Another way to state the "bottom line" in my previous post could be:
IMO, one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Our belief or non-belief is based upon whether or not we experience what we believe to be God working in our lives.
Another way to state the "bottom line" in my previous post could be:
IMO, one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Our belief or non-belief is based upon whether or not we experience what we believe to be God working in our lives.
Suda
True. I assume by proof you don't mean convincing one person but showing everybody. And yes, our "belief systems" are often based on our experiences, which are as different as each of us are.
But I know we don't live in different universes. Like, where Christ rose from the dead in your universe and didnt rise (or didnt exist) in mine.
You are certainly correct in describing them as different belief systems, and not different universes.
To put it simply, after being raised in twi and taught there wasn't "faith" as most of the world knows it, I realised that is all we have. This may be true of most things or even all things but for me I think there is a base amount in which we need to be certain of in order to remain sane. The rest is uncertainty. We either live with and deal with that, deal with it while still searching for assuredness, or we choose something to be certain of and act as if it is so, but that certainty does not make it so.
When it came to the bible it seemed apparent to me that I was taking this guy's word that this other gy's word that these guy's words in a book were not only accurate, but truth and God's Word. It seemed that in order to have faith in God I needed first to have faith in those other guys. Dang if that isn't what Rom. 10:14 says in a way.
For me it became dishonest to myself and to others to continue to be so certain of things I didn't really know, at least with things as important as God and the meaning of life and all that. It all became so unreal to me, getting together to support and bolster our agreed upon answers to life and beyond. It was faith upon faith upon faith. So much so that it all HAD to be right and real otherwise the whole house of cards would come falling down and we would be left with was lawlessness, fear, death, and anarchy.
On the other side of the coin though, I am only an atheist in that I don't believe, not in that I am certain there is no God. That is the same thing with a different t-shirt. Doubt can easily be changed, certitude is a little harder to chip away at. That can make it powerful or very dangerous.
I hear 1 Cor. 14:33 from many saying God is not the author of confusion. That sounds great, but uncertainty does not equal confusion. In fact, coming to terms with the fact that you know that you know that you don't know is quite liberating and clarifying. At least it was for me.
No offense to anyone. Just my thoughts, my journey, YMMV.
Most posters here were at one time or another affiliated with twi, a ministry that was considered by those I knew personally to be a Christian organization. Most posters here have, also, left behind their affiliation with twi for a variety of reasons. After exiting, we have explored various spiritual and/or non-spiritual paths. This is as it should be, imo.
Suda, I have questioned this too. Thanks for bringing it up..In mho, I feel staying a christian is a part of my dna....some things I learned about the new birth, I learned for "Life".
The primary reason I came to GSC was to gain insight into how someone could go from being a Christian to being an atheist. The café has helped me understand this better.
I came to GSC by accident so to speak, I was looking for TWI's bookstore and stumbled into this site..
One bottom line may be our experiences and how we interpreted them.
My experience's were very damaging to me and my family during my last years in twi. Slowly I started to see a beautiful tapestry of life getting unraveld, and I needed to rebuild the tapestry, thread by thread...some of by logical deduction, some thru doctrine and thus proving itself..It was tasking and very painful to look at the destruction of the way here at the Spot..
For those who experienced and/or saw what they considered to be "signs, miracles, and wonders" in their lives personally and/or in the lives of others, if they attributed these things to God, they may continue to believe in God.
I saw signs, miracles and healings..my daughter was diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis at the age of 9, the doc's told me she would be blind....8 months later her testing revealed thier was no signs of it. It's a no brainer to me..
My belief system hasn't changed in order of who my Lord and Savior is, or who God is...the change in my system has not been a forced "Auxano of growth"..but rather, a simpler lifestyle of weeding out condemnation perpetrated by wrong teaching of twi.THis was not fun....so I just keep life simpler..its to short!!
For those who experienced and/or saw what they considered to be "signs, miracles, and wonders" in their lives personally and/or in the lives of others, if they attributed these things to something other than God, they may have adopted another belief system. It may be another religion or it may be atheism or agnosticism.
For those who never experienced and/or saw what they considered to be "signs, miracles, and wonders" in their lives personally and/or in the lives of others, they may no longer believe in God be an atheist, or they may be unsure as to whether or not there is a God or gods, and align themselves more closely with agnostics. Or they may have adopted some other belief system.
My question is not "who is right and who is wrong" for belief systems are personal for each individual, and everyone must adopt what they feel is the right choice for them, personally. One shoe does not fit all, nor should it.
I'm just sorting out what the "bottom lines" may be in adopting a particular belief system.
Any thoughts?
Suda (who considers herself a Christian and believes in God and Jesus Christ)
Suda, I suspect that there are as many "bottom line"s as there are people. :)
Some of us saw downright contradictions to what TWI taught and awful failures at trying to see "signs, miracles and wonders".
Once the farce of TWI and the teachings of TWI has been discovered, some people hold on tightly to that baby for dear life. The baby can't be a farce, too, or the whole of their beliefs collapses in on itself.
Others consider that the baby was a farce just like TWI and start from there.
Yet others, consider the baby but the more they look into getting answers to the original questions they had and the additional questions that TWI involvement raises - they come to the conclusion that there is no baby.
Still others chuck the whole d@mn thing and don't care if there is a baby or not - they're just done with the whole blasted thing.
Every person is different in their belief, even those who sit next to you (rhetorical) at Sunday School. The thing that aggravates most people is when some know-it-all tries to "convert" or persuade them that their belief is wrong and that they should believe the same things said know-it-all does.
I haven't written God off per se, but I do not think, if there is a God, that he is much of anything like what the typical western religion teaches him to be. My beliefs change pretty regularly these days depending on what I'm reading and looking into. I'm more comfortable with not knowing and find that, like Lindy said so well, quite liberating and peaceful.
Our brother from the butt Sock drawer posted this down in the Doctrinal Dungeon and it seems to fit here, too:
cman's comment made me think of the one body example, which can be applied to across the board I think.
Some people may have insights and understanding that come to them in any form - learning, insight, actual events. Others, none.
Insisting that one person work to duplicate what another's learned and experienced will prove futile in this area. Geroge, saying to you, "try again, try harder, try it like this", is fine, to a degree if your interests are the ones being served. And everyone means well, right? Even the most boring repetitive rehetoric. :) But it may very well be a waste of time because putting you on my timetable and to my expectations is useless. So pestering other people is stupid.
My thought is - there's nothing "wrong" with how an atheist believes or feels. They may be wrong by what I believe to be true, limited in understanding but the truth is I am too in my own ways. Everyone is. It's completely normal that some won't come to the same place as I am.
When a Christian insists that another believe and do as they do and how they do - that's wrong. Everyone's place is in development and it's their own. Likewise humanity as a whole, within it's own collection, "body". It's everyone's job to bring what they have and contribute it, honestly and truthfully.
Most people build their belief systems around their personal experiences and use words to give them credence.
This is true for all beliefs, not just ones that involve spiritual matters.
In TWI, our "experiences" were those times we spent at twig, the branch pot-lucks, the Sunday night services, the grueling boredom of Corps meetings or Fellowlaborer meetings or classes like Keys To Research, etc.
The "words", on the other hand, were the actual texts of the classes, the PFAL book, the transcripts and tapes of the Sunday night service, etc.
There has to be a healthy balance that is based on reality for it to make any sense.
Sometimes we see people who have an inordinate fixation on good "experiences" and they feel they must use "words" to find self- justification.
Sometimes we see people who have an inordinate fixation on the "words" who feel they must discount their experiences to try to make sense of it all.
The healthiest approach is to look at all the data and be flexible enough to change---and then change again as new information presents itself.
I can testify as to a journey from atheism to Christianity.
My upbringing was ultra liberal. By the time I was in high school I was open about my atheism. I was convinced that the only reason anybody believed in God was because they were convinced they would go to hell if they didn't. I thought they were brainwashed; I made fun of it. Sure, there were people who believed in God whom I respected; my grandma, and people I saw regularly who didn't shun me because of my professed atheism. But mostly I saw people who believed in God as not allowing themselves to enjoy life; that was the stereotype I held.
I went to a liberal church, though. Interesting that Ann Coulter's recent book calls liberalism a church, because my mom always told me to say I went to a LIBERAL church if other kids on the street asked me about that. The church is called Fountain Street Church and the likes of Robert Frost, Stokley Carmicheal, and recently Michael Moore have been guest speakers there. But after 9th grade I stopped going to that church because I found it boring. But things happened along the way.
In 4th grade I was in church and there was this room where they showed cartoons before Sunday school and on this day they showed an hour long movie about Jesus. In that church Jesus was not viewed as evil; just as one religious leader among all the rest. So I watched the movie and it gave me a good feeling. So I walk to my Sunday school class and when asked where I was I said, "I saw a movie about JESUS!!!!!" Loud laughter followed. They weren't mean about it, just skeptical, but the film definitely made an impression on me.
In 10th grade some guys, both of whom are still atheists, talked me into going to a Christian fellowship just to check it out nothing better to do. It was about the size of a twig, but midweek at a Presbyterian church. During the meeting I felt a very powerful presence in the room, especially when they all prayed. It felt good. I even prayed myself. This was before I ever started using drugs. I later felt the same powerful presence during every session 12 I was ever at. But I basically blew it off, although I wasn't as quick to claim to be an atheist anymore.
In 1973 I was hitching from STL to San Francisco and I got picked up in St. Charles, just 30 miles west of STL and got a ride all the way to Seattle. At first there were 4 people in the car, 3 guys, 1 girl. They witnessed to me aggressively. I accused them of cramming their religion down my throat. They stopped. In Kansas City, 2 of the guys got dropped off, including the most aggressive one. By the time we got to Denver the remaining guy apologized for being too pushy and simply told me how God helped him out of a serious legal situation and that if I ever got really bummed out with life to ask for His help.
In 1975 I spent the summer as an assistant park ranger at Wilson State Park in Harrison, MI. I was away from my friends most of the time. Two coworkers each invited me to their church. One was weird. They were into loud sobbing during the sermon and several people came up to the altar and said praise Jesus a lot. It was confusing. Only went once. The other one was much different. Same powerful presence. The minister talked to me personally and during the sermon he spoke of John the Baptist, how he was strong and not blown around by every wind of peoples' opinions.
The past few years at that time saw failed attempts to keep jobs, failed romantic relationships, failure to stay in school, and deteriorating relationships with family members. I wished I was strong. But this, too, I blew off.
Then in fall of '76 a musician friend whom I respected witnessed to me. He had tried to witness to me previously, but my prepared one liners always backed people off, including him. Not this time. He was bold and confrontational. No surprise he'd just taken PFAL. So later that night I told God I'd give it a try for one year but that I needed to see undeniable results. Thirty one years later I feel that was the smartest decision I ever made. Christianity rerouted a very troubled life. At one time I would have creditted TWI for most of it, but if they hadn't been there something else would have.
I think going from Christianity to atheism would be a demotion, but that's me. Use this post as an anti-model if it fits.
It seems that most people need a belief system to make sense of things.
When someone decides to be an atheist the belief system is that a supernatural being is not necessary to make sense of the world anymore. As human beings we want to see causes to everything, we want to see patterns to events. An atheist is less likely than some to need see impose causes and patterns where there isn't necessarily any.
Even when we experience something that is seemingly unexplainable, a "sign, miracle or wonder", it is we that impose the label upon it, it is we who decide that it "must be God", or if our belief system is different that it is Reiki, or magick, or aliens. We "feel a presence" and interpret it as God...or the Goddess...or our dead ancestors...or whatever else our belief system requires. Even if we experienced a Cecil B. DeMille technicolor miracle we would only attribute it to the biblical God if we were predisposed to that belief system.
For those who have maintained Christianity through TWI and post-TWI days, obviously the Christian framework is the most comfortable and consistant and fits with their experiences. For those who haven't stuck with Christianity, the biblical model no longer fits for them, is no longer consistant with their experiences.
When I was in TWI the framework that I hung my experiences on was the bible as expounded and explained by Wierwille and later Martindale in PFAL, WayAP and the other classes. During the last few years that I was involved in TWI, there were numerous errors that I found in Martindale's teachings. Errors found using PFAL's "keys". Later I began to find similar errors in Wierwille's teachings. Stumbling across CES's website showed me how using biblical research "keys" was no guarantee to coming up with the same answers. Still later I came to the conclusion that the bible itself wasn't any more reliable, and that there was no evident reason to accept that it was god-breathed.
Although I have not "journeyed" to atheism, my belief system is not Christianity. I can see why some would find it appealing, but find no objective reasons to adhere to it myself.
I came to Wayworld as an agnostic. I had spent some 20 years or so of my youth in either a Lutheran Church or the Methodist Reformed (now ask me if I could tell the difference) and was pretty much tired of empty platitudes and toothy grins on Sunday morning from people that hated my guts the rest of the week. I'd never seen much of anything in religion except the musty-smelling basements and some timid housewife trying to convince the kids in her group that "Religion is really fun!"
So when I heard Wierwille talking about all the terrific signs and wonders and healings and all the other empty promises, somehow I paid attention (could it have anything to do with the fact that I was madly "in love" with the girl who witnessed to me?). Here was finally somebody saying that The Bible had REAL promises that would come to pass in your daily life - IF - you knew the secret code!
So, all that was well and good. Life goes on. You speak in tongues, get together very regularly to reconvince yourselves that you're really onto something special, and you slowly get older. FINALLY, one day you unlease all those pent-up doubts and start looking at the whole concept a little more dispassionately. AND, the tenets of your faith don't tolerate real, in-depth scrutiny very well - at least mine didn't. And the light dawns on you that, lo and behold, the whole religion game is hardly anymore credible than a kid's book of fairy tales. There's lots of well-worn arguments to try to hold the game together, but those are hardly anymore believeable than the religion itself. So, you drop the facade and try to figure out life on your own.
Mostly I realized that an inordinate amount of the true believer's time was spent doing spin-control for The Almighty. Making up excuses for why somebody didn't get healed, why the guy in your twig DIDN'T get the promotion, why evil unbeliever that's been taunting believer-person seems to continue prospering, why you don't have peace or joy in your life, why you don't seem to have any fellowship with "The Father", why everybody outside of your fellowship seems to be doing quite well, while you and yours are constantly struggling.
Eventually the excuses just don't cut it anymore. "God HAD to let such-and-such happen or He wouldn't be a just God!", or "The Devil is still in control of the world!" (and just how the hell did THAT happen, anyway - nobody was watching?), or - the Wayworld favorite "It musta been YOUR believing!". Funny how you never read those excuses in The Bible, huh? Nope, there it's always set-in-stone verities. "Thus the LORD did such and such" "Ye SHALL receive all the good stuff you've been wanting", "Those that work iniquity will SURELY die" (gee, and nobody else does?).
It all strikes me as a toxic game of mental gymnastics. I'm just tired of jumping through the hoops anymore...
I, like you Suda, still consider myself somewhat Christian and still believe in God and Jesus. The big difference for me is the more I go along in life, the less I believe the Bible is the the Word or Will of God. That belief in itself makes it harder to say I am Christian (at least in my own mind). I do a lot of thinking about it because my previous teaching is against this completely. I see rigidity in the Bible, but I also see incredible love. I think the rigidity in it came from men who came from a Phariseeical background. I just don't believe the Bible is God-breathed anymore.
Since I came from a Christian background, it is sometimes difficult for me to figure out where I am spiritually. That being said, I am perfectly OK with that. I think I'm trying to put myself back in to a box if I try to put a lable on my belief system.
When I read this thread, I thought back to a girl I used to work with. I was still a very faithful Wayfer at the time. She asked me what the big deal with Good Friday and Easter was. Oh my! I thought is was a perfect opportunity to witness to her. I was going through the different doctrinal differences of how Jesus couldn't have died on Good Friday if he was raised on Sunday. Her only response out of it was "Nobody god raised from the dead." And she walked away. My twit-brained mind was screaming "AntiChrist!!" Now that I think back to that incidient, I don't think she was AntiChrist or even had a spirit. She had a different belief system. That's all.
quote: When it came to the bible it seemed apparent to me that I was taking this guy's word that this other gy's word that these guy's words in a book were not only accurate, but truth and God's Word. It seemed that in order to have faith in God I needed first to have faith in those other guys. Dang if that isn't what Rom. 10:14 says in a way.
Remember, faith cometh by hearing, not by seeing. It takes at least as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a Christian. Cause to be an atheist you're still basing it all on this guy and that guy and this other guy...whoever you HEARD it from. Right?
to be an atheist you're still basing it all on this guy and that guy and this other guy...whoever you HEARD it from. Right?
I hear this often from the believer crowd, and I still can't get my brain around it. No, you don't need a preacher to NOT believe in something. We're all born agnostics...
quote: I think I'm trying to put myself back in to a box if I try to put a lable on my belief system.
There's 2 boxes everybody is in; they're called time and space, and they're fairly rigid. Wherever you are, THAT'S where you are, nowhere else and whatever time and date it is, THAT'S what it is, not another. This continuous common reality makes it easy for us to put other things in boxes, not because there's nothing else there, just because life is easier to process with a good filing system.
Even God's word is not going to process everything for us, but IMO it sure covers a lot of ground. In fact, it covers "wherever you are". :)
quote: I think I'm trying to put myself back in to a box if I try to put a lable on my belief system.
There's 2 boxes everybody is in; they're called time and space, and they're fairly rigid. Wherever you are, THAT'S where you are, nowhere else and whatever time and date it is, THAT'S what it is, not another. This continuous common reality makes it easy for us to put other things in boxes, not because there's nothing else there, just because life is easier to process with a good filing system.
Even God's word is not going to process everything for us, but IMO it sure covers a lot of ground. In fact, it covers "wherever you are". :)
Maybe my filing system is so big it doesn't need a box. We are in the computer age now.;)
I appreciate your post because it speaks to a lot of us who found church overwhelming while growing up (my own kids refuse to go to church) or even in our early TWIG days...
"Mostly I realized that an inordinate amount of the true believer's time was spent doing spin-control for The Almighty. Making up excuses for why somebody didn't get healed, why the guy in your twig DIDN'T get the promotion, why evil unbeliever that's been taunting believer-person seems to continue prospering, why you don't have peace or joy in your life..."
But the fact remains that in spite of a lack of deliverance of folks prayed for in the name of the Father-Son-and Holy Ghost... (some get healed.. most don't.. like the general population) and lack of financial prosperity of those who profess Christian principles (Jews do a lot better on average) ... People who espouse religious beliefs (Mormon, Evangelical, Muslim etc..) will believe... even though common sense and logic says otherwise. We have unequivocal evidence from multiple people presented here that VPW was a degenerate despicable man. But still we have his defenders saying that yeah but... he sure taught "The Word" so he's alright. Italian Dictator Mussolini made the trains run on time so he wasn't all that bad either, huh??? Gag me with a dang spoon with that kind of logic!!!
Really and truly you guys MUST know.. deep deep down... admit it to yourselves... that all this religious stuff is just nonsense that has been passed down and now is the emperor's new clothes. Most know but few will acknowledge.
Lookie at a page from the Muslim world Click Here! and see how similar it is to Christian web sites. PEOPLE!! LISTEN TO ME!!!!!! Can you not see??? Religions.. ALL RELIGIONS.. are man made my dear friends.
No, we're all born humans with brains with an appetite to believe...something.
quote: Lookie at a page from the Muslim world Click Here! and see how similar it is to Christian web sites. PEOPLE!! LISTEN TO ME!!!!!! Can you not see??? Religions.. ALL RELIGIONS.. are man made my dear friends.
Yeah, so is everything else man made. I guess man needs to make stuff from time to time. Do these Muslim websites say that God raised Jesus from the dead and that his finished works are the payment for mankind's sins? If not, they can't be too similar.
The example given in the Bible that the Law or the Word is not written in stone is actually in the Bible.
The record is that a woman was found in adultery. Jesus was confronted by the Pharisees that the Law said she must be stoned to death. He wrote in the sand, thought about it, and said "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." Then they all left and he told the woman to go sin no more.
Ironically in the religious world, they indicate that this record isn't in original manuscripts. Then how do we know what is in the original manuscripts? I think if God wanted us to know so much of the Bible, it wouldn't be so contradictory. How much is in the "original manuscripts" and what is not. How do we know the "original manuscripts" are "God's Word"?
It sure makes a ministry which bases it's whole fiber of beliefs and worship on it look weak.
Thanks for all the responses. I have enjoyed reading them.
Here's another possible bottom line:
I was brought up in a close-knit, warm and loving Christian home. My parents taught me their personal Christian beliefs, morals, and values from birth. They showed me how to put into practice what I had learned in my daily life, and how to make choices and decisions about my life based upon the core beliefs of our religion. My parents attended a Presbyterian Church; my fraternal grandparents were Primitive Baptist; my maternal grandparents were Roman Catholic. I was also taught the Christian beliefs, morals and values of my grandparents. I recall not discrepancies between the morals and values taught. However, there were significant differences in the Christian beliefs between Presbyterian, Primitive Baptist, and Roman Catholic faiths. Over time, I sifted through what I was taught, kept what “fit for me personally” from each, and discarded parts of each belief system that I did not agree with.
Overall, my experience with Christianity was positive. It provided what I considered to be a good foundation for discerning between right and wrong, and gave some good direction in how to live my life. It provided me with a standard against which to evaluate new information and experiences. It provided me comfort and hope in bad times, and peace and confidence in good times.
Had I grown up in a Christian home, with parent’s who did not “practice what they preached” and/or had an overall bad experience with Christianity as a child, I’m sure it would have spurred me to look elsewhere.
Had I been reared in another religion, and had my experiences with that religion been positive overall, I think it would have taken something cataclysmic to sway me away from that upbringing.
So another “bottom line” as to why I am Christian, is that it was the faith of my family, it was overall positive learning experience, and I often experience what I believe to be the personal touch of God and Jesus Christ in my life. I desired a personal relationship with them, and feel that I have developed intimate relationships with them.
I assume by proof you don't mean convincing one person but showing everybody
I think a personal experience of being touched by the Master’s hand would be proof to the individual, but not necessarily to anyone else. However, if they saw or heard of the “sign, miracle, or wonder” that happened in my life, it might strengthen their belief if they were already a Christian. If they were not, it could spur them to learn more and could be a stepping stone for them to eventually adopt Christianity as their belief system. However, if they have no interest in Christianity, it would not serve as proof nor a motivator to them.
LikeAnEagle, I can really relate to your statement:
I feel staying a christian is a part of my dna....some things I learned about the new birth, I learned for "Life".
Thanks for putting it in purple!
Belle, think you’re absolutely right in
Suda, I suspect that there are as many "bottom line"s as there are people.
Also agree wholeheartedly with
The thing that aggravates most people is when some know-it-all tries to "convert" or persuade them that their belief is wrong and that they should believe the same things said know-it-all does.
Yeah, those who see it their mission to proselytize everyone to their particular mind set are annoying. To me, the witness should be in the way you live your life more than words you speak concerning your faith. Reminds me of the poem, “Sermons We See”. If someone desires to know more about my faith and beliefs, I'm glad to discuss it with them. If it comes up naturally in a discussion, I'm eager to talk about it. But I’ve never been one who was comfortable with “witnessing” just for the purpose of getting recruits. Guess the only proselytizing I’ve ever been comfortable with is in teaching my children, but I see that as my job as their momma. Now that they are of an age to make their own decisions concerning their faith, my desire for them is to find a faith and belief system they are comfortable with and that meets their individual needs. I’d love for it to be Christianity, but if it is not, I could accept their choices.
Love your quote from socks, also:
My thought is - there's nothing "wrong" with how an atheist believes or feels. They may be wrong by what I believe to be true, limited in understanding, but the truth is, I am too, in my own ways. Everyone is. It's completely normal that some won't come to the same place as I am.
To me Oakspear, Bramble, Belle, Lifted Up, and Mr. P-Mosh are sterling examples of posters who have chosen non-Christian belief systems post-twi. They, among others, have helped enlighten me as to why someone would adopt agnostic/atheist/non-theist beliefs versus Christianity. Their viewpoints are well reasoned and presented in a logical manner that are easy to follow and understand. Their posts entreat you to honestly examine your own beliefs and consider them in contrast to the information they have presented. Their “attitude” in posting comes across as confident and tolerant, and open to discussion and exploration. They seem comfortable with the idea of variances in beliefs and exhibit no need to criticize another’s belief system. This leads me to believe they are at peace and at ease with their beliefs.
Others who have chosen non-Christian beliefs seem to have the attitude of “reformed smokers” in their posts. Often, their posts anger me because of the arrogant, condescending tone, intolerance for differing viewpoints, and what seems close to (if not actual) venomous nature. I sometimes wonder if this is “separation anxiety”: a reflection of their disappointment in themselves for having once held beliefs they now reject. It’s almost as if they need to attack others to help appease their own self-loathing for allowing themselves to be deceived in the past. Is this like a stage of “grief” they must pass through? Is it something they overcome, or does continue forever?
The only post in this thread that resembles the “reformed smoker” attitude is the one from Sudo.
Really and truly you guys MUST know.. deep deep down... admit it to yourselves... that all this religious stuff is just nonsense that has been passed down and now is the emperor's new clothes. Most know but few will acknowledge.
Comparing it to a previous post in “How can you not Believe” from December 23, 2005, the tone is less caustic, but not to the caliber of one by Oakspear or others I mentioned earlier.
But if you consider all the religions and how they've come and gone (Christianity is a relative new comer) why DO you still believe? I have a theory.. I think there's a gene that makes religious folks vulnerable to believing superstitious nonsense. That's why I cut folks like you a break. You can't really help it that you believe god myths as children believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. And since you can't help it that you believe in astronomically stupid concepts (the universe is only 300 years old, dead folks talk, re-animate, talk from burning bushes etc..) then I would be mean spirited to hold you accountable for what is beyond your intellectual control.
And as anyone around here can tell you, Clay.. I would NEVER pick on the mentally less fortunate or try to take advantage of them. But would you be interested in buying a genuine certified piece of wood from the Holy cross that Jesus bore on the way to Calvary? I have eye witness testimony that even LOOKING at it has cured people of awful diseases. And it could be yours for less than 6 figures :) ."
sudo (who believes its immoral to allow a fool to keep his money)
So here’s another question . . . why the difference in attitudes? Just poster “personality” or something else I’m missing?
Suda (confused and bruised and miffed by Sudo’s posts)
No, we're all born humans with brains with an appetite to believe...something.
I think when he says "agnostics", he means we're born not knowing anything, which is true. I don't know whether or not we're born with an appetite to believe or not, but I guess your opinion is as valid as anyone else's. I'd be interested in your reasons for believing that.
I came to the realization that the only honest answer I can give is "I don't know".
I don't know that there is a God, or that Christ was His son or that Mohammad was His prophet. I'm pretty sure that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, but I'm scared at the multitude that believe that he was. If Loy was his prophet, I really need to walk away.
For me, God just didn't leave enough clues to allow me to use my brain and make a logical decision. And he did give me a brain. And you know what, I'm done searching. There's not a whole lot of things I can do well, and "spreading the Word" definitely isn't one of them.
OTOH, I'll gladly participate in my Jewish friends' Passover, my Muslim friends' Eid al-Fitr and send out Christmas cards. I bear no ill to the true believer. In some ways I envy him/her. Life is simpler with a defined code of conduct and a set of pre-made friends.
I think when he says "agnostics", he means we're born not knowing anything, which is true. I don't know whether or not we're born with an appetite to believe or not, but I guess your opinion is as valid as anyone else's. I'd be interested in your reasons for believing that.
Of all the things LCM said, one still rings true. He said that it was God who made people with the appetites they have for many things, but it's the adversary who manipulates those appetites in ways that are hurtful to people; something like that. If all said is true, then LCM had/has some hurtful appetites of his own, but that's a different topic.
I believe that God gave us brains so we'd use them. We all seem to gravitate toward forming conclusions about our environment(s), some permanent, some temporary, and one of those conclusions is about how we got here with all the ramifications. Agnostic isn't nothing; it's a thought through belief system just like any religion. If what you say is true, that Geo meant we're all born with clean slates, then yes I agree, but to me saying we're all born agnostics suggests that any conclusion reached about a God requires some outside tampering beyond that required of other conclusions. THAT I don't agree with.
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George Aar
I came to Wayworld as an agnostic. I had spent some 20 years or so of my youth in either a Lutheran Church or the Methodist Reformed (now ask me if I could tell the difference) and was pretty much tir
Suda
Another way to state the "bottom line" in my previous post could be:
IMO, one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Our belief or non-belief is based upon whether or not we experience what we believe to be God working in our lives.
Suda
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Lifted Up
True. I assume by proof you don't mean convincing one person but showing everybody. And yes, our "belief systems" are often based on our experiences, which are as different as each of us are.
But I know we don't live in different universes. Like, where Christ rose from the dead in your universe and didnt rise (or didnt exist) in mine.
You are certainly correct in describing them as different belief systems, and not different universes.
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lindyhopper
To put it simply, after being raised in twi and taught there wasn't "faith" as most of the world knows it, I realised that is all we have. This may be true of most things or even all things but for me I think there is a base amount in which we need to be certain of in order to remain sane. The rest is uncertainty. We either live with and deal with that, deal with it while still searching for assuredness, or we choose something to be certain of and act as if it is so, but that certainty does not make it so.
When it came to the bible it seemed apparent to me that I was taking this guy's word that this other gy's word that these guy's words in a book were not only accurate, but truth and God's Word. It seemed that in order to have faith in God I needed first to have faith in those other guys. Dang if that isn't what Rom. 10:14 says in a way.
For me it became dishonest to myself and to others to continue to be so certain of things I didn't really know, at least with things as important as God and the meaning of life and all that. It all became so unreal to me, getting together to support and bolster our agreed upon answers to life and beyond. It was faith upon faith upon faith. So much so that it all HAD to be right and real otherwise the whole house of cards would come falling down and we would be left with was lawlessness, fear, death, and anarchy.
On the other side of the coin though, I am only an atheist in that I don't believe, not in that I am certain there is no God. That is the same thing with a different t-shirt. Doubt can easily be changed, certitude is a little harder to chip away at. That can make it powerful or very dangerous.
I hear 1 Cor. 14:33 from many saying God is not the author of confusion. That sounds great, but uncertainty does not equal confusion. In fact, coming to terms with the fact that you know that you know that you don't know is quite liberating and clarifying. At least it was for me.
No offense to anyone. Just my thoughts, my journey, YMMV.
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likeaneagle
My answers are in purple, for the Purple lady :)
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Belle
Suda, I suspect that there are as many "bottom line"s as there are people. :)
Some of us saw downright contradictions to what TWI taught and awful failures at trying to see "signs, miracles and wonders".
Once the farce of TWI and the teachings of TWI has been discovered, some people hold on tightly to that baby for dear life. The baby can't be a farce, too, or the whole of their beliefs collapses in on itself.
Others consider that the baby was a farce just like TWI and start from there.
Yet others, consider the baby but the more they look into getting answers to the original questions they had and the additional questions that TWI involvement raises - they come to the conclusion that there is no baby.
Still others chuck the whole d@mn thing and don't care if there is a baby or not - they're just done with the whole blasted thing.
Every person is different in their belief, even those who sit next to you (rhetorical) at Sunday School. The thing that aggravates most people is when some know-it-all tries to "convert" or persuade them that their belief is wrong and that they should believe the same things said know-it-all does.
I haven't written God off per se, but I do not think, if there is a God, that he is much of anything like what the typical western religion teaches him to be. My beliefs change pretty regularly these days depending on what I'm reading and looking into. I'm more comfortable with not knowing and find that, like Lindy said so well, quite liberating and peaceful.
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Belle
Our brother from the butt Sock drawer posted this down in the Doctrinal Dungeon and it seems to fit here, too:
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waysider
Experience vs. Words
Most people build their belief systems around their personal experiences and use words to give them credence.
This is true for all beliefs, not just ones that involve spiritual matters.
In TWI, our "experiences" were those times we spent at twig, the branch pot-lucks, the Sunday night services, the grueling boredom of Corps meetings or Fellowlaborer meetings or classes like Keys To Research, etc.
The "words", on the other hand, were the actual texts of the classes, the PFAL book, the transcripts and tapes of the Sunday night service, etc.
There has to be a healthy balance that is based on reality for it to make any sense.
Sometimes we see people who have an inordinate fixation on good "experiences" and they feel they must use "words" to find self- justification.
Sometimes we see people who have an inordinate fixation on the "words" who feel they must discount their experiences to try to make sense of it all.
The healthiest approach is to look at all the data and be flexible enough to change---and then change again as new information presents itself.
That's just my opinion---- but it could change.
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johniam
I can testify as to a journey from atheism to Christianity.
My upbringing was ultra liberal. By the time I was in high school I was open about my atheism. I was convinced that the only reason anybody believed in God was because they were convinced they would go to hell if they didn't. I thought they were brainwashed; I made fun of it. Sure, there were people who believed in God whom I respected; my grandma, and people I saw regularly who didn't shun me because of my professed atheism. But mostly I saw people who believed in God as not allowing themselves to enjoy life; that was the stereotype I held.
I went to a liberal church, though. Interesting that Ann Coulter's recent book calls liberalism a church, because my mom always told me to say I went to a LIBERAL church if other kids on the street asked me about that. The church is called Fountain Street Church and the likes of Robert Frost, Stokley Carmicheal, and recently Michael Moore have been guest speakers there. But after 9th grade I stopped going to that church because I found it boring. But things happened along the way.
In 4th grade I was in church and there was this room where they showed cartoons before Sunday school and on this day they showed an hour long movie about Jesus. In that church Jesus was not viewed as evil; just as one religious leader among all the rest. So I watched the movie and it gave me a good feeling. So I walk to my Sunday school class and when asked where I was I said, "I saw a movie about JESUS!!!!!" Loud laughter followed. They weren't mean about it, just skeptical, but the film definitely made an impression on me.
In 10th grade some guys, both of whom are still atheists, talked me into going to a Christian fellowship just to check it out nothing better to do. It was about the size of a twig, but midweek at a Presbyterian church. During the meeting I felt a very powerful presence in the room, especially when they all prayed. It felt good. I even prayed myself. This was before I ever started using drugs. I later felt the same powerful presence during every session 12 I was ever at. But I basically blew it off, although I wasn't as quick to claim to be an atheist anymore.
In 1973 I was hitching from STL to San Francisco and I got picked up in St. Charles, just 30 miles west of STL and got a ride all the way to Seattle. At first there were 4 people in the car, 3 guys, 1 girl. They witnessed to me aggressively. I accused them of cramming their religion down my throat. They stopped. In Kansas City, 2 of the guys got dropped off, including the most aggressive one. By the time we got to Denver the remaining guy apologized for being too pushy and simply told me how God helped him out of a serious legal situation and that if I ever got really bummed out with life to ask for His help.
In 1975 I spent the summer as an assistant park ranger at Wilson State Park in Harrison, MI. I was away from my friends most of the time. Two coworkers each invited me to their church. One was weird. They were into loud sobbing during the sermon and several people came up to the altar and said praise Jesus a lot. It was confusing. Only went once. The other one was much different. Same powerful presence. The minister talked to me personally and during the sermon he spoke of John the Baptist, how he was strong and not blown around by every wind of peoples' opinions.
The past few years at that time saw failed attempts to keep jobs, failed romantic relationships, failure to stay in school, and deteriorating relationships with family members. I wished I was strong. But this, too, I blew off.
Then in fall of '76 a musician friend whom I respected witnessed to me. He had tried to witness to me previously, but my prepared one liners always backed people off, including him. Not this time. He was bold and confrontational. No surprise he'd just taken PFAL. So later that night I told God I'd give it a try for one year but that I needed to see undeniable results. Thirty one years later I feel that was the smartest decision I ever made. Christianity rerouted a very troubled life. At one time I would have creditted TWI for most of it, but if they hadn't been there something else would have.
I think going from Christianity to atheism would be a demotion, but that's me. Use this post as an anti-model if it fits.
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Oakspear
It seems that most people need a belief system to make sense of things.
When someone decides to be an atheist the belief system is that a supernatural being is not necessary to make sense of the world anymore. As human beings we want to see causes to everything, we want to see patterns to events. An atheist is less likely than some to need see impose causes and patterns where there isn't necessarily any.
Even when we experience something that is seemingly unexplainable, a "sign, miracle or wonder", it is we that impose the label upon it, it is we who decide that it "must be God", or if our belief system is different that it is Reiki, or magick, or aliens. We "feel a presence" and interpret it as God...or the Goddess...or our dead ancestors...or whatever else our belief system requires. Even if we experienced a Cecil B. DeMille technicolor miracle we would only attribute it to the biblical God if we were predisposed to that belief system.
For those who have maintained Christianity through TWI and post-TWI days, obviously the Christian framework is the most comfortable and consistant and fits with their experiences. For those who haven't stuck with Christianity, the biblical model no longer fits for them, is no longer consistant with their experiences.
When I was in TWI the framework that I hung my experiences on was the bible as expounded and explained by Wierwille and later Martindale in PFAL, WayAP and the other classes. During the last few years that I was involved in TWI, there were numerous errors that I found in Martindale's teachings. Errors found using PFAL's "keys". Later I began to find similar errors in Wierwille's teachings. Stumbling across CES's website showed me how using biblical research "keys" was no guarantee to coming up with the same answers. Still later I came to the conclusion that the bible itself wasn't any more reliable, and that there was no evident reason to accept that it was god-breathed.
Although I have not "journeyed" to atheism, my belief system is not Christianity. I can see why some would find it appealing, but find no objective reasons to adhere to it myself.
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George Aar
I came to Wayworld as an agnostic. I had spent some 20 years or so of my youth in either a Lutheran Church or the Methodist Reformed (now ask me if I could tell the difference) and was pretty much tired of empty platitudes and toothy grins on Sunday morning from people that hated my guts the rest of the week. I'd never seen much of anything in religion except the musty-smelling basements and some timid housewife trying to convince the kids in her group that "Religion is really fun!"
So when I heard Wierwille talking about all the terrific signs and wonders and healings and all the other empty promises, somehow I paid attention (could it have anything to do with the fact that I was madly "in love" with the girl who witnessed to me?). Here was finally somebody saying that The Bible had REAL promises that would come to pass in your daily life - IF - you knew the secret code!
So, all that was well and good. Life goes on. You speak in tongues, get together very regularly to reconvince yourselves that you're really onto something special, and you slowly get older. FINALLY, one day you unlease all those pent-up doubts and start looking at the whole concept a little more dispassionately. AND, the tenets of your faith don't tolerate real, in-depth scrutiny very well - at least mine didn't. And the light dawns on you that, lo and behold, the whole religion game is hardly anymore credible than a kid's book of fairy tales. There's lots of well-worn arguments to try to hold the game together, but those are hardly anymore believeable than the religion itself. So, you drop the facade and try to figure out life on your own.
Mostly I realized that an inordinate amount of the true believer's time was spent doing spin-control for The Almighty. Making up excuses for why somebody didn't get healed, why the guy in your twig DIDN'T get the promotion, why evil unbeliever that's been taunting believer-person seems to continue prospering, why you don't have peace or joy in your life, why you don't seem to have any fellowship with "The Father", why everybody outside of your fellowship seems to be doing quite well, while you and yours are constantly struggling.
Eventually the excuses just don't cut it anymore. "God HAD to let such-and-such happen or He wouldn't be a just God!", or "The Devil is still in control of the world!" (and just how the hell did THAT happen, anyway - nobody was watching?), or - the Wayworld favorite "It musta been YOUR believing!". Funny how you never read those excuses in The Bible, huh? Nope, there it's always set-in-stone verities. "Thus the LORD did such and such" "Ye SHALL receive all the good stuff you've been wanting", "Those that work iniquity will SURELY die" (gee, and nobody else does?).
It all strikes me as a toxic game of mental gymnastics. I'm just tired of jumping through the hoops anymore...
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Nottawayfer
I, like you Suda, still consider myself somewhat Christian and still believe in God and Jesus. The big difference for me is the more I go along in life, the less I believe the Bible is the the Word or Will of God. That belief in itself makes it harder to say I am Christian (at least in my own mind). I do a lot of thinking about it because my previous teaching is against this completely. I see rigidity in the Bible, but I also see incredible love. I think the rigidity in it came from men who came from a Phariseeical background. I just don't believe the Bible is God-breathed anymore.
Since I came from a Christian background, it is sometimes difficult for me to figure out where I am spiritually. That being said, I am perfectly OK with that. I think I'm trying to put myself back in to a box if I try to put a lable on my belief system.
When I read this thread, I thought back to a girl I used to work with. I was still a very faithful Wayfer at the time. She asked me what the big deal with Good Friday and Easter was. Oh my! I thought is was a perfect opportunity to witness to her. I was going through the different doctrinal differences of how Jesus couldn't have died on Good Friday if he was raised on Sunday. Her only response out of it was "Nobody god raised from the dead." And she walked away. My twit-brained mind was screaming "AntiChrist!!" Now that I think back to that incidient, I don't think she was AntiChrist or even had a spirit. She had a different belief system. That's all.
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johniam
quote: When it came to the bible it seemed apparent to me that I was taking this guy's word that this other gy's word that these guy's words in a book were not only accurate, but truth and God's Word. It seemed that in order to have faith in God I needed first to have faith in those other guys. Dang if that isn't what Rom. 10:14 says in a way.
Remember, faith cometh by hearing, not by seeing. It takes at least as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a Christian. Cause to be an atheist you're still basing it all on this guy and that guy and this other guy...whoever you HEARD it from. Right?
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George Aar
I hear this often from the believer crowd, and I still can't get my brain around it. No, you don't need a preacher to NOT believe in something. We're all born agnostics...
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johniam
quote: I think I'm trying to put myself back in to a box if I try to put a lable on my belief system.
There's 2 boxes everybody is in; they're called time and space, and they're fairly rigid. Wherever you are, THAT'S where you are, nowhere else and whatever time and date it is, THAT'S what it is, not another. This continuous common reality makes it easy for us to put other things in boxes, not because there's nothing else there, just because life is easier to process with a good filing system.
Even God's word is not going to process everything for us, but IMO it sure covers a lot of ground. In fact, it covers "wherever you are". :)
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Nottawayfer
Maybe my filing system is so big it doesn't need a box. We are in the computer age now.;)
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Sudo
Geo,
I appreciate your post because it speaks to a lot of us who found church overwhelming while growing up (my own kids refuse to go to church) or even in our early TWIG days...
"Mostly I realized that an inordinate amount of the true believer's time was spent doing spin-control for The Almighty. Making up excuses for why somebody didn't get healed, why the guy in your twig DIDN'T get the promotion, why evil unbeliever that's been taunting believer-person seems to continue prospering, why you don't have peace or joy in your life..."
But the fact remains that in spite of a lack of deliverance of folks prayed for in the name of the Father-Son-and Holy Ghost... (some get healed.. most don't.. like the general population) and lack of financial prosperity of those who profess Christian principles (Jews do a lot better on average) ... People who espouse religious beliefs (Mormon, Evangelical, Muslim etc..) will believe... even though common sense and logic says otherwise. We have unequivocal evidence from multiple people presented here that VPW was a degenerate despicable man. But still we have his defenders saying that yeah but... he sure taught "The Word" so he's alright. Italian Dictator Mussolini made the trains run on time so he wasn't all that bad either, huh??? Gag me with a dang spoon with that kind of logic!!!
Really and truly you guys MUST know.. deep deep down... admit it to yourselves... that all this religious stuff is just nonsense that has been passed down and now is the emperor's new clothes. Most know but few will acknowledge.
Lookie at a page from the Muslim world Click Here! and see how similar it is to Christian web sites. PEOPLE!! LISTEN TO ME!!!!!! Can you not see??? Religions.. ALL RELIGIONS.. are man made my dear friends.
sudo
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johniam
quote: We're all born agnostics...
No, we're all born humans with brains with an appetite to believe...something.
quote: Lookie at a page from the Muslim world Click Here! and see how similar it is to Christian web sites. PEOPLE!! LISTEN TO ME!!!!!! Can you not see??? Religions.. ALL RELIGIONS.. are man made my dear friends.
Yeah, so is everything else man made. I guess man needs to make stuff from time to time. Do these Muslim websites say that God raised Jesus from the dead and that his finished works are the payment for mankind's sins? If not, they can't be too similar.
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Nottawayfer
The example given in the Bible that the Law or the Word is not written in stone is actually in the Bible.
The record is that a woman was found in adultery. Jesus was confronted by the Pharisees that the Law said she must be stoned to death. He wrote in the sand, thought about it, and said "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." Then they all left and he told the woman to go sin no more.
Ironically in the religious world, they indicate that this record isn't in original manuscripts. Then how do we know what is in the original manuscripts? I think if God wanted us to know so much of the Bible, it wouldn't be so contradictory. How much is in the "original manuscripts" and what is not. How do we know the "original manuscripts" are "God's Word"?
It sure makes a ministry which bases it's whole fiber of beliefs and worship on it look weak.
I'm glad He looks on the heart.
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Suda
Thanks for all the responses. I have enjoyed reading them.
Here's another possible bottom line:
I was brought up in a close-knit, warm and loving Christian home. My parents taught me their personal Christian beliefs, morals, and values from birth. They showed me how to put into practice what I had learned in my daily life, and how to make choices and decisions about my life based upon the core beliefs of our religion. My parents attended a Presbyterian Church; my fraternal grandparents were Primitive Baptist; my maternal grandparents were Roman Catholic. I was also taught the Christian beliefs, morals and values of my grandparents. I recall not discrepancies between the morals and values taught. However, there were significant differences in the Christian beliefs between Presbyterian, Primitive Baptist, and Roman Catholic faiths. Over time, I sifted through what I was taught, kept what “fit for me personally” from each, and discarded parts of each belief system that I did not agree with.
Overall, my experience with Christianity was positive. It provided what I considered to be a good foundation for discerning between right and wrong, and gave some good direction in how to live my life. It provided me with a standard against which to evaluate new information and experiences. It provided me comfort and hope in bad times, and peace and confidence in good times.
Had I grown up in a Christian home, with parent’s who did not “practice what they preached” and/or had an overall bad experience with Christianity as a child, I’m sure it would have spurred me to look elsewhere.
Had I been reared in another religion, and had my experiences with that religion been positive overall, I think it would have taken something cataclysmic to sway me away from that upbringing.
So another “bottom line” as to why I am Christian, is that it was the faith of my family, it was overall positive learning experience, and I often experience what I believe to be the personal touch of God and Jesus Christ in my life. I desired a personal relationship with them, and feel that I have developed intimate relationships with them.
Suda
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Suda
Lifted Up, thanks for your response. Re:
I think a personal experience of being touched by the Master’s hand would be proof to the individual, but not necessarily to anyone else. However, if they saw or heard of the “sign, miracle, or wonder” that happened in my life, it might strengthen their belief if they were already a Christian. If they were not, it could spur them to learn more and could be a stepping stone for them to eventually adopt Christianity as their belief system. However, if they have no interest in Christianity, it would not serve as proof nor a motivator to them.LikeAnEagle, I can really relate to your statement:
Thanks for putting it in purple!
Belle, think you’re absolutely right in
Also agree wholeheartedly withYeah, those who see it their mission to proselytize everyone to their particular mind set are annoying. To me, the witness should be in the way you live your life more than words you speak concerning your faith. Reminds me of the poem, “Sermons We See”. If someone desires to know more about my faith and beliefs, I'm glad to discuss it with them. If it comes up naturally in a discussion, I'm eager to talk about it. But I’ve never been one who was comfortable with “witnessing” just for the purpose of getting recruits. Guess the only proselytizing I’ve ever been comfortable with is in teaching my children, but I see that as my job as their momma. Now that they are of an age to make their own decisions concerning their faith, my desire for them is to find a faith and belief system they are comfortable with and that meets their individual needs. I’d love for it to be Christianity, but if it is not, I could accept their choices.
Love your quote from socks, also:
Thanks for all the input!
Suda
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Suda
To me Oakspear, Bramble, Belle, Lifted Up, and Mr. P-Mosh are sterling examples of posters who have chosen non-Christian belief systems post-twi. They, among others, have helped enlighten me as to why someone would adopt agnostic/atheist/non-theist beliefs versus Christianity. Their viewpoints are well reasoned and presented in a logical manner that are easy to follow and understand. Their posts entreat you to honestly examine your own beliefs and consider them in contrast to the information they have presented. Their “attitude” in posting comes across as confident and tolerant, and open to discussion and exploration. They seem comfortable with the idea of variances in beliefs and exhibit no need to criticize another’s belief system. This leads me to believe they are at peace and at ease with their beliefs.
Others who have chosen non-Christian beliefs seem to have the attitude of “reformed smokers” in their posts. Often, their posts anger me because of the arrogant, condescending tone, intolerance for differing viewpoints, and what seems close to (if not actual) venomous nature. I sometimes wonder if this is “separation anxiety”: a reflection of their disappointment in themselves for having once held beliefs they now reject. It’s almost as if they need to attack others to help appease their own self-loathing for allowing themselves to be deceived in the past. Is this like a stage of “grief” they must pass through? Is it something they overcome, or does continue forever?
The only post in this thread that resembles the “reformed smoker” attitude is the one from Sudo.
Comparing it to a previous post in “How can you not Believe” from December 23, 2005, the tone is less caustic, but not to the caliber of one by Oakspear or others I mentioned earlier.So here’s another question . . . why the difference in attitudes? Just poster “personality” or something else I’m missing?
Suda (confused and bruised and miffed by Sudo’s posts)
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Oakspear
I think when he says "agnostics", he means we're born not knowing anything, which is true. I don't know whether or not we're born with an appetite to believe or not, but I guess your opinion is as valid as anyone else's. I'd be interested in your reasons for believing that.
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Jim
I came to the realization that the only honest answer I can give is "I don't know".
I don't know that there is a God, or that Christ was His son or that Mohammad was His prophet. I'm pretty sure that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, but I'm scared at the multitude that believe that he was. If Loy was his prophet, I really need to walk away.
For me, God just didn't leave enough clues to allow me to use my brain and make a logical decision. And he did give me a brain. And you know what, I'm done searching. There's not a whole lot of things I can do well, and "spreading the Word" definitely isn't one of them.
OTOH, I'll gladly participate in my Jewish friends' Passover, my Muslim friends' Eid al-Fitr and send out Christmas cards. I bear no ill to the true believer. In some ways I envy him/her. Life is simpler with a defined code of conduct and a set of pre-made friends.
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johniam
Of all the things LCM said, one still rings true. He said that it was God who made people with the appetites they have for many things, but it's the adversary who manipulates those appetites in ways that are hurtful to people; something like that. If all said is true, then LCM had/has some hurtful appetites of his own, but that's a different topic.
I believe that God gave us brains so we'd use them. We all seem to gravitate toward forming conclusions about our environment(s), some permanent, some temporary, and one of those conclusions is about how we got here with all the ramifications. Agnostic isn't nothing; it's a thought through belief system just like any religion. If what you say is true, that Geo meant we're all born with clean slates, then yes I agree, but to me saying we're all born agnostics suggests that any conclusion reached about a God requires some outside tampering beyond that required of other conclusions. THAT I don't agree with.
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