Actually, you gave me the idea Bumpy. Or at least part of it. Well, you may share part of the responsibility.
You said.. something like.. "do we just outlaw them and give them all the bums rush, mine fuhrer?"
I thought "naw.. just do a little "procedure".. let them live out their remaining organizational days in peace, umm, or something.. no more stray offshoots roaming the streets..
They usually had informal sex/family classes were speakers would talk about their marriages or how to have a good marriage. No leaflets or anything. You must take notes. I have them buried around here somewhere.
Yeah - it was the informal sex part of it that was the most problematic.
...On this thread we've now got Oakspear admitting he feels entitled to bring up my posts as clout any time he feels like it,...
Clout? What do you mean? Here's what I said:
Johniam:
I for one am not going to attempt to convince you that you're wrong about "clocking" women who verbally get on your nerves. You've made up your mind. You've made it clear beyond any possibility of misunderstanding what your position is.
However, I see nothing wrong with anyone on this board bringing it up. Heck, I'll bring it up if I feel so inclined.
You said what you said, you're obviously not ashamed of what you said, so what's the problem?
You and I disagree on most things on this board, not all, but most. I won't bring up your opinion about the appropriateness of "clocking" people, specifically women, if it has nothing to do with what you're talking about, but will if I believe that it is relevant.
Danny has posted that he was born in '55 and that he has a 36 year old daughter. That means he got someone pregnant when he was 15. Not really a big deal in and of itself, but how much soap opera material could I infer from that? How many lewd scenerios could I speculate just from that small window of info? This place isn't going to be much fun anymore if too many posters do what he did.
John
Have you ever heard of the word adoption?
johniam... I believe this is the part where you apologize... and hopefully learn something from it (this time).
(provided by National Coalition Against Domestic Violence)
Look over the following questions. Think about how you are being treated and how you treat your partner. Remember, when one person scares, hurts or continually puts down the other person, it's abuse.
Does your partner…
____ Embarrass or make fun of you in front of your friends or family?
____ Put down your accomplishments or goals?
____ Make you feel like you are unable to make decisions?
____ Use intimidation or threats to gain compliance?
____ Tell you that you are nothing without them?
____ Treat you roughly - grab, push, pinch, shove or hit you?
____ Call you several times a night or show up to make sure you are where you said you would be?
____ Use drugs or alcohol as an excuse for saying hurtful things or abusing you?
____ Blame you for how they feel or act?
____ Pressure you sexually for things you aren't ready for?
____ Make you feel like there "is no way out" of the relationship?
____ Prevent you from doing things you want - like spending time with your friends or family?
____ Try to keep you from leaving after a fight or leave you somewhere after a fight to "teach you a lesson"?
Do you…
____ Sometimes feel scared of how your partner will act?
____ Constantly make excuses to other people for your partner's behavior?
____ Believe that you can help your partner change if only you changed something about yourself?
____ Try not to do anything that would cause conflict or make your partner angry?
____ Always do what your partner wants you to do instead of what you want?
____ Stay with you partner because you are afraid of what your partner would do if you broke-up?
If any of these are happening in your relationship, talk to someone. Without some help, the abuse will continue.
(Adapted from Reading and Teaching Teens to Stop Violence, Nebraska Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault Coalition, Lincoln, NE).
quote: Clout? What do you mean? Here's what I said:
Let's see. I want to shut Johniam up and I can't think of any way to do it according to THIS thread, so...HEY! I'll bring up something from a 2 1/2 year old thread that has nothing to do with this thread. Yeah, THAT'll shut him up.
No it won't.
quote: John
Have you ever heard of the word adoption?
quote: johniam... I believe this is the part where you apologize... and hopefully learn something from it (this time).
You guys are really missing my whole point. I couldn't care less about Danny's daughter or how she became his daughter or whatever; I'm saying how does it feel when someone takes info YOU posted on here and twists it into something unflattering? That's what Danny did and apparently he STILL doesn't get it.
quote: Clout? What do you mean? Here's what I said:
Let's see. I want to shut Johniam up and I can't think of any way to do it according to THIS thread, so...HEY! I'll bring up something from a 2 1/2 year old thread that has nothing to do with this thread. Yeah, THAT'll shut him up.
No it won't.
No, I don't want to shut you up. Letting you talk is often the easiest way to show how weak and illogical your arguments usually are. Shutting you up is the last thing that I want to do.
You guys are really missing my whole point. I couldn't care less about Danny's daughter or how she became his daughter or whatever; I'm saying how does it feel when someone takes info YOU posted on here and twists it into something unflattering? That's what Danny did and apparently he STILL doesn't get it.
No one needs to twist what you say - I've seen no twisting. What you say is twisted enough on it's own.
I guessed you missed the ugly part I responded to. Let me remind you
Oh, that's right, I forgot....
if it wasn't in a class or in print, it never happened in twi, how silly of me....
I love this new posting style here bait the poster then when they respond they are the bad one.
An old bull fighter once said if you don't want the bull then don't wave the red flag for him to come.
I was taught this during different womens advances in different states. Some of this was covered during pre marriage counceling with our lc.
I do not know if the teachings were more intense because I was marrying corpes and was only app myself....that I took it more seriously because of that.
I know that my spouse was under tremendous pressure to *keep me in line* so to speak...because in marrying me...he was putting his reputation on the line.
Not that he cared....I was the one terrified of bringing him shame, of reflecting badly on his spirituality. I never wanted him to be sorry that he chose me instead of a corpes woman.\
Now Dove, think about it....you not being a woman, and not being corpes, is it really any suprise that you wouldn`t be aware of what was taught at womens advances or in one on one private marriage sessions between individual couples and lc`s....or when a woman was being groomed to be a corpes man`s wife....???
It would be tempting to dismiss my account as exaggerated or as an isolated instance....except there seems to be others here who were held to the same rediculous standard.
Please don`t close your ears and heart to the horror that this standard created for women who were required to submit to horrible abuse with no recourse because we were taught that God gave that man ultimate and total authority over every decision in our lives.
To leave....for any reason would be to lose God`s hand of protection and blessing over ourselves and our children. Most of us could not face life without God.
Funny enough....it was this teaching....it was this standard that kept me at mark`s side when exiting twi....I was bitterly disapointed and angry that he would leave the ministry that taught us God`s word, and had I thought that there was any way for me to leave him and remain in God`s will, I would have done it in a heart beat and stayed with the ministry.
Rascal I have been to my share of couples advances as well ,so did my wife attend womens advances,marrying into the Corps I went through the grill as well. I never once heard such a doctrine propounded. I don't dismiss this as a isolated instance, I do notice in all of the people I know from all over the country the only place this seems to be the opinion - is here. Interesting other women do not share that opinion I find that telling coming from people that only want to post dailly of some complaint about The Way.
You do realize that different regions did have different things they said to different people? I find other people's accounts are often not like mine - but I don't doubt they were told such things.
There were a bunch of people coming in from different walks of life and different religions... so they brought their crap with them.
Some of us got the "if your husband beats you - it's your fault" lecture. I didn't get this one.
Some of us got the "you have to be submissive lecture - but your husband should be nice" lecture. I got this one.
And your wife and friends probably got the "good/decent" lecture were they weren't told your husband is the god in your life.
For example:
I was told by some people that abortion was okay - here are some scriptures.
I was told by another fellowship coordinator that abortion was bad.
Just depends on the person... and the person teaching.
Nero the things you posted and the ones below are not the same there is a big difference between a biblical concept and teaching abuse. Being submissive is not equal to abuse. I'm submissive to my boss but not abuse. In fact it can be a great relationship where ideas are sought and exchanged. sometimes the submitter has the better idea, none the less the boss has the final say.
Guys - treat your wives well and they'll be good for you. They didn't go into detail about what they should do to be nice. They said to listen to your wife - but you had the final say.
Chicks - God > Your Husband > Your kids > You. Be submissive to your husband. And I quote: "Some women never are submissive enough to be married. If you cannot submit to a husband, then you shouldn't get married ever." Yes... taught that. I was pretty blinded by twi - but that never jived with me. Which was why I never wanted to marry anyone who was taught such things. Ugh.
All - Don't get married to anyone outside TWI - it just makes things harder if you don't agree on everything.
I remember being taught in twi, that if my husband ever hit me ...it was my fault....that if it ever occured, I should have never pushed him that far.
I remember being taught that if he ever committed adultery, it would have been my fault for not being sexy enough, appealing enough, inventive enough to hold his attention.
I remember believing this stuff....that it was up to me to be sharp enough to ward this stuff off.
If there was alcohol or abuse issues, squandered money issues....it was up to me to love him more, to pray for him more, but other than that I had no say so, no recourse, was not permitted any input.
This was taught as standard marriage conduct. This was what I was taught was required of a virtuous woman.
You do realize that different regions did have different things they said to different people? I find other people's accounts are often not like mine - but I don't doubt they were told such things.
There were a bunch of people coming in from different walks of life and different religions... so they brought their crap with them.
Some of us got the "if your husband beats you - it's your fault" lecture. I didn't get this one.
Some of us got the "you have to be submissive lecture - but your husband should be nice" lecture. I got this one.
And your wife and friends probably got the "good/decent" lecture were they weren't told your husband is the god in your life.
For example:
I was told by some people that abortion was okay - here are some scriptures.
I was told by another fellowship coordinator that abortion was bad.
Just depends on the person... and the person teaching.
First different regions are just that, peoples opinions not the same as Way doctrine from The Way International just because one was involved with the way does not mean they always spoke on their behalf. There were thousands of people do you really expect me to believe that they could monitor and control what everyone said? Not the same as way doctrine
Second no matter the regions ,pick one? I still have yet to find someone other than those in the GreaseSpot region that seem to remember this doctrine. I find that interesting...........
I was taught by a woman who was a graduate of the WC and a BC who was a graduate of the WC that if ANYTHING untoward happened to my husband, my son, or myself, it was because I was not submitting myself sufficiently to my husband. This included dismissal from the FWC due to our son being a rebellious child, husband having a hard time finding work, and my being diagnosed as an insulin dependent diabetic. All of this, without exception, was my fault because I was not sufficiently meek, humble, submissive and obedient. I'm sure some of you will strongly agree with this scenario; however, guess who strongly DISAGREED? MY HUSBAND, THAT'S WHO!!! He thought it was the stupidest thing he'd ever heard. I was and have been and still am doing my best to be the wife Prov. 31:10-31 describes. (That description, incidentally, was twisted by TWI into unrecognizable legalism.) I mean, WHY is the wife doing these things? Because she loves God, loves her husband, loves her kids, loves her home. If it's not out of love and respect it's not worth it. And it is a given that the husband is a wonderful man. One "good clocking" and the deal's off.
And I will tell you something else. I never got to know the BC very well, but the 6th WC grad ran her household and her husband's life with a sweet, submissive smile and an iron fist. This guy actually told me privately some things that indicated he wasn't very happy.
None of the posters who are in favor of a man beating the crap out of a woman have shown me book, chapter, and verse. I think any man who would do so is seriously lacking in coping skills, self-esteem, and the milk of human kindness.
A while back something was bothering me and I was upset and very talkative and persistent about it; some might even call it nagging. My husband was not happy about this after a few days/weeks of my distress, and heartily wished I would stop talking about it. I did, of my own free will, so he would be at peace. Looking back, I realize this was the kind of situation JohnIam describes, in which he would believe I needed and deserved a good clocking, maybe a couple black eyes, a broken nose, and some smashed teeth?
But my husband didn't do that. He just patiently waiting for me to get ahold of myself. Wonder why? Could it be because he loves God, he loves me, and he loves himself?
Oh, PS: The timeline for the submissive stuff I was taught was 1993-96. It was a big whoopty-do at the time and even earlier, when LCM was blaming wives for taking their husbands out of the ministry.
Second no matter the regions ,pick one? I still have yet to find someone other than those in the GreaseSpot region that seem to remember this doctrine. I find that interesting...........
ummm... could that be because this is the most prominent ex-way site? ...could that be because others are still bound by fear of reprisal should they speak up?
It's 'of no profit' to waste time with you and the other veepee worshipers!
Couples advances were very different than the womens advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
You say that only here at grease spot have you read of people portraying a different image of the twi than you personally viewed.
Could it be that God is introducing you to a whole different set of people with different experiences than you have had prior contact with? Could it be he is working in people to present a different side of the story? A different pov that gives a more complete picture of what happened in twi and why?
Could it be an opportunity to be moved by compassion for those who suffered...rather than further recriminations and nastiness?
Dove, I am as real as any other person that you have talked to. No we have not met in the flesh...but we have spoken on the phone. We know and love the same people. They would be more than willing to vouch for my veracity , IF< IF< IF, if you REALLY cared.
The thing is...you don`t WANT what I say to be true...it is too damaging to your beliefs. You have to then some how invalidate what I say in order to live with your perceptions...in order to hold to your current belief....I have to be invalidated...I am a liar or I exaggerate or it never happened.
Do you know that God probably cares JUST as much for me as he does those that you talk to in the flesh? That he works in my life?
How do you think it makes folks feel when you call us liars? When you insist that our accounts never happened?
It sucks Dove, yet somehow you seem to think because I am typing words with my fingers instead of speaking them out of my mouth in a face to face situation....that it is ok to be mean....to lead the gang banging.
Your words whether typed or spoken hurt, yet by the doctrine that you hold as truth....these actions are ok and justifiable.
Love God and love your neighbor friend, if what you do is not lining up with that then it is time to examine ourselves as Christians :(
Oh, WD, want to change the subject and draw some heat off of John? Ok, I'll bite.
I guessed you missed the ugly part I responded to. Let me remind you
"Oh, that's right, I forgot....
if it wasn't in a class or in print, it never happened in twi, how silly of me....
I love this new posting style here bait the poster then when they respond they are the bad one.
An old bull fighter once said if you don't want the bull then don't wave the red flag for him to come.
Don't pretend to be an injured party, it's a poor fit.
Here's a quick recap to what happened:
rascal said
I remember being taught in twi, that if my husband ever hit me ...it was my fault....that if it ever occured, I should have never pushed him that far.
I remember being taught that if he ever committed adultery, it would have been my fault for not being sexy enough, appealing enough, inventive enough to hold his attention.
I remember believing this stuff....that it was up to me to be sharp enough to ward this stuff off.
If there was alcohol or abuse issues, squandered money issues....it was up to me to love him more, to pray for him more, but other than that I had no say so, no recourse, was not permitted any input.
This was taught as standard marriage conduct. This was what I was taught was required of a virtuous woman.
I wanted to be a virtuous woman, so I accepted whatever mistreatment was administered by tc, spouse, anyone...meekly and with humility, no matter how unwarranted, how unfair with the determination that I would try my hardest to do better.
We were taught this in twi, and it became part of our thinking process, to the point that I never ever questioned it`s validity.
YOU used the OLD posting style-from all the way back to waydale, even, to say
I was just wondering just when and where this was taught. I seem to have missed that class
Which was used, as of old, to take someone's personal testimony, and, instead of saying
"I wasn't in the room when it was taught," you said "I wasn't taught this-therefore it wasn't taught and you're a liar".
OLD posting style. Don't pretend it's not what you were saying.
I replied to YOUR post with
A number of places, this came up here and there, usually NOT during the teachings, but during other activities and "down-time."
Usually, it came up TO A WOMAN, since it was about what they expected HER to do. Since you're a guy, it's less likely you
would get this lecture. The lecture you would get would be about making sure your wife knew who was boss, and about
making all the decisions.
Oh, that's right, I forgot....
if it wasn't in a class or in print, it never happened in twi, how silly of me.... <_<
That was a reminder that-as has come up a lot-different people were told different things in twi, and not everyone's
experience was identical. Just as some things you were taught were supposedly close to perfect, others have
reported things they were taught that were far from perfect. There's room for both of you to tell the truth and say
different things.
Your reply?
Right, Another undocumented doctrine Of course how convenient, I should have known...........
Repeating you're calling it a lie-without saying the WORD "lie", of course...
potato spoke up, as someone ELSE who heard this....
the women's sessions at couples advances consisted of those types of teachings, invariably. they were usually subtle, but always soul-stealing. wow training was another place I heard it, from B. Gr**n himself, a special confrontation just for me, but in front of a small group of outgoing wows. and strangely enough, the wow field was the first place my ex raised his fist to me.
when I left my ex, it was because of lying and violence, and M@rk W@11@ce still tried to talk me into staying married because I'd "regret it".
And rascal replied
Dove, that was kind of ugly.
I was taught this during different womens advances in different states. Some of this was covered during pre marriage counceling with our lc.
I do not know if the teachings were more intense because I was marrying corpes and was only app myself....that I took it more seriously because of that.
I know that my spouse was under tremendous pressure to *keep me in line* so to speak...because in marrying me...he was putting his reputation on the line.
Not that he cared....I was the one terrified of bringing him shame, of reflecting badly on his spirituality. I never wanted him to be sorry that he chose me instead of a corpes woman.\
Now Dove, think about it....you not being a woman, and not being corpes, is it really any suprise that you wouldn`t be aware of what was taught at womens advances or in one on one private marriage sessions between individual couples and lc`s....or when a woman was being groomed to be a corpes man`s wife....???
It would be tempting to dismiss my account as exaggerated or as an isolated instance....except there seems to be others here who were held to the same rediculous standard.
Please don`t close your ears and heart to the horror that this standard created for women who were required to submit to horrible abuse with no recourse because we were taught that God gave that man ultimate and total authority over every decision in our lives.
To leave....for any reason would be to lose God`s hand of protection and blessing over ourselves and our children. Most of us could not face life without God.
Funny enough....it was this teaching....it was this standard that kept me at mark`s side when exiting twi....I was bitterly disapointed and angry that he would leave the ministry that taught us God`s word, and had I thought that there was any way for me to leave him and remain in God`s will, I would have done it in a heart beat and stayed with the ministry.
As did Nero.
I don't remember ever remember getting pamphlets or note pages handed to me about how to treat my husband. I think if anyone sent out an official document stating literally all of the junk they ever taught us there would be more eyebrows raised.
A few things I was taught:
Guys - treat your wives well and they'll be good for you. They didn't go into detail about what they should do to be nice. They said to listen to your wife - but you had the final say.
Chicks - God > Your Husband > Your kids > You. Be submissive to your husband. And I quote: "Some women never are submissive enough to be married. If you cannot submit to a husband, then you shouldn't get married ever." Yes... taught that. I was pretty blinded by twi - but that never jived with me. Which was why I never wanted to marry anyone who was taught such things. Ugh.
All - Don't get married to anyone outside TWI - it just makes things harder if you don't agree on everything.
They usually had informal sex/family classes were speakers would talk about their marriages or how to have a good marriage. No leaflets or anything. You must take notes. I have them buried around here somewhere.
Since you can't take our word for it. What kind of documentation do you need? Notes with a date in a sealed envelope? Or a laundry list of wifey doctrine with the TWI president's signature on it? I'm not MA so I might be able to get it. XP
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Ham
Actually, you gave me the idea Bumpy. Or at least part of it. Well, you may share part of the responsibility.
You said.. something like.. "do we just outlaw them and give them all the bums rush, mine fuhrer?"
I thought "naw.. just do a little "procedure".. let them live out their remaining organizational days in peace, umm, or something.. no more stray offshoots roaming the streets..
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chockfull
sweet. that so needs to become my avatar.
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Danny
John
Have you ever heard of the word adoption?
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chockfull
Yeah - it was the informal sex part of it that was the most problematic.
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Oakspear
You said what you said, you're obviously not ashamed of what you said, so what's the problem?
You and I disagree on most things on this board, not all, but most. I won't bring up your opinion about the appropriateness of "clocking" people, specifically women, if it has nothing to do with what you're talking about, but will if I believe that it is relevant.
Yes, I feel "entitled" to do that.
Any problem with that John?
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Tom Strange
johniam... I believe this is the part where you apologize... and hopefully learn something from it (this time).
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Oakspear
I await with bated breath the rationalization and justification.
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potato
I'm popping some corn now. beer, anyone??
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WordWolf
Of course,
if it's not in writing, nobody was ever told it, no matter how many GSC'ers insist they were told EXACTLY THAT
by corps, LC and so on.
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Ham
[
hey, I'll take one, or two..
:)
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cman
AM I BEING ABUSED?
CHECKLIST
(provided by National Coalition Against Domestic Violence)
Look over the following questions. Think about how you are being treated and how you treat your partner. Remember, when one person scares, hurts or continually puts down the other person, it's abuse.
Does your partner…
____ Embarrass or make fun of you in front of your friends or family?
____ Put down your accomplishments or goals?
____ Make you feel like you are unable to make decisions?
____ Use intimidation or threats to gain compliance?
____ Tell you that you are nothing without them?
____ Treat you roughly - grab, push, pinch, shove or hit you?
____ Call you several times a night or show up to make sure you are where you said you would be?
____ Use drugs or alcohol as an excuse for saying hurtful things or abusing you?
____ Blame you for how they feel or act?
____ Pressure you sexually for things you aren't ready for?
____ Make you feel like there "is no way out" of the relationship?
____ Prevent you from doing things you want - like spending time with your friends or family?
____ Try to keep you from leaving after a fight or leave you somewhere after a fight to "teach you a lesson"?
Do you…
____ Sometimes feel scared of how your partner will act?
____ Constantly make excuses to other people for your partner's behavior?
____ Believe that you can help your partner change if only you changed something about yourself?
____ Try not to do anything that would cause conflict or make your partner angry?
____ Always do what your partner wants you to do instead of what you want?
____ Stay with you partner because you are afraid of what your partner would do if you broke-up?
If any of these are happening in your relationship, talk to someone. Without some help, the abuse will continue.
(Adapted from Reading and Teaching Teens to Stop Violence, Nebraska Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault Coalition, Lincoln, NE).
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johniam
quote: Clout? What do you mean? Here's what I said:
Let's see. I want to shut Johniam up and I can't think of any way to do it according to THIS thread, so...HEY! I'll bring up something from a 2 1/2 year old thread that has nothing to do with this thread. Yeah, THAT'll shut him up.
No it won't.
quote: John
Have you ever heard of the word adoption?
quote: johniam... I believe this is the part where you apologize... and hopefully learn something from it (this time).
You guys are really missing my whole point. I couldn't care less about Danny's daughter or how she became his daughter or whatever; I'm saying how does it feel when someone takes info YOU posted on here and twists it into something unflattering? That's what Danny did and apparently he STILL doesn't get it.
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Oakspear
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Nero
No one needs to twist what you say - I've seen no twisting. What you say is twisted enough on it's own.
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Danny
John
I got what I wanted out of you.
You showed your true color.
Keep talking it will bolster your position.
The love of God and for his people is
a great witness. Keep up the great work.
Peace
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WhiteDove
I love this new posting style here bait the poster then when they respond they are the bad one.
An old bull fighter once said if you don't want the bull then don't wave the red flag for him to come.
Rascal I have been to my share of couples advances as well ,so did my wife attend womens advances,marrying into the Corps I went through the grill as well. I never once heard such a doctrine propounded. I don't dismiss this as a isolated instance, I do notice in all of the people I know from all over the country the only place this seems to be the opinion - is here. Interesting other women do not share that opinion I find that telling coming from people that only want to post dailly of some complaint about The Way.
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Nero
You do realize that different regions did have different things they said to different people? I find other people's accounts are often not like mine - but I don't doubt they were told such things.
There were a bunch of people coming in from different walks of life and different religions... so they brought their crap with them.
Some of us got the "if your husband beats you - it's your fault" lecture. I didn't get this one.
Some of us got the "you have to be submissive lecture - but your husband should be nice" lecture. I got this one.
And your wife and friends probably got the "good/decent" lecture were they weren't told your husband is the god in your life.
For example:
I was told by some people that abortion was okay - here are some scriptures.
I was told by another fellowship coordinator that abortion was bad.
Just depends on the person... and the person teaching.
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WhiteDove
Nero the things you posted and the ones below are not the same there is a big difference between a biblical concept and teaching abuse. Being submissive is not equal to abuse. I'm submissive to my boss but not abuse. In fact it can be a great relationship where ideas are sought and exchanged. sometimes the submitter has the better idea, none the less the boss has the final say.
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WhiteDove
First different regions are just that, peoples opinions not the same as Way doctrine from The Way International just because one was involved with the way does not mean they always spoke on their behalf. There were thousands of people do you really expect me to believe that they could monitor and control what everyone said? Not the same as way doctrine
Second no matter the regions ,pick one? I still have yet to find someone other than those in the GreaseSpot region that seem to remember this doctrine. I find that interesting...........
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Watered Garden
I was taught by a woman who was a graduate of the WC and a BC who was a graduate of the WC that if ANYTHING untoward happened to my husband, my son, or myself, it was because I was not submitting myself sufficiently to my husband. This included dismissal from the FWC due to our son being a rebellious child, husband having a hard time finding work, and my being diagnosed as an insulin dependent diabetic. All of this, without exception, was my fault because I was not sufficiently meek, humble, submissive and obedient. I'm sure some of you will strongly agree with this scenario; however, guess who strongly DISAGREED? MY HUSBAND, THAT'S WHO!!! He thought it was the stupidest thing he'd ever heard. I was and have been and still am doing my best to be the wife Prov. 31:10-31 describes. (That description, incidentally, was twisted by TWI into unrecognizable legalism.) I mean, WHY is the wife doing these things? Because she loves God, loves her husband, loves her kids, loves her home. If it's not out of love and respect it's not worth it. And it is a given that the husband is a wonderful man. One "good clocking" and the deal's off.
And I will tell you something else. I never got to know the BC very well, but the 6th WC grad ran her household and her husband's life with a sweet, submissive smile and an iron fist. This guy actually told me privately some things that indicated he wasn't very happy.
None of the posters who are in favor of a man beating the crap out of a woman have shown me book, chapter, and verse. I think any man who would do so is seriously lacking in coping skills, self-esteem, and the milk of human kindness.
A while back something was bothering me and I was upset and very talkative and persistent about it; some might even call it nagging. My husband was not happy about this after a few days/weeks of my distress, and heartily wished I would stop talking about it. I did, of my own free will, so he would be at peace. Looking back, I realize this was the kind of situation JohnIam describes, in which he would believe I needed and deserved a good clocking, maybe a couple black eyes, a broken nose, and some smashed teeth?
But my husband didn't do that. He just patiently waiting for me to get ahold of myself. Wonder why? Could it be because he loves God, he loves me, and he loves himself?
Oh, PS: The timeline for the submissive stuff I was taught was 1993-96. It was a big whoopty-do at the time and even earlier, when LCM was blaming wives for taking their husbands out of the ministry.
WG
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Nero
Oh well, I tried. *shrug* Believe what you like - no skin off my nose.
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Tom Strange
ummm... could that be because this is the most prominent ex-way site? ...could that be because others are still bound by fear of reprisal should they speak up?
It's 'of no profit' to waste time with you and the other veepee worshipers!
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rascal
Dove,
Couples advances were very different than the womens advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
You say that only here at grease spot have you read of people portraying a different image of the twi than you personally viewed.
Could it be that God is introducing you to a whole different set of people with different experiences than you have had prior contact with? Could it be he is working in people to present a different side of the story? A different pov that gives a more complete picture of what happened in twi and why?
Could it be an opportunity to be moved by compassion for those who suffered...rather than further recriminations and nastiness?
Dove, I am as real as any other person that you have talked to. No we have not met in the flesh...but we have spoken on the phone. We know and love the same people. They would be more than willing to vouch for my veracity , IF< IF< IF, if you REALLY cared.
The thing is...you don`t WANT what I say to be true...it is too damaging to your beliefs. You have to then some how invalidate what I say in order to live with your perceptions...in order to hold to your current belief....I have to be invalidated...I am a liar or I exaggerate or it never happened.
Do you know that God probably cares JUST as much for me as he does those that you talk to in the flesh? That he works in my life?
How do you think it makes folks feel when you call us liars? When you insist that our accounts never happened?
It sucks Dove, yet somehow you seem to think because I am typing words with my fingers instead of speaking them out of my mouth in a face to face situation....that it is ok to be mean....to lead the gang banging.
Your words whether typed or spoken hurt, yet by the doctrine that you hold as truth....these actions are ok and justifiable.
Love God and love your neighbor friend, if what you do is not lining up with that then it is time to examine ourselves as Christians :(
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WordWolf
Oh, WD, want to change the subject and draw some heat off of John? Ok, I'll bite.
Don't pretend to be an injured party, it's a poor fit.
Here's a quick recap to what happened:
rascal said
YOU used the OLD posting style-from all the way back to waydale, even, to say
Which was used, as of old, to take someone's personal testimony, and, instead of saying
"I wasn't in the room when it was taught," you said "I wasn't taught this-therefore it wasn't taught and you're a liar".
OLD posting style. Don't pretend it's not what you were saying.
I replied to YOUR post with
That was a reminder that-as has come up a lot-different people were told different things in twi, and not everyone's
experience was identical. Just as some things you were taught were supposedly close to perfect, others have
reported things they were taught that were far from perfect. There's room for both of you to tell the truth and say
different things.
Your reply?
Repeating you're calling it a lie-without saying the WORD "lie", of course...
potato spoke up, as someone ELSE who heard this....
And rascal replied
As did Nero.
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