The thing is....I learned to believe their version....that as a woman, I was emotional, therefor untrustworthy...that my husband would have to be constantly on guard to keep me from dragging us off of the truth because of them....that I must never disagree because even if I was right, God wouldn`t bless me because of disobedience.
I believed that I was untrustworthey....I believed that any abuse was justified...I believed that the man was better than I was....for no other reason than my gender.
It didn`t matter how spiritual, how good, how kind....if you were a woman...you were treated like you were a stupid liability that was to keep their mouths shut and their husband serviced.
Well, let's suppose some eyewitnesses saw someone get mowed down by a car and killed. These same eyewitnesses go to court, give their testimony, and the driver of the car is found guilty and goes to jail. Their eyewitness accounts are entered into the court record. Some 2,000 years later someone with the initials WD (the real name is being withheld) comes along and says, "Wait. I think that verdict should be overthrown. How do I know it's true?" Does this person get the time of day? Not in my book. Not in today's courts. How could this person possibly even believe what the Bible says, like Jesus was raised from the dead? We don't have any pictures. No transcript either, unless you are taking the word of some disciples .... So, what's to say they weren't lying?
irisheyes, very good point! unlike the people here, the writers of the new testament all knew each other, so their story is more suspect IMO. too much opportunity to fabricate consistent details. who's to say they just didn't make up the legend of Jesus to start their own religion? it's not on film. there are no documents from coroners or medical experts. just a bunch of stories from a bunch of guys who say they hung out with him, or who joined the religion later on.
No White Dove, I never heard anyone in any official capacity in a videotaped class or on the podium teaching at an official TWI "advance" or "class" or anything else say, "Yea, verily, and of an absolute certainty, my people, if thy wife offend thee she must be vigorously scourged, thrashed, whipped and beaten into submission." Of course no one would actually formally TEACH that. They could be held liable. Just like when we were told by WC to take our son into the North Cascades, walk him up to where no one could heard his screams, and take turns hitting him over the head with a 2 x 4 until he knew that he would die if he ever disrespected us again. Those words were not published or recorded. No one wants to be named in a court case and have TWI"s precious name dragged through the mud.
When I was diagnosed with IDDM I was sleeping in a tent at the ROA. This same man who wanted my child beaten reproved me for having IDDM and being so sick, because "one more night in that tent and you would have died, AND THAT WOULD HAVE MADE THE MINISTRY LOOK BAD!" Not one word of concern, not one "gee, I wish you'd come to me and let me help you find a doctor before things got so bad, honey." I would have made the ministry look bad. That was what mattered.
The point: Bubbakins, there was a lot of unofficially official doctrine spoken privily and in small groups that was accepted as gospel. Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
You sound a lot like the man I described above, WD. No heart for people. Everyone on this forum is human. Everyone's cry of pain and outrage is different, yet the same. I'm so sorry you can't hear those cries and respond with a heart of love.
And one more thing: The marriage relationship described in the Scripture is very different from TWI's spin on it.
Well that's an easy one but probably a foreign concept to you. Integrity, Truth Despite the problems in/with The Way they deserve to be represented with honesty and truth not speculation,fuzzy memories, and guesses.
the only person offering speculation, fuzzy memories and guesses here WD is you. (but you already know that don't you?
I have no problem with proven faults just I wannna say something here ones that have no logical basis for a case. here is why for anyone to be effective in proving their point or case for helping anyone to leave the site and information must be creditable.
yeah... you do have a problem, the only way for someone to 'prove' anything to you is to provide filmed evidence... otherwise, you say it didn't happen.
If it is not it is easy to make a case why what they say about GreaseSpot is true. One can simply point to any post and say see that is untrue they are just liars like we told you. Simple enough?
yes, they can... just like you always do.
On the other hand if the information is honest truthful and documentable then they have no recourse now do they?
sure they do... they can just call the people liars like you do.
Tell me WD, if none of this ever happened, if TWI and it's leaders were as blameless as you ALWAYS proclaim, if it was all the wonderland of your dreams... why aren't you still there?
You really don't need to rejoin them I guess... because you haven't really left them or the way they treat people.
You weren`t a woman, you weren`t corpes, you weren`t a wow....For heavens sake, O don`t think that you ever even left your home state. How in the WORLD could you possibly by any wildest stretch of the imagination be an authority on ministry matters???
Are these things true WD? you're not a woman? you weren't in the corps? you didn't go WOW? you never lived anywhere but Kansas while in TWI?
If these things are true... how in the world do you think you are qualified to speak on what happened to other people who were corps, who were WOW, who did live in lots of different parts of the country while in TWI? How can you honestly (watch out, slanted letters!) sit back throwing all of the stones of denial at folks?
Dove be honest for once please...YOU weren`t there in that limb office...YOU weren`t at the womens advances...YOU weren`t at the private marriage counceling sessions....The only one voicing rediculously unsubstantiated opinions here is YOU!!
Are these things true WD? You weren't at that limb office? you weren't at the women's advances? you weren't at the private marriage counselling sessions?
If we were in a court of law, as you're so fond of saying (watch out, more slanted letters!), the judge would tell you to shut up and only speak to what YOU know! (more slanted letters!)
I think a lot of the atrocity in the marriage stuff happened because of the philandering of VPW and LCM. Other leaders mimic'd a certain disdain for and abuse towards women. To be fair, different places I lived were better in that respect, with WC leaders treating wives well and not promulgating an environment of abuse. Actually some of the more major Way problems IMO were due to people mimicing the sermons they saw rather than the actual supported teaching. Anyway, there's my .02.
Fascinating how folks like Johniam and his supporters go thru a *helluva* lot of denial spewing the crap they do, ... and actually feel that they are right in doing so. And the (self inflicted) near impossible difficulty it would take for them to apologize for their abusive verbal 'clocking' of those who dare challenge them re: these topics.
Where is the joy? Where is the peace of 'God'? Where is the Power to Live a More Than Abundant Life? ... You know, all the promises that were to supposedly go along with TWI and the PFAL class?
Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
Thanks you have answered my question it was not said, but some may have made a guess at what they meant and now that assumption has become, yes they said that . In reallity they did not. My point exactly what some seem to remember mostly was not, but rather something they asumed that someone was saying. Prime example
Ephesians 5: 22,23,24
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
One could read this verse and someone may assume it means beat your wife. Thats not what it says. I'm not interested in someone's guess or opinion of what they think someone may have said. Like I said not fact......... just opinion.
Fascinating how folks like Johniam and his supporters go thru a *helluva* lot of denial spewing the crap they do, ... and actually feel that they are right in doing so. And the (self inflicted) near impossible difficulty it would take for them to apologize for their abusive verbal 'clocking' of those who dare challenge them re: these topics.
Yep facinating just like posters claiming someone said something but when finally backed into a corner,Their memory gets suddenly clearer, they admit they didn't really hear them say it but thought they implied it Big difference..........
Where is the joy? Where is the peace of 'God'? Where is the Power to Live a More Than Abundant Life? ... You know, all the promises that were to supposedly go along with TWI and the PFAL class?
Did you loose them? I have a few extra that I can loan you............
Tell me WD, if none of this ever happened, if TWI and it's leaders were as blameless as you ALWAYS proclaim, if it was all the wonderland of your dreams... why aren't you still there?
Really Tom and you can document your claim here, show me a post where I said that.......
Or should I just believe you because you are hurting?
Thanks you have answered my question it was not said, but some may have made a guess at what they meant and now that assumption has become, yes they said that . In reallity they did not. My point exactly what some seem to remember mostly was not, but rather something they asumed that someone was saying.
It was more than "assumed".. it was enforced. I saw three "men(?)" bully, threaten and intimidate their wives into silence. What are they gonna do? Leave? Just walk fifteen miles to town, and catch a bus?
Oh.. the one guy is in the phone book.. I won't say his name here. But I wonder how he'd feel with a question about this twenty some years later.. I'd say you probably know him. Or who he is.
"duhhhh, we were just following orders.."
interesting how the past can return to bite someone in the rear.. apparently he can't "believe" big enough to bury it so deep to keep the "devil" from digging it up..
personally, I don't have the inclination. He's probably miserable enough living with himself as it is.
Thanks you have answered my question it was not said, but some may have made a guess at what they meant and now that assumption has become, yes they said that . In reallity they did not. My point exactly what some seem to remember mostly was not, but rather something they asumed that someone was saying. Prime example
WhiteDove you can keep skirting it all you like, you can deny these teachings ever came out of HQ, and continue to claim that because the didn't they were not "official way doctrine." But can you deny that HQ placed people in positions of leadership who did, in fact, teach such things? Do you believe that those in charge at HQ are NOT in any way responsible for who they put in charge on the field?
I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc.
Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower.
Who was backed into a corner and who claimed assumption?
You act like you scored some kind of coup, or made some little point. I have yet to see anybody backed into a corner or change their testimony of what they were taught....
Because it was taught by LC`s at womens advances or LC`s at pre marriage counceling...does not in any way negate the validity of my point.
It`s like you see things entirely different than they have been written.
I remember I was ALSO told that when we were mad (in pre marriage meeting) at each other....we should just have sex....that we couldn`t let the sun go down on our wrath...etc...yadda yadda....submit...yadda yadda....
Anyway, all I know is that it was translated to ....I was expected to have sex no matter HOW ....ed off I was ....and that would make everything ..ok...to NOT do so was to have a hard heart, to be disobedient....lacking in meekness...
I remember being in the middle of a heated argument ...and him deciding THAT was the time.... submitting...hating him...hating God for what I was being required to do...I did it...I completed the act ....but I felt something was being ripped from my soul as I did so. I don`t think it did much for him either, because it only happened the once...lol....marriage advice at it`s finest no doubt.
No this probably wasn`t down in the books as *official* twi doctrine. But obey your leader, obey your husband WAS. So anything that the leader suggested, advised, was tantamount to a command...the dulous din`t ask how high when commanded to jump....etc...
I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc.
Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower.
So did it work? I mean, did you get THE DIIMAND!
What if the wc girl was just a lousy "screw"? What then? Does she still have to go into the kitchen and play housewife??
And wurst case scenerio...what if that little priceless princess...Can't even COOK??
I remember being in the middle of a heated argument ...and him deciding THAT was the time.... submitting...hating him...hating God for what I was being required to do...I did it...I completed the act ....but I felt something was being ripped from my soul as I did so. I don`t think it did much for him either, because it only happened the once...lol....marriage advice at it`s finest no doubt.
Lol...you pasted that before I got a chance to edit it lifted....I considered on second thought that it was probably WAY tmi....oh well...now it it pasted up for posterity for all to read :)
All laughter aside...it was a long hard haul to salvage our marriage from the teachings of twi. I mean we walked away from twi...but it was another 5 to 10 years before we started tossing out the damaging doctrines.
It took a lot of hard work and deciding that nothing we were taught was of much value....We had to start over fresh....
Okay, I'm gonna have to quit posting on this forum because WD keeps lifting one sentence out of my posts, twisting its meaning, taking it out of context, and using it against everyone. S/he's so good at twisting and misinterpreting stuff for personal benefit I wonder if it isn't really LCM we're writing with!
WG, most of us know what WD is up to. It's bloody easy to answer one sentence that isn't questioning what you are doing, but what you think might help you make a point. In all honesty, it does help make a point--that being WD has no idea what being backed into a corner really means, among other things ....
WhiteDove you can keep skirting it all you like, you can deny these teachings ever came out of HQ, and continue to claim that because the didn't they were not "official way doctrine." But can you deny that HQ placed people in positions of leadership who did, in fact, teach such things? Do you believe that those in charge at HQ are NOT in any way responsible for who they put in charge on the field?
I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc.
Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower.
I heard this taught at a Bridal shower/ Women's Night by Mrs. Limb Coordinator. I'd been married about ten years at that time, and it had never occurred to me to use sex as a bargaining tool. At the time I rationalized the teaching--some women probably weren't married to such nice guys as my husband was...they had to resort to manipulative measures...
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rascal
Wow Mr. Ham, THAT was scarey to read.
It was AWFULL to be a woman in the ministry :(
The thing is....I learned to believe their version....that as a woman, I was emotional, therefor untrustworthy...that my husband would have to be constantly on guard to keep me from dragging us off of the truth because of them....that I must never disagree because even if I was right, God wouldn`t bless me because of disobedience.
I believed that I was untrustworthey....I believed that any abuse was justified...I believed that the man was better than I was....for no other reason than my gender.
It didn`t matter how spiritual, how good, how kind....if you were a woman...you were treated like you were a stupid liability that was to keep their mouths shut and their husband serviced.
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irisheyes
Well, let's suppose some eyewitnesses saw someone get mowed down by a car and killed. These same eyewitnesses go to court, give their testimony, and the driver of the car is found guilty and goes to jail. Their eyewitness accounts are entered into the court record. Some 2,000 years later someone with the initials WD (the real name is being withheld) comes along and says, "Wait. I think that verdict should be overthrown. How do I know it's true?" Does this person get the time of day? Not in my book. Not in today's courts. How could this person possibly even believe what the Bible says, like Jesus was raised from the dead? We don't have any pictures. No transcript either, unless you are taking the word of some disciples .... So, what's to say they weren't lying?
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potato
irisheyes, very good point! unlike the people here, the writers of the new testament all knew each other, so their story is more suspect IMO. too much opportunity to fabricate consistent details. who's to say they just didn't make up the legend of Jesus to start their own religion? it's not on film. there are no documents from coroners or medical experts. just a bunch of stories from a bunch of guys who say they hung out with him, or who joined the religion later on.
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Watered Garden
No White Dove, I never heard anyone in any official capacity in a videotaped class or on the podium teaching at an official TWI "advance" or "class" or anything else say, "Yea, verily, and of an absolute certainty, my people, if thy wife offend thee she must be vigorously scourged, thrashed, whipped and beaten into submission." Of course no one would actually formally TEACH that. They could be held liable. Just like when we were told by WC to take our son into the North Cascades, walk him up to where no one could heard his screams, and take turns hitting him over the head with a 2 x 4 until he knew that he would die if he ever disrespected us again. Those words were not published or recorded. No one wants to be named in a court case and have TWI"s precious name dragged through the mud.
When I was diagnosed with IDDM I was sleeping in a tent at the ROA. This same man who wanted my child beaten reproved me for having IDDM and being so sick, because "one more night in that tent and you would have died, AND THAT WOULD HAVE MADE THE MINISTRY LOOK BAD!" Not one word of concern, not one "gee, I wish you'd come to me and let me help you find a doctor before things got so bad, honey." I would have made the ministry look bad. That was what mattered.
The point: Bubbakins, there was a lot of unofficially official doctrine spoken privily and in small groups that was accepted as gospel. Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
You sound a lot like the man I described above, WD. No heart for people. Everyone on this forum is human. Everyone's cry of pain and outrage is different, yet the same. I'm so sorry you can't hear those cries and respond with a heart of love.
And one more thing: The marriage relationship described in the Scripture is very different from TWI's spin on it.
WG
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excathedra
white dove
oh man, what is the matter ?
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Tom Strange
the only person offering speculation, fuzzy memories and guesses here WD is you. (but you already know that don't you?
yeah... you do have a problem, the only way for someone to 'prove' anything to you is to provide filmed evidence... otherwise, you say it didn't happen.
yes, they can... just like you always do.
sure they do... they can just call the people liars like you do.
Tell me WD, if none of this ever happened, if TWI and it's leaders were as blameless as you ALWAYS proclaim, if it was all the wonderland of your dreams... why aren't you still there?
You really don't need to rejoin them I guess... because you haven't really left them or the way they treat people.
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Tom Strange
Are these things true WD? you're not a woman? you weren't in the corps? you didn't go WOW? you never lived anywhere but Kansas while in TWI?
If these things are true... how in the world do you think you are qualified to speak on what happened to other people who were corps, who were WOW, who did live in lots of different parts of the country while in TWI? How can you honestly (watch out, slanted letters!) sit back throwing all of the stones of denial at folks?
Are these things true WD? You weren't at that limb office? you weren't at the women's advances? you weren't at the private marriage counselling sessions?
If we were in a court of law, as you're so fond of saying (watch out, more slanted letters!), the judge would tell you to shut up and only speak to what YOU know! (more slanted letters!)
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Tom Strange
...yeah... 'waybrainers' and people who sign their posts "Love from the Dove" (wait, is there any difference?)
... more like "droppings from the dove"
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chockfull
I think a lot of the atrocity in the marriage stuff happened because of the philandering of VPW and LCM. Other leaders mimic'd a certain disdain for and abuse towards women. To be fair, different places I lived were better in that respect, with WC leaders treating wives well and not promulgating an environment of abuse. Actually some of the more major Way problems IMO were due to people mimicing the sermons they saw rather than the actual supported teaching. Anyway, there's my .02.
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GarthP2000
Fascinating how folks like Johniam and his supporters go thru a *helluva* lot of denial spewing the crap they do, ... and actually feel that they are right in doing so. And the (self inflicted) near impossible difficulty it would take for them to apologize for their abusive verbal 'clocking' of those who dare challenge them re: these topics.
Where is the joy? Where is the peace of 'God'? Where is the Power to Live a More Than Abundant Life? ... You know, all the promises that were to supposedly go along with TWI and the PFAL class?
:unsure:
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WhiteDove
Ephesians 5: 22,23,24
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
One could read this verse and someone may assume it means beat your wife. Thats not what it says. I'm not interested in someone's guess or opinion of what they think someone may have said. Like I said not fact......... just opinion.
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WhiteDove
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WhiteDove
Really Tom and you can document your claim here, show me a post where I said that.......
Or should I just believe you because you are hurting?
Happy Digging.................
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WordWolf
Well,
this thread's gone a number of pages.
Except for the fact that there's new posters who've read it and understood what's happening
without difficulty,
this is pretty much the same type of thread we had all the way back at the waydale forums.
We have people who were direct eyewitnesses of things that happened,
who have said "I was in the room when this happened",
and we have people determined to do everything they can to attempt to silence or
discredit their testimony, despite not being where and when it happened,
and using every tool, starting with calling them liars without having the courage to use the
word "liar", to claiming their unchanging testimony has changed, to claiming ulterior
motives to those who've come forth, to claiming to be able to read their minds as to
details and what they did and didn't do, and so on.
Anything they personally didn't see didn't happen, especially if it was something unpleasant.
And anyone saying so must produce ludicrous amounts of evidence to back up things
they were witnesses of....all to silence unpleasant information.
Truth is truth, even when it is UNPLEASANT truth.
And love is often easy to see in progress.
And those who CLAIM to love while doing otherwise, well,
is it that hard to tell?
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Ham
It was more than "assumed".. it was enforced. I saw three "men(?)" bully, threaten and intimidate their wives into silence. What are they gonna do? Leave? Just walk fifteen miles to town, and catch a bus?
Oh.. the one guy is in the phone book.. I won't say his name here. But I wonder how he'd feel with a question about this twenty some years later.. I'd say you probably know him. Or who he is.
"duhhhh, we were just following orders.."
interesting how the past can return to bite someone in the rear.. apparently he can't "believe" big enough to bury it so deep to keep the "devil" from digging it up..
personally, I don't have the inclination. He's probably miserable enough living with himself as it is.
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Abigail
WhiteDove you can keep skirting it all you like, you can deny these teachings ever came out of HQ, and continue to claim that because the didn't they were not "official way doctrine." But can you deny that HQ placed people in positions of leadership who did, in fact, teach such things? Do you believe that those in charge at HQ are NOT in any way responsible for who they put in charge on the field?
I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc.
Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower.
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rascal
Who was backed into a corner and who claimed assumption?
You act like you scored some kind of coup, or made some little point. I have yet to see anybody backed into a corner or change their testimony of what they were taught....
Because it was taught by LC`s at womens advances or LC`s at pre marriage counceling...does not in any way negate the validity of my point.
It`s like you see things entirely different than they have been written.
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rascal
Good point Abby.
You brought up another buried memory...
I remember I was ALSO told that when we were mad (in pre marriage meeting) at each other....we should just have sex....that we couldn`t let the sun go down on our wrath...etc...yadda yadda....submit...yadda yadda....
Anyway, all I know is that it was translated to ....I was expected to have sex no matter HOW ....ed off I was ....and that would make everything ..ok...to NOT do so was to have a hard heart, to be disobedient....lacking in meekness...
I remember being in the middle of a heated argument ...and him deciding THAT was the time.... submitting...hating him...hating God for what I was being required to do...I did it...I completed the act ....but I felt something was being ripped from my soul as I did so. I don`t think it did much for him either, because it only happened the once...lol....marriage advice at it`s finest no doubt.
No this probably wasn`t down in the books as *official* twi doctrine. But obey your leader, obey your husband WAS. So anything that the leader suggested, advised, was tantamount to a command...the dulous din`t ask how high when commanded to jump....etc...
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Bumpy
So did it work? I mean, did you get THE DIIMAND!
What if the wc girl was just a lousy "screw"? What then? Does she still have to go into the kitchen and play housewife??
And wurst case scenerio...what if that little priceless princess...Can't even COOK??
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Lifted Up
Well, glad it got a lot better in later years. :)
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rascal
Lol...you pasted that before I got a chance to edit it lifted....I considered on second thought that it was probably WAY tmi....oh well...now it it pasted up for posterity for all to read :)
All laughter aside...it was a long hard haul to salvage our marriage from the teachings of twi. I mean we walked away from twi...but it was another 5 to 10 years before we started tossing out the damaging doctrines.
It took a lot of hard work and deciding that nothing we were taught was of much value....We had to start over fresh....
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Watered Garden
Okay, I'm gonna have to quit posting on this forum because WD keeps lifting one sentence out of my posts, twisting its meaning, taking it out of context, and using it against everyone. S/he's so good at twisting and misinterpreting stuff for personal benefit I wonder if it isn't really LCM we're writing with!
WG
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irisheyes
WG, most of us know what WD is up to. It's bloody easy to answer one sentence that isn't questioning what you are doing, but what you think might help you make a point. In all honesty, it does help make a point--that being WD has no idea what being backed into a corner really means, among other things ....
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Bramble
I heard this taught at a Bridal shower/ Women's Night by Mrs. Limb Coordinator. I'd been married about ten years at that time, and it had never occurred to me to use sex as a bargaining tool. At the time I rationalized the teaching--some women probably weren't married to such nice guys as my husband was...they had to resort to manipulative measures...
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