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Twinky
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I would like to see if any of you have any advice about the happy couple and their present "relationship."

Tuxedo you may recall is the bigger cat. Crypto is about 2/3 her size. They both like to play but Tuxy can be rougher and can push Crypto over quite easily. Crypto acts scared of Tuxy. They generally tolerate each other but aren't particular friends, and never curl up together. Tuxy is generally the ring leader, and Crypto will follow once she sees nothing awful has happened to Tuxy.

But last night and today it has been complete turn-around. Crypto has had several goes at Tuxy and Tuxy is cringing away in fright, even to the point where she will not approach the food bowls (and she loves her food!) because Crypto is there. Tuxy has skulked on a chair under the table and Crypto is on the floor near the table glaring at Tuxy with the meanest look in her eye. She has chased her round the house several times. This is most unCrypto like behavior.

After an aggressive day today, there is a lull in hostilities this evening. C has approached T and allowed T to lick her head and ears (C seems to like this, on a regular basis) but T has done it warily. Tuxy will not now allow me to fondle her much - just the briefest stroke of the head. I stroked down her flanks and she permitted this down one side but will not down the other - I managed it once and think I may have felt something, a lump perhaps, but she will not let me near that side any more. (Oops, a hitting session both ways just taking place.) They are ---

I must go - war is happening.

...T is now back on the chair under the table and C is in the middle of the kitchen floor looking cross.

At a guess, T "played" with C last night but a little too aggressively and hurt C and C is still upset and determined to get her own back today. But it may well be something completely different.

I am pleased that C is "standing up for herself" but she is doing more than just defending herself - she is actively seeking occasion to chase, hit and generally intimidate Tuxy. It is so very out of character that it is alarming.

I haven't done anything different to or for them. They haven't been outside for the last couple of days but going out is new for them. I was dosing C with Mimulus which is supposed to reduce timidity, but she hasn't had any of that for several days either.

Suggestions? Comments? Should I be pleased or worried? If worried - for which one of them?

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It's spring. Hormones are in the air. Even if your darlings are spayed, there's a good chance that one or both of them are reacting to some male in the area who has sprayed your yard.

You may ask yourself how I know this... as well you should.

One of my kitties (the most timid one) has turned psycho and started attacking the others. I brought her to the vet who gave me some kitty hormones to get them through this time.

I'm also going to get some Rescue Remedy.

If that doesn't work I'm going to look up some crockpot recipes for cat. Keep an eye out in the kitchen forum. ;)

Edited by doojable
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Well, I found out what the thing was in Tuxedo's flank, actually her shoulder, when I managed to capture Tuxedo today. I found this hard thing in her fur and pulled at it - it's a claw, or sort of fingernail thing, you know, that cats rip off. But whether it belongs to Tuxy or to Crypto is impossible to tell. There didn't feel to be any scab nearby which might indicate a tear or rip in the skin.

They are still both in a funny mood today. Almost like they have switched personalities. Tuxy is very jumpy and hardly comes near me. Crypto, on the contrary, wants fondles, or at least is not so averse to fondles.

Maybe you're right, Dooj, it's their hormones gone awry. I'm interested in your crockpot remedies!

Though they may not be acceptable to this pair, unless they are Go-Cat goulash or similar.

They turned up their noses at bits of steak last night, they won't eat fish (well salmon anyway).

Tuxy loves liver; Crypto loves ham. Anything else gets stalked away from.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The kitties have been out several times now. They just stay in the lower part of the garden and explore. Crypto loves to roll on the concrete and lie in the sun. Tuxy is more exploratory. Crypto has, however, ventured as far as my car and sniffed at the wheels - car is on hardstanding just at the edge of my property. Mostly I have had them out in broad daylight, lunchtime or early afternoon, but a couple of times recently I've allowed them out in the evening. They are much more active then. Tame-ish blackbirds come to feed on my lawn and they landed yesterday - Tuxy was all a-stealth and stalking them (I'd never have let her come close).

I have got quite confident and left the back door open one afternoon - let them roam at will for half an hour or perhaps an hour while I was in another room with no sight of the garden. But they came in of their own volition, in their own time.

I have a worry, though. Since I've been letting them out - this might be coincidental - but Crypto has been getting quite aggressive towards Tuxy. The other evening she hid under a bench - being completely black, she can't be seen - and when Tuxy walked past, she ran out and attacked her. She wasn't playing, this seemed quite serious. Crypto often growls or hisses at Tuxy and has taken to baling her up on a chair under the table, or in a corner. Tuxy is developing quite a wary look in her eye. This behavior takes place both outside the house and inside - it's not confined to excursions into the garden.

Tuxy is fundamentally a needy cat, likes company, enjoys a fondle on her terms, and is non-aggressive. She is bigger and much more boisterous than Crypto and can push her about easily. She comes, more or less, when called, and a firm "Tuxy, no!" will have her ceasing immediately any undesired behavior.

Crypto is a more self-contained cat, responds if she feels like it to her name and to instructions, is still basically unhandled though she now allows a scratch of the neck and a stroke along the body. She is very timid and hides at unusual or strange things, or at visitors, or if I move too quickly. But this hissing, attacking Tuxy, growling at her and the malevolent look in the eye - all this is new and disconcerting. If I call to her, I might get a flick of the tail by way of response, but she won't come back.

I wonder if, now that they are allowed out, she is trying to drive Tuxy away?

Or is she just developing her own personality, now that she feels she has more space?

Or is this is her real personality coming out? She's like a completely different animal.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, the girlies are really settling well, with going out.

Tuxy loves to be outside but she stays nicely in the garden, and more or less comes when called. If she want to go out she has taken to yelling at me and looking meaningfully at the door.

Crypto is as often to be found inside as out. She goes out for a while then comes back in and stays in. But today she had an adventure. She must have slipped out without my realising. I was pottering about the house for some time (hours) - went downstairs, and there was this miaow, quite loud, from outside. I looked out and there was Crypto, with an anxious look on her face. When I let her in, she ran all around, and is skulking behind furniture. Perhaps she thinks she is in bad books.

They seem to be behaving a little better towards each other. Crypto's temporary aggression seems to have settled down.

They both come to me much more for a little fondle. That's quite satisfying. They (Tuxy in particulary) like to be near me when I work in the garden.

They like eating my lawn. I am wondering if I can train them - like sheep. Grazing cats, LOL!

I am not sure if they have discovered the joys of soil (real soil) for excretory purposes. I don't see any little piles of earth in the garden. Plenty in the litter tray (!).

I'm almost getting the cats I want...if only they would consent to sit on my lap!

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Am quite pleased with how things are progressing.

Cats especially Tuxedo love to be outside. And return quite readily when called.

However, I was away overnight recently and Crypto slunk outside when I hadn't noticed. She ended up spending a whole night outside fending for herself.

Gosh, she was pleased to see me when I got home. She didn't rush down the garden path when called, but appeared soon after. And if she goes out now, she doesn't stray far from the door. If I've closed the door, she looks anxiously at it (and at me, in the kitchen or wherever) in case she gets locked out again. She so dislikes being outside on her own!

Tuxy has taken to yelling at me, in order to persuade me to open the back door and let her roam about outside.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey Twinky,

It is funny how these critters can communicate their needs to us. This morning I was sitting cross-legged on the floor in front of my laptop. . . half reading---half getting ready to leave. . . all the cats were in the bedroom with me. . . all three as usual.

Chandler, my orange tabby, the old guy. . . tried to get the shut door open. He couldn't manage it as it was shut tight. He turned around and came over to me and looked me in the eye and I swear he formed a sentence. He asked me to let him out. He waited for me to get up from the floor and walked with me to the door.

He purrped as he left. . . as if to say thanks.

We are having a difficult time keeping Dickie in the house. We don't like them outside because of fisher cats. . . and other wild animals.

Yesterday hubby and I were walking to the car and Dickie rounded the corner and started talking. Twinky, the wide-eyed questioning look on his face and the string of Meows had me in stitches. I swear to you he said "HEY! Where are you going?"

These cats are a hoot. They come up every night about the same time to go to sleep at the foot of our bed. We have a Kitty cookie jar in our room filled with treats and they all know they get a few before bed. If I forget they go to the jar and yell.

Onslow. . . I call him my "Special Ed" kitty waits for me to pull back the covers and then comes up when we get in bed. . . he gets special petting time for a bit. The other night I was up late on the computer and he was waiting and waiting for me. Finially he just started this insistent meow. Sure enough, when I got up and got in bed. . . he came up quiet and purring. That is all he wanted.

Chandler has become a bit of a celebrity in certain circles. The kids take video of him and put it on facebook. People comment and all know Chandler. Too funny.

They do make their needs known and the more I pay attention. . . the more I see how very much they do communicate.

Onslow too got trapped outside once. He spent the night in the Yews under the kitchen windows. He doesn't even try to get out now. Dickie on the other hand is a MASTER escape artist. We just got all our screens back from rescreening with enforced mesh. . . it is suppose to be cat proof. We will see, Dickie should have been the test kitty.

I love to read about your cats. . . thanks and glad to hear they are doing well!!

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"Dickie the test kitty" - LOL! And can you add some video of Chandler here?

My mum's cat used to follow her round the village, running from hedge bottom to hedge bottom following mum. Mum would walk up the hill with my dad (depending on what shift he was on) - he would push his bike, and they would stroll up the hill. Kitty would be lurking around behind them observing. Then when mum came home, Kitty would skip through hedges, following mum till in a final spurt she was sitting on the doorstep when mum got home.

But all of our family cats (of which many) have had great personalities.

My two - yes, even Crypto - have taken to yelling at me if I don't let them out. They love to go out and roll and wriggle on the warm concrete. They have their fave places to lurk in the garden. It has been really hot lately and as often as not they are in the house where it is cooler.

About 10 days ago, it was raining, only lightly, but nonetheless wet. They stood in the doorway gazing out and then turned and glared at me. Clearly the rain was all my fault.

I may need to fit the cat door, though they are both too stupid to work out how to open the proper door if it is left ajar, so how long it would take them to manage the cat door is questionable. Trouble is, if I fit the cat door, no way of keeping other cats out. No way of fitting a little magnetic collar to either of my two.

They love to be out at dusk. They chase the moths. They are really acrobatic in their leaps. No doubt they will learn that a moth 4ft up in the air isn't likely a successful catch.

If they are out in the day, they like the kitchen door left open. But that's not what I want (an invitation to burglars?) so I close it. And these two little faces will peer at me through the glass in the door - their expressions of bewilderment, abandonment, fear, horror, clearly writ for all to see.

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  • 4 weeks later...

We have a new Scardy cat... well not entirely new but a new semi feral kitty. he is another tuxie.. he does not have a name yet I am toying with Hank and Buster but nothing is settled yet. He still will need to be captured and made to sing soprano.

He is another six toed cat and i would not be surprised if he doesn't have the same mom and dad as our Bongo. He is so close in markings and body shape and the six toed thing.

Any way thought I would throw this out there. I am not sure when i will have a picture of him he is so illusive.

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  • 2 weeks later...

my eyes aren't yet focussed enough this morning to read this whole thread so i don't know if it's been said yet but scaredy cats or any scaredy pet cannot be looked at directly at first because they see it as a challenge, which it kind of is in a mild kind of way, but it sounds like you're making great progress so keep up the good work and they will keep training you until you get it right to their complete satisfaction. :)

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Some more firsts, here.

I got one of those feeder things that has a clockwork timer on it. Filled the little trays and shut it. Provided an extra big bowl of water. Put down a clean extra litter tray Made no other provision for them (ie, didn't ask neighbor to call in and feed them and empty the litter tray). Stayed away from home overnight.

Got home yesterday and the d@mn feeder lids hadn't opened. That means tht the kitties had had no food for - it would be about 36 hours.

I thought they would hate me but surprisingly they weren't even very bothered when I put some food down. And because they hadn't eaten much, the litter trays were scarcely used.

While I was away I managed to get some peacock feathers (this pub has about 1/2 dozen peacocks just wandering about). One of the feathers is about 5 feet long and has a sort of pointy reverse arrowhead at the end. The spine of this enormous feather is both very strong and very whippy. So I can dangle the "arrowhead" in the air, and waft it around, and wiggle it all over the floor behind chairs and things. It is a most excellent toy and they clearly both love it. They played (with me) with it for nearly 2 hours last night, which must be something of a record. When I got up this morning, there were peacock feathers all over the place. They had grabbed them for themselves and played with them.

Third "first". Crypto is getting much more touchable and likes to come and rub near me and sometimes invites me to fondle her head or neck or allows me to stroke her. She was friendly this morning so I grabbed her and sat her on my lap for a couple of minutes. She was as usual terrified and couldn't wait to get away...but she wasn't quite as terrified as she has been in the past. This time she only leapt onto the floor. Other times she has run up the wall (!).

Taming these two is only marginally more exciting than watching paint dry on a cold day. However, we are getting there. Incy wincy little bit by incy wincy little bit.

Leafy, all you need now is some peacock feathers....

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, at last I have found a use for cabbage while butterflies. They are an endless source of joy and delight to two black cats. Not just cabbage whites, either, but the pretty tortoiseshells and other butterflies. And flies. And wasps and bees.

They are both avid hunters, but Crypto is terrifying. She just doesn't want to admit defeat and really goes for it. Tuxy enjoys but gets a bit bored and finds it not so exciting as lying around. Crypto grabs her prey and then rushes into the kitchen with wings sticking out of her mouth, to eat her critter or play with it on my kitchen runner (mat). It's good to see them enjoying life and "catty" pursuits but I don't fancy either of them bringing other prey (small rodents or birds) into the house. Like a small mouse that then escapes.

Can I deter her from bringing home the bacon (as it were), do you think? How? If she can be deterred - should I deter her?

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In my experience there is no way to deter them from bringing in Vermin... other than me catching said vemin and putting the vermin in the witn3ess protection program for their release back into the great out doors.

This worked with most of our cats but Lilac is determined to bring all lizards and mice and baby sparrows and house wrens into our house still alive. No amount of removal and release stops her. but the rest figured it out in rapid fashion.. killing all large prey outside or in the back porch room!(i now have re dubbed it the killing field)

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bringing in their prey is a sign that you've established a "pride" and yourself as leader and they are doing what they instinctually do and that is bring all prey to the leader. the only way to stop them from bringing the prey indoors to your "den" will be to establish a different "den" location or different leader. the first would have you living outdoors and the second would have them ignoring you in just about every way except to fight you over food if they feel you have fallen below them in order of significance, and since you don't hunt then your only hope would be to feed them outside or to not let them inside at all. they seem to be "playing" to us when they are chasing after bugs and things but the hunt for them is for food and food is for survival and that throws back to their natural state which is living in a pride and respecting the authority of that pride. throwing the prey outside is a sign to them that you have had all you want and they are now allowed to have the rest. if you just scoop it up and throw it away you will make them trash kitties because then they will think that is where you the leader want them to eat their prey and they will go after it in the trash so don't get that started unless you want to have to hide all your trash containers where they can't get to them, but if you do that then they will smell it and scratch and claw and rowrl and whatever until you let them have their share. really this is a good thing because you have established that you are the one to listen to and respect so training them from here on out should go quickly and you'll have alot more fun with them if you remember you're the leader.

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In my experience there is no way to deter them from bringing in Vermin... other than me catching said vemin and putting the vermin in the witn3ess protection program for their release back into the great out doors.

This worked with most of our cats but Lilac is determined to bring all lizards and mice and baby sparrows and house wrens into our house still alive. No amount of removal and release stops her. but the rest figured it out in rapid fashion.. killing all large prey outside or in the back porch room!(i now have re dubbed it the killing field)

We had a cat named "Chubby" who used to bring in live animals. One night I woke up to this growling noise. Chubby had climbed to the second story bedroom window. . . broken a screen and brought a live RABBIT into the house. He was not content to kill it on the floor. He had it on our bed. With us in the bed.

Hubby, who wears glasses was fumbling for the light and then his glasses(he is blind as a bat) I am screaming and dancing around on the bed. . . Chubby is trying to kill the rabbit. . . . it was comical in the extreme. Not as funny as chicken stuck to hubby's head. . . but. . . close.

We chased that cat around until he let go of the rabbit. . . . then the rabbit took off into the house. . . it took awhile to catch the rabbit. . . let it go. . . and somehow keep that determined cat away.

Cat's are so much fun.

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Geisha, I do love your funny cat stories!!

...So I am a den leader. They definitely do "respect" me as the boss. They come and miawl at me when they think it's feeding time, whenever they have a need - usually food or please clean the litter tray - Tuxy mews at me after she has used the litter tray (she never covers her leavings, ugh, very stinky).

I do not yet have a cat door and don't fancy dealing with dead uninvited guests when the girlies get better at predation.

When I was a teenager, one night about 11pm there was a noise in the bedroom window, the top light of which was just ajar. On investigation, Ginger our cat was found blinking at one side of the window sill, and one of next door's pigeons was the other side of the window sill. The cat had captured the pigeon, jumped several fences (or hedges), climbed onto a flat roof, jumped a gap of about 3 feet onto a narrow ledge, and then scrambled up about 3 feet of window to climb through the open light.

Cat and pigeon both survived.

Next door neighbor was in hot pursuit (knocking on the front door) and was seriously angry.

Crypto (the little one) has made a few runs at woodpigeons, so far unsuccessfully. They fly off, laughing at her.

Tuxy sees that they are quite large and wisely decides to lie in the sun instead.

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  • 1 month later...

Well! I actually picked up and fondled Crypto today. She is so very light, such a tiny cat. Feels just like skin and bones. She didn't like it but didn't fight me. Previously, she has fought, struggled, absolutely terrified. Today I fell upon her and had her on my lap before she had time to realize. I managed to weigh her (carried upstairs, weight noted with and without her), and also groomed her a little. I got a growl from her at one time (Tuxy came running to see what was going on), and also some minutes later while she was crouching on my lap, Tuxy sneaked up under the table, reached up and hit Crypto!

It's the longest I have held her - several minutes - and I gave her a bowl of biscuits as a reward. She fled, though.

She didn't enjoy it at all, but then, to begin with neither did Tuxy, but T enjoys it now.

A success, however, compared with other attempts to pick Crypto up.

Crypto is nothing like as jumpy as Tuxedo. She is very shy but once she had made up her mind that she liked being stroked, she will approach me and seemingly ask for a stroke or two. She especially loves being stroked with a feather. A hand can still be a little scary sometimes.

As for Tuxy - she never volunteers to be fondled and makes a token struggle, and then nestles down happily on my lap, purring and moving her head this way and that so that she will be fondled just where she wants. She does that needling thing, massaging my arm and if my sweater sleeve is thin, leaving my arm looking like I have some nasty rash. She rather enjoys being groomed.

Edited cos the typeface changed size inexplicably, to microscopic, half way through the post.

Edited by Twinky
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I would welcome suggestions on this problem:

Tuxy seems to have a urinary problem. She has always been a cat that drinks a lot and wees a lot.

Recently I got some supermarket generic cat biscuits which the cats ate for a few days but soon declined and refused to eat. However, since then, Tuxy seems to have a bit of a wee-ing problem. She goes to the litter box and sits on it, but seems to discharge very little. Most unusually, she will go to the box, often when I'm sitting on the loo myself (the cat box is in the bathroom) - not the sort of thing she likes to do. She visits the tray frequently but there is little to show for it.

Some checks on the web have suggested that cheaper cat biscuits cause crystals to form in their bladders.

I've tried offering wet food (tinned). Won't touch supermarket generic; won't touch tinned Felix though will nibble at sachet Felix. With wet food, actually she just licks up the gravy or jelly and leaves the chunks (daren't really call it "meat").

All she likes (will) eat is Go-Cat. She didn't have any problem when I had her eating just Go-Cat but after a week back on that she is still apparently having trouble.

She is still a difficult cat to catch so regular dosing is likely to be difficult. I have never tried medicating either of them; except when I first had them I used some of the Bach remedies which were just drops in the drinking water.

Crypto doesn't seem to have a problem though the diet is the same. She likes and seems to prefer wet food if a choice is offered.

Suggestions as to what I can do to help Tuxy?

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I would welcome suggestions on this problem:

Tuxy seems to have a urinary problem. She has always been a cat that drinks a lot and wees a lot.

Recently I got some supermarket generic cat biscuits which the cats ate for a few days but soon declined and refused to eat. However, since then, Tuxy seems to have a bit of a wee-ing problem. She goes to the litter box and sits on it, but seems to discharge very little. Most unusually, she will go to the box, often when I'm sitting on the loo myself (the cat box is in the bathroom) - not the sort of thing she likes to do. She visits the tray frequently but there is little to show for it.

Some checks on the web have suggested that cheaper cat biscuits cause crystals to form in their bladders.

I've tried offering wet food (tinned). Won't touch supermarket generic; won't touch tinned Felix though will nibble at sachet Felix. With wet food, actually she just licks up the gravy or jelly and leaves the chunks (daren't really call it "meat").

All she likes (will) eat is Go-Cat. She didn't have any problem when I had her eating just Go-Cat but after a week back on that she is still apparently having trouble.

She is still a difficult cat to catch so regular dosing is likely to be difficult. I have never tried medicating either of them; except when I first had them I used some of the Bach remedies which were just drops in the drinking water.

Crypto doesn't seem to have a problem though the diet is the same. She likes and seems to prefer wet food if a choice is offered.

Suggestions as to what I can do to help Tuxy?

Take her to the vet do not pass go do not collect 200 $ she has a urinary infection.

They will give her antibiotics and she will get better

(((Hugs)) to you and her poor little poppet..

Regarding the wet food. I have spent a lot of time getting Little One to switch to wet food with the eventual goal of getting them onto a raw diet if possible

Little one is my "I will only eat dry" she is quite overweight and risks diabetes. so

here is what I did to start with I mixed wet and dry for a while .. go slowly. more and more wet.. when she is eating this regularly remove the dry food completely from the house.

then gradually add the raw meat in., if you should choose to go raw.

Listen do not wait to take kitty to the vet for the pee issue it can kill your kitty.

and stop feeding the dry food as soon as possible.

Here is an excellent site with info on switching to fully wet food and why

Cat Info Web site

By the way the site is written by a Veterinarian.

Edited to add it took a little over two weeks to get Little one to eat just canned.. she is doing well and has lost almost a lb so far and her hair balls are less. I hope to see that eventually go down as we move on to a partial raw diet.

Edited by leafytwiglet
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I agree. This is a urinary tract infection. She needs to see a vet. This starts out with unproductive litter visits and progresses to crying out while weeing - and blood in the urine. It can get bad VERY quickly.

I also agree with not feeding dry food to the girlies. You already know the recipe I made for years. I had the healthiest cats with the prettiest coats - for less that a premium "scientific" dry food would have cost.

The good news is that treatment is relatively easy.

Ask your vet for hints on the regular dosing - it's easy to do buy hard to describe in writing - better to see a real life demo.

Edited by doojable
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Doojie - would you mind repeating the recipe you use for your girlies, or providing a link to it? and thanks!

The recipe is simple:

60% meat/eggs - I used ground turkey and hard boiled eggs - NOT over cooked - you can make it raw - but I wasn't that brave

20% grain - I used oat bran soaked in water for 24 hours (1 part bran to 2 parts water- so if I used 1 cup of bran it would end up being 2 cups soaked)

20% raw veggies - I used zucchini and carrots - shredded in a food processor You can also use broccoli - but I only added broccoli when I had some extra

I made this in batches big enough to last a month and froze it in 3/4 cup portions in zip lock bags. I thawed it out in the fridge. They loved it. I also made up a mineral mix that lasted months - but I'd have to really search for that recipe. It included brewer's yeast, calcium powder, wheat bran, kelp, some vitamin B-12 tablets, and some other things - but I don't recall the other items and I'd have to really search for the recipe - give me some time and I'll post it.)

Edited by doojable
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