believe they're "out here", functioning at various levels of society, and not always where there's a steeple or a collection plate. How's about you?
O yea , they are definitely there.
Its tough to pin down a pattern of who is who, most that Ive seen, that are genuinely gifted (and I dont mean that in some hokey sense).... spend alot more time just doing the right thing as a natural course of their life than talking about it or worse yet dictating to you how to better your life.. and Ive found for the most part they are very unassuming, down to earth, and easily approachable with very few or no airs about them. You may never know--until you take the time to observe
They may have areal Doctor's degree somewhere, an ordination (or not), maybe they are uneducated (they come in all flavors) and way off the beaten track but Ive yet to run into anyone who was the real deal who was worried or concerned about their title or somehow wanted to elevate their status above you.
I'll think about it more--its hard to describe--they could be anywhere in any walk of life...
For me a genuine leader is the person who can recognize and detect the strong and weak areas in people life and mission. and take the necesary action to direct each to become the best they can be .
the leader is the one who can be the one who works with what they got recognize it for what it is and make it good for all involved!
what does it Take to get these skills Well education varies within the area but a true "born leader basicly just enjoys people and desires for them to grow and be "good" at what they do in an area... and the side effect is the leaders are then respected and loved and turn into "leaders".
we all lead really and we all follow I think the bottom line has to be love for people and a little faith in the power within each individual to make the difference for all.
but the reality is most "leaders" in todays world are just foot hules who can lie and cheat better than the next guy to really cut you in the back harder before it gets them... till they too fall and no one wants to help them back up.
maybe it is to make a difference.. and then just prove yourself to be the same as anybody else. Just move on.. no fame, no glory. It's not really about "you" anyway.. well, maybe one half of one percent..
Fundamentally, I don't think any of us are really any different than anyone else.
lately I despise claims of superiority.. even my own..
3(F)not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, (G)free from the love of money.
4He must be one who (H)manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity. (My take in that last phrase, regarding dignity, would exclude tyranny/dictatorship).
It's easy to bully, but a greater challenge to lay down your "self" for someone else. And difficult to separate the two if there's a big ego involved.
Thanks for the great responses, y'all. I'm inbetween distractions (work, etc.) and look forward to digging into your posts.
Working bottoms - up - cinder, thanks for that. Those certainly do seem to be things I'd want to see or have.
I find it so funny in a crazy way that Paul wrote specifically about "not loving money". Clearly nothing is wrong with money. Works for me. But the love of money would open up some serious conflicts for a person who was this "overseer" he's talking about. When a person enters into a trusted relationship with others they don't want to bring that kind of baggage with them where they may no serve the interests of the other people well.
So, I wonder if we see that in a lot of people who step into this role and that's why there's blow ups? They may not think they do or say they do but once things get out of balance problems occur.
I just don't think a pastoral gig is the way to get rich. If you want to get rich, more power to you. It will take some work to separate the two and be honest about it but it's doable. Not many do it well apparently but it can be done I think where a person does both.
Is leadership a "once a leader always a leader" deal? Maybe there's a freshness date to look for - I don't think a person enters this kind of relationship with others and it should be expected that's what they'll do for life. Could be, wouldn't have to be. Things change, people change, sometimes for good reasons.
Lots of food for discussion here - thanks! be back...
Take OUT the word "church" and try and discover or uncover a "leader", any leader. He or she must NOT "compromise" him/her self to put their own "material" possessions or self worth above the spiritual message they wish to promote.
He or she must generate a contemporary or historical message which is new, or something you have been thinking about being of great importance. That thought must be very real for you at the time and have a human or spiritual benefit. Also you must be able to separate the messenger from the message, and the interaction will probably have to be brief. For as familiarity breeds contempt, the importance of the message will evaporate in a very short time.
As all men are liars, searching for truth in the human domain is a risky business.
for me, authenticity has to do with union with God... in Jesus, it was to do the will of Him that sent him, and to finish His work, and so it is with all those who have touched my life
sometimes it's no more than showing up when needed, "being there" for someone
it may be the simplest and "least expensive" of blessings to bestow, but it can make all the difference
In my life, the people who have had the most impact, been the most help and been the best examples of Christ's teachings have done so one-on-one and not from a pulpit. They may or may not have had a title or position, but they had the heart to serve, to help and to genuinely "love your neighbor as yourself".
I've noticed that the churches I am most drawn to may have a "lead pastor" but the pastor has been really good at finding the strengths and longsuits of those in the church and fostered those abilities to the point where the gifted people flourish and love doing what they do best thereby touching the lives of those who are in need of that particular gift.
It reminds me of a corporate definition of a good boss being one who hires employees he can train to take over his job and who are better than he is at many things. A good minister should want people in his church who are better than he is at things and who can take over when/if/should he not be able to function. A true functioning "one body" on a local level.
My great uncle is/was a lay minister. He pastored a church with three other men. All three men worked full time jobs outside of the church and took turns leading the services on Sundays. During the week they did what they could, they encouraged and supported strengths of their members and coordinated some of the more personal needs of the church members. They do not try to be all things to all men. They enjoy others helping where they want to and are able to do so. They never ask for money, nor do they ever depend on their sufficiency coming from the church. They do it because they are good at it; they love people and feel it's the least they can do. Uncle Jack is retired from the USPS now and rarely preaches due to his health, but he still ministers to people when and how he can.
I think we need more ministers like Uncle Jack, Pastor Pete and Brother Bob.
Howdy Peeps! Reading through, I took the points that you've made and listed them. Don't think I missed any, if I did or didn't capture the fulll thought, me bad! Add on, please. And any others, please post!
--------
Take OUT the word "church" and try and discover or uncover a "leader", any leader.
He or she must NOT "compromise" him/her self to put their own "material" possessions or self worth above the spiritual message they wish to promote.
He or she must generate a contemporary or historical message which is new, or something you have been thinking about being of great importance. That thought must be very real for you at the time and have a human or spiritual benefit.
able to separate the messenger from the message, and the interaction will probably have to be brief. For as familiarity breeds contempt, the importance of the message will evaporate in a very short time.
If he could restock the bar from water at the next wedding I attended, That just might do it.
it takes a wonderful human soul to see me
kind, loving, understanding, forgiving, merciful type people
i'm thinking about leaders or just good people (wouldn't it be nice if they were one-in-the-same)
Unassuming modesty.
Does not flaunt his/her knowledge/degrees/ordination/whatever.
Willing to do whatever to help (see cool chef's example)
Kind.
Honest but loving
does not seek their own glory
Stand by you
Smile :)
"the real deal" is happening wherever love is
Sometimes it's no more than showing up when needed, "being there" for someone
Authenticity has to do with union with God... in Jesus, it was to do the will of Him that sent him, and to finish His work, and so it is with all those who have touched my life
one-on-one and not from a pulpit
heart to serve, to help and to genuinely "love your neighbor as yourself".
may have a "lead pastor" but the pastor has been really good at finding the strengths and longsuits of those in the church and fostered those abilities to the point where the gifted people flourish and love doing what they do best thereby touching the lives of those who are in need of that particular gift.
A good minister should want people in his church who are better than he is at things and who can take over when/if/should he not be able to function.
They do it because they are good at it; they love people and feel it's the least they can do.
a true leader leads by example not calling myself a real leader
genuinely gifted (and I dont mean that in some hokey sense)....
spend alot more time just doing the right thing as a natural course of their life than talking about it or worse yet dictating to you how to better your life..
unassuming, down to earth, and easily approachable
the person who can recognize and detect the strong and weak areas in people life and mission. and take the necesary action to direct each to become the best they can be .
the leader is the one who can be the one who works with what they got recognize it for what it is and make it good for all involved!
a true "born leader basicly just enjoys people and desires for them to grow and be "good" at what they do in an area... and the side effect is the leaders are then respected and loved and turn into "leaders".
3(F)not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, (G)free from the love of money.
4He must be one who (H)manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity. (My take in that last phrase, regarding dignity, would exclude tyranny/dictatorship).
a really big-screen plasma TV, a refrigerated keg cooler, and maybe some Barcaloungers would be a big improvement.
You'd like the church we go to, when we do. They put in seats that are kind of like theater seats, with little cup holders. There's a pretty nifty cafe' set up in the back side room of the church where you come in and they serve coffee. They have doughnuts and fruit, so every service is kind of a brunch deal before hand and after, and then most of the people that drink coffee bring it to their seats for the service. I wish I still drank coffee regularly, it seems a practical way to do it. The services are structured but pretty informal by most standards. It's an open opportunity to come in and enjoy the whole deal without having to conform to any great extent to expecations which the average person showing up wouldn't know anyway. Very causal, rather civilized even.
I would think faithfulness and steadfastness would be important in leadership. There's a wisdom that comes with experience, and sticking with things. Also, willingness to sacrifice for the good of others would be high on my list.
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mstar1
O yea , they are definitely there.
Its tough to pin down a pattern of who is who, most that Ive seen, that are genuinely gifted (and I dont mean that in some hokey sense).... spend alot more time just doing the right thing as a natural course of their life than talking about it or worse yet dictating to you how to better your life.. and Ive found for the most part they are very unassuming, down to earth, and easily approachable with very few or no airs about them. You may never know--until you take the time to observe
They may have areal Doctor's degree somewhere, an ordination (or not), maybe they are uneducated (they come in all flavors) and way off the beaten track but Ive yet to run into anyone who was the real deal who was worried or concerned about their title or somehow wanted to elevate their status above you.
I'll think about it more--its hard to describe--they could be anywhere in any walk of life...
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pond
For me a genuine leader is the person who can recognize and detect the strong and weak areas in people life and mission. and take the necesary action to direct each to become the best they can be .
the leader is the one who can be the one who works with what they got recognize it for what it is and make it good for all involved!
what does it Take to get these skills Well education varies within the area but a true "born leader basicly just enjoys people and desires for them to grow and be "good" at what they do in an area... and the side effect is the leaders are then respected and loved and turn into "leaders".
we all lead really and we all follow I think the bottom line has to be love for people and a little faith in the power within each individual to make the difference for all.
but the reality is most "leaders" in todays world are just foot hules who can lie and cheat better than the next guy to really cut you in the back harder before it gets them... till they too fall and no one wants to help them back up.
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Ham
I dunno..
What is the genuine..
maybe it is to make a difference.. and then just prove yourself to be the same as anybody else. Just move on.. no fame, no glory. It's not really about "you" anyway.. well, maybe one half of one percent..
Fundamentally, I don't think any of us are really any different than anyone else.
lately I despise claims of superiority.. even my own..
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cinderpelt
To Quote Ham:
"I dunno..
What is the genuine.."
I have it on good authority that:
I Timothy 3:
V2(A)An overseer, then, must be above reproach, (B)the husband (this would include fidelity, imo) of one wife, ©temperate, prudent, respectable, (D)hospitable, (E)able to teach,
3(F)not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, (G)free from the love of money.
4He must be one who (H)manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity. (My take in that last phrase, regarding dignity, would exclude tyranny/dictatorship).
It's easy to bully, but a greater challenge to lay down your "self" for someone else. And difficult to separate the two if there's a big ego involved.
~Cinder
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coolchef
a true leader leads by example
not calling myself a real leader
but when i was excutive chef, if i saw the dish washer was behind i rolled up my fancy chefs coat sleeves and dove it to pots and pans,
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socks
Thanks for the great responses, y'all. I'm inbetween distractions (work, etc.) and look forward to digging into your posts.
Working bottoms - up - cinder, thanks for that. Those certainly do seem to be things I'd want to see or have.
I find it so funny in a crazy way that Paul wrote specifically about "not loving money". Clearly nothing is wrong with money. Works for me. But the love of money would open up some serious conflicts for a person who was this "overseer" he's talking about. When a person enters into a trusted relationship with others they don't want to bring that kind of baggage with them where they may no serve the interests of the other people well.
So, I wonder if we see that in a lot of people who step into this role and that's why there's blow ups? They may not think they do or say they do but once things get out of balance problems occur.
I just don't think a pastoral gig is the way to get rich. If you want to get rich, more power to you. It will take some work to separate the two and be honest about it but it's doable. Not many do it well apparently but it can be done I think where a person does both.
Is leadership a "once a leader always a leader" deal? Maybe there's a freshness date to look for - I don't think a person enters this kind of relationship with others and it should be expected that's what they'll do for life. Could be, wouldn't have to be. Things change, people change, sometimes for good reasons.
Lots of food for discussion here - thanks! be back...
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Bumpy
Take OUT the word "church" and try and discover or uncover a "leader", any leader. He or she must NOT "compromise" him/her self to put their own "material" possessions or self worth above the spiritual message they wish to promote.
He or she must generate a contemporary or historical message which is new, or something you have been thinking about being of great importance. That thought must be very real for you at the time and have a human or spiritual benefit. Also you must be able to separate the messenger from the message, and the interaction will probably have to be brief. For as familiarity breeds contempt, the importance of the message will evaporate in a very short time.
As all men are liars, searching for truth in the human domain is a risky business.
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WhiteDove
Socks If he could restock the bar from water at the next wedding I attended, That just might do it. :blink:
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excathedra
what a thought provoking thread, socksie
i'm thinking about leaders or just good people (wouldn't it be nice if they were one-in-the-same)
the greatest life changing experiences for me, personally, have come from kind, loving, understanding, forgiving, merciful type people
whether they were / are leaders -- doesn't matter to me -- it takes a wonderful human soul to see me
--
still thinking about my reply(ies)
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Watered Garden
Unassuming modesty.
Does not flaunt his/her knowledge/degrees/ordination/whatever.
Willing to do whatever to help (see cool chef's example)
Kind.
Honest but loving
does not seek their own glory
WG
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excathedra
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excathedra
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anotherDan
great question, Socks, and wonderful responses
for me, authenticity has to do with union with God... in Jesus, it was to do the will of Him that sent him, and to finish His work, and so it is with all those who have touched my life
sometimes it's no more than showing up when needed, "being there" for someone
it may be the simplest and "least expensive" of blessings to bestow, but it can make all the difference
"the real deal" is happening wherever love is
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Belle
Good question, Socks. Good answers, too. :)
In my life, the people who have had the most impact, been the most help and been the best examples of Christ's teachings have done so one-on-one and not from a pulpit. They may or may not have had a title or position, but they had the heart to serve, to help and to genuinely "love your neighbor as yourself".
I've noticed that the churches I am most drawn to may have a "lead pastor" but the pastor has been really good at finding the strengths and longsuits of those in the church and fostered those abilities to the point where the gifted people flourish and love doing what they do best thereby touching the lives of those who are in need of that particular gift.
It reminds me of a corporate definition of a good boss being one who hires employees he can train to take over his job and who are better than he is at many things. A good minister should want people in his church who are better than he is at things and who can take over when/if/should he not be able to function. A true functioning "one body" on a local level.
My great uncle is/was a lay minister. He pastored a church with three other men. All three men worked full time jobs outside of the church and took turns leading the services on Sundays. During the week they did what they could, they encouraged and supported strengths of their members and coordinated some of the more personal needs of the church members. They do not try to be all things to all men. They enjoy others helping where they want to and are able to do so. They never ask for money, nor do they ever depend on their sufficiency coming from the church. They do it because they are good at it; they love people and feel it's the least they can do. Uncle Jack is retired from the USPS now and rarely preaches due to his health, but he still ministers to people when and how he can.
I think we need more ministers like Uncle Jack, Pastor Pete and Brother Bob.
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socks
Howdy Peeps! Reading through, I took the points that you've made and listed them. Don't think I missed any, if I did or didn't capture the fulll thought, me bad! Add on, please. And any others, please post!
--------
Take OUT the word "church" and try and discover or uncover a "leader", any leader.
He or she must NOT "compromise" him/her self to put their own "material" possessions or self worth above the spiritual message they wish to promote.
He or she must generate a contemporary or historical message which is new, or something you have been thinking about being of great importance. That thought must be very real for you at the time and have a human or spiritual benefit.
able to separate the messenger from the message, and the interaction will probably have to be brief. For as familiarity breeds contempt, the importance of the message will evaporate in a very short time.
If he could restock the bar from water at the next wedding I attended, That just might do it.
it takes a wonderful human soul to see me
kind, loving, understanding, forgiving, merciful type people
i'm thinking about leaders or just good people (wouldn't it be nice if they were one-in-the-same)
Unassuming modesty.
Does not flaunt his/her knowledge/degrees/ordination/whatever.
Willing to do whatever to help (see cool chef's example)
Kind.
Honest but loving
does not seek their own glory
Stand by you
Smile :)
"the real deal" is happening wherever love is
Sometimes it's no more than showing up when needed, "being there" for someone
Authenticity has to do with union with God... in Jesus, it was to do the will of Him that sent him, and to finish His work, and so it is with all those who have touched my life
one-on-one and not from a pulpit
heart to serve, to help and to genuinely "love your neighbor as yourself".
may have a "lead pastor" but the pastor has been really good at finding the strengths and longsuits of those in the church and fostered those abilities to the point where the gifted people flourish and love doing what they do best thereby touching the lives of those who are in need of that particular gift.
A good minister should want people in his church who are better than he is at things and who can take over when/if/should he not be able to function.
They do it because they are good at it; they love people and feel it's the least they can do.
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George Aar
Well, I think a really big-screen plasma TV, a refrigerated keg cooler, and maybe some Barcaloungers would be a big improvement.
No, I never have been very spurtchul...
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socks
More -
a true leader leads by example not calling myself a real leader
genuinely gifted (and I dont mean that in some hokey sense)....
spend alot more time just doing the right thing as a natural course of their life than talking about it or worse yet dictating to you how to better your life..
unassuming, down to earth, and easily approachable
the person who can recognize and detect the strong and weak areas in people life and mission. and take the necesary action to direct each to become the best they can be .
the leader is the one who can be the one who works with what they got recognize it for what it is and make it good for all involved!
a true "born leader basicly just enjoys people and desires for them to grow and be "good" at what they do in an area... and the side effect is the leaders are then respected and loved and turn into "leaders".
we all lead really
maybe it is to make a difference.
I Timothy 3:
V2(A)An overseer, then, must be above reproach, (B)the husband (this would include fidelity, imo) of one wife, ©temperate, prudent, respectable, (D)hospitable, (E)able to teach,
3(F)not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, (G)free from the love of money.
4He must be one who (H)manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity. (My take in that last phrase, regarding dignity, would exclude tyranny/dictatorship).
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socks
Practical Input -
a really big-screen plasma TV, a refrigerated keg cooler, and maybe some Barcaloungers would be a big improvement.
You'd like the church we go to, when we do. They put in seats that are kind of like theater seats, with little cup holders. There's a pretty nifty cafe' set up in the back side room of the church where you come in and they serve coffee. They have doughnuts and fruit, so every service is kind of a brunch deal before hand and after, and then most of the people that drink coffee bring it to their seats for the service. I wish I still drank coffee regularly, it seems a practical way to do it. The services are structured but pretty informal by most standards. It's an open opportunity to come in and enjoy the whole deal without having to conform to any great extent to expecations which the average person showing up wouldn't know anyway. Very causal, rather civilized even.
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socks
There's definitely some common themes thus far. Thanks for all of your thoughts, there's a lot to consider here.
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excathedra
thank you
did anyone mention humility
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ex10
I would think faithfulness and steadfastness would be important in leadership. There's a wisdom that comes with experience, and sticking with things. Also, willingness to sacrifice for the good of others would be high on my list.
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Ham
I wonder if any modern churches offer a "bring your pet" Sunday..
Maybe it's asking too much. Probably be mayhem..
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Belle
Actually..... there IS!
Near me, anyway. And, it's not mayhem. It's really cool, even when some of the dogs sing along with the music. ^_^
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excathedra
hey sisex
faithfulness and steadfastness to what or whom ?
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