There are times, albeit rare, that this needed to be public. I am not going to tolerate someone diminishing, denying or belittling the pain of another. Disagree all you want, but you don't have the right to miscategorize or spin someone's pain. I've talked to enough eyewitnesses to know that this isn't some isolated instance. Even John Lynn agrees that the sexual behaviors of leaders, including VP, was horrendous.
You feel humiliated!!! How do you think the dozens of abused people on this board feel, when you all but tell them they are lying?
And this isn't a double standard either, I am just bringing some balance back, that''s all
Paw, I went back and re-read my posts regarding sky and they have been respectful. I even thanked her after her last post. My opinions are disagreeable on certain elements, but respectful. No diminishment of others. I've posted much worse in the past, you know that. Anyway, have a great weekend, one and all.
Let's be honest, Mike and Oldiesman are still brainwashed, White Dove- not certain. Maybe they are post-stress shock syndrone. It's not hate, it's pity. The 3 need psychiatric help quickly.
What's wrong, are the 3 of you living in Never-Never land(they run to their mommies and cry/bawling "Wah! Mr. Bumgarner is spiritually mocking us. Make him stop).I only pity you and your immaturity(including other VPW supporters/defenders). What ever happened to the(real)truth needs no defense? GSC has tried to be a healing place like AA or NA, but you have got to admit that you have a problem, otherwise you will be in bondage for the rest of your life.(I can hear you say, Frak you, so what? It's my life and if I decide one day to kill myself, well up yours). Sorry to be blunt but that;s real tough love OM, Rocky, Mike, WD, and other lurking former posters.
No you are right....we certainly don`t need a first hand eye witness expose on the evils of vpw and twi. Must keep all of that evil hidden, whitewashed and swept under the carpet so that folks aren`t faced with having to acknowledge the ominous implications of the fruit of vpw and the travesty of twi.
Nobody REALLY wants to hear the evidence that vic was not only NOT a man of God but the sleaziest of criminal perverts. His actions far more devastating and damage far reaching, than your average criminal.
If we don`t talk about the evil man whom stole from, used, injured, and in some cases even caused the death of our brothers and sisters and even went so far as to teach others to do like wise...Why, everybody can go back to pretending that they are some kind of God`s little superstars. The only possessors of God`s truth....some how just a little above all of the rest of our ignorant christian brethren. Man aren`t we just so speeecial. Dove, you are a real hero, man.
You just keep on down that well worn path that twi doctrine takes you....go ahead and keep hiding your tracks so that people can`t see where you came from. Erase the signs and remove the warnings posted that inform people of just where that path leads that try to help people avoid the snare. Oh, I understand that it is necessary to discredit the people and paths that will lead others away from the dark little world that twi doctrine confines one. It must just frustrate the stew out of you to try to shut off all of the light shined by so many refugees, that expose the danger and pitfalls that you wish would remain hidden so as to give the appearance of safety and legitimacy to the direction you travel.
I have to say, I don`t think that it will work though, there are too many of us now that have escaped the sordid mess of the path twi doctrine leads, and to the best of our ability, we are setting up road blocks, posting warning signs, taking out full page articles in newspaper, broadcasting it on the radio in attempt to warn any whom might be deceived into following that path straight to hell.
Apparently Sky, Paw and many others felt otherwise Oldies.
Come monday. how about you *man up* and apologize and try to understand why your words are repugnant and hurtfull, why they would be disturbing. Honestly?? I think that you know. I think that you like to upset people. You carefully couch your words so that you can administer the most offense and then cry *foul* when people are offended.
You aren`t the wounded party here. You aren`t being persecuted. You have simply been called on the carpet for playing your little games.
The thing is...for those that lived through this stuff...it isn`t a game, a mental challenge to try to *one up* the person on the other side of the argument, to bitch slap a fellow poster and then run high five all of your buddies who agree with you.
It is about healing and overcoming, it is about learning to think and understand, to make sense of our pasts in order to avoid having it affect our futures. It`s about telling the other side of the story. If you cannot be an active part of that, I certainly can understand, but it isn`t fair to interfere with the good that is being accomplished in other peoples lives.
I say these words with nor rancor, npr wishing you any ill will. I just wish that for a moment, I wish that you could set aside your argument, and see through someone elses eyes for a change, the effect of your words, the pain that you inflict in the name of your cause.
oldiesman after reading what you said to sunesis, i will never look at you the same way. i think i said something like that recently, i just didn't know i could feel even more strongly about it, but i do
Perhaps posts like it are long overdue when a poster has behaved poorly in public over extended
periods of time, and refused to heed calls for compassion, reason, or Christian virtues.
(Matthew 18:16-17)
Apparently, some people think there's no more need for the verses that expose sin by the hands
of Christians, or especially the hands of those called leaders among Christians.
Would just tearing out the verses be sufficient to allow a conscience to slumber?
After all, what do the worth of the hurt souls matter, when faced with making one's
own mind feel nice by suppressing the cries of the hurt and suffering,
by surpressing the warnings against those who cause hurts and suffering?
Apparently some think that if you have a bad experience and feel the need to share it is not enough to have pages of information on the subject. It needs to be reinvented each and every day. If one has a bad experience at Macy's for example one might share with other friends as a warning, rare is the case that spend their life every day ranting about how they need to save the world from Macy's.
If it was indeed wasteful or pointless to continue to talk about the same or similar bad events over and over, wouldn't the same thing apply to talking abgout the same biblical things over and over?
Quote from an earlier post altered to reflect my point:
Apparently some think that if you have a good experience and feel the need to share it is not enough to have pages of information on the subject. It needs to be reinvented each and every day.
After all, if you want to hear about God, there are pages and pages written about him and Jesus in the bible, don't you think people have already heard about him?
[For those who don't know me that well, I'm not seriously suggesting that Christians don't "witness", just trying to make a point ]
If it was indeed wasteful or pointless to continue to talk about the same or similar bad events over and over, wouldn't the same thing apply to talking abgout the same biblical things over and over?
Quote from an earlier post altered to reflect my point:
Apparently some think that if you have a good experience and feel the need to share it is not enough to have pages of information on the subject. It needs to be reinvented each and every day.
After all, if you want to hear about God, there are pages and pages written about him and Jesus in the bible, don't you think people have already heard about him?
[For those who don't know me that well, I'm not seriously suggesting that Christians don't "witness", just trying to make a point ]
Oak if you notice I don't come here everyday and post thread after thread expounding the good of the way, I think we about got the bad covered , same S**t different day. I have heard many people say you can come back a year later and the same old same old is on the board. How many times have you seen a topic and then "here is a few links where we discussed it before" shows up. The idea that somehow it is important or needs to be done everyday is ridicules there is plenty of warning to read. I don't think that is a bad thing by the way either. But a life mission? Warning goes so far and then maybe a plan for something after is good otherwise you are stuck in the same rut.
the value of exposing sin is to WARN the sheep about the WOLVES!!
shalom to all,
jen-o
I think it was God's idea as I remember anyway. It's not like Jesus dreamed it up....... Scripture tells us that Jesus gave his Father God the glory. We even have a song To God be the Glory Great things] HE[/b] hath done....... while Jesus made it an accomplished reality ,God paid the price as well in the death of his son. Perhaps you don't consider that a price the death of your child. That is the type of unfeeling emotion that happens when you worship Jesus and let others do your thinking, to quote someone......
the value of exposing sin is to WARN the sheep about the WOLVES!!
Right and then the Sheppard stands there for the rest of his life warning the sheep
wolf is gone, dead no less ,but there he is standing out there, just a warning away ,day in day out ,no danger ,but just a warning away. Right like that happens in the real world. Only here. What a hero he is saving us from the wolf that is dead.
in legal terms, this analogy/argument is NOT on point...
the analogy falls short on so MANY levels...
not the least of which is that macy's does not pretend to lead people to eternal life...
nor does macy's pretend to have all the answers to spiritual questions...
nor do false prophets disguise themselves as macy's sales clerks...
no, false prophets tend to hang out in "spiritual" organizations (usually at the top)... and try to cover themselves with the sheep's clothing...
a prolonged experience of interaction (with a false prophet and his organization) consisting of multiple events over an extended period of time (in some cases, years) is NOT the same thing as a single, one time event involving a rude sales clerk...
whitedove, are you telling me that you don't think we need to WARN the sheep about the WOLVES??
Right and then the Sheppard stands there for the rest of his life warning the sheep
wolf is gone, dead no less ,but there he is standing out there, just a warning away ,day in day out ,no danger ,but just a warning away. Right like that happens in the real world. Only here. What a hero he is saving us from the wolf that is dead.
THE "wolf" is not dead. THE "wolf" is that parcel of insidious thought and behavior patterns that were drummed into us in TWI.
Wierwille was not THE wolf, he was just one of the pack who had aspirations of maintaining the alpha male slot.
The idea that somehow it is important or needs to be done everyday is ridicules (sic) there is plenty of warning to read. I don't think that is a bad thing by the way either. But a life mission? Warning goes so far and then maybe a plan for something after is good otherwise you are stuck in the same rut.
really??... maybe you should inform God about this, whitedove...
seeing as how God Himself thought that it was soo important to warn people that HE continually sent WATCHMEN (throughout the old testament as well as present day) who have taken this job on as a LIFE MISSION...
or perhaps, you don't think that God knows what HE is doing...
p.s. i guess that those who were called to be watchmen (by GOD) must have been stuck in a rut (by whitedove's logic)
Oak if you notice I don't come here everyday and post thread after thread expounding the good of the way,
No, you do not, but I wasn't limiting my end of the analogy to good stuff about TWI, nor to this board only; I would guess that you are not shy about telling people about God, the bible and your knowledge and experience of them.
I think we about got the bad covered , same S**t different day. I have heard many people say you can come back a year later and the same old same old is on the board. How many times have you seen a topic and then "here is a few links where we discussed it before" shows up.
This is a discussion board. Pawtucket could have set this up as just a document archive, but if people want to discuss things, so what?
The idea that somehow it is important or needs to be done everyday is ridicules there is plenty of warning to read. I don't think that is a bad thing by the way either. But a life mission? Warning goes so far and then maybe a plan for something after is good otherwise you are stuck in the same rut.
I think you overestimate how much time most people spend here. And how do you know what people do with their time and lives?
One of the recurring battles here at the ol' cafe features a disagreement between those who assign responsibility for certain woes that befell us to Wierwille and his subordinates and those who feel that each individual is completely responsible for anything that happened to them.
It is my position that in most cases we are responsible for how we think and act, and we decide how we will respond to people who treat us wrongly. (Watch for this sentence to be taken out of context to support an opposing opinion!)
It is also my position that this kind of discussion gets pushed into a false dilemma: TWI and its leaders are totally responsible for our problems or we are totally responsible for our problems. A third alternative is that although we decided to stick with a group that was in many cases abusive, the leaders of TWI were wrong to take advantage of the position that we put ourselves in.
The emphasis should not be on whether Wierwille, Martindale or Joe Corps Grad was responsible for our mental state, or the problems that we encountered, but whether the actions that they took were ethical or not.
The way I see it, abusive leaders saw that there were people who, for one reason or another, were willing to put up with whatever level of abuse they were subject to in exchange for what they perceived were benefits: being part of "the household", having access to "the Word like it wasn't known since the 1st century", or whatever other reason people had for putting up with b.s. - Those leaders then took advantage of those people who had put themselves in that position by abusing them.
The emphasis should not be on whether those abused people could have theoretically walked away, or spoken up, but should be on those "leaders" who acted unethically and unbiblically when they knew that they had some people by the b@lls.
It is a distraction to attempt to turn the spotlight back on those who feel victimized or abused. The spotlight should instead be on the perpetrators.
That is the type of unfeeling emotion that happens when you worship Jesus...
and
Then again too much trance inducing Jesus worship apparently clouds the ability to read and focus on printed matter, perhaps if I put a waving hand or two on it you'll get it. I should have known it has to have hand waving to trigger the mind to start working. It's Pavlov's Dog at it's finest hour hand waving and drooling all at the same time.
and
Right and then the Sheppard (sic)stands there for the rest of his life warning the sheep
wolf is gone, dead no less ,but there he is standing out there, just a warning away ,day in day out ,no danger ,but just a warning away. Right like that happens in the real world. Only here. What a hero he is saving us from the wolf that is dead.
whitedove,
you continue to mock Jesus and the worship of Jesus...
(this is probably the only thing that will ever upset me on a message board)
just who do you think The Shepherd is?
and what do you think the job of a shepherd is??
let me clue you in... the job of a shepherd is to take care of the sheep by PROTECTING them from danger!
and one of the basic ways you PROTECT people-sheep is to WARN them about danger!
there are MANY wolves in the world...
it is not just the PHYSICAL BODY of a wolf (like vpw) that Jesus PROTECTS us from... but more importantly, the DOCTRINE & TEACHINGS of the WOLVES!
and yet, you continue to mock who Jesus is and what Jesus does...
you don't think Jesus deserves worship?
all i can say is: every knee is gonna bow!
(your knees, too, whitedove)
you are the perfect example of twi mindset that relegates Jesus to some secondary status...
twi did NOT know Jesus!!
(i can't emphasize this enough)
without Jesus, twi was a worthless organization of dissecting the bible and following men and their opinions!
IF you want to know Jesus, you are NOT going to find HIM in the error-filled doctrine of twi's mad prophet vpw (or any of his devoted trainees)
THIS is the basic WARNING about twi...
you think you're born again because you repeated the words in romans 10:9,10;
you might as well have said abracadabra IF you don't understand what those words mean
(i.e. understand the REASON WHY Jesus came to earth & what exactly HE accomplished)
AND IF you NEGLECT REPENTANCE...
2 basic things that twi truly avoided (ESPECIALLY REPENTANCE)...
i don't think anyone got born again at all due to twi!... if anyone did get born again, it was IN SPITE OF twi not BECAUSE OF twi...
and you don't think people should be WARNED about this?
and you think it is okay to mock Jesus and those that worship HIM?
(you probably think more highly of vpw and twi than you do the Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah...
when do you ever defend Him?
but i sure see you run to the defense of twi and its doctrine and practices...
while you continue to mock Jesus...
btw, perhaps you should check out the word "worshipped" in the gospels before you mock the worship of Jesus again...
of the 13 occurences, 11 times the word "worshipped" is used in connection with worshipping Jesus (from those who worshipped Him at His birth right up until the apostles worshipped Him as He ascended into heaven)... as well as in Rev. 5:14 when Jesus is worshipped as The Lamb...
you continue to mock Jesus and the worship of Jesus...
(this is probably the only thing that will ever upset me on a message board)
just who do you think The Shepherd is?
and what do you think the job of a shepherd is??
let me clue you in... the job of a shepherd is to take care of the sheep by PROTECTING them from danger!
and one of the basic ways you PROTECT people-sheep is to WARN them about danger!
there are MANY wolves in the world...
it is not just the PHYSICAL BODY of a wolf (like vpw) that Jesus PROTECTS us from... but more importantly, the DOCTRINE & TEACHINGS of the WOLVES!
and yet, you continue to mock who Jesus is and what Jesus does...
you don't think Jesus deserves worship?
all i can say is: every knee is gonna bow!
(your knees, too, whitedove)
you are the perfect example of twi mindset that relegates Jesus to some secondary status...
twi did NOT know Jesus!!
(i can't emphasize this enough)
without Jesus, twi was a worthless organization of dissecting the bible and following men and their opinions!
IF you want to know Jesus, you are NOT going to find HIM in the error-filled doctrine of twi's mad prophet vpw (or any of his devoted trainees)
THIS is the basic WARNING about twi...
you think you're born again because you repeated the words in romans 10:9,10;
you might as well have said abracadabra IF you don't understand what those words mean
(i.e. understand the REASON WHY Jesus came to earth & what exactly HE accomplished)
AND IF you NEGLECT REPENTANCE...
2 basic things that twi truly avoided (ESPECIALLY REPENTANCE)...
i don't think anyone got born again at all due to twi!... if anyone did get born again, it was IN SPITE OF twi not BECAUSE OF twi...
and you don't think people should be WARNED about this?
and you think it is okay to mock Jesus and those that worship HIM?
(you probably think more highly of vpw and twi than you do the Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah...
when do you ever defend Him?
but i sure see you run to the defense of twi and its doctrine and practices...
while you continue to mock Jesus...
btw, perhaps you should check out the word "worshipped" in the gospels before you mock the worship of Jesus again...
of the 13 occurences, 11 times the word "worshipped" is used in connection with worshipping Jesus (from those who worshipped Him at His birth right up until the apostles worshipped Him as He ascended into heaven)... as well as in Rev. 5:14 when Jesus is worshipped as The Lamb...
every knee WILLbow!
First the obvious I don't live in the Old Testament, Second I see people saying they worship him So? people still say that today, their error. In contrast I don't see Jesus asking for such worship in fact I see him speak out against such practice. I think that is pretty clear and telling despite some peoples personal theories.
Matthew 4:10 - Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
A quick check of the word worship proskun tells us it is" to kiss the hand, "(respect) a far cry from praying to and waving hands at in some trance like posture. The same word appears in other records like
Acts 10:25 - And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
So do we pray to and wave at Peter as well?
Yep at some point every knee will bow and then there will some splaining to do exactly why some choose to worship other God's
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pawtucket
There are times, albeit rare, that this needed to be public. I am not going to tolerate someone diminishing, denying or belittling the pain of another. Disagree all you want, but you don't have the right to miscategorize or spin someone's pain. I've talked to enough eyewitnesses to know that this isn't some isolated instance. Even John Lynn agrees that the sexual behaviors of leaders, including VP, was horrendous.
You feel humiliated!!! How do you think the dozens of abused people on this board feel, when you all but tell them they are lying?
And this isn't a double standard either, I am just bringing some balance back, that''s all
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oldiesman
Paw, I went back and re-read my posts regarding sky and they have been respectful. I even thanked her after her last post. My opinions are disagreeable on certain elements, but respectful. No diminishment of others. I've posted much worse in the past, you know that. Anyway, have a great weekend, one and all.
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WhiteDove
Thomas
It is doubtful that you are qualified to make a qualified diagnosis of my mental state, and if you were you have not spent the time needed to do so with me. Having just read this tonight and given the fact that it is several weeks old I'll not bother the moderators with reporting your pointless attack on my character. I'll point out that I have not posted on this thread as I have no interest in her story or her attempt to make money from her book. If you have something that you would like to discuss or disagree on with me then bring it, otherwise leave me out of your armchair psychiatric evaluations. Sorry that you have lost your way, but I'm just fine thanks ,and not in need of a support group to think for me . I have no intention of loosing my way on an exposé. There is no need for more exposures of sin, they abound ,and need not come from the ranks of born again ones, What would be the value in a continued exposé of all the things that God has paid the price in Christ to overcome? We don't need an exposé of sin or of sins we need an exposé of God His Word and of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our calling is not one of loosing our way ,but to be On The Way to the great day of the glorious return of Jesus Christ. Until Then I'll be On The Way....... There's a fork in the road ahead for all who have lost their way if they care to get back on the well worn path.
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rascal
No you are right....we certainly don`t need a first hand eye witness expose on the evils of vpw and twi. Must keep all of that evil hidden, whitewashed and swept under the carpet so that folks aren`t faced with having to acknowledge the ominous implications of the fruit of vpw and the travesty of twi.
Nobody REALLY wants to hear the evidence that vic was not only NOT a man of God but the sleaziest of criminal perverts. His actions far more devastating and damage far reaching, than your average criminal.
If we don`t talk about the evil man whom stole from, used, injured, and in some cases even caused the death of our brothers and sisters and even went so far as to teach others to do like wise...Why, everybody can go back to pretending that they are some kind of God`s little superstars. The only possessors of God`s truth....some how just a little above all of the rest of our ignorant christian brethren. Man aren`t we just so speeecial. Dove, you are a real hero, man.
You just keep on down that well worn path that twi doctrine takes you....go ahead and keep hiding your tracks so that people can`t see where you came from. Erase the signs and remove the warnings posted that inform people of just where that path leads that try to help people avoid the snare. Oh, I understand that it is necessary to discredit the people and paths that will lead others away from the dark little world that twi doctrine confines one. It must just frustrate the stew out of you to try to shut off all of the light shined by so many refugees, that expose the danger and pitfalls that you wish would remain hidden so as to give the appearance of safety and legitimacy to the direction you travel.
I have to say, I don`t think that it will work though, there are too many of us now that have escaped the sordid mess of the path twi doctrine leads, and to the best of our ability, we are setting up road blocks, posting warning signs, taking out full page articles in newspaper, broadcasting it on the radio in attempt to warn any whom might be deceived into following that path straight to hell.
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alfakat
There is no need for more exposures of sin, they abound ,and need not come from the ranks of born again ones, What would be the value in a continued exposé of all the things that God has paid the price in Christ to overcome? We don't need an exposé of sin or of sins we need an exposé of God His Word and of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our calling is not one of loosing our way ,but to be On The Way to the great day of the glorious return of Jesus Christ. Until Then I'll be On The Way....... There's a fork in the road ahead for all who have lost their way if they care to get back on the well worn path.
thank you, CG ... words straight from the mouth of the guy who covered it all up to begin with...
I think you might peruse 1 and 2 Timothy for exposure of leaders' repeated sin, mr dove..... and perhaps Galatians as well..
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rascal
Apparently Sky, Paw and many others felt otherwise Oldies.
Come monday. how about you *man up* and apologize and try to understand why your words are repugnant and hurtfull, why they would be disturbing. Honestly?? I think that you know. I think that you like to upset people. You carefully couch your words so that you can administer the most offense and then cry *foul* when people are offended.
You aren`t the wounded party here. You aren`t being persecuted. You have simply been called on the carpet for playing your little games.
The thing is...for those that lived through this stuff...it isn`t a game, a mental challenge to try to *one up* the person on the other side of the argument, to bitch slap a fellow poster and then run high five all of your buddies who agree with you.
It is about healing and overcoming, it is about learning to think and understand, to make sense of our pasts in order to avoid having it affect our futures. It`s about telling the other side of the story. If you cannot be an active part of that, I certainly can understand, but it isn`t fair to interfere with the good that is being accomplished in other peoples lives.
I say these words with nor rancor, npr wishing you any ill will. I just wish that for a moment, I wish that you could set aside your argument, and see through someone elses eyes for a change, the effect of your words, the pain that you inflict in the name of your cause.
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excathedra
oldiesman after reading what you said to sunesis, i will never look at you the same way. i think i said something like that recently, i just didn't know i could feel even more strongly about it, but i do
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jen-o
"for strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be that find it"
if you think that following a false prophet/false teacher leads to anywhere but h3ll, you have a surprise coming...
the "well worn path" is NOT the path you want to be on!
wow... what a telling sentence THIS is...
first off, whoever wrote it, evidently, cannot even bring themselves to say that Christ paid the price for sin!
instead, it reads as: God "paid the price" with His "manufactured Christ" (you know, via that convoluted manufactured sperm in the egg story)
whoever wrote this sentence does NOT know the Lord, and the price HE paid...
(if i were you, i would not claim this sentence, whitedove)
further, re: "what would be the value in a continued exposé" of SIN?
the value of exposing sin is to WARN the sheep about the WOLVES!!
shalom to all,
jen-o
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WordWolf
Perhaps posts like it are long overdue when a poster has behaved poorly in public over extended
periods of time, and refused to heed calls for compassion, reason, or Christian virtues.
(Matthew 18:16-17)
Apparently, some people think there's no more need for the verses that expose sin by the hands
of Christians, or especially the hands of those called leaders among Christians.
Would just tearing out the verses be sufficient to allow a conscience to slumber?
After all, what do the worth of the hurt souls matter, when faced with making one's
own mind feel nice by suppressing the cries of the hurt and suffering,
by surpressing the warnings against those who cause hurts and suffering?
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WhiteDove
Apparently some think that if you have a bad experience and feel the need to share it is not enough to have pages of information on the subject. It needs to be reinvented each and every day. If one has a bad experience at Macy's for example one might share with other friends as a warning, rare is the case that spend their life every day ranting about how they need to save the world from Macy's.
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Oakspear
Interesting analogy, but what is being discussed is a lot worse than most people encounter at Macy's.
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waysider
To the best of my knowledge, Macy's has never sent armed thugs to anyone's door to warn them not to speak evil of Macy's.
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Oakspear
If it was indeed wasteful or pointless to continue to talk about the same or similar bad events over and over, wouldn't the same thing apply to talking abgout the same biblical things over and over?
Quote from an earlier post altered to reflect my point:
Apparently some think that if you have a good experience and feel the need to share it is not enough to have pages of information on the subject. It needs to be reinvented each and every day.
After all, if you want to hear about God, there are pages and pages written about him and Jesus in the bible, don't you think people have already heard about him?
[For those who don't know me that well, I'm not seriously suggesting that Christians don't "witness", just trying to make a point
]
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WhiteDove
Oak if you notice I don't come here everyday and post thread after thread expounding the good of the way, I think we about got the bad covered , same S**t different day. I have heard many people say you can come back a year later and the same old same old is on the board. How many times have you seen a topic and then "here is a few links where we discussed it before" shows up. The idea that somehow it is important or needs to be done everyday is ridicules there is plenty of warning to read. I don't think that is a bad thing by the way either. But a life mission? Warning goes so far and then maybe a plan for something after is good otherwise you are stuck in the same rut.
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WhiteDove
I think it was God's idea as I remember anyway. It's not like Jesus dreamed it up....... Scripture tells us that Jesus gave his Father God the glory. We even have a song To God be the Glory Great things] HE[/b] hath done....... while Jesus made it an accomplished reality ,God paid the price as well in the death of his son. Perhaps you don't consider that a price the death of your child. That is the type of unfeeling emotion that happens when you worship Jesus and let others do your thinking, to quote someone......
Right and then the Sheppard stands there for the rest of his life warning the sheep
wolf is gone, dead no less ,but there he is standing out there, just a warning away ,day in day out ,no danger ,but just a warning away. Right like that happens in the real world. Only here. What a hero he is saving us from the wolf that is dead.
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jen-o
in legal terms, this analogy/argument is NOT on point...
the analogy falls short on so MANY levels...
not the least of which is that macy's does not pretend to lead people to eternal life...
nor does macy's pretend to have all the answers to spiritual questions...
nor do false prophets disguise themselves as macy's sales clerks...
no, false prophets tend to hang out in "spiritual" organizations (usually at the top)... and try to cover themselves with the sheep's clothing...
a prolonged experience of interaction (with a false prophet and his organization) consisting of multiple events over an extended period of time (in some cases, years) is NOT the same thing as a single, one time event involving a rude sales clerk...
whitedove, are you telling me that you don't think we need to WARN the sheep about the WOLVES??
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waysider
THE "wolf" is not dead. THE "wolf" is that parcel of insidious thought and behavior patterns that were drummed into us in TWI.
Wierwille was not THE wolf, he was just one of the pack who had aspirations of maintaining the alpha male slot.
THE wolf is still very much alive and menacing.
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jen-o
really??... maybe you should inform God about this, whitedove...
seeing as how God Himself thought that it was soo important to warn people that HE continually sent WATCHMEN (throughout the old testament as well as present day) who have taken this job on as a LIFE MISSION...
or perhaps, you don't think that God knows what HE is doing...
p.s. i guess that those who were called to be watchmen (by GOD) must have been stuck in a rut (by whitedove's logic)
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Oakspear
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excathedra
macys ? WTF ?
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Oakspear
One of the recurring battles here at the ol' cafe features a disagreement between those who assign responsibility for certain woes that befell us to Wierwille and his subordinates and those who feel that each individual is completely responsible for anything that happened to them.
It is my position that in most cases we are responsible for how we think and act, and we decide how we will respond to people who treat us wrongly. (Watch for this sentence to be taken out of context to support an opposing opinion!)
It is also my position that this kind of discussion gets pushed into a false dilemma: TWI and its leaders are totally responsible for our problems or we are totally responsible for our problems. A third alternative is that although we decided to stick with a group that was in many cases abusive, the leaders of TWI were wrong to take advantage of the position that we put ourselves in.
The emphasis should not be on whether Wierwille, Martindale or Joe Corps Grad was responsible for our mental state, or the problems that we encountered, but whether the actions that they took were ethical or not.
The way I see it, abusive leaders saw that there were people who, for one reason or another, were willing to put up with whatever level of abuse they were subject to in exchange for what they perceived were benefits: being part of "the household", having access to "the Word like it wasn't known since the 1st century", or whatever other reason people had for putting up with b.s. - Those leaders then took advantage of those people who had put themselves in that position by abusing them.
The emphasis should not be on whether those abused people could have theoretically walked away, or spoken up, but should be on those "leaders" who acted unethically and unbiblically when they knew that they had some people by the b@lls.
It is a distraction to attempt to turn the spotlight back on those who feel victimized or abused. The spotlight should instead be on the perpetrators.
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jen-o
whitedove,
you continue to mock Jesus and the worship of Jesus...
(this is probably the only thing that will ever upset me on a message board)
just who do you think The Shepherd is?
and what do you think the job of a shepherd is??
let me clue you in... the job of a shepherd is to take care of the sheep by PROTECTING them from danger!
and one of the basic ways you PROTECT people-sheep is to WARN them about danger!
there are MANY wolves in the world...
it is not just the PHYSICAL BODY of a wolf (like vpw) that Jesus PROTECTS us from... but more importantly, the DOCTRINE & TEACHINGS of the WOLVES!
and yet, you continue to mock who Jesus is and what Jesus does...
you don't think Jesus deserves worship?
all i can say is: every knee is gonna bow!
(your knees, too, whitedove)
you are the perfect example of twi mindset that relegates Jesus to some secondary status...
twi did NOT know Jesus!!
(i can't emphasize this enough)
without Jesus, twi was a worthless organization of dissecting the bible and following men and their opinions!
IF you want to know Jesus, you are NOT going to find HIM in the error-filled doctrine of twi's mad prophet vpw (or any of his devoted trainees)
THIS is the basic WARNING about twi...
you think you're born again because you repeated the words in romans 10:9,10;
you might as well have said abracadabra IF you don't understand what those words mean
(i.e. understand the REASON WHY Jesus came to earth & what exactly HE accomplished)
AND IF you NEGLECT REPENTANCE...
2 basic things that twi truly avoided (ESPECIALLY REPENTANCE)...
i don't think anyone got born again at all due to twi!... if anyone did get born again, it was IN SPITE OF twi not BECAUSE OF twi...
and you don't think people should be WARNED about this?
and you think it is okay to mock Jesus and those that worship HIM?
(you probably think more highly of vpw and twi than you do the Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah...
when do you ever defend Him?
but i sure see you run to the defense of twi and its doctrine and practices...
while you continue to mock Jesus...
btw, perhaps you should check out the word "worshipped" in the gospels before you mock the worship of Jesus again...
of the 13 occurences, 11 times the word "worshipped" is used in connection with worshipping Jesus (from those who worshipped Him at His birth right up until the apostles worshipped Him as He ascended into heaven)... as well as in Rev. 5:14 when Jesus is worshipped as The Lamb...
every knee WILL bow!
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excathedra
i just lost my post damnit
i was saying thanks oaks
i was a young woman okay not in high school freshman in college
from a screwed up abusive incestuous blah blah
there is no way i'm going to excuse the bastud my spiritual dah dah overseer ha
i might be crazy but i am way more sane now
ppppfffftttt
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WhiteDove
First the obvious I don't live in the Old Testament, Second I see people saying they worship him So? people still say that today, their error. In contrast I don't see Jesus asking for such worship in fact I see him speak out against such practice. I think that is pretty clear and telling despite some peoples personal theories.
Matthew 4:10 - Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
A quick check of the word worship proskun tells us it is" to kiss the hand, "(respect) a far cry from praying to and waving hands at in some trance like posture. The same word appears in other records like
Acts 10:25 - And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
So do we pray to and wave at Peter as well?
Yep at some point every knee will bow and then there will some splaining to do exactly why some choose to worship other God's
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