but have said nothing to even clarify what your point IS...
you still haven't told me what the difference is between God receiving proskuneo worship VS Jesus receiving proskuneo worship...
I guess you don't want to address what the scriptures say like Matthew 4:10
i don't have to "address" the scriptures... i completely agree with the scriptures and with matt. 4:10!!
but then again, i don't have to try and make the scriptures fit like a "hand in a glove" with mathematical precision and scientific exactness...
i agree with matt. 4:10...
and i agree with the 11 scriptures wherein Jesus is worshipped in the gospels...
you draw the conclusion...
Or the fact that worship (the same word ) is used for Peter, which means logically if it is the same word used the same way then you would also worship and pray to him as well.That should tell you that something is wrong with your theory
gee, whitedove, it's interesting to note that you took your twi scalpel and carved this verse out of the bible with absolutely NO reference to its context (and evidently no understanding of its context either)...
you did at least read the next verse, didn't you??
the verse you referenced:
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him]. (acts 10:25)
the next verse:
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. (acts 10:26)
if you noticed, peter REBUKED this!... peter did NOT allow worship to be directed toward himself!
your mentioning of this verse doesn't tell me that anything is wrong with my conclusions;
it tells me something is wrong with your method of studying scriptures which has led to an error in your conclusions!
now, if you go back and read the 11 occurences where Jesus is worshipped in the gospels,
you will find that NO WHERE does Jesus ever rebuke anyone for worshipping HIM...
Jesus was a bold man... He most definitely would have spoken up against this if He considered it wrong...
(why do you think he didn't?)
or do YOU prefer to ignore these 11 verses!
And as I pointed out it was not requested by Jesus, in fact it was discouraged.
as i just pointed out, NO WHERE was this ever discouraged by Jesus!
check out the 11 verses and see what Jesus says and does after He is worshipped...
in fact, in one place He says, "all power is given unto Me in heaven and earth" (that doesn't sound like He is discouraging anything)
People are religious then and now.
yep, and twi was a MOST RELIGIOUS organization...
twi had MORE rules and regulations than the RC church...
complete with the same hierarchal structure...
twi also had a pope-like figure who was the world's spokesman for God...
(talk about religious)
Right ,just as he himself told us to, he was pretty clear on the proper order.
So let me get this straight you know Jesus but refuse to do what he asked you to do
not sure what you are referring to... just what exactly do you think that Jesus asked me to do that i refused to do??
as for the "proper order",
Jesus said:
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
you cannot know God unless you know His Son, Jesus...
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
evidently, there are MANY people who call Jesus "Lord" BUT really do NOT know Him... and neither does He know them...
i can't think of a more tragic situation than for people to think they are "born-again" and know Jesus when they in fact do NOT...
(this is a very serious thing)
By the way one can know Jesus without waving at them or worshiping them.
whitedove, you have mentioned this hand-waving thing repeatedly...
do you equate hand-waving with "worship"... or worship with "hand-waving"??
i personally have never practiced "hand-waving"... and yet, i most definitely believe that Jesus is worthy of my worship and adoration!
I am not going to tolerate someone diminishing, denying or belittling the pain of another. Disagree all you want, but you don't have the right to miscategorize or spin someone's pain.
Oldies,
This is totally in line with the policy for the forums. I will not tolerate someone attacking the statements of people that have been victims. You can disagree with them, but there is no need to call them "Liars" or that they are "Full of dang" Posts of that nature will just be deleted. You have openly attacked peoples' integrity in the past.
These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
Our forums cover many topics from religious to political. While we are not a religious site, we do embrace discussions in this area.
All are welcome here. However, harassing behavior will result in being banned from the forums. There is no need for personal attacks. If you have a specific problem with a poster, settle it outside of the forum. Threads of that nature will be deleted or sent to the Soap Opera Forum.
The opinions expressed on this site are not necessarily those of the cooks, waitresses, bus boys, or cashier of the GreaseSpot Cafe.
No one needs to make it personal. My advice to anyone that feels they can't resist the urge, put that poster on IGNORE. If protecting victims from additional unnecessary abuse is censorship, then so be it.
I went through the last 2000 posts and I deleted 3 posts. One by request from the poster, one from this thread with a personal attack and another in open with inappropriate remarks about the anniversary of Kent State. And I deleted one thread that would create great liability if I ignored it. I hardly think you have been censored, but you are entitled to your opinion.
Right and then the Sheppard stands there for the rest of his life warning the sheep
wolf is gone, dead no less ,but there he is standing out there, just a warning away ,day in day out ,no danger ,but just a warning away. Right like that happens in the real world. Only here. What a hero he is saving us from the wolf that is dead.
The last I checked, the wolf's clones are spreading across the land like a blight..
Paw, I agree.. though it isn't a matter of resisting the urge to flame.. it's some posts are just too nauseating..
could I ask people a favor here? If the posts are so outrageous and nauseating.. please don't hit the "quote" button if you must reply. it defeats the purpose of putting someone on ignore to begin with.
It's great to see posts about our wonderful Lord! TWI had to discourage people from knowing him because if they did we woulnd't have needed a Dr. Wierwille or an LCM. Knowing Jesus as the head of the body would have taken away all control.
Personally I believe that the vast majority of folks who suffered abuse at the hands of Wierwille and other TWI leaders fall into two major categories:
Those who completely bought into TWI's spin on sin and fully believed that the MOG and MOGlets could do no wrong.
Those who knew there were problems, that unbiblical things were going on, but weighed the problems against the perceived benefits and decided to stick it out, it is my thought that this was the larger group
I can't imagine too many people putting up with abuse because they liked abuse.
I don't think people are really quite that logical or methodical. The complexities of submitting to "higher powers" and enduring abuse are beyond me to explain, but they are subtle and insidious.
It seems the patterns of control are established from the start in TWI, and some that need help the most have patterns established from their youth. An abuser or abusive system preys on those people, and works on those vulnerabilties. Obedience and submission may be praised, and the process continues ...
Those that weighed problems and decided to stay, did not have the big picture. And they almost surely did not see the amount of "brainwashing" that had happened to them.
There is plenty of mind control and submission and abuse in the world ... when it systematically happens in a religious type organization it is called a cult ... I guess.
That all being said, for the sake of discussion I'm willing to stipulate that those of us who remained in TWI bear some responsibility for our lives, for not running like h#ll at the first sign of trouble...but
There was no reason why we should have expected to be abused, especially by those who supposedly were teaching us God's Word. Those we trusted.
There is no reason why we should be diverting attention to the poor schmucks who got talked into enduring crap at the hands of our spiritual "leaders".
Sure ... each of us is responsible for our lives ... that doesn't make the wolves that eat the sheep any less wolflike. Wolves that wear sheep's clothing seem doubly guilty ...
I don't think people are really quite that logical or methodical. The complexities of submitting to "higher powers" and enduring abuse are beyond me to explain, but they are subtle and insidious.
I agree, people aren't that logical or methodical; I thinking the "weighing" takes place on an emotional level.
Everybody has a "tipping point", where the crap just isn't worth it any more. Few if any have the exact location of that tipping point figured out in advance and don't know it until they've shot past it.
Those that weighed problems and decided to stay, did not have the big picture. And they almost surely did not see the amount of "brainwashing" that had happened to them.
Amen to that.
Sure ... each of us is responsible for our lives ... that doesn't make the wolves that eat the sheep any less wolflike. Wolves that wear sheep's clothing seem doubly guilty ...
Right and then the Sheppard stands there for the rest of his life warning the sheep
wolf is gone, dead no less ,but there he is standing out there, just a warning away ,day in day out ,no danger ,but just a warning away. Right like that happens in the real world. Only here. What a hero he is saving us from the wolf that is dead.
Wolves have cubs, hence a shepherd's work is never done...
Wolves have cubs, hence a shepherd's work is never done...
So then do the Shepard's watch the dead wolf and spend their attention on it? ,or do they wisely move on to new cubs as their point of concern. I'd say they do if they are smart, a dead wolf is no more a threat it just sorta lays there and decomposes. I don't see a lot of attention being expended on new cubs, only kicking a dead wolf over and over and over. Meanwhile the new cubs are eating happily. Looks like the Shepard's are falling asleep on the watch to me.
So then do the Shepard's watch the dead wolf and spend their attention on it? ,or do they wisely move on to new cubs as their point of concern. I'd say they do if they are smart, a dead wolf is no more a threat it just sorta lays there and decomposes. I don't see a lot of attention being expended on new cubs, only kicking a dead wolf over and over and over. Meanwhile the new cubs are eating happily. Looks like the Shepard's are falling asleep on the watch to me.
whitedove,
i already answered this in post #173...
the job of a shepherd is to take care of the sheep by PROTECTING them from danger!
and one of the basic ways you PROTECT people-sheep is to WARN them about danger!
there are MANY wolves in the world...
it is not just the PHYSICAL BODY of a wolf (like vpw) that Jesus PROTECTS us from... but more importantly, the DOCTRINE & TEACHINGS of the WOLVES!
the danger exists not only in the physical body of vpw, but LIVES ON thru his teachings and false doctrine!
this is what we are warning the sheep about!
this is what we seek to dismantle!
ESPECIALLY since there are those who seek to put a pro-twi spin on things...
as i have previously stated: i do not believe that the teachings and doctrine of vpw led to anyone being born again...
(as i also previously stated: IF anyone got born again while in twi, it was IN SPITE OF twi not BECAUSE OF twi)
twi did NOT know Jesus... and Jesus is the door to eternal life!
so i think it is VERY important to WARN people about this mad prophet and his teachings!
whether he is dead or alive makes no difference!!
if you think that because vpw is dead that his teachings are no longer any threat, then you are sadly mistaken...
I'd say they do if they are smart, a dead wolf is no more a threat it just sorta lays there and decomposes. I don't see a lot of attention being expended on new cubs, only kicking a dead wolf over and over and over. Meanwhile the new cubs are eating happily. Looks like the Shepard's are falling asleep on the watch to me.
I don't care to be the shepherd ... but most history is about dead people ... what is learned is about how manipulation happened ... hence how it can be avoided.
There are lotsa responses to your comments WD .... are you a wolf cub?
the danger exists not only in the physical body of vpw, but LIVES ON thru his teachings and false doctrine!
this is what we are warning the sheep about!
this is what we seek to dismantle!
ESPECIALLY since there are those who seek to put a pro-twi spin on things...
as i have previously stated: i do not believe that the teachings and doctrine of vpw led to anyone being born again...
(as i also previously stated: IF anyone got born again while in twi, it was IN SPITE OF twi not BECAUSE OF twi)
twi did NOT know Jesus... and Jesus is the door to eternal life!
so i think it is VERY important to WARN people about this mad prophet and his teachings!
whether he is dead or alive makes no difference!!
if you think that because vpw is dead that his teachings are no longer any threat, then you are sadly mistaken...
Yeah I get it warn the sheep BAAAH....... Do you think that is all shepherd should be doing ? Talking about the wolves day in day out or should he have a plan of action to restore? Do you really think preaching to the choir is warning ? I mean look at your audience I think most got it by now. Periodically we hear someone say I just read so and so thread it took me two days... That's just one of thousands how many days worth of warning is there? , and don't you think after a month or so of reading even if another word is not spoken, most would feel sufficiently warned? So what are we tornado sirens? Is that our lot in life ? Just blow all day, day after day, month after month ,Warn Warn Warn Warn.... And what about Jesus sure he warned people on occasion I don't see where he overdid it and usually it was a point of contrast after which he focused on a relationship with his Father.
I don't see Jesus warning of Herod and what he did or did not do in his personal life, every word he said dissected, how he spent the ABS of the day the temple money what he did with the temple girls, I missed where he brought up how many chariots Pilate had. Did Jesus really care? He sure set a poor example of warning by your standards.
Speaking of shepherds and warning do you think they just sat around talking about wolves? Yep there is that ole wolf again most likely looking for a sheep...reckin I'll warn the sheep ...Hey fuzzballs look out for the wolf.....yep he is mean and nasty let me tell you about him......Blah Blah Blah...... there that should help them they've been warned no harm will come now. The warner has saved them.
I see where the man born blind who came to Jesus was helped, not warned. Bad Jesus ! why you should have warned him about Herod's chariots and how many he had. at least told him about the misuse of temple money, instead you went and helped him, what a silly thing to do Jesus. Verily I say unto thee ,you shall wail like the siren and warn warn warn all the days of your life. There is a time for all things including one for warning, when that is passed no more is needed. You may think talking about others sins benefits others but does it really? Does it help one to believe greater or is it an enemy of believing?
as i have previously stated: i do not believe that the teachings and doctrine of vpw led to anyone being born again...
(as i also previously stated: IF anyone got born again while in twi, it was IN SPITE OF twi not BECAUSE OF twi)
twi did NOT know Jesus... and Jesus is the door to eternal life!
so i think it is VERY important to WARN people about this mad prophet and his teachings!
whether he is dead or alive makes no difference!!
Some people believe in aliens too..... does what you believe make it true? I don't think so
Dove, what you should be asking yourself is why it bothers you so for people to talk about the wolf. Why does it bother you if people warn of the false prophet wierwille?
There are many facets to this. Just because you are incapable of understanding the benefit and need does not negate the importance of what is accomplished here.
There is more than just physical escape from twi.....yeah that is the first step. The rest of our lives will be spent freeing ourselves from the mental chains that bind us to the doctrine of a man of the flesh, a false prophet, a wolf in sheep`s clothing.
Leaving twi is just the first step in a lifetime of unwrapping the insiduous bonds of this criminals doctrine that keep us ensnared.
If you are honest Dove, you will be asking yourself why this bothers you to the point where you will do anything you can to sabotage the good that is occurring, to silence the voices that tell what happened.....and why it is ok to harangue and mistreat people whom don`t share your view point.
I understand having invested a life time in this doctrine. I understand getting to the point where we staked our lives on believing that wierwille was teaching us Godly information....it is damned hard to start over again...There is all of that accrued status of being super believers...heralders of the truth...saving the world with the word....I get it...
I understanding madly trying to discredit any whom threaten that perception of ones self and accomplishments.
Holding fast to wierwilles doctrine, or his credibility as a teacher or minister or even a decent human being ....the lack of ability to come to grips with the implications of his fruit....to my way of thinking is nothing more than arrogance and and deep seated fear of finding out you were wrong all these years.
Friend, it is sad that your need to believe drives you relentlessly to silence the testimony that gives an accurate picture of who and what vpw was and how worthy his doctrine is to base ones spiritual life on...
Jeno, according to twi dogma....there is no room for Jesus, the God given shepherd to guide and protect his flock.
In twi theology it was all about us and our powers and our standing and our abilities and our operation of principles and laws, and our knowledge of the truth.
In reality, we simply became very arrogant. It takes a humility and meekness to trust in the shepherd.
Dove, what you should be asking yourself is why it bothers you so for people to talk about the wolf. Why does it bother you if people warn of the false prophet wierwille?
There are many facets to this. Just because you are incapable of understanding the benefit and need does not negate the importance of what is accomplished here.
Rascal you assume too much it doesn't bother me at all, I just hate to see people think they are doing something they are not . there are pages of warning on this site Maybe I have too much faith in humankind but I think anyone can get the warning message already here pretty well. That said it's a free world and anyone post what they like one could reverse your question and ask why the need to day after day villify a years old experiance. You may think you are warning but you are like a record stuck on auto play over and over day in day out. Stuck in a groove.
There is more than just physical escape from twi.....yeah that is the first step. The rest of our lives will be spent freeing ourselves from the mental chains that bind us to the doctrine of a man of the flesh, a false prophet, a wolf in sheep`s clothing.
Leaving twi is just the first step in a lifetime of unwrapping the insiduous bonds of this criminals doctrine that keep us ensnared.
Only if you want to stay there, I don't You under estimate the power of the Healing Word.
If you are honest Dove, you will be asking yourself why this bothers you to the point where you will do anything you can to sabotage the good that is occurring, to silence the voices that tell what happened.....and why it is ok to harangue and mistreat people whom don`t share your view point.
Thats simple I want truth to be spoken not hear say,inuendo, guesses, and so on. I have never objected to honost facts just peoples he said that she said that a friend of theirs said......
I understand having invested a life time in this doctrine. I understand getting to the point where we staked our lives on believing that wierwille was teaching us Godly information....it is damned hard to start over again...There is all of that accrued status of being super believers...heralders of the truth...saving the world with the word....I get it...
I understanding madly trying to discredit any whom threaten that perception of ones self and accomplishments.
Holding fast to wierwilles doctrine, or his credibility as a teacher or minister or even a decent human being ....the lack of ability to come to grips with the implications of his fruit....to my way of thinking is nothing more than arrogance and and deep seated fear of finding out you were wrong all these years.
Friend, it is sad that your need to believe drives you relentlessly to silence the testimony that gives an accurate picture of who and what vpw was and how worthy his doctrine is to base ones spiritual life on...
Truth is Truth we seldom know what goes on in the lives of those who teach us. If we did our school days would all be thrown out.
it is clear that you do not know what a watchman is...
it's also clear that you do not understand the analogy of the shepherd...
ezekiel is a good example of a watchman (perhaps you should read the book of ezekiel)
isaiah is another example of a watchman...
if you read what these men did, you will get a good idea of what watchmen are called to do...
On Your Walls O Jerusalem I Have Appointed Watchmen; All Day And All Night they Will Never Keep Silent. (Isaiah 62:8)
here is a list of current watchmen...
(perhaps you would like to check out their websites and see what they do)
The Berean Call (Dave Hunt & Tom McMahon)
Jacata Ministries (David Lister)
Believers In Grace (Bill Randles)
National Prayer Network (Mark Haville)
Belfast Berean (Mark McAlister)
Media Spotlight (Al Dagger)
The Sentinel (Jacky & Bill Alnor)
Vanguard (Siam Bayhro)
CWM (Philip Powell)
Eddy Cheong Ministries (Dr. Eddy Cheong)
St. Matthew Publishing (Philip Foster)
Intercessors For Britain (Ray Borlaise, Stuart Dule)
PWM (Clifford Hill & David Noakes)
Ed Tarkowski Ministries (Ed Tarkowski)
Spirit of 88 (Michael De Semlyn)
Living Word (Gary Hall)
Bread Upon the Water (Bill Brehm)
Christian Voice (Stephen Green)
Banner Ministries(Trish & Jon Tillin)
Light For the Last Days (Tony Pearce)
Take Heed Ministries (Cecil Andrews)
Come Let Us Reason (Mike Oppenheimer)
Watchman Fellowship (James Walker, Bob Anderson)
Personal Freedom Outreach (Dick Fisher)
Spiritual Counterfeit Project (Tal Brooks)
Alpha and Omega Ministries (James White)
Utah Lighthouse Ministry (Jerald Tanner)
Reach Out Trust (Doug Harris)
Discernment in the Church (Sandy Simpson)
the tone of your post is mocking...
you appear to be mocking the ministry of a watchman and what he does (which is WARN people)
however, perhaps you do it out of ignorance...
so i am gonna give you the benefit of the doubt...
and that is why i have tried to point you in a direction for you to check these things out for yourself...
peace,
jen-o
It's clear that you don't want to answer the questions. It's clear that Jesus or his followers did not spend their days talking about personal evil day in day out , that's what is clear. It's clear that their warnings were to the point and then the focus was not continously on the sins of others but upon helping. Anyone can run their mouth about someone elses sins. that does not take much effort. If you want to stay stuck talking about others sins fine. Dont try to pass it off as something Jesus would do clearly he did not engage in such actions. Jesus helped those in need he did not set them down and tell them all of Herod's sins thinking that would somehow help them.
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jen-o
all you've done is tell me "the point is clear"
but have said nothing to even clarify what your point IS...
you still haven't told me what the difference is between God receiving proskuneo worship VS Jesus receiving proskuneo worship...
i don't have to "address" the scriptures... i completely agree with the scriptures and with matt. 4:10!!
but then again, i don't have to try and make the scriptures fit like a "hand in a glove" with mathematical precision and scientific exactness...
i agree with matt. 4:10...
and i agree with the 11 scriptures wherein Jesus is worshipped in the gospels...
you draw the conclusion...
gee, whitedove, it's interesting to note that you took your twi scalpel and carved this verse out of the bible with absolutely NO reference to its context (and evidently no understanding of its context either)...you did at least read the next verse, didn't you??
the verse you referenced:
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him]. (acts 10:25)
the next verse:
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. (acts 10:26)
if you noticed, peter REBUKED this!... peter did NOT allow worship to be directed toward himself!
your mentioning of this verse doesn't tell me that anything is wrong with my conclusions;
it tells me something is wrong with your method of studying scriptures which has led to an error in your conclusions!
now, if you go back and read the 11 occurences where Jesus is worshipped in the gospels,
you will find that NO WHERE does Jesus ever rebuke anyone for worshipping HIM...
Jesus was a bold man... He most definitely would have spoken up against this if He considered it wrong...
(why do you think he didn't?)
or do YOU prefer to ignore these 11 verses!
as i just pointed out, NO WHERE was this ever discouraged by Jesus!
check out the 11 verses and see what Jesus says and does after He is worshipped...
in fact, in one place He says, "all power is given unto Me in heaven and earth" (that doesn't sound like He is discouraging anything)
yep, and twi was a MOST RELIGIOUS organization...twi had MORE rules and regulations than the RC church...
complete with the same hierarchal structure...
twi also had a pope-like figure who was the world's spokesman for God...
(talk about religious)
not sure what you are referring to... just what exactly do you think that Jesus asked me to do that i refused to do??
as for the "proper order",
Jesus said:
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
you cannot know God unless you know His Son, Jesus...
evidently, there are MANY people who call Jesus "Lord" BUT really do NOT know Him... and neither does He know them...
i can't think of a more tragic situation than for people to think they are "born-again" and know Jesus when they in fact do NOT...
(this is a very serious thing)
whitedove, you have mentioned this hand-waving thing repeatedly...
do you equate hand-waving with "worship"... or worship with "hand-waving"??
i personally have never practiced "hand-waving"... and yet, i most definitely believe that Jesus is worthy of my worship and adoration!
and i worship, love, and adore HIM!
peace,
jen-o
p.s. if you knew Jesus, you would worship Him!
Edited by jen-oLink to comment
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pawtucket
This is totally in line with the policy for the forums. I will not tolerate someone attacking the statements of people that have been victims. You can disagree with them, but there is no need to call them "Liars" or that they are "Full of dang" Posts of that nature will just be deleted. You have openly attacked peoples' integrity in the past.
No one needs to make it personal. My advice to anyone that feels they can't resist the urge, put that poster on IGNORE. If protecting victims from additional unnecessary abuse is censorship, then so be it.
I went through the last 2000 posts and I deleted 3 posts. One by request from the poster, one from this thread with a personal attack and another in open with inappropriate remarks about the anniversary of Kent State. And I deleted one thread that would create great liability if I ignored it. I hardly think you have been censored, but you are entitled to your opinion.
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Ham
The last I checked, the wolf's clones are spreading across the land like a blight..
Paw, I agree.. though it isn't a matter of resisting the urge to flame.. it's some posts are just too nauseating..
could I ask people a favor here? If the posts are so outrageous and nauseating.. please don't hit the "quote" button if you must reply. it defeats the purpose of putting someone on ignore to begin with.
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sky watcher
Jen-o,
It's great to see posts about our wonderful Lord! TWI had to discourage people from knowing him because if they did we woulnd't have needed a Dr. Wierwille or an LCM. Knowing Jesus as the head of the body would have taken away all control.
Thanks for you posts.
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jen-o
your welcome, skywatcher! :~)
i agree with you...
vpw and lcm ended up taking the place that rightfully belonged to Jesus...
btw, i want to welcome you to the gs cafe!
and thank you for sharing a bit of your story!
hugs,
jen-o
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Oakspear
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WhiteDove
So Groucho does the logic still fail to pass the test now that you can't attribute the quote to me ? Just wondering enquiring minds want to know.
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Oakspear
Inquiring minds want to wave their hands
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rhino
I don't think people are really quite that logical or methodical. The complexities of submitting to "higher powers" and enduring abuse are beyond me to explain, but they are subtle and insidious.
It seems the patterns of control are established from the start in TWI, and some that need help the most have patterns established from their youth. An abuser or abusive system preys on those people, and works on those vulnerabilties. Obedience and submission may be praised, and the process continues ...
Those that weighed problems and decided to stay, did not have the big picture. And they almost surely did not see the amount of "brainwashing" that had happened to them.
There is plenty of mind control and submission and abuse in the world ... when it systematically happens in a religious type organization it is called a cult ... I guess.
Sure ... each of us is responsible for our lives ... that doesn't make the wolves that eat the sheep any less wolflike. Wolves that wear sheep's clothing seem doubly guilty ...
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Oakspear
Everybody has a "tipping point", where the crap just isn't worth it any more. Few if any have the exact location of that tipping point figured out in advance and don't know it until they've shot past it.
Amen to that. You, my friend of gotten my point!Link to comment
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jen-o
oak-ster,
heheheheh
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excathedra
wow seems like some people took a course in common sense
although i doubt veepee taught it
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chockfull
Wolves have cubs, hence a shepherd's work is never done...
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WhiteDove
So then do the Shepard's watch the dead wolf and spend their attention on it? ,or do they wisely move on to new cubs as their point of concern. I'd say they do if they are smart, a dead wolf is no more a threat it just sorta lays there and decomposes. I don't see a lot of attention being expended on new cubs, only kicking a dead wolf over and over and over. Meanwhile the new cubs are eating happily. Looks like the Shepard's are falling asleep on the watch to me.
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jen-o
i already answered this in post #173...
the danger exists not only in the physical body of vpw, but LIVES ON thru his teachings and false doctrine!
this is what we are warning the sheep about!
this is what we seek to dismantle!
ESPECIALLY since there are those who seek to put a pro-twi spin on things...
as i have previously stated: i do not believe that the teachings and doctrine of vpw led to anyone being born again...
(as i also previously stated: IF anyone got born again while in twi, it was IN SPITE OF twi not BECAUSE OF twi)
twi did NOT know Jesus... and Jesus is the door to eternal life!
so i think it is VERY important to WARN people about this mad prophet and his teachings!
whether he is dead or alive makes no difference!!
if you think that because vpw is dead that his teachings are no longer any threat, then you are sadly mistaken...
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rhino
I don't care to be the shepherd ... but most history is about dead people ... what is learned is about how manipulation happened ... hence how it can be avoided.
There are lotsa responses to your comments WD .... are you a wolf cub?
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jen-o
p.s. obviously, his teachings include his practices... because that is what he taught by example...
oh, and THE SHEPHERD is obviously Jesus!
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WhiteDove
Yeah I get it warn the sheep BAAAH....... Do you think that is all shepherd should be doing ? Talking about the wolves day in day out or should he have a plan of action to restore? Do you really think preaching to the choir is warning ? I mean look at your audience I think most got it by now. Periodically we hear someone say I just read so and so thread it took me two days... That's just one of thousands how many days worth of warning is there? , and don't you think after a month or so of reading even if another word is not spoken, most would feel sufficiently warned? So what are we tornado sirens? Is that our lot in life ? Just blow all day, day after day, month after month ,Warn Warn Warn Warn.... And what about Jesus sure he warned people on occasion I don't see where he overdid it and usually it was a point of contrast after which he focused on a relationship with his Father.
I don't see Jesus warning of Herod and what he did or did not do in his personal life, every word he said dissected, how he spent the ABS of the day the temple money what he did with the temple girls, I missed where he brought up how many chariots Pilate had. Did Jesus really care? He sure set a poor example of warning by your standards.
Speaking of shepherds and warning do you think they just sat around talking about wolves? Yep there is that ole wolf again most likely looking for a sheep...reckin I'll warn the sheep ...Hey fuzzballs look out for the wolf.....yep he is mean and nasty let me tell you about him......Blah Blah Blah...... there that should help them they've been warned no harm will come now. The warner has saved them.
I see where the man born blind who came to Jesus was helped, not warned. Bad Jesus ! why you should have warned him about Herod's chariots and how many he had. at least told him about the misuse of temple money, instead you went and helped him, what a silly thing to do Jesus. Verily I say unto thee ,you shall wail like the siren and warn warn warn all the days of your life. There is a time for all things including one for warning, when that is passed no more is needed. You may think talking about others sins benefits others but does it really? Does it help one to believe greater or is it an enemy of believing?
Some people believe in aliens too..... does what you believe make it true? I don't think so
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rascal
Dove, what you should be asking yourself is why it bothers you so for people to talk about the wolf. Why does it bother you if people warn of the false prophet wierwille?
There are many facets to this. Just because you are incapable of understanding the benefit and need does not negate the importance of what is accomplished here.
There is more than just physical escape from twi.....yeah that is the first step. The rest of our lives will be spent freeing ourselves from the mental chains that bind us to the doctrine of a man of the flesh, a false prophet, a wolf in sheep`s clothing.
Leaving twi is just the first step in a lifetime of unwrapping the insiduous bonds of this criminals doctrine that keep us ensnared.
If you are honest Dove, you will be asking yourself why this bothers you to the point where you will do anything you can to sabotage the good that is occurring, to silence the voices that tell what happened.....and why it is ok to harangue and mistreat people whom don`t share your view point.
I understand having invested a life time in this doctrine. I understand getting to the point where we staked our lives on believing that wierwille was teaching us Godly information....it is damned hard to start over again...There is all of that accrued status of being super believers...heralders of the truth...saving the world with the word....I get it...
I understanding madly trying to discredit any whom threaten that perception of ones self and accomplishments.
Holding fast to wierwilles doctrine, or his credibility as a teacher or minister or even a decent human being ....the lack of ability to come to grips with the implications of his fruit....to my way of thinking is nothing more than arrogance and and deep seated fear of finding out you were wrong all these years.
Friend, it is sad that your need to believe drives you relentlessly to silence the testimony that gives an accurate picture of who and what vpw was and how worthy his doctrine is to base ones spiritual life on...
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jen-o
whitedove,
it is clear that you do not know what a watchman is...
it's also clear that you do not understand the analogy of the shepherd...
ezekiel is a good example of a watchman (perhaps you should read the book of ezekiel)
isaiah is another example of a watchman...
if you read what these men did, you will get a good idea of what watchmen are called to do...
On Your Walls O Jerusalem I Have Appointed Watchmen; All Day And All Night they Will Never Keep Silent. (Isaiah 62:8)
here is a list of current watchmen...
(perhaps you would like to check out their websites and see what they do)
The Berean Call (Dave Hunt & Tom McMahon)
Jacata Ministries (David Lister)
Believers In Grace (Bill Randles)
National Prayer Network (Mark Haville)
Belfast Berean (Mark McAlister)
Media Spotlight (Al Dagger)
The Sentinel (Jacky & Bill Alnor)
Vanguard (Siam Bayhro)
CWM (Philip Powell)
Eddy Cheong Ministries (Dr. Eddy Cheong)
St. Matthew Publishing (Philip Foster)
Intercessors For Britain (Ray Borlaise, Stuart Dule)
PWM (Clifford Hill & David Noakes)
Ed Tarkowski Ministries (Ed Tarkowski)
Spirit of 88 (Michael De Semlyn)
Living Word (Gary Hall)
Bread Upon the Water (Bill Brehm)
Christian Voice (Stephen Green)
Banner Ministries(Trish & Jon Tillin)
Light For the Last Days (Tony Pearce)
Take Heed Ministries (Cecil Andrews)
Come Let Us Reason (Mike Oppenheimer)
Watchman Fellowship (James Walker, Bob Anderson)
Personal Freedom Outreach (Dick Fisher)
Spiritual Counterfeit Project (Tal Brooks)
Alpha and Omega Ministries (James White)
Utah Lighthouse Ministry (Jerald Tanner)
Reach Out Trust (Doug Harris)
Discernment in the Church (Sandy Simpson)
the tone of your post is mocking...
you appear to be mocking the ministry of a watchman and what he does (which is WARN people)
however, perhaps you do it out of ignorance...
so i am gonna give you the benefit of the doubt...
and that is why i have tried to point you in a direction for you to check these things out for yourself...
peace,
jen-o
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rascal
Jeno, according to twi dogma....there is no room for Jesus, the God given shepherd to guide and protect his flock.
In twi theology it was all about us and our powers and our standing and our abilities and our operation of principles and laws, and our knowledge of the truth.
In reality, we simply became very arrogant. It takes a humility and meekness to trust in the shepherd.
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jen-o
rascal,
i love The Shepherd! :)
peace,
jen-o
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WhiteDove
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WhiteDove
It's clear that you don't want to answer the questions. It's clear that Jesus or his followers did not spend their days talking about personal evil day in day out , that's what is clear. It's clear that their warnings were to the point and then the focus was not continously on the sins of others but upon helping. Anyone can run their mouth about someone elses sins. that does not take much effort. If you want to stay stuck talking about others sins fine. Dont try to pass it off as something Jesus would do clearly he did not engage in such actions. Jesus helped those in need he did not set them down and tell them all of Herod's sins thinking that would somehow help them.
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