Lightside, Wendy Ford was her name in the Corps (I only mention her full name because she freely uses it on that referenced site). She was in rez for a very short time, as I recall. Of course, alfakat will have the dates, duration, eye color and food preferences...The Man With A Memory.
We had a girl/woman in our corps that totally flipped out during lightbearers our last year. She was beautiful, her brother was in the 11th corps, married and one of the "leaders". I don't know if he was in the "inner circle". NE way his younger sister came back from lb totally wigged out. My )then)wife Linda tried to talk to her but Pat Lynn segregated her from the rest of us. She had some kinda breakdown.. No one was ever told what exactly happened to her and she ended up not graduating and just "disappered".
During lb the corpse coordinators visted the teams out on the field. D--e B-d--- visited our team. Hit on my wife in a big way. She thought she had done something to provoke or encourage it... she was totally wigged out but it wasn't as blatent as vpw in the coach. That woulda got him an *** whuppin... as I'm sure he knew.
So what happened to my corpse sister??? makes you go hmmmmmmm??? Sh ewas never black balled, accused of possession etc, I think "they" knew better.
Damn damn damn damn damn... if I had only known!! Geesh I like to think I woulda stood up at lunch and called em out but I don't know that I woulda... maybe?
Yeah ex10 your dad and brother Pat woulda made some damn short work of pp I mean vp. He didn't dare try that **** with you. I could just see Pat Jr.... How's he doing anyway?
Lying (plagarizing and failing to credit other people's works)
Condemnation and Judgmentalism (failing to forgive and forget other people's shortcomings)
Craig Martindale's sins:
Adultery
Lying
Condemnation
Judgmentalism
Elitism
False teaching.
The list above is in no way a complete list. I had no problem forgiving Dr. Wierwille for his plagarism and making up stories to enhance his credibility. Those things are easily forgiven. It is harder to forgive his condemning people for things outside of their control, such as blaming someone for someone else's death. I thank God for Dr. Wierwille for teaching the Word, even if some of it wasn't accurate.
Craig Martindale also engaged in adultery. Yet the hypocrisy goes much further in his case. Craig gave into lustful temptations and yet railed against homosexuals when the spiritual influences of lust and homosexual are very closely related. His adulterous acts basically invited the homosexual spiritual influences to take root inside TWI. That is hypocrisy.
Craig forsake God's Word and made Dr. Wierwille teachings equivalent to the Word, until he believed that his own ideas and beliefs were equivalent to the Word. The "Athletes of the Spirit" Production presented Craig as superior to Jesus Christ. The prides comes before the fall. Craig's ego far surpassed VP's.
Craig was confronted on numerous fronts regarding his wrongdoings and wrong teachings. He did not heed reproof. John Schoenheit shows from the Word that adultery is sin. Craig ignored that, and look what happened to Craig. He got sued for sexual harassment. Look at the fruits of Craig's actions.
Craig was confronted on other areas, but rejected Godly reproof. Craig stole TWI from those who wanted to believe God's Word more than commit to an organization. People did not leave TWI, Craig stole it from them because of his sin, his failure to restore his life back to the Word.
Craig went further in mistreating believers with his Mark and Avoid teaching. Bearing false witness against a brother or sister in Christ is a sin. Teaching wrong doctrine is a sin.
Craig damaged the reputation of many believers, fractionalized the body of believers, taught wrong doctrine, commit sins of lust and coercion upon many God-fearing women, and usurped God's authority by setting up himself as the authority. Craig mentally and verbally abused people.
Yet, had Craig simply acknowledged his mistakes back in 1987, I would have been happy to have continued to be a part of TWI. Craig chose to continue in error and sin. Was that greater than Dr. Wierwille's sins. In deliberately causing harm to believers, I say yes.
Well, it occurs to me that there really was a kind of great divide between people who were in the corps or on staff, and the masses of people who just went to or lead a twig. They rarely got the chance to see the "top leadership" up close and personal. Plus there were so many wonderful, loving, kind souls involved who really did reach out to people. I can certainly understand how hard it is for them to accept and believe the crap. Sheesh, I was there and I was clueless! for a while, anyway.
Al, DB went after my best friend in-rez as well. Sheesh. By the way, all my brothers are doing very well, as is Mom. Thanks for asking. :)-->
Ex's dad was a college football player (who looked every bit the part) for Heaven's sake. Though he was a most gentle soul, I wouldn't want to be the one he found out was messing around his little girl. OOh! Makes me hurt just thinking about it.
I was out of TWI before Martindale took office (though I'd heard that he was next in line). I can tell you that most of the doctrines and practices you speak of originated with VPW. Wierwille came up with the Athletes doctrine, LCM just put himself in the starring role that was originally danced by someone else. Wierwille was isolating and telling tales about people under the "mark and avoid" scripture, Martindale just made it a catchword. Wierwille hated the Jews, homosexuals, federal government, and anyone else he took a dislike to (his temper was legendary at Headquarters); Martindale just mouthed off in public more often.
IMHO, Wierwille was more cunning -- Martindale was just a jerk!
The evil practices of the craigmonster and company COULD NOT have existed without the precedent set by VP.
Maybe somebody else remembers better than I do, but didn't VP teach in PFAL that wrong doctrine preceeds wrong practice? According to VP's own standards, the evil practice that existed in TWI couldn't have, without the wrong doctrine, taught and promulgated.
You practice something wrong long enough, you start making a doctrine out of it.
Of course, in real life, it's reciprocal. It's kind of a chicken-egg relationship. Which comes first? Doctrinal error or practical error? The answer is... yes!
I generally have avoided discussions about Wierwille's sexual sins, because to me they seem a distraction from a more fundamental fact about Wierwille: Wierwille was a false teacher who raised his mouth against normative biblical Christianity, and against the revealed Christ of Scripture--whose eternal existence and deity Wierwille denied.
It seems appropriate, however, in response to your characterization of Wierwille's collection of sins as being less extensive and constituting something less egregious than Martindale's collection of sins, to point out that Wierwille--while he was in his fifties--was repeatedly attempting to seduce teenage girls, and reportedly practicing preemptive defamation against some who turned away his sexual advances.
In my cynical opinion, it is no tragedy that you and others around here had Martindale ruin the TWI-experience for you.
[This message was edited by Cynic on January 02, 2004 at 21:56.]
I didn't know VP, but I think the people I knew were attracted to people who were open to that type of stuff. Not that you were, and not that you weren't hot, but really. Please.
"Could we please get rid of these silly trees? I can't see stuff . . .
Can I say that I'm "....ed"??? When are we all going to take some responsibility???
We are taken advantage of when we LET ourselves be taken advantage of.
I was hurt, too -- extremely hurt. But guess what. . . I still had a mind of my own and KNEW BETTER but I LIKED being with the MOG.
Personally, I think Wierwille is to blame for the whole damn thing -- what a jerk. Craig loved Wierwille like we loved Craig. It goes from generation to generation just like in a regular old family."
And
"I think that by the time the MOG had (allegedley) "perfected" it, he could do things "spriritually" like on a Sunday night teaching tape reach people like me who lived miles away! Just on a tape! I remember the first time I was stimulated just by listening to a Sunday teaching tape while out WOW -- it spooked me, but I was a gal who was prone to that anyway."
"But honestly, I WANTED to be with him. He never forced me to do anything. My goof was to "love" him emotionally. Couldn't get past that part. And really, I think I still do and probably always will."
Talk about oh please!!!!!!
Go back to your wine and your SNS tape, sounds like a wonderful date for you.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on January 03, 2004 at 5:48.]
I don't listen to SNS tapes or anything else from the way. Haven't for almost 4 years now. I haven't been able to even talk about what happened to me until now and even now it's a little scary.
But at least I'm talking. I apologize for being mean. I'm still healing.
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TheEvan
Lightside, Wendy Ford was her name in the Corps (I only mention her full name because she freely uses it on that referenced site). She was in rez for a very short time, as I recall. Of course, alfakat will have the dates, duration, eye color and food preferences...The Man With A Memory.
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha the evan !!!!! i used to have one of those !!!!!
?
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Al Poole
We had a girl/woman in our corps that totally flipped out during lightbearers our last year. She was beautiful, her brother was in the 11th corps, married and one of the "leaders". I don't know if he was in the "inner circle". NE way his younger sister came back from lb totally wigged out. My )then)wife Linda tried to talk to her but Pat Lynn segregated her from the rest of us. She had some kinda breakdown.. No one was ever told what exactly happened to her and she ended up not graduating and just "disappered".
During lb the corpse coordinators visted the teams out on the field. D--e B-d--- visited our team. Hit on my wife in a big way. She thought she had done something to provoke or encourage it... she was totally wigged out but it wasn't as blatent as vpw in the coach. That woulda got him an *** whuppin... as I'm sure he knew.
So what happened to my corpse sister??? makes you go hmmmmmmm??? Sh ewas never black balled, accused of possession etc, I think "they" knew better.
Damn damn damn damn damn... if I had only known!! Geesh I like to think I woulda stood up at lunch and called em out but I don't know that I woulda... maybe?
Yeah ex10 your dad and brother Pat woulda made some damn short work of pp I mean vp. He didn't dare try that **** with you. I could just see Pat Jr.... How's he doing anyway?
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brewmands9
Dr. Wierwille's sins:
Adultery
Lying (plagarizing and failing to credit other people's works)
Condemnation and Judgmentalism (failing to forgive and forget other people's shortcomings)
Craig Martindale's sins:
Adultery
Lying
Condemnation
Judgmentalism
Elitism
False teaching.
The list above is in no way a complete list. I had no problem forgiving Dr. Wierwille for his plagarism and making up stories to enhance his credibility. Those things are easily forgiven. It is harder to forgive his condemning people for things outside of their control, such as blaming someone for someone else's death. I thank God for Dr. Wierwille for teaching the Word, even if some of it wasn't accurate.
Craig Martindale also engaged in adultery. Yet the hypocrisy goes much further in his case. Craig gave into lustful temptations and yet railed against homosexuals when the spiritual influences of lust and homosexual are very closely related. His adulterous acts basically invited the homosexual spiritual influences to take root inside TWI. That is hypocrisy.
Craig forsake God's Word and made Dr. Wierwille teachings equivalent to the Word, until he believed that his own ideas and beliefs were equivalent to the Word. The "Athletes of the Spirit" Production presented Craig as superior to Jesus Christ. The prides comes before the fall. Craig's ego far surpassed VP's.
Craig was confronted on numerous fronts regarding his wrongdoings and wrong teachings. He did not heed reproof. John Schoenheit shows from the Word that adultery is sin. Craig ignored that, and look what happened to Craig. He got sued for sexual harassment. Look at the fruits of Craig's actions.
Craig was confronted on other areas, but rejected Godly reproof. Craig stole TWI from those who wanted to believe God's Word more than commit to an organization. People did not leave TWI, Craig stole it from them because of his sin, his failure to restore his life back to the Word.
Craig went further in mistreating believers with his Mark and Avoid teaching. Bearing false witness against a brother or sister in Christ is a sin. Teaching wrong doctrine is a sin.
Craig damaged the reputation of many believers, fractionalized the body of believers, taught wrong doctrine, commit sins of lust and coercion upon many God-fearing women, and usurped God's authority by setting up himself as the authority. Craig mentally and verbally abused people.
Yet, had Craig simply acknowledged his mistakes back in 1987, I would have been happy to have continued to be a part of TWI. Craig chose to continue in error and sin. Was that greater than Dr. Wierwille's sins. In deliberately causing harm to believers, I say yes.
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ex10
Well, it occurs to me that there really was a kind of great divide between people who were in the corps or on staff, and the masses of people who just went to or lead a twig. They rarely got the chance to see the "top leadership" up close and personal. Plus there were so many wonderful, loving, kind souls involved who really did reach out to people. I can certainly understand how hard it is for them to accept and believe the crap. Sheesh, I was there and I was clueless! for a while, anyway.
Al, DB went after my best friend in-rez as well. Sheesh. By the way, all my brothers are doing very well, as is Mom. Thanks for asking.
:)-->
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Sudo
Al,
Ex's dad was a college football player (who looked every bit the part) for Heaven's sake. Though he was a most gentle soul, I wouldn't want to be the one he found out was messing around his little girl. OOh! Makes me hurt just thinking about it.
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Raf
Brewmands,
Just where did you think LCM got his elitism and false teaching from?
Wierwille, who forgot more about the holy spirit than other Christians will ever know? Nah, no elitism there.
Wierwille, who taught it was the FEAR in the HEART and LIFE of that MOTHER that killed that child? Nope, no false doctrine there.
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excathedra
craiggers lacked "sophistication"
?
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shazdancer
Hi brewmands!
I was out of TWI before Martindale took office (though I'd heard that he was next in line). I can tell you that most of the doctrines and practices you speak of originated with VPW. Wierwille came up with the Athletes doctrine, LCM just put himself in the starring role that was originally danced by someone else. Wierwille was isolating and telling tales about people under the "mark and avoid" scripture, Martindale just made it a catchword. Wierwille hated the Jews, homosexuals, federal government, and anyone else he took a dislike to (his temper was legendary at Headquarters); Martindale just mouthed off in public more often.
IMHO, Wierwille was more cunning -- Martindale was just a jerk!
Hope that helps you,
Shaz
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ex10
The evil practices of the craigmonster and company COULD NOT have existed without the precedent set by VP.
Maybe somebody else remembers better than I do, but didn't VP teach in PFAL that wrong doctrine preceeds wrong practice? According to VP's own standards, the evil practice that existed in TWI couldn't have, without the wrong doctrine, taught and promulgated.
So even VP's own teaching condemns him!
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yophoto
ex10
ya got it backwards
Wrong practice leads to excusing it by eventually making it a doctrine.
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ex10
Ooops. Oh well. I tried.
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Raf
Yophoto,
Welcome to the Cafe. How do you take your coffee?
I concur with your memory:
You practice something wrong long enough, you start making a doctrine out of it.
Of course, in real life, it's reciprocal. It's kind of a chicken-egg relationship. Which comes first? Doctrinal error or practical error? The answer is... yes!
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Dot Matrix
Shaz
"IMHO, Wierwille was more cunning -- Martindale was just a jerk!"
Ditto
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Steve!
So John Yophoto, are you still "in"?
I'm sure you can add some insight into these threads!
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wyteduv58
Someone said to me that LCM was VPW's Frankenstien!!!!!!!
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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def59
I think we need Mike now to offer some balance
or maybe Galen.?
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Cynic
brewmands9,
I generally have avoided discussions about Wierwille's sexual sins, because to me they seem a distraction from a more fundamental fact about Wierwille: Wierwille was a false teacher who raised his mouth against normative biblical Christianity, and against the revealed Christ of Scripture--whose eternal existence and deity Wierwille denied.
It seems appropriate, however, in response to your characterization of Wierwille's collection of sins as being less extensive and constituting something less egregious than Martindale's collection of sins, to point out that Wierwille--while he was in his fifties--was repeatedly attempting to seduce teenage girls, and reportedly practicing preemptive defamation against some who turned away his sexual advances.
In my cynical opinion, it is no tragedy that you and others around here had Martindale ruin the TWI-experience for you.
[This message was edited by Cynic on January 02, 2004 at 21:56.]
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WordWolf
vpw was the Pharisee,
and lcm was the student that he made
"twice the child of hell" that he was.
vpw and lcm were not different in SUBSTANCE,
only in STYLE.
Those who were closer to "backstage" are well familiar with vpw's vices
(love of luxury and being feted everywhere he went, his love of
alcohol and tobacco, the sex maniac stuff) and his shortcomings
(his wrath whenever things weren't JUST the way he wanted, the evils
of anyone in power other than him, the evils of all other Christian
leaders) than people who only saw the image he projected on tape and
during public events.
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Sunny1
Hello, Wordwolf.
I didn't VP only LCM. But I understand what you mean. LCM did learn from VP -- he was his prize student. I think that is why he won his position.
Plus, LCM loved him -- I think, more than anyone else did.
I like you. Don't know you, but I like you. . . I think.
S
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Sunny1
To Dot Matrix and Excathedra (hope I spelled that right):
I'm sorry you were so hurt, but really, if you read your posts from an "outsider's" view you would see how full of yourselves you are.
I mean, really. . . "you're hot" "no, you're hot" "no, you're hot". Please.
I didn't know VP, but I think the people I knew were attracted to people who were open to that type of stuff. Not that you were, and not that you weren't hot, but really. Please.
S1
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Dot Matrix
phock you sunny
No, we both said we were average -- perhaps you were hitting the bottle again? eh?
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on January 03, 2004 at 8:32.]
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Dot Matrix
"Could we please get rid of these silly trees? I can't see stuff . . .
Can I say that I'm "....ed"??? When are we all going to take some responsibility???
We are taken advantage of when we LET ourselves be taken advantage of.
I was hurt, too -- extremely hurt. But guess what. . . I still had a mind of my own and KNEW BETTER but I LIKED being with the MOG.
Personally, I think Wierwille is to blame for the whole damn thing -- what a jerk. Craig loved Wierwille like we loved Craig. It goes from generation to generation just like in a regular old family."
And
"I think that by the time the MOG had (allegedley) "perfected" it, he could do things "spriritually" like on a Sunday night teaching tape reach people like me who lived miles away! Just on a tape! I remember the first time I was stimulated just by listening to a Sunday teaching tape while out WOW -- it spooked me, but I was a gal who was prone to that anyway."
"But honestly, I WANTED to be with him. He never forced me to do anything. My goof was to "love" him emotionally. Couldn't get past that part. And really, I think I still do and probably always will."
Talk about oh please!!!!!!
Go back to your wine and your SNS tape, sounds like a wonderful date for you.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on January 03, 2004 at 5:48.]
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Sunny1
I don't listen to SNS tapes or anything else from the way. Haven't for almost 4 years now. I haven't been able to even talk about what happened to me until now and even now it's a little scary.
But at least I'm talking. I apologize for being mean. I'm still healing.
S1
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