Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe

Elitism and the seperation of humanity through religion


Recommended Posts

The only elitism that I know from the bible for today's time is that every knee shall bow to Jesus Christ....that is the defining mark of spirituality and christianity for today, bar none.  If you don't aknowledge him along with God, you're lost.

Phil 2:9,10

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 81
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The only elitism that I know from the bible for today's time is that every knee shall bow to Jesus Christ....that is the defining mark of spirituality and christianity for today, bar none.  If you don't aknowledge him along with God, you're lost.
I disagree :biglaugh:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only elitism that I know from the bible for today's time is that every knee shall bow to Jesus Christ....that is the defining mark of spirituality and christianity for today, bar none. If you don't aknowledge him along with God, you're lost.

Phil 2:9,10

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

To my non Christian mind that sounds alot like fear motivation--my way or the highway yet again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And let me define my earlier statement, which is that acceptance of Jesus Christ is the mark of true spirituality biblically speaking, as when he was alive as well as today, and the mark of true christianity which bears his name.  

Jesus Christ's coming was the ongoing theme throughout the OT from Genesis thru the Gospells, and he still is a main theme in the NT from the Gospells which were written about him, thru Revelations.

My words don't make knees bow in the heavens, but God's words do, is it not God who states that by the name of Jesus Christ shall every knee bow? Does it not say that?  I believe that's what this passage in the bible says.  

If you don't believe in Christ or the bible, my comments aren't really directed toward you anyway, I am addressing those who call themselves Christians, and the originating post.

Believe what you will, define spirituality as you will, but my post was directed toward a specific comment.

Edited by but now I see
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not every Christian interprets those same verses in Phillipians the same as you do. I think there are some Christian Univeralists who post here and it seems this has come up in the past in discussion.

Christians do have choices in how they view and interpret scriopture, there is no one, universal Christian doctrine for all to accept.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not every Christian interprets those same verses in Phillipians the same as you do. I think there are some Christian Univeralists who post here and it seems this has come up in the past in discussion.

Christians do have choices in how they view and interpret scriopture, there is no one, universal Christian doctrine for all to accept.

and those who think they do have the one and only doctrine sound the most full of elitism.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I'll bite.  What is your interpretation of those verses, or is it that you choose to ignore them or discount them, please explain why you think the inclusion of christ is having a one and only doctrine of christ-ianity?   So you're saying preaching christ is an exclusionary doctrine that isn't fair?  

What's wrong with acknowledging both God and Christ, you have a problem with that being the definition of Christianity or are YOU talking about another doctrine??   How do you define the identity of a Christian?

(If you are a non Christian, again, I am not addressing you, I am addressing the original first post topic, I am not discussing the validity of Christ with those who are non Christian, all are free to decide what they believe, again, I am addressing the original post.)

I am stating what the bible states, is the bible also elitist? maybe?  What is your definition of these verses?  We are talking about the bible here, are we not?  Is this not the Doctrinal forum, it isn't the philosphy of man forum, the doctrine of the bible is the subject here right?

Phil 2:8, ff. . .he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You do not acknowledge Jesus Christ or his accomplishments?  You don't think anyone should need to?  

I can't see any other way around it, Jesus Christ is the fulcrum of the bible, and he follows us thru to Revelations, he is there too, I cannot dismiss him as he is integral to God, the written word, and those who worship Him.  I do see the bible demands the acknowledgement of Christ from cover to cover.

What is it that you are stating, I have stated plainly my position, not one of you who've dissagreed with me has offered up any sort of statement as to why or explained your position, but you shoot mine down so easily.  I might say you are being elitist by not sharing your side of the discussion.

Edited by but now I see
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I'll bite.  What is your interpretation of those verses, or is it that you choose to ignore them or discount them, please explain why you think the inclusion of christ is having a one and only doctrine of christ-ianity?   

Howdy but now I see.

The Bible is a great book to fight over. I was in a group that could pove any dog gone thing they wanted to through the Bible. TWI.

There are Theological alternitves, that make more sense, then man choosing heaven or hell through a bowing of the knee...........

If Christ is over all then every knee shall bow. Christ will not loose any. None will be lost. Man cuts his losses; God does not.

Here is a web site that is commited to Proving that Univiersalism is what the Bible teaches.

http://tentmaker.org/

I don't argue Bible anymore, so the website that I posted will have to suffice.

Personally I have evolved right out of needing any Biblical platform to support "true spirituality".

The Bible is just part of mans attempt to explain God's works in mankind. Personally I am still very Pauline in my Spiritual approach to life.

The point here is that elitism uses it's doctrines make others of little, smaller, or of no worth.

God is not an elitist....."God is love".

Have fun.

Patrick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, Ok...this has got to be the weirdest thread I've ever responded to...all I wanted to do was post a quick funny quip, about elitism and Christianity, what a tempest in a teapot. You all are a little too dead serious for me…I don't think any of the responses to me have anything at all to do with what I posted..but here goes..

Patrick, I looked up that link, and they support Jesus Christ as the son of God and as our savior, same as me.

What it looks like to me, from a brief perusing, is they believe all are saved and no torment in the gathering...ok, fine, never commented on that since it was not an issue with me, they can believe whatever they want.

What I was trying to do was make a funny, by pointing out the fact that in the NT Jesus is the key to unlocking the door, since he's our redeemer...an elitist premiss-LOL!

If some of my responders don't believe that, then fine, get another bible, maybe they're already using another bible, beats the heck outa me, but if the topic is Christianity, Christ is automatically involved, it is illogical to argue about that, if you are arguing that, then you're somewhere too far out there for me.

Edited by but now I see
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are Theological alternitves, that make more sense, then man choosing heaven or hell through a bowing of the knee...........

Patrick,

I never said that nor intimated that nor even think that, funny how you read that into the scripture I posted.  Do you see me mention salvation or heaven or hell in any of my posts concerning the scriptures in Philippians?

I do think that acknowledging Christ is the key to being in harmony with God.

I do think who has eternal life is not up to me or you or anyone else but God.

I don't think the verses I posted are addressing who gets to have eternal life.

You might be here to propound your doctrine, ok, then be straightforward about it.

You also seem kind of passive aggressive with those of us who have commented on your assertions and have given comments and feedback. You say you're not arguing scripture, but you are, you say you are not attacking posters, but you're disparaging them, even when they agree with you....I don't get it??  What do you want?

This is some hostile thread....

Edited by but now I see
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Patrick,

I never said that nor intimated that nor even think that, funny how you read that into the scripture I posted.  Do you see me mention salvation or heaven or hell in any of my posts concerning the scriptures in Philippians?

but now I see,

Could well be that I read something into your posts that you where not saying. My appologies.

I do think that acknowledging Christ is the key to being in harmony with God.

I do think who has eternal life is not up to me or you or anyone else but God.

I don't think the verses I posted are addressing who gets to have eternal life.

You might be here to propound your doctrine, ok, then be straightforward about it.

Propound, repound, try um out, see how they fly......sure. I'm here because I enjoy talking theology with people that have a similar back ground. I tend to grow more with some dialogue.......thanks for yours.

You also seem kind of passive aggressive with those of us who have commented on your assertions and have given comments and feedback. You say you're not arguing scripture, but you are, you say you are not attacking posters, but you're disparaging them, even when they agree with you....I don't get it??  What do you want?

I'm dialoguing..................can't help the passive agressive thing; I had not noticed it.

As for arguing scripture, I have spent a lot of time arguing scripture over the internet...........I'm not. I was giving some alternatives to what I thought you where saying. Alternatives are nice even if I missunderstood you.

This is some hostile thread....

"The seperation of himanity through riligion" tends to bring out hostility. We have all been burned by religion in one way or another and I find a good way to heal is to dialogue.

James 5:16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am stating what the bible states, is the bible also elitist?

I believe that much of the Bible is elitist. Those who wrote it where writing from there religious perspective.

 maybe?  What is your definition of these verses?  We are talking about the bible here, are we not?  Is this not the Doctrinal forum, it isn't the philosphy of man forum, the doctrine of the bible is the subject here right?

"This forum is for the discussion of religious/spiritual doctrinal beliefs. Since this site is not a religious site, keep all doctrinal discussions in here."

This is pretty much the only place I post on this site. My intrest here is spiritual.

The topic of this thread is religion in general, but most of us have strong ties to Christianity, so it is understandable that the religion of Christianity, whould dominate the thread.

I can't see any other way around it, Jesus Christ is the fulcrum of the bible, and he follows us thru to Revelations, he is there too, I cannot dismiss him as he is integral to God, the written word, and those who worship Him.  I do see the bible demands the acknowledgement of Christ from cover to cover.

You can only see what you can see...............A lot of what you are saying here is because of certain doctrinal influences. It is easy to disagree with a statement like "the Bible demands the acknowlegement of Christ form cover to cover". Your view of Bible is not the same as everyones. Your view of the Bible is sectarian even within Christianity. The original topic here is not to acknowlege or dismiss the Bible.

What is it that you are stating, I have stated plainly my position, not one of you who've dissagreed with me has offered up any sort of statement as to why or explained your position, but you shoot mine down so easily.  I might say you are being elitist by not sharing your side of the discussion.

That is the point; We, with our religious posotions, are all elitists.

Patrick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's define what we mean by "elitism" and explain why we think that it's bad.

Merrian-EWebster online defines it thusly:

elite[/i]is defined as:

1 asingular or plural in construction : the choice part : cream <the elite of the entertainment world> bsingular or plural in construction : the best of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite — Marilyn Chase> csingular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society <how the elite live — A P World> <how the French-speaking elite…was changing — Economist> d: a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence <members of the ruling elite> <the intellectual elites of the country> e: a member of such an elite —usually used in plural <the elites …, pursuing their studies in Europe — Robert Wernick>

2: a typewriter type providing 12 characters to the linear inch

— elite adjective

Okay, so the elite are those who are special either by way of their abilities or their position, possibily by accident of birth (although this is not specifically stated in the definition). Elitism is either the rule by the elite or the belief or recognition that one belongs to that special class, the implication being that those outside the special class are inferior, i.e. not special in some fashion.

I think that one way of looking at Christian belief is the belief that Christians are an elite, but an elite that anyone can join. Sure, some Christians look down on the "unbelievers" or even the "differently-believing" as outside their special circle, as inferior or lacking in some way, but they generally believe that anyone can join their club, anyone can be a Christian. One is not barred by birth or finances or intelligence from being in the elite.

I think that most religions have this mindset, or even the non-religious, not just Christians.

Is there anything wrong with believing oneself to be part of an elite? Probably not, unless the majority begins to use their elitism to oppress the minority or squeeze them out somehow.

The diference between religious based elitism and professional or skill based elitism, is that the religious based only makes sense within the context of the belief system and not in the larger world.

Edited by Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that one way of looking at Christian belief is the belief that Christians are an elite, but an elite that anyone can join. Sure, some Christians look down on the "unbelievers" or even the "differently-believing" as outside their special circle, as inferior or lacking in some way, but they generally believe that anyone can join their club, anyone can be a Christian. One is not barred by birth or finances or intelligence from being in the elite.

Hi Oakspear,

I've learned a lot since starting this thread.

If you want to be a in the Christian elite or any sectarian group, you have to submit to their rules of conduct to be approved. This is the consciousness of the group. There is also a subtle pecking order, but that is in all orginizations. Although one might not be "barred" from an elitist group because of any certain thing, they often feel the effects of not being quite like the rest. Kind of reminds me of a Rush song.........

Subdivisions ---

In the high school halls

In the shopping malls

Conform or be cast out

Subdivisions ---

In the basement bars

In the backs of cars

Be cool or be cast out

I think that most religions have this mindset, or even the non-religious, not just Christians.

Is there anything wrong with believing oneself to be part of an elite? Probably not, unless the majority begins to use their elitism to oppress the minority or squeeze them out somehow.

The diference between religious based elitism and professional or skill based elitism, is that the religious based only makes sense within the context of the belief system and not in the larger world.

There really is nothing wrong with being part of an elitist group, but it has it's effect on how we live our lives. We miss our chances to love all because we have our criteria.

God is love, and God loves all, and so should we.

What is it that holds us back?

Our criteria.

Our own complexes.

Fear.

Disharmony, and separation.

If God is love and We have fellowship with God, then we should walk with the same love that God has for all. I believe that we can feel this harmony and that we can sense when we are out of this harmony.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

The carnal mind that Paul talked of is "race consciousness". The carnal mind is the mind that has not renewed itself to the spiritual reality, that will bring about real abundant life, and peace.

The world is separated because people have made it that way. To God the world is NOT separated. The world is one united whole, and when we see it as such, we see it as God sees it. These "visions of grandeur" have a powerful effect on how we 'feel' in every aspect of life. If we feel connected to every other human being, we tend to 'feel the love', that is so often missing.

The effect of elitism is always separation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People build up elite attitudes over all types of things--money, family name, educational level, the neighborhood they live in etc.

As a child I belonged to an elite group, my local Catholic school...and way back when it was taught that non Catholics would go to hell. How could they not? They never went to Mass or confession etc. They probably didn't even know the Act of Contrition prayer. My dad had converted to Catholicism to marry mom.

But I didn't feel really superior back then, more sad that people like my Congregational neighbors were hell bound. But we got along fine with them, played together, shared rides to the swimming pool etc.

In TWI the elitism was of an entirely different nature--we distrusted and even ridiculed those not in our group. Nothing could really be said that was too harsh. LCM would have been happy to stone homosexuals and disobedient children. No compassion. It was a different level of elite, one that looked on outsiders as enemies.

Maybe it is a matter of degree... TWI was aggressive and angry in many ways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In TWI the elitism was of an entirely different nature--we distrusted and even ridiculed those not in our group. Nothing could really be said that was too harsh. LCM would have been happy to stone homosexuals and disobedient children. No compassion. It was a different level of elite, one that looked on outsiders as enemies.

Maybe it is a matter of degree... TWI was aggressive and angry in many ways.

Which is being carnally minded.

The carnal mind that Paul talked of is "race consciousness".

I'm sorry could you explain this comment to me. "Race" as in an athletic competition, or "race" as in nationality, or something else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And the elect are elected to serve.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which is being carnally minded.

I'm sorry could you explain this comment to me. "Race" as in an athletic competition, or "race" as in nationality, or something else?

Race consciousness is the consciousness that any group holds. Paul came from a specific religious way of thinking.....his conciousness of what sin was, was built on the Law of moses, his sectarian upbringing, and his conversion to Christianity. All these things where contributors to his Ideal of what the 'flesh' was, as opposed to the Spirit.

Romans 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Through the Law is the knowlege of sin........missing the mark of the law that nobody could live up to.

Romans 7:18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul was teaching renewed mind.

Paul was teaching to walk accoring to the good that was "his desire".

Paul was teaching that to walk anything less then what the Spirit dictated was to walk in death.

I was a Christian for the benefits. The life. The peace.

I retain Paul's teaching on renewed mind for the benefits.

To be carnally minded is death, but to be Spiritual minded is life and peace.

HHHMmmmm,

Was "the renewed mind is the key to power" part of TWI teachings?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

Announcements


×
×
  • Create New...