sexually abused as a child..that he tried all kinds of manipulation, that it was Godly, that he could heal her, that all things were lawfull...etc...and when that didn`t work, he resorted to drugging.
I think that he knew that these women were vulnerable in a way that he could exploit.
My point is, the kids that were sexually abused, who were neglected and ignored, the lost children that had to raise themselves...(I am talking guys and girls) were vulnerable and needed help, the love of God extended to them...they came to the ministry hoping that the hurt could be healed...hoping that the promises made when presented with the green card of all answeres pertaining to life and Godliness would fill the hole inside :(
ONLY to be exploited yet again by another cunning predator...except THIS time their last best bet...God almighty was the cover that was used to win their trust and obedience.
This man above ALL men should have been able to set his sexual proclivities aside and minister healing to these people. Not use them one more time, and throw them away like so much garbage, used and empty.
As far as my sweet wonderfull wow sister?? I heard that after a couple of years that she was institutionalized. I don`t know if she ever was able to leave.
You guys are villifying the people who were abused, the people who are finally speaking up about it instead of being properly disgusted by the perverted sexual predators that took advantage of naieve young people....people who just wanted to be a blessing and of service of God.
Rascal, you're simply wrong in your accusation of us. If you're including me in this generalization I would simply have to say that I'm an agnostic concerning your claims. Having never seen direct evidence of what is claimed I simply don't know if they are true. That's NOT the same thing as calling you a liar. If you don't understand the difference I suggest you speak to an agnostic (concerning belief in God/s). They would tell you that although they don't consider people who claim there is a God liars, they just don't know if there is just because you say so. Your words are not enuf to convince us (agnostics) that there is a god/s.
Can you guys set aside your need to defend vpw long enough to just for a miniute try to understand what it was like to be scared and lonely, wanting to be loved, wanting to be healed, for the pain, the shame the self loathing to go away?
To want it so bad that you would be willing to shut down those inner warning bells.
Can you imagine daring to hope that the great man of God would have the answeres promised...that if one would just put aside their fears, put their lack of understanding on the burner that this man could heal them?
Can you for one miniute imagine the shame of being used, and once used handed down to howard or Don while the mog went after a new new conquest?
Can you understand the hurt and bitterness when once discovering that nt only were you not healed, you were simply used by a lascivious old pervert? That your usefullness exhausted, nobody cared any more?
Try for a miniute guys to understand the pain and shame and disgust....
Try for a miniute some compassion for the youth that was exploited to sate the lusts of these mens bellies.
. . . should have stopped right here. Even though I'm sure you didn't mean to -- everything else you wrote comes across as a feeble attempt to rationalize what you said. When I first read your "apology" I had to make a choice -- Seeing as how Dooj did apologize should I ignore her attempts at rationalization? I decided (obviously) that although it's admirable of you to do what I doubted you would I'm disappointed that you found it necessary to say anything other than: "I'm sorry Oldies. It was wrong of me to infer that you were a pedophile. Please forgive me."
Larry,
In my post I explained my anger and I apologized for the only part where I felt I crossed the line. The rest of that post was directed to johniam.
Oldies only apologized 'for the blanket statement "any guy who disputes this is either lying or gay"' and then went on to post the rest of his argument in other posts.
Your disappointment is not my problem. I'm not really looking for your approval. Some think I didn't need to apologize at all. I did what I believed was the right thing to do. You can call it rationalization - but that doesn't make it so.
I'll put that post here so that others can judge for themselves.
Larry, I'm more than happy to apologize.
Here's what I responded to:
I don't know why he had to use drugs though; he had all the women without them. That was wrong for sure. But maybe he did it just to loosen them up? You know the uptight ones. I never tried it, but I heard that some of these date rape drugs enhance the sexual desire. Sort of like a sexual aid.
BTW most if not all men fantisize about young women. That is a fact of nature and any guy who disputes this is either lying or gay.
Given the age of most of the 'young women' that vp took advantage of, I thought first and foremost of an older teen/young woman - 17-21. I was thinking of a High School and early college. I should have specified that in my post. I wasn't accusing Oldies of being a pedophile, but as the mother of two girls, one of them a teen, I naturally had a knee-jerk reaction.
Oldies, I apologize. I should have been more specific and clear headed in my wording. I was and still am deeply offended by this post. That is no excuse for how I worded my own post to you.
johniam, You said this:
Dooj you do owe Oldies an apology; he said young WOMEN (mature adult female), not young girls.
There is quite a difference between a mature adult female and a young woman. My teen is a young lady (she is a lady and not just a female or woman.) I already explained my thinking at the time of the post. I never mean to imply "young girls."
You guys all ought to take a cold shower together and clean out the toxicity in your heads.
Now just what are you implying here? I apologized. Can you?
I did post right after this. I offer no apologies for that next post. I said clearly that I was deeply offended by Oldies's post and I too continued making my point.
Can you guys set aside your need to defend vpw long enough to just for a miniute try to understand what it was like to be scared and lonely, wanting to be loved, wanting to be healed, for the pain, the shame the self loathing to go away?
To want it so bad that you would be willing to shut down those inner warning bells.
Can you imagine daring to hope that the great man of God would have the answeres promised...that if one would just put aside their fears, put their lack of understanding on the burner that this man could heal them?
Can you for one miniute imagine the shame of being used, and once used handed down to howard or Don while the mog went after a new new conquest?
Can you understand the hurt and bitterness when once discovering that nt only were you not healed, you were simply used by a lascivious old pervert? That your usefullness exhausted, nobody cared any more?
Try for a miniute guys to understand the pain and shame and disgust....
Try for a miniute some compassion for the youth that was exploited to sate the lusts of these mens bellies.
Oh I can imagine quite easily the pain associated with being used and abused. I've suffered it. Can you just for once try to understand that no one (at least not myself) is calling you a liar. I'm simply an agnostic. Ask an agnostic in relationship to the belief in the existence of god/s what that means and then maybe you'll understand my position.
Larry, the only thing I see from you is your bizarr need to go from thread to thread defecating on any and all here. I don`t understand you, I don`t see anything of benefit to your posts....as far as I can see...just a troubler maker pure and simple.
In short, you offend me. You don`t contribute, you don`t help anybody, you don`t do much of anything but relentlessly search for ways to tear people, and derail threads .. and quite frankly??? I honest to GOD don`t give a tinkers damn whether you ever believe me or not.
I am not, nor have I ever been here to persuade you.
I told you a long time ago, when you DID infer that I was a liar...or spreading misinformation, or unable to prove my facts...that you were now in possession of the information, that it was now up to you what you did with it.
I have no need to change your mind, nor to discourse with you on any issue, because I have no respect for you period.
Oh I can imagine quite easily the pain associated with being used and abused. I've suffered it.
Good. (Not the suffering it part.) That's the first step in understanding what many people, mostly women,
went through both PERSONALLY from vpw and generally under vpw's regime as he taught others to do
what he did and facilitate what he did.
Can you just for once try to understand that no one (at least not myself) is calling you a liar.
Whether or not YOU are, there certainly are people who DO call her a liar.
We've gotten people calling the women who stepped forth ALL liars.
We've had people who added to their testimony called liars.
We've had people who insisted there was never any sexual wrongdoing at the bod/bot level.
We've had people who insisted lcm never did anything.
We've had people who insisted vpw never did anything.
Then we've had people suggest vpw had sex with women FOR THEIR BENEFIT-
either to toughen them up spiritually, or to give them sexual healing.
Then we've had people who seem determined to paint the rapist (vpw) as the innocent victim
(he's in his RV on his bed innocently minding his own business when women came in,
gave themselves alcohol, and threw themselves at him.)
Finally, after having made a major production of things- by challenging every eyewitness,
victim account, everything people personally saw or did-
and having them all speak up in response-
they claimed that all this time spent on vpw's evil deeds shows the ones exposing them
have an unhealthy obsession with vpw.
Whether or not you're any of those parties, that's gone on for maybe a DECADE between
WayDale and the GSC.
I'm simply an agnostic. Ask an agnostic in relationship to the belief in the existence of god/s what that means and then maybe you'll understand my position.
There's a LOT of information, both women who've come forth as direct victims offering testimony.
There's people who were part of vpw's criminal gang who've admitted, ashamed, they were in on it.
There's official court records that lcm admitted to wrongdoing.
Then there's all the information around what's directly known from participants-willing and nonwilling-
and posted here and elsewhere.
There's a complete, VERY consistent picture.
Feel free to look up some of it. Even 10% should be enough to remove "a reasonable doubt."
I myself began from the position that vpw was innocent of wrongdoing. However, the wealth of the
oooh, oooh.. you ladies will like this. New fashions for 2008.
But Mr. Ham - you forget that in oldies eyes... it would be the lady's fault anyway... because like... umm... her hands are showing! Yeah! What a ho! She was totally asking for it. What with her hands showing and whatnot.
But you might have something there about wearing the beekeeper outfit - at least he might not be able to tell how good looking the ladies are... >_> Maybe...
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doojable
He was old enough to be their grandfather!
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Ham
better a dead dog than a living lion.. or is that curse like a lion at a dead dog..
hmm. Trying to find something "biblical" here..
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Ham
Now I understand.. it's kinda like.. the people who hand over their wallets and purses to the guy holding a gun.. they're FACILITATING his "weakness" for robbery..
poor weak guy.. all he wants is a little money.. er, a lot of money.. without working for it.
Poor fella..
victim of "consent"..
Maybe that's the answer.. just take all of those "evil" facilitators off the streets..
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Ham
hmm.. get rid of the "facilitators".. reminds me of some book.. what was it.. "killing the victim.."
well.. why not.
Local ordinances could be enacted, forbidding the citizens from carrying money or any kind of valuable possessions..
maybe just outlaw money altogether..
no more money, no more muggings.. and no more poor weak mogs, tempted to peer into your finances, looking for a fifteen to twenty percent cut..
oooh, oooh.. you ladies will like this. New fashions for 2008.
Or just dress up like a man. The floating eye of der mog won't be tempted for a moment, unless he is kinda "funny"..
honestly, I think a shock collar on der mogster might be a little more cost effective though..
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oldiesman
That may be someones rationale, but personally, I always thought that was a weak argument for the females to use, or to proclaim on behalf of the females.
It simply shifts all blame to someone else, in this case VPW. Is that fair?
"Because Dr. Wierwille says its ok and didn't teach me otherwise, then it is ok" Oh really?
Let's be frank ... adults , know that adultery is wrong.
We all learn this from our parents, from our Judeo-Christian society, from marriage, from our traditions, from our family and friends, from our own study of the bible;
Consider a possible scenario on Judgment Day;
Jesus: "why dear woman did you commit adultery with Dr. Wierwille"
Woman: "because I was taught contrary to God's Word that this would bless the man of God"
Jesus: "you mean you didn't know that adultery was wrong"?
"you didn't know Victor was a married man?"
Woman: "but Victor told me that it was ok and didn't teach me otherwise"
Jesus: "well then that must make it all ok"
***************************
Simply put, although VPW is guilty for his sins regardless (as we all are), I believe in individual moral accountability and responsibility for every adults' choices.
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doojable
Not all blame. Although you have also said,
In the above statement you imply (IMHO) that vp already knew his weakness here. I'm suggesting that rather than seek to control himself he sought to explore his lusts. He looked for an end run around God's Word.
So here we have a man in his sixties. He goes to Haight-Ashbury and tries to find some Christians into orgies (I'm really over-simplifying here - so someone please correct me if I'm way off base.)
It's that time in the late '70's when there was a "sexual revolution." The atmosphere is ripe for an older "Father in the Word" figure to be able to convince young people already prone to bucking the system, that they could have sex with anyone as long as they could handle it and were spiritual enough. He taught that one part of the body was the same as any other part of the body.
Adults do know this. Young adults are more prone to bend rules. That's why vp was so happy to have found this group. I'm not suggesting that these young women are not to be held accountable for their actions. I'm certain that they have had to face more than their share of guilt, shame, self-doubt, and condemnation in their lives. Hopefully they have been able to seek forgiveness and peace.Okay. Let's try the reverse then.
Jesus: Victor - did you have have sex with women who weren't your wife?
vp - Yes.
Jesus - Did you know that adultery is wrong.
vp - Yes.
Jesus - Did you teach them it was alright to do this?
vp - Yes. But I also knew that all women belong to the King.
Jesus - I'm the King. I paid for those dear ones with my blood. They never belonged to you.
vp - hunh! I never really thought of it that way...
Jesus - Did you also drug young women and rape them while they were unconscious from those drugs?
vp- Yes.
Jesus - But you knew this wasn't what is written. You taught a lie and you acted on a lie. You knew this was wrong and you acted as a spokesman to teach something other than the truth. Why did you do this?
vp - They made it easy for me. They wanted to bless me. I told them what would bless me.
Jesus -Those women you raped....they weren't blessed. *rolls eyes* but as long as you were blessed that must make it all okay....
******************************************************************
Vp knew much more and acted with stealth and intent. In fact let's quote what they used to teach in twi - "the more you know, the more you are responsible for."
I think the Bible says something to the effect that to him who much is given, much will be required.
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waysider
Hiya, Guys!
(Oldies, John, WTH, etc.)
Just wanted to pass along a little friendly advise.
Next time you are out on the town, you may want to keep a close watch on your drink.
Correction, make that a VERY close watch.
Ya see, this "drug thing" is apparently gaining momentum and being a guy does not make you immune.
Do you think being young, strong and athletic puts you at an advantage?
(Uhmmm!-- You are all young, strong and athletic, right?)
I Trow not!
"He was a mean, mean man."
---------Mrs. W.---------------------
I think she may have known his true nature just a bit more intimately than you fellas.
Food for thought:
http://www.findbrianshaffer.com/
http://www.amw.com/missing_persons/case.cfm?id=33742
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Goey
It's deeper than that and you know it.
Who was VPW to these women? He was the Apsotle, the Man of God for the whole world. He knew the Word like no one since the 1st century. God taught him directly since he threw out all his other books except his Bible.
While it is true that many of us believed before going into TWI that adultery was wrong, we also believed that Jesus was God and and the 10 commandment still applied to Christians. VPW taught a lot of "strange" doctrines that we believed contrary to what we hand been previously taught, so taking grace, freedom in Christ, and no condemnation to adultry is ok, is not a stretch for someone who ultimately trusted the Man of God for Our Day an Time to teach the rightly-divided word. If they could change on the Trinity & 1O commandments then they could change on adultery, especially when taught by the Man of God for the entire freaking world.
No, the "blame" belongs squarely with the one that deceived those that trusted him to teach the truth.
Heres mine:
Jesus: Why Oldies did you defend and take up for a wolf in sheeps clothing?
Oldies: Uh, because I got delivered because of what he taught.
Jesus: Would that be where he taught that adultery was ok?
Oldies: I never heard that teaching, I was not there.
Jesus: Why Oldies, did you not comfort those that were taken advantage of instead cast blame on them?
Oldies: Because those women asked for it. They facilitated it! They knew better!
Jesus: Did not Victor know better ? Was he not their trusted teacher?
Oldiies: Yeah uh maybe. But I got delivered by Doctors teachings.
Jesus: Would that be the adultery teaching or the one on abortion? How did these deliver you?
Oldies: Uh, er ..... You're shifting the blame!
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rascal
Lest we forget the other side of the coin that catcups sister presented..
At 17 yrs old she was thrown off of the wow field and declared posessed by vpw himself when she refused to have sex with him.
She was villified to her family when they inquired why their vivacious energetic daughter was reduced to near catatonic state, unable to discuss what had happened.
Do you guys remember the poster *Better Noow* who refused a threesom with lcm and was physically escorted off the grounds booted from the corpes and by the time she returned to her home state, everyone she knew had been told she was posessed and to stay away?
What about Dot whom TRIED to comfront the sex and was declared posessed to the whole state.
She took it all the way to the top, vp himself...and SHE the one who was trying to fix things was branded the trouble maker.
It is no different now. You guys are villifying the people who were abused, the people who are finally speaking up about it instead of being properly disgusted by the perverted sexual predators that took advantage of naieve young people....people who just wanted to be a blessing and of service of God.
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rascal
As far as the women who were willing. Yes, I know that some were. I want to tell you a story, one that I haven`t shared with anybody.
Most of us read the account that carl wrote about how one of the wows that witnessed to him, the next year moved in with him and his brother. That he had sex with her in the afternoons and his brother had sex with her at night. Wow, great everyone was having fun, they were all consenting adults...right?
Well...there was an untold side to that story. That girl was my wow sister.
She shared with me one night early on in our wow year, that as a very small child... this precious little girl had been raped by an extended family member...she talked about being placed on a bath room counter and not understanding what was going on.
She shared a lot with me as we lay together in the dark, how she was raped all through her child hood.... I was completely ill equiped to help her. I could only lay there and listen in horror.
The thing is...at 18 she was young and very beautifull......she had no understanding of how to be loved, she wanted to please, she was kind and compassionate, if sex was what a person wanted...shrug what was the big deal? She had a very confused view of what a healthy relationship was all about.
What does this have to do with vpw? That is how I view some of the people vpw took advantage of...even the ones that were flattered and willing....people in need of love, in need of healing, desiring to be pleasing so that people will find them of worth.
We know that in ex`s account, he took advantage of the fact that she had been sexually abused as a child..that he tried all kinds of manipulation, that it was Godly, that he could heal her, that all things were lawfull...etc...and when that didn`t work, he resorted to drugging.
I think that he knew that these women were vulnerable in a way that he could exploit.
My point is, the kids that were sexually abused, who were neglected and ignored, the lost children that had to raise themselves...(I am talking guys and girls) were vulnerable and needed help, the love of God extended to them...they came to the ministry hoping that the hurt could be healed...hoping that the promises made when presented with the green card of all answeres pertaining to life and Godliness would fill the hole inside :(
ONLY to be exploited yet again by another cunning predator...except THIS time their last best bet...God almighty was the cover that was used to win their trust and obedience.
This man above ALL men should have been able to set his sexual proclivities aside and minister healing to these people. Not use them one more time, and throw them away like so much garbage, used and empty.
As far as my sweet wonderfull wow sister?? I heard that after a couple of years that she was institutionalized. I don`t know if she ever was able to leave.
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Larry N Moore
Rascal, you're simply wrong in your accusation of us. If you're including me in this generalization I would simply have to say that I'm an agnostic concerning your claims. Having never seen direct evidence of what is claimed I simply don't know if they are true. That's NOT the same thing as calling you a liar. If you don't understand the difference I suggest you speak to an agnostic (concerning belief in God/s). They would tell you that although they don't consider people who claim there is a God liars, they just don't know if there is just because you say so. Your words are not enuf to convince us (agnostics) that there is a god/s.
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rascal
Can you guys set aside your need to defend vpw long enough to just for a miniute try to understand what it was like to be scared and lonely, wanting to be loved, wanting to be healed, for the pain, the shame the self loathing to go away?
To want it so bad that you would be willing to shut down those inner warning bells.
Can you imagine daring to hope that the great man of God would have the answeres promised...that if one would just put aside their fears, put their lack of understanding on the burner that this man could heal them?
Can you for one miniute imagine the shame of being used, and once used handed down to howard or Don while the mog went after a new new conquest?
Can you understand the hurt and bitterness when once discovering that nt only were you not healed, you were simply used by a lascivious old pervert? That your usefullness exhausted, nobody cared any more?
Try for a miniute guys to understand the pain and shame and disgust....
Try for a miniute some compassion for the youth that was exploited to sate the lusts of these mens bellies.
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doojable
Larry,
In my post I explained my anger and I apologized for the only part where I felt I crossed the line. The rest of that post was directed to johniam.
Oldies only apologized 'for the blanket statement "any guy who disputes this is either lying or gay"' and then went on to post the rest of his argument in other posts.
Your disappointment is not my problem. I'm not really looking for your approval. Some think I didn't need to apologize at all. I did what I believed was the right thing to do. You can call it rationalization - but that doesn't make it so.
I'll put that post here so that others can judge for themselves.
I did post right after this. I offer no apologies for that next post. I said clearly that I was deeply offended by Oldies's post and I too continued making my point.
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excathedra
thank you rascal for the post about your wow sister. it does give an example of how damaged people can be easy prey
--
the stuff about loosening girls up..... what was that .... i only scanned.....
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rascal
Your welcome ex, I didn`t think anybody bothered to read it or care.
Oldies said that maybe wierwille gave the girls drugs to loosen em up cause they were too up tight dontcha know?
That is why people are so creeped out.
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Larry N Moore
Fair enuf. I really didn't think you were.
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Larry N Moore
Oh I can imagine quite easily the pain associated with being used and abused. I've suffered it. Can you just for once try to understand that no one (at least not myself) is calling you a liar. I'm simply an agnostic. Ask an agnostic in relationship to the belief in the existence of god/s what that means and then maybe you'll understand my position.
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rascal
Larry, the only thing I see from you is your bizarr need to go from thread to thread defecating on any and all here. I don`t understand you, I don`t see anything of benefit to your posts....as far as I can see...just a troubler maker pure and simple.
In short, you offend me. You don`t contribute, you don`t help anybody, you don`t do much of anything but relentlessly search for ways to tear people, and derail threads .. and quite frankly??? I honest to GOD don`t give a tinkers damn whether you ever believe me or not.
I am not, nor have I ever been here to persuade you.
I told you a long time ago, when you DID infer that I was a liar...or spreading misinformation, or unable to prove my facts...that you were now in possession of the information, that it was now up to you what you did with it.
I have no need to change your mind, nor to discourse with you on any issue, because I have no respect for you period.
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WordWolf
Good. (Not the suffering it part.) That's the first step in understanding what many people, mostly women,
went through both PERSONALLY from vpw and generally under vpw's regime as he taught others to do
what he did and facilitate what he did.
Whether or not YOU are, there certainly are people who DO call her a liar.We've gotten people calling the women who stepped forth ALL liars.
We've had people who added to their testimony called liars.
We've had people who insisted there was never any sexual wrongdoing at the bod/bot level.
We've had people who insisted lcm never did anything.
We've had people who insisted vpw never did anything.
Then we've had people suggest vpw had sex with women FOR THEIR BENEFIT-
either to toughen them up spiritually, or to give them sexual healing.
Then we've had people who seem determined to paint the rapist (vpw) as the innocent victim
(he's in his RV on his bed innocently minding his own business when women came in,
gave themselves alcohol, and threw themselves at him.)
Finally, after having made a major production of things- by challenging every eyewitness,
victim account, everything people personally saw or did-
and having them all speak up in response-
they claimed that all this time spent on vpw's evil deeds shows the ones exposing them
have an unhealthy obsession with vpw.
Whether or not you're any of those parties, that's gone on for maybe a DECADE between
WayDale and the GSC.
There's a LOT of information, both women who've come forth as direct victims offering testimony.
There's people who were part of vpw's criminal gang who've admitted, ashamed, they were in on it.
There's official court records that lcm admitted to wrongdoing.
Then there's all the information around what's directly known from participants-willing and nonwilling-
and posted here and elsewhere.
There's a complete, VERY consistent picture.
Feel free to look up some of it. Even 10% should be enough to remove "a reasonable doubt."
I myself began from the position that vpw was innocent of wrongdoing. However, the wealth of the
evidence was sufficient for me to change my mind.
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Ham
Makes sense. No wonder stuff was so screwed up.. we must have had a whole ministry run and directed by a group of three year olds..
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Nero
But Mr. Ham - you forget that in oldies eyes... it would be the lady's fault anyway... because like... umm... her hands are showing! Yeah! What a ho! She was totally asking for it. What with her hands showing and whatnot.
But you might have something there about wearing the beekeeper outfit - at least he might not be able to tell how good looking the ladies are... >_> Maybe...
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Tom Strange
It kind of looks like that "lady" has a moustache and beard!
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hmh
WAIT! WAIT! I can see too much ankle showing there. That's obscene!
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waysider
Hmmmm.
Is it obscene because it is showing or because you can see it?
Just funnin' with ya.
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