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Cutting Through the Fog

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Enlightening account of events surrounding that time. Additional info I learned by the accounts were that all BOT / BOD were aware of adultery doctrine and practices, Donna was in the Yak twig and thus aware as well, and the extremity of the viciousness that is wrapped within the corporate culture when one loses favor with whoever is perceived to be in power. Those are reasonably established facts.

They also serve as benchmarks to look at when people want to talk about a new changed more wonderful TWI. Have those practices changed? Donna and Rosie must have lied about Donna's knowledge of the adultery practices to justify her staying at HQ. She has a top administrative executive position now. When people lose favor there is still a viciousness of treatement. So lies, political posturing, and viciousness. All ingrained in a corporate culture that was developed in the '70's and has not changed. People want to make ad hominem attacks on the character of RD to discredit these facts. They also want to derail and discount these facts by asking "where was Jesus during this time, and why no focus on him?" Those are tactics to distract and discredit, and lead away from the way of truth, not towards it. And the fact that time has passed before these accounts were detailed and questioning the purpose. By the same logic, we should discount reading the gospels because they were written possibly 60 years or so after the events occurred. I'm sure the Sanhedrim would question the accounts and accuracy in the gospels, as it would discredit their position of political power.

Ralph comes across to me as a man governed more by his inner conscience and ethics of morality established as a Christian man than a man governed by political posturing. That is to his credit. He has even rightfully through this questioning asked some root core questions about establishing ministries as his reasons for not jumping on a spinoff bandwagon. Where's the proper training to avoid making the same mistakes?

Edited by chockfull

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...

They also serve as benchmarks to look at when people want to talk about a new changed more wonderful TWI. Have those practices changed?

...

People want to make ad hominem attacks on the character of RD to discredit these facts. They also want to derail and discount these facts by asking "where was Jesus during this time, and why no focus on him?" Those are tactics to distract and discredit, and lead away from the way of truth, not towards it.

...

Where's the proper training to avoid making the same mistakes?

Those are some very good and valid points Chockful.

Except for the central statement I have quoted here.

Since I am the one who has emphasized the need to focus on the presence of Jesus Christ ,

let me assure you it is most certainly NOT a tactic to "lead away from the way of truth."

That is as perverse a statement as I have come across in quite some time.

My intention was simply to direct our hearts into the sweet center of God's will.

Namely Jesus Christ.

I am also asserting that the failure to hold Jesus Christ as the head, and to recognize his presence is at the root of why so many good people were hurt so badly because of their association with TWI.

I will also say that The Greasespot serves the Lord well in helping us to see that TWI did not at all follow The Lord Jesus Christ in all of its practices and doctrines.

Once you recognize

that you can hold onto Christ without being involved in TWI,

then you are free indeed to be led to safe pasture.

Perhaps Ralph's boldest statement in this interview was when he told Craig

"Dr Weirwille was Wrong!"

In 1986 I would have called that heresy.

Now I recognize how right Ralph was and I am spiritually in a much better place.

Praise Be to God

I thank God for all the people, like Ralph Dubofski, who have fed me the Word and pointed me in the right direction. I am also learning to forgive those who intentionally or unintentionally hurt me or others through their disobedience to the Faith.

If you truly seek proper training, then I suggest you Give Christ a Try, and let him be Lord in your heart and life.

If you choose to investigate all the sinful and destructive practices of TWI, then

(as Jerry Garcia sang on The Festival Express)

"You Better take Jesus With You"

Peace

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"Today if you will hear his voice,

harden not your hearts"

I salute Ralph for the integrity of his Stand in 1987.

But I have to wonder why he chooses to bring it all back up now.

Why do you wonder? Can't you accept the information at face value without questioning his motives? Many people were hurt through the events and practices he addressed. That should be enough in and of itself as a clear reason to bring it all back up now. There are many details in his podcast that never have been brought up before. What's your motive in questioning?

Yes.

It is good to be aware of the presence and influence of evil in our midst.

But Why,

now that he wants to speak up,

does he fail to direct our hearts back to The Good Shepherd?

being aware of the leaven of the Pharisees in and of itself helps direct hearts back to the Good Shepherd
After listening to his diatribe my heart is aching with grief.

As are most people who have a conscience's heart. They grieve the injustice, and the years and effort spent supporting such charlatans. This is a godly thing.

Thank God for my Savior Jesus whom I can turn to.

That's where the genuine healing is.

I also thank God for my Savior Jesus Christ. He is the true head of the body, and stands in direct opposition to the functioning of pseudo leadership as described in Ralph's account.
Yes, pal.

I see Christ in Ralph Dubofski.

I am just seeing other things under the surface.

Things trying to stifle the Christ in his heart of hearts.

What is really behind this message?

What's behind your message besides a veiled reference to a mote in your brother's eye? What does this veiled reference accomplish other than to discredit his account?

Why is it that every genuine heart sharing here on GS seems to have people needing to attack it and discredit it immediately afterwards, all in the name of Jesus purporting to bring "healing" and "forgetting the past"?

Most people here have had enough of people trying to silence the atrocities commited by the leadership of TWI by sweeping them under a carpet, paying off millions in lawsuit settlements with believers ABS, and talking about some nebulous concepts of healing and forgetting the past. They could experience that in the organization.

People don't hide behavior that's appropriate, they hide behavior that is inappropriate. When the inappropriate behavior is brought to light, people can make better decisions than when it was hidden.

Are we to believe that everything the Way Ministry taught was wrong?

I think not.

Agreed. Even Jesus said of the Pharisees - "follow what they say, but don't do what they do".
We are very blessed with an incredible knowledge of the Truth.

We are even more blessed to have recognized

and pulled down

those things contrary to the obedience of Christ.

That is a day by day and thought by thought process my friend - pulling down strongholds, casting down imaginations, bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Well if I've learned anything,

it is to not buy everything an intelligent and persuasive man spits out.

sincere well-meaning Christians often do the most damage.
and I would love to hear what Ralph has learned about Christ in the past 20 years.

So write him a letter or give him a call. Asking about it in this forum in response to a sharing he made on events in the past serves nothing but to cast doubt on what he did share.

His ability to communicate Christ is sorely missed in the Church.

Which Church is this you speak of? TWI? Another Christian group? The body of Christ as described in the Bible? If the latter, how can you purport to speak for the entire body of Christ to say he has not been communicating Christ? Does casting doubt upon your brother in Christ somehow bring Christ more clearly into the picture? If so, please enlighten us how.

Edited by chockfull
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Those are some very good and valid points Chockful.

Thanks.

Except for the central statement I have quoted here.

Since I am the one who has emphasized the need to focus on the presence of Jesus Christ ,

let me assure you it is most certainly NOT a tactic to "lead away from the way of truth."

That is as perverse a statement as I have come across in quite some time.

My intention was simply to direct our hearts into the sweet center of God's will.

Namely Jesus Christ.

Intentions and what is actually accomplished at times can differ. My issues with your statements are addressed in the above post.
I am also asserting that the failure to hold Jesus Christ as the head, and to recognize his presence is at the root of why so many good people were hurt so badly because of their association with TWI.

I would agree, and add that they "teach for doctrine the commandments of men". I have always viewed Jesus Christ as the head, yet through my association with TWI and their leadership who appeared to, yet in their inner hearts and life practices did not, I was hurt as well. Is this my failure to hold JC as the head? Or just that I was deceived because I didn't know details like Ralph shared?

I will also say that The Greasespot serves the Lord well in helping us to see that TWI did not at all follow The Lord Jesus Christ in all of its practices and doctrines.
I agree with you.
Once you recognize

that you can hold onto Christ without being involved in TWI,

then you are free indeed to be led to safe pasture.

I agree with you.

Perhaps Ralph's boldest statement in this interview was when he told Craig

"Dr Weirwille was Wrong!"

In 1986 I would have called that heresy.

Now I recognize how right Ralph was and I am spiritually in a much better place.

Praise Be to God

I agree with you.
I thank God for all the people, like Ralph Dubofski, who have fed me the Word and pointed me in the right direction. I am also learning to forgive those who intentionally or unintentionally hurt me or others through their disobedience to the Faith.

I can relate to you here - I'm thankful for the Word I learned. I have forgiven and will not allow bitterness over what was lost to rule my life.

If you truly seek proper training, then I suggest you Give Christ a Try, and let him be Lord in your heart and life.
Here we go again with the insinuations. I do seek proper training, I continue to research the Word, I give Christ a try every day, and seek him to be Lord in my heart and life to the best of my ability. I'm sure like most, some days are better than others.

Maybe instead of judging others you should take your own suggestions?

If you choose to investigate all the sinful and destructive practices of TWI, then

(as Jerry Garcia sang on The Festival Express)

"You Better take Jesus With You"

Peace

Who exactly is it that you think it is that motivates exposing the sinful and destructive practices of TWI? Jesus Christ? Or the flaming head of Jerry Garcia in a vision? Or is it Satan? I'll tell you there are varying opinions on that. I know who motivates it for me.

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Thanks for taking the time to provide

such a thoughtful and detailed response Chockful.

I don't think we are too far apart in our views and

appreciate having my blind spots pointed out.

(to a degree...!!)

Yes, I do have my judgments and that is not necessarily wrong.

I also believe it is Jesus Christ motivating my expression here,

but like any other person I may be mistaken.

At first I honestly saw little profit in airing out the junk from so long ago.

However, from following the dialogs I can see it has brought resolution to many hearts.

I think the passage of time has helped bring about a healthy ability to examine these events.

If my remarks have led any to think the Trustees were innocent in these matters,

then all the more I pray they press into Christ for sound wisdom and judgment!!

I would love to give Ralph a call and hear him out.

I was hoping he might enter this dialogue,

but respect his choice to stay quiet.

If he is active in the Biblical Christian Church I'd love to know where.

I don't know much about this,

I just know Him who does.

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Estimated Prophet,

Thanks for your responses and consideration. We are as you say pretty much on the same page. These are murky waters to navigate and all of us are blind at junctures.

I am thankful for Ralph taking the time to delve into these matters, and provide some detail and clarity. I don't know what he's up to lately, but hope all the best for him.

My hopes are that we all can pursue a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and our Heavenly Father, free from the yoke of bondage and the leaven of the Pharisees. My goal and vision is that we can stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and walk the path that God enlightens for us in pursuit of His will for our lives, wherever that takes us.

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Recently I watched a documentary on Jim Jones, (drink the kool-aid guy) on PBS. I couldn't believe how much it sounded like VPW! There was an ex-Peoples Temple follower who said that Jim Jones had sex with her in the back of his bus - the motorcoach -- and told her, "I'm doing this for you, Debbie."

SAME DAMN THING I have read about Doctor!!! I am so glad that those in TWI didn't literally drink the kool aid.

I was not in the ministry -- about 7 years ago I became involved with an ex-Wayfer who told me that our adultery was just fine, that adultery in the Bible was really talking about idolatry and spiritual adultery, blah, blah. I never really bought it 100%, but enough to justify my actions. BLEAHHH! The guy finally moved on to his next victim and it took me a couple years to realize that God saved me from the jerk. Unfortunately, it ended my 15-year marriage.

Then after he married -- and after I remarried years later -- he kept calling me at work, sending me flirty e-mails. The nerve..... yeah, VPW was his hero. And he is still walking in the footsteps of his "father in the word."

Holy Smoke

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snip

I was not in the ministry -- about 7 years ago I became involved with an ex-Wayfer who told me that our adultery was just fine, that adultery in the Bible was really talking about idolatry and spiritual adultery, blah, blah. I never really bought it 100%, but enough to justify my actions. BLEAHHH! The guy finally moved on to his next victim and it took me a couple years to realize that God saved me from the jerk. Unfortunately, it ended my 15-year marriage.

Then after he married -- and after I remarried years later -- he kept calling me at work, sending me flirty e-mails. The nerve..... yeah, VPW was his hero. And he is still walking in the footsteps of his "father in the word."

Holy Smoke

It's amazing that, even though VPW has been dead for over 20 many years, his poisonous doctrines continue to harm people just as if the man had never left.

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It's amazing that, even though VPW has been dead for over 20 many years, his poisonous doctrines continue to harm people just as if the man had never left.

Do you think he's somehow "collecting" the royalties for his work...wherever he is?? Maybe like the Vatican Bank, he's got an off-shore account somewhere? :biglaugh:

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:eusa_clap::eusa_clap::eusa_clap:

Thank you so much Ralph and Paw!!!!

This may not belong on this thread, but it definitly relates to it... for me :rolleyes:

I was SOOOOO in the dark at that time in 86. I took PFAL in 83 in Southern Cali, and all the belivers were awesome and LOVED the ministry. So, I too followed suit.

About 10 of us took a very long journey across the states via plane and bus to the ROA 86. And boy was it a mess when we finally got there!! Not only it was raining so bad when we arrived, several of us didn't get our luggage for 2 days. The sadness was over whelming everywhere we went. I couldn't understand why my twig Coord, and branch Coords, were so upset. They wouldn't discuss it with us and left us high and dry during that week. I thought the Rock was supposed to be FUN and wonderful. Well, to say the least. I was 21 and very confused about what was happening.

Things were explained to us later when we got back home, but their explanations were still unclear to many of us, so we just went on continueing to love the ministry in a numb sort of state.

I later went WOW in 88,89, then went into the Corps 90,91 (21 st) Those years were weird, but not as weird as when I got to HQ in 91 for my 3rd year. I had been targeted by Craig at Family Camps, and he wanted me at HQ's. So, during Corps week, I was really sick, and my work Coord. befriended me ( which she NEVER does that ) took care of me and then the coworsing started during ROA. She kept me away from everyone who cared for me , including my boyfriend who was desperately trying to get together with me, and never did. She wanted me to meet with her and Craig and she told me things about him that totally repulsed me. I was soooo scared and had no where to turn.

He approached me several times, he would put his arm around me while looking over his shoulder to see if anyone was looking and did some small talk, and did so in a creepy way. One of the times he asked me where I was staying, and that he would come by sometime and give me a ride on his motorcycle. THAT FREAKED me out!!! I knew he was up to no good and if I didn't tell someone, things were going to get UGLY FAST!! So, when I did tell one of my friends, who had just graduated from the 19th Corps. All H*ll broke out and I was packing my bags the very next day... oh I forgot.. Craig melted my face, accused me of being a lesbian before I left <_< Then he told the Corps that was why I left :realmad: He was such a slithering snake.

Sorry about that guys... I haven't thought about it for a long time, and after listening to Ralph today, and thought wow, I was in the midst of all that and had no clue how severe it was and that it would directly affect me the way it did.

Thank God I got out when I did... And so sorry for those who didn't

Hugs

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Sunnyfla,

Thanks for sharing. It is important to make this known for your sake and for others. On the 25th or this month, Kristen Skedgell's book comes out and that should be helpful to you. It is called, Losing the Way. Her interview is in this forum and a new interview will be online before the end of the month

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I finally had the chance to listen to this!!! Thank you, Pawtucket and Ralph!! During 1986-1987, I was out of touch, so to speak, as hubby and I were building our home (after working all day at our jobs), then 6 months later, we were divorcing!! So many things went unnoticed due to all of this.

I appreciate your honesty and solid information, Ralph. It was strange to listen to.

It is not just the folks involved in twi now that need to hear this; there are tons of people who still worship VP and his words. I found that out when I starting selling my 'way' stuff on ebay. The people were extremely nice and thoughtful, gave me great feedback. BUT they are so BLINDED as many of us once were. I did tell a few about Greasespot Cafe. One person acknowledged that she was a lurker, and one acknowledged that she posted on GS but still wanted 'way' books etc.

Again, thanks to both of you!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I finally had the chance to listen to this!!! Thank you, Pawtucket and Ralph!! During 1986-1987, I was out of touch, so to speak, as hubby and I were building our home (after working all day at our jobs), then 6 months later, we were divorcing!! So many things went unnoticed due to all of this.

I appreciate your honesty and solid information, Ralph. It was strange to listen to.

Ditto, act2!

I discovered the Cafe just recently (less than two weeks ago, I think). Like you, I had a lot going on in 1986-1987 (buying a house, renovating it, having our youngest child, and divorcing), and did not know that all this was going on in the ministry. From time to time I would hear that people left or were kicked out, but until I found GSC, I didn't know what it was all about.

It was great to hear your voice again after all these years, Ralph. Pawtucket, thanks for all you do to make GSC what it is! :eusa_clap:

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Sunnyfla,

Thanks for sharing. It is important to make this known for your sake and for others. On the 25th or this month, Kristen Skedgell's book comes out and that should be helpful to you. It is called, Losing the Way. Her interview is in this forum and a new interview will be online before the end of the month

Thank you Paw for the info. I will check it out ;)

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Ralph is a great Monday morning quarterback. Sounds like the Inspector Clouseau of the ministry. Talks about operating the revelation manifestations but somehow all this stuff escaped him. Wow!

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Ralph is a great Monday morning quarterback. Sounds like the Inspector Clouseau of the ministry. Talks about operating the revelation manifestations but somehow all this stuff escaped him. Wow!

I was somewhat surprised Ralph did not know what was going on with all the sex stuff at an earlier time ... and there were other things. I missed him mentioning operating revelation.

But I think he gave an honest picture of what happened and that the insiders would not give up the practice of adultery ... and hence of (criminal?) abuses as ministers and employers. His story seems mostly verifiable.

We are discussing history ... this is not Monday, it is 22 years later. Nothing is going to change what led up to that point or what happened after. But many want to know "what happened". Many people that were at HQ say they did not see this slimy underbelly.

I missed where Ralph pats himself on the back for not picking up on this junk earlier. Any of us that were there did not stop it ... some had a better chance than others. Actions not taken sooner? That is what made it a cult.

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Ralph is a great Monday morning quarterback. Sounds like the Inspector Clouseau of the ministry. Talks about operating the revelation manifestations but somehow all this stuff escaped him. Wow!

Maybe that's because the stuff we were taught about "operating the revelation manifestations" was really just a wheel barrow full of equine excrement.

Just a thought.

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Ralph is a great Monday morning quarterback. Sounds like the Inspector Clouseau of the ministry. Talks about operating the revelation manifestations but somehow all this stuff escaped him. Wow!

Welcome, to Grease Spot!

I disagree. A Monday morning quarterback is one who offers advice or criticism after an event. Ralph did no such thing – there was no sermon, commentary, or advice given as he told his story…he merely related his experience of the events – for he was right in the thick of things!

Ralph hits me as a straight shooter – with a lot of spiritual savvy and some pretty big cahojones to confront TWI's upper crust! I'd like to re-name this thread cutting through the BS - cuz that's what he did.

I think you've got it flip flopped, saying he missed revelation. [Ya know, I can't help but think all the stuff the board of trustees claimed to be a revelation manifestation – was a bunch of BS, anyway – it was the mumbo-jumbo-magic-means to validate their own sinful desires]…Yeah – I'm not real impressed with their "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness" which cannot even see that adultery is wrong – when it's right there in black & white - in the Bible or Schoenhei+'s paper [your choice].

Anyway - nothing against you personally - I'm just offering my own Monday morning quarterback advice after listening to Ralph's interview :biglaugh: - we cut through the fog when we remove the PFAL-colored glasses and take another look at things :rolleyes: .

love & peace, T-Bone

[edited for dramatic impact]

Edited by T-Bone

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Ralph is a great Monday morning quarterback. Sounds like the Inspector Clouseau of the ministry. Talks about operating the revelation manifestations but somehow all this stuff escaped him. Wow!

You might be the sad sack QB, bud....where were you??????????????????????

"Operating the manifestations" wow, what a wacky term....how old hat can ya get.....

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sunnyfla many hugs to you

as far as RD goes, i'm thinking HUMAN.....

i'd like to know who WASN'T taken in by a cult ~ anyone ?

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ps. and i'm thinking of adding this to the clergy thread(s)

any leader or higher-up or rev. or butcher baker candlestick maker who didn't start a jerkoffshoot is okay in my book

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I suppose the thing that bothers me is that a lot of these guys that Vic ordained...and I'm talking about the ones who STILL consider themselves "clergy"...do so, without any credentials whatsoever!...no seminaries...no bible colleges (Emporia doesn't count)...no theological schools...no degrees...nada! The only thing that they hang their hat on is that a cult leader put his hand on his head...

So what is it?...Vic was wrong about what he did and what he taught EXCEPT their ordination?...

I'll toss out all the wrong doctrines but my ordination is not among them?...

Some of them are still with twi...some of them are in splinter groups...some of them are doing "other things" under the tile of "reverend"...

if they really want to be Christian ministers, why don't they go to Moody bible college and take the classes that Vic only pretended to take...go legit!...

Here's the thing...established denominations would never consider these clowns to be clergy...and that's ok with them because Vic taught them, by example, how to make money by starting their own cult...

...Whether they want to admit it or not, they are following in the steps of the cult leader that taught them...

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