I think what a lot of people don't know or can understand.. the past really does own us, just as we do the past, the good, the bad, the indifferent.. the REAL ugly..
not a week goes by I don't remember some damn stupid thing I did or said to some SOUL in my deranged way days.. or some equally deranged counsel or advise or accusation I was on the wrong end of..
"no big deal. heck it was TWENTY years ago.."
really?
"oh, it was just a bad choice.."
was it?
The past has a lot more relevance than what some people may be willing to admit.
Maybe you just don't understand the person you think is just "whining"..
I remember one of the selling points for the class. "well, money can be replaced. Time cannot.. it's just a piddly 85 bucks.."
The claim is NOT true.. the lost money can't exactly be "replaced".
does that mean I'm wallowing in self pity? No...
all it means is if I personally have anything to do with it.. "they" won't do it to me again, or a loved one that I know and have any influence with. Oh yes.. "they" courted my own offspring.. trying to get them into their web of "superiority" and intrigue.. I had a few words. Not cruel.."of COURSE they are being *nice* to you. How else can they get the yoke on you?" One thing I can say.. they ended up having a lot more sense than the old man..
"get over it.. it was twenty nine years ago.."
sorry, that was just as much "me" back then that is "me" today..
I might be "nicer" about it, but I feel the same way as Rascal..
They've used and tossed away a whole generation of "believers".. without as much as a feigned apology.. and now they'd like a few from the new generation to work on?
Not anyone I know.. if I have anything to do with it..
I talked with counsellors when I enrolled in the big university here.. very interesting. "well, why did you wait so long to do what you're really good at in life.."
I gave them a few answers..
"ever hear of "da way"?"
yeah.. busy building an organization.. running meetings, stringing chairs, working a second rate job..
but one thing twi counted on.. that when they simply wadded up and threw away those who they no longer wanted or needed..
that they'd just "go away". Wouldn't cause any trouble.. wouldn't seek retribution, or anything..
Yep.. just leave "in peace".. "warmed, and filled.." or threatened..
that's nice. Where does one go.. oh, maybe let's just go to some kind of offshoot..
let's just find a little corner of the world where we can crouch, and not be any kind of embarassment..
I know at least ONE innie that prayed that prayer when they saw me in a public place..
turned their friggin back..
literally.
"omg, it's HIM.. GAWD.. don't let HIM see me.."
and I wasn't even such a bad guy in the organization..
I'm really too nice to people.. I coulda really wreaked havoc in this person's life if I wanted to..
"do you realize that the person you trust with your professional lives here is indeed a member of a cult I used to *belong* to?"
At the time, I felt the (very) LITTLE good the person was doing outside of der ministry deserved slightly better.. despite the snubbing I received at the time..
vpw is dead been dea the guy who wrote the class is dead he doesnt have quite the appeal he once did being alive.
I for one believe in reincarnation. I know.. it's as illogical as believing that people rise from the dead.. it's been what.. twenty two years.. and I'm looking for another dumbass charismatic, thieving and unoriginal character about twenty some years old claiming to have "da verd as it hath not been-a-known since der first century"..
Maybe the point is..
maybe we play out these same mindless scenarios, one lifetime after another..
well.. if you're gonna live forever, what else does one have to do to keep from getting bored?
somewhere along the line though, I think the "games" have become rather "serious"..
quote: Cman, I'm going to offer you the French late night Champagne benefit before the New Year's Party Cult Way Brain break of pre-party bonus points...
You might want to work on a new rendition just for originality?
That was cool. At first I thought it was latin. In high school I was in the choir and one time we sang this song acapella; it was called cantate domino (con tah tay doh me no) and it was all in latin. I would never have guessed it was the star spangled banner. Clever how the guy had the star spangled banner going forward while the film was going backwards.
it says God will be your rear guard, it says God will go before you, It says not to go with haste.
I believe we need a "rear guard" to keep the sins and troubles from the past from sneeking up on our life again and cause more problems.
God says in Ecclesiates that the past will be accounted for. He does hold people accountable for their life and what they do today and yesterday, yet he also guards us from the past hurts and sin so we can indeed move on to a new day with joy, to serve the call of a Risen Saviour.
The intimacy of God and His people is a remarkable thing.
Pond, on my life, my motives, and my views.....yes, I`d say that I am the quality control police :) Everything within those parameters are nothing more than very poor (we cannot even claim educated) guesses on your part.
Very good Hamm...I agree...the past is what makes me who I am today....
You know...I don`t understand not being outraged over what happened...whether it was 10, 20 or 100 years ago.
and despite what pond says...it isn`t even about me necessarily, but all of us...all of us who lost loved ones...who turned our backs on our families...who gave up our educations, our careers. Why NOT be outraged that our teenaged sisters were drugged raped and tossed aside ... why NOT be angry over our sisters and brothers who died....
No, I know this isn`t the holocost, or 911, or the tsunami that killed 200,000....but it was a huge deal to us who experienced it directly...it was our own disaster...viewed up close and personal...our lives impacted.
To ignore what happened...to dismiss the villains who committed the evil atrocities, in my book is cowardly.
Only in carefull examining what happened, what made us vulnerable, how we were decieved...how to recognize the evil in spite of the sheeps skin of christianity that a wolf dons...is all integral in preventing it from happening again.
My God Pond...since way dale and greasespot...since people have been allowed to tell what happened...since people have been allowed to get good and mad about mistreatment...as near as I can tell...20, 000 plus people...have made their way to freedom...who knows how many people have been prevented from joining that group.....
Good LORD....people ho would have NEVER known the truth...NEVER had the strength to leave knowing that there was life outside of twi...had we just tucked our tails when once aware of the truth...meekily forgiven the perpetrators of evil...and walked away.
Tens of thousands of people freed from the tierany of living under rediculous standards oppressed by lunatic leaders who had final say so in everything in your life from where you vacationed to when you went to the grocery, to your finances ...right down to demaning to know your schedual down to when you had sex with your spouse.
The children that have been saved the grief from growing up with legalistic freakishly anal parents.
The sick freak that was running the place has been ousted....the rest of em don`t dare stick a toe out of line now..knowing that they are being watched and legal actuion is a very real possibility.
I say keep whining keep bitching keep talking about the past untill the day we die...if it saves one single soul from becoming entangled in the snare and devoured by the ravening wolves.
To do anything ELSE in my opinion would be dishonorable, and cowardly.
You don`t get it, obviously Pond. That doesn`t negate the value of what we speak of, nor negate what has been accomplished when brave people DID speak out about what happened, instead of slinking away with their tail tucked between their legs like whipped dogs.
I DO find the crimes committed atrocious...heinous...evil...unconscionable...no most weren`t prosecuted, but that damned sure didn`t make them any less damnably guilty.
Go ahead...ignore what happened, dismiss the pain and suffering, pretend like it doesn`t matter. That is precisely what the ministry wishes we would do...just shut UP...so they can go back to hiding...sneaking ...skulking in the dark and destroying lives in the name of God.
Go ahead Pond, ignore what happened if you wish...ignore your spiritual and moral responsibility....hide behind scriptures if it makes you feel better....but don`t try to prevent me from doing what I see as the morally, ethically, and spiritually correct thing, as in the speaking up concerning my knowledge of a dangerous, life destroying cult of evil people whom CONTINUE to use the name of God and scriptures to ensnare.
Walk your own path pond, please allow me to walk mine.
settled means no one is found guilty they settled their issues without a judge ruling ANYTHING!!!!
BIG difference between not being found guilty and being found innocent. As most already know, people "settle" out of court because they don't want anyone to know what really happened. It usually is taken as a sign of being guilty, otherwise why not fight to prove your innocence?
BTW, went to see a movie on a series of events that happened in 1935 in a black college in Texas this weekend, The Great Debaters. Obviously there are LOTS of other people out there who can't let the past die. What difference does it make? What relevance could it hold for today? Well, as my husband pointed out on leaving the theatre, most of the debate questions in the movie could be argued with the same passion today. They have never been "settled." And as in TWI, the people who commited the atrocities recounted in the movie (which is a true story) are most likely dead. However, the lessons gleaned from them still need to be taught today. And, as war criminals from Nazi Germany are still held accountable (if they are indeed found alive), people need to be told what happened to prevent a recurrence AND to know that people still care to see justice accomplished.
Perhaps if justice has been met to those responsible for what happened in TWI, we'd have no need to post here....
I have to agree that is a pretty rediculous statement about being guilty verses being prosecuted. Gee...wonder why twi has to pay millions in legal fees to stay out of hot water....
In my own world.... have stood by helplessly watching people of character assassinated in court by a vindictive attorney....their reputations destroyed because someone wanted to run the organization that they had founded....
My friends had to drop the fight...had no recourse to address the lies and slander after their 13, 000 dollar retainer had run out...they flat ran out of money to fight.
Was it right what the attorny did? Was it truthfull? Was the out come just?? Oh Hayal no...but that is what happens when the opponent has unlimited resources for legal fees
The sad truth in America today, it isn`t who is right or wrong in the courts, but who has enough money to pay for the best attornies :(
vpw died . people left no one has ever been able to find him guilty of any crime.
uh, yeah. because dead people are prosecuted all the time in our society. right?
lcm was sued in in a CIVIL court of which the details and evidence is never going to be disclosed they settled out of court hello.
settled means no one is found guilty they settled their issues without a judge ruling ANYTHING!!!!
on top of that the details of the suit are not to be known by anyone and are sealed.
Actually many of the details and evidence are coming to light. The actual court case was sealed so we don't have access to any of the depositions, but many of the potential witnesses in the case that were never officially deposed are certainly free to disclose facts. Now yes it would be great to have a record of the deposition by lcm where he admitted to his hundreds of torrid affairs, but it's not really necessary - we see the results. His wife divorced him, his kids won't speak to him, his organization disowned him, he publically apologized. Other stories put together a pattern of behavior that was pretty clear. One of the lawsuits was a quid pro quo sexual harassment case, which was also settled quickly. These are ALL civil cases, not criminal. That makes them legal - they legally admitted guilt and paid off victims, with enough money to ensure they wouldn't speak of it further.
so along comes gs to fill in the blanks with what ever imagination or speculation they think or heard or whatever.
part of the pattern of abuse is to call real things that happened to people imagination or speculation. that's what twi leaders have done, except where they've had to accept and sign the lawsuit settlement papers. even then how it was publically handled is by presenting a victory that they were settled.
no crimes were cominted by record.
not exactly" evil atrocities" in my book.
your book must be about a second grade reading level.
internet folly and fun to read sure but no one really made any changes in anything by bitching on a thread.
like twi Greaspot is a tiny little group of people with a given agenda.
i beg to differ. speaking up always has value, and many times catalyzes changes not immediately seen.
the founding fathers of our country were a tiny little group of people with a given agenda.
certainly the king of england wanted to dismiss them. they became a burr under his saddle and took his power,
in the process establishing a great country.
nothing world changing about twi or greaspot Rascal. yes we do see different perspectives.
I think what helps is the wonderful front page pawtucket has set up with his papers and resources now that is helpful.
the constant ranting of invisable people with no names making accusations without merit really doesnt rock the cult world as much as you believe.
rock on.
the accusations most certainly have merit. they have proven so legally. they have merit in thwarting further abuse. stories like these are used all the time in the business world to educate buyers. they are called "customer reviews". they affect the ability to sell the product.
Hi again White Dove. I really enjoy our conversations.
RASCAL,
Thanks for your courage to share so much of your life with us. As this thread is; not to mention this web site; is to help people overcome past abuse I can't imagine a more couragious and selfless act than to share your life in the face of this type of resistance. As to those that don't like your sharings, I'm just glad that their words are on record here. As to their motives, I have to hold back because what I said earlier about judging peoples motives applies here. But I trust what I think of their actions is clear too!
At it's best I believe that it was a practical solution designed to give fallible human beings that happened to be leadership some personal space to deal with their faults.
But as is often the case with us people, something good can be twisted around and turned to nasty and dishonest effect.
I believe that the practical effect of "lockbox" later was to hide the deliberate and nasty things that went on behind the scenes.
What was designed to lovingly cover human flaws was later used to perpetuate human abuse.
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Ham
I think what a lot of people don't know or can understand.. the past really does own us, just as we do the past, the good, the bad, the indifferent.. the REAL ugly..
not a week goes by I don't remember some damn stupid thing I did or said to some SOUL in my deranged way days.. or some equally deranged counsel or advise or accusation I was on the wrong end of..
"no big deal. heck it was TWENTY years ago.."
really?
"oh, it was just a bad choice.."
was it?
The past has a lot more relevance than what some people may be willing to admit.
Maybe you just don't understand the person you think is just "whining"..
I remember one of the selling points for the class. "well, money can be replaced. Time cannot.. it's just a piddly 85 bucks.."
The claim is NOT true.. the lost money can't exactly be "replaced".
does that mean I'm wallowing in self pity? No...
all it means is if I personally have anything to do with it.. "they" won't do it to me again, or a loved one that I know and have any influence with. Oh yes.. "they" courted my own offspring.. trying to get them into their web of "superiority" and intrigue.. I had a few words. Not cruel.."of COURSE they are being *nice* to you. How else can they get the yoke on you?" One thing I can say.. they ended up having a lot more sense than the old man..
"get over it.. it was twenty nine years ago.."
sorry, that was just as much "me" back then that is "me" today..
I might be "nicer" about it, but I feel the same way as Rascal..
They've used and tossed away a whole generation of "believers".. without as much as a feigned apology.. and now they'd like a few from the new generation to work on?
Not anyone I know.. if I have anything to do with it..
I talked with counsellors when I enrolled in the big university here.. very interesting. "well, why did you wait so long to do what you're really good at in life.."
I gave them a few answers..
"ever hear of "da way"?"
yeah.. busy building an organization.. running meetings, stringing chairs, working a second rate job..
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pond
I think the situation is different today on many levels one
twi is old now it has a history that is tainted .
the internet impact communication about such groups .
but i really do think those who will or do get involved will have to find out on their own what it means to them just like we did and do.
people and their thought os the minsitry really vary.
look at the thousands clinging to the off shoots.
for some folks it was an is still trying to be such a part of their life they wont ever be without it.
and IM certain more wil "rise up" to do it again it is the nature of people .
vpw is dead been dea the guy who wrote the class is dead he doesnt have quite the appeal he once did being alive.
also a woman is running the shows makes a difference in many christians circles many do not believe women should lead and preach.
hopefully this goes on the other
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Ham
but one thing twi counted on.. that when they simply wadded up and threw away those who they no longer wanted or needed..
that they'd just "go away". Wouldn't cause any trouble.. wouldn't seek retribution, or anything..
Yep.. just leave "in peace".. "warmed, and filled.." or threatened..
that's nice. Where does one go.. oh, maybe let's just go to some kind of offshoot..
let's just find a little corner of the world where we can crouch, and not be any kind of embarassment..
I know at least ONE innie that prayed that prayer when they saw me in a public place..
turned their friggin back..
literally.
"omg, it's HIM.. GAWD.. don't let HIM see me.."
and I wasn't even such a bad guy in the organization..
I'm really too nice to people.. I coulda really wreaked havoc in this person's life if I wanted to..
"do you realize that the person you trust with your professional lives here is indeed a member of a cult I used to *belong* to?"
At the time, I felt the (very) LITTLE good the person was doing outside of der ministry deserved slightly better.. despite the snubbing I received at the time..
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Ham
I really think.. the only or main thing "different" today..
With today's economy in the state it is.. they won't be able to sit back in their ivory houses, while moolah pours in by the bucket..
They are gonna have to take their show on the road.. and be even MORE convincing, to get their next meal, or bottle of bourbon..
it's gonna be like the "good old days"..
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Ham
I for one believe in reincarnation. I know.. it's as illogical as believing that people rise from the dead.. it's been what.. twenty two years.. and I'm looking for another dumbass charismatic, thieving and unoriginal character about twenty some years old claiming to have "da verd as it hath not been-a-known since der first century"..
Maybe the point is..
maybe we play out these same mindless scenarios, one lifetime after another..
well.. if you're gonna live forever, what else does one have to do to keep from getting bored?
somewhere along the line though, I think the "games" have become rather "serious"..
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johniam
quote: Cman, I'm going to offer you the French late night Champagne benefit before the New Year's Party Cult Way Brain break of pre-party bonus points...
You might want to work on a new rendition just for originality?
That was cool. At first I thought it was latin. In high school I was in the choir and one time we sang this song acapella; it was called cantate domino (con tah tay doh me no) and it was all in latin. I would never have guessed it was the star spangled banner. Clever how the guy had the star spangled banner going forward while the film was going backwards.
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Ham
I really think..
you have to go through so much competition, at least one big committee..
the "next" life.. you've made so many different agreements, it doesn't even resemble the one before..
and there are no guarantees, even from the "committee"..
"you VERY LIKELY will NOT remember any of this.."
but some of us do..
I'd say more, with the right kind of prompting.. heheh. probably the wrong forum..
hey.. this is entertainment at it's best. Watch the Squirrel chase it's tail on a beautiful Sunday night..
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cman
making sense to me
is that good or bad :)
happy new year!!! or somethin........
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pond
Ecclesiastes 3:15 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account
In Isaiah 52 12
it says God will be your rear guard, it says God will go before you, It says not to go with haste.
I believe we need a "rear guard" to keep the sins and troubles from the past from sneeking up on our life again and cause more problems.
God says in Ecclesiates that the past will be accounted for. He does hold people accountable for their life and what they do today and yesterday, yet he also guards us from the past hurts and sin so we can indeed move on to a new day with joy, to serve the call of a Risen Saviour.
The intimacy of God and His people is a remarkable thing.
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rascal
Pond, on my life, my motives, and my views.....yes, I`d say that I am the quality control police :) Everything within those parameters are nothing more than very poor (we cannot even claim educated) guesses on your part.
Very good Hamm...I agree...the past is what makes me who I am today....
You know...I don`t understand not being outraged over what happened...whether it was 10, 20 or 100 years ago.
and despite what pond says...it isn`t even about me necessarily, but all of us...all of us who lost loved ones...who turned our backs on our families...who gave up our educations, our careers. Why NOT be outraged that our teenaged sisters were drugged raped and tossed aside ... why NOT be angry over our sisters and brothers who died....
No, I know this isn`t the holocost, or 911, or the tsunami that killed 200,000....but it was a huge deal to us who experienced it directly...it was our own disaster...viewed up close and personal...our lives impacted.
To ignore what happened...to dismiss the villains who committed the evil atrocities, in my book is cowardly.
Only in carefull examining what happened, what made us vulnerable, how we were decieved...how to recognize the evil in spite of the sheeps skin of christianity that a wolf dons...is all integral in preventing it from happening again.
My God Pond...since way dale and greasespot...since people have been allowed to tell what happened...since people have been allowed to get good and mad about mistreatment...as near as I can tell...20, 000 plus people...have made their way to freedom...who knows how many people have been prevented from joining that group.....
Good LORD....people ho would have NEVER known the truth...NEVER had the strength to leave knowing that there was life outside of twi...had we just tucked our tails when once aware of the truth...meekily forgiven the perpetrators of evil...and walked away.
Tens of thousands of people freed from the tierany of living under rediculous standards oppressed by lunatic leaders who had final say so in everything in your life from where you vacationed to when you went to the grocery, to your finances ...right down to demaning to know your schedual down to when you had sex with your spouse.
The children that have been saved the grief from growing up with legalistic freakishly anal parents.
The sick freak that was running the place has been ousted....the rest of em don`t dare stick a toe out of line now..knowing that they are being watched and legal actuion is a very real possibility.
I say keep whining keep bitching keep talking about the past untill the day we die...if it saves one single soul from becoming entangled in the snare and devoured by the ravening wolves.
To do anything ELSE in my opinion would be dishonorable, and cowardly.
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pond
words like "evil atrocities" again you really like that word.
break it down.
vpw died . people left no one has ever been able to find him guilty of any crime.
lcm was sued in in a CIVIL court of which the details and evidence is never going to be disclosed they settled out of court hello.
settled means no one is found guilty they settled their issues without a judge ruling ANYTHING!!!!
on top of that the details of the suit are not to be known by anyone and are sealed.
so along comes gs to fill in the blanks with what ever imagination or speculation they think or heard or whatever.
no crimes were cominted by record.
not exactly" evil atrocities" in my book.
internet folly and fun to read sure but no one really made any changes in anything by bitching on a thread.
like twi Greaspot is a tiny little group of people with a given agenda.
nothing world changing about twi or greaspot Rascal. yes we do see different perspectives.
I think what helps is the wonderful front page pawtucket has set up with his papers and resources now that is helpful.
the constant ranting of invisable people with no names making accusations without merit really doesnt rock the cult world as much as you believe.
rock on.
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Ham
I dunno. If innies turn here for "news about der vey.."
must be making SOME kinda difference..
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rascal
You don`t get it, obviously Pond. That doesn`t negate the value of what we speak of, nor negate what has been accomplished when brave people DID speak out about what happened, instead of slinking away with their tail tucked between their legs like whipped dogs.
I DO find the crimes committed atrocious...heinous...evil...unconscionable...no most weren`t prosecuted, but that damned sure didn`t make them any less damnably guilty.
Go ahead...ignore what happened, dismiss the pain and suffering, pretend like it doesn`t matter. That is precisely what the ministry wishes we would do...just shut UP...so they can go back to hiding...sneaking ...skulking in the dark and destroying lives in the name of God.
Go ahead Pond, ignore what happened if you wish...ignore your spiritual and moral responsibility....hide behind scriptures if it makes you feel better....but don`t try to prevent me from doing what I see as the morally, ethically, and spiritually correct thing, as in the speaking up concerning my knowledge of a dangerous, life destroying cult of evil people whom CONTINUE to use the name of God and scriptures to ensnare.
Walk your own path pond, please allow me to walk mine.
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cman
I'd rather talk of 'invisable' people then ignore them.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Al Capone wasn't a bad guy. Took care of his family and friends. All he was ever prosecuted for was tax evasion.
George
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Ham
oh, and don't forget- *mr* capone gave away a good number of doughnuts..
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Danny
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irisheyes
BIG difference between not being found guilty and being found innocent. As most already know, people "settle" out of court because they don't want anyone to know what really happened. It usually is taken as a sign of being guilty, otherwise why not fight to prove your innocence?
BTW, went to see a movie on a series of events that happened in 1935 in a black college in Texas this weekend, The Great Debaters. Obviously there are LOTS of other people out there who can't let the past die. What difference does it make? What relevance could it hold for today? Well, as my husband pointed out on leaving the theatre, most of the debate questions in the movie could be argued with the same passion today. They have never been "settled." And as in TWI, the people who commited the atrocities recounted in the movie (which is a true story) are most likely dead. However, the lessons gleaned from them still need to be taught today. And, as war criminals from Nazi Germany are still held accountable (if they are indeed found alive), people need to be told what happened to prevent a recurrence AND to know that people still care to see justice accomplished.
Perhaps if justice has been met to those responsible for what happened in TWI, we'd have no need to post here....
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rascal
I have to agree that is a pretty rediculous statement about being guilty verses being prosecuted. Gee...wonder why twi has to pay millions in legal fees to stay out of hot water....
In my own world.... have stood by helplessly watching people of character assassinated in court by a vindictive attorney....their reputations destroyed because someone wanted to run the organization that they had founded....
My friends had to drop the fight...had no recourse to address the lies and slander after their 13, 000 dollar retainer had run out...they flat ran out of money to fight.
Was it right what the attorny did? Was it truthfull? Was the out come just?? Oh Hayal no...but that is what happens when the opponent has unlimited resources for legal fees
The sad truth in America today, it isn`t who is right or wrong in the courts, but who has enough money to pay for the best attornies :(
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chockfull
uh, yeah. because dead people are prosecuted all the time in our society. right?
Actually many of the details and evidence are coming to light. The actual court case was sealed so we don't have access to any of the depositions, but many of the potential witnesses in the case that were never officially deposed are certainly free to disclose facts. Now yes it would be great to have a record of the deposition by lcm where he admitted to his hundreds of torrid affairs, but it's not really necessary - we see the results. His wife divorced him, his kids won't speak to him, his organization disowned him, he publically apologized. Other stories put together a pattern of behavior that was pretty clear. One of the lawsuits was a quid pro quo sexual harassment case, which was also settled quickly. These are ALL civil cases, not criminal. That makes them legal - they legally admitted guilt and paid off victims, with enough money to ensure they wouldn't speak of it further.part of the pattern of abuse is to call real things that happened to people imagination or speculation. that's what twi leaders have done, except where they've had to accept and sign the lawsuit settlement papers. even then how it was publically handled is by presenting a victory that they were settled.
your book must be about a second grade reading level.i beg to differ. speaking up always has value, and many times catalyzes changes not immediately seen.
the founding fathers of our country were a tiny little group of people with a given agenda.
certainly the king of england wanted to dismiss them. they became a burr under his saddle and took his power,
in the process establishing a great country.
the accusations most certainly have merit. they have proven so legally. they have merit in thwarting further abuse. stories like these are used all the time in the business world to educate buyers. they are called "customer reviews". they affect the ability to sell the product.
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WhiteDove
"But To Live Outside The Law You Must Be Honest" _ Bob Dylan
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JeffSjo
Hi again White Dove. I really enjoy our conversations.
RASCAL,
Thanks for your courage to share so much of your life with us. As this thread is; not to mention this web site; is to help people overcome past abuse I can't imagine a more couragious and selfless act than to share your life in the face of this type of resistance. As to those that don't like your sharings, I'm just glad that their words are on record here. As to their motives, I have to hold back because what I said earlier about judging peoples motives applies here. But I trust what I think of their actions is clear too!
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Shellon
Again, Jeff, well said
It get pretty obvious pretty quickly what's really going on, doesn't it, as to motive.
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JeffSjo
I want to share some thoughts on "lockbox"
At it's best I believe that it was a practical solution designed to give fallible human beings that happened to be leadership some personal space to deal with their faults.
But as is often the case with us people, something good can be twisted around and turned to nasty and dishonest effect.
I believe that the practical effect of "lockbox" later was to hide the deliberate and nasty things that went on behind the scenes.
What was designed to lovingly cover human flaws was later used to perpetuate human abuse.
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