"Abuse? If a man gets sex, he's not feeling abused!"
That sounds kind of sexist and stereo-typical; and just a little suggestive of promiscuity.
Do you mean that a 'christian group' would be so promiscuous? Hmm. Most of the fellowships that I was in were either all men, or mostly men (obviously those of us who had wives would be couples). But otherwise, I think the single adult females that I have seen in twigs that we have been in ugh, not more than a dozen over a period of 18 years. Not really surprizing since those twigs have mostly been sailors. Now within the branch, I have seen a couple WOW groups that were all female, but we were always forbidden to interface with them.
At the rock I went to, there was a LOT of girls. And at the Advanced class, too. I was really drooling at those things.
I did however see a couple all-female WOW groups that would have huge followings of guys (non-PFAL grads).
"Well, there was some initial fun to it all, but it got old quick and became insulting."
The 'sexual abuse' got old and insulting? Sexual abuse is wrong. I can't imagine it getting 'old'. Sexual abuse of a guy, you mean like a girl abusing a guy (not his wife?).
"There was a lot of pressure to "be a man" and behave in a sexually aggressive manner."
I can agree with the idea that men were encouraged to be: "men".
But I dont think that ever included the idea of being sexually aggressive. Maybe it did in some areas, but that is kind of close to criminal activity.
In the Navy, any report of physical abuse and the guy is prosecuted fast. I think that generally any female visiting a twig was treated politely and all the guys were usually gentlemen.
I remember in 1993, I was in Charlestown SC getting onboard the Pulaski and while there I was getting introduced to the beleivers onboard. It did seem like they all had girlfriends, and come to think of it, there was a female branch Co-ordinator. I think the girls had been a WOW group from the previous year though. I find it difficult to imagine that any of the men there were abused, nor that they were abusive of the girls either.
"My wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister/etc was victimized and it hurt my life, too."
No. To my knowledge, previous to when we first heard about the adultry issue in the BOD,
we had never seen or heard of such a thing within the Way.
I dont mean to be in denial. I am not saying that it did not happen. Obviously it did. I am only saying that to the best of my knowledge outside of Greasespot Cafe, I have never met anyone who was victimized in such a method in TWI.
Even when Corpse-nazi got weird and yelled at someone, it was usally the sailor. Never the wife. When we were out to sea, NOBODY touches another sailor's wife. I think that even a weirded-out corpse-nazi would be smart enough to keep their distance away from a sailor's wife, when the sailor is under-water (scream and yell at her, and lots of really BIG sailors would be pounding on that corpse-nazi). Fortunately our wives were never really alone for all that long, never more than 6 months at a time.
"My life will never be the same because of what happened."
I thank my G-d that my life was changed by TWI.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
I read Johnny Lingo's story...Suffice it to say I can empathize...I wouldn't call it being a victim of sexual abuse...Perhaps a target of sexual misconduct...
Any man whose wife was incorporated into somebody's stable was abused - even if you don't think of it as such. It was abuse.
Several such women had difficult times in bed with their own husbands afterward. Some outright refused their husbands sex...for whatever the reason. That is abuse to the husband plain and simple.
I'm certainly no Webster,but sometimes I think words or phrases can be used in such a broad manner so as to dilute their true meaning...IMO, "abuse" is one of them...It seems like in the last decade or so,the term has been tossed around freely in phrases such as "substance abuse","spousal abuse","child abuse","sexual abuse",etal...I've even seen the term used here to describe one poster's behavior towards another...Usually the term is broadened by the recipient of the "abuse"...
I guess one way to define whether or not somebody was a victim of sexual abuse is the degree to which they were taken advantage of or violated,and the intimidating circumstances that prevented the victim from escaping the situation...
Without spilling my guts all over the place,I'll say that I was in situations where I was:
1)12 years old,all of 100 pounds and alone in a car with a man who wanted to perform lewd sexual acts on me...He had no weapons,yet,I felt that I was quite possibly in danger if I did not comply...
2)Situations similar to Johnny L.'s while in the way...
3)Circumstances as you described regarding spouses...
Only in the first situation do I consider myself a victim of abuse....Maybe I'm just nitpicking here,but I think the intimidating,or captivating factors of a circumstance should be considered in defining whether or not one was a victim of sexual abuse...
I got chewed out for not dating enough ...I guess I was like the geeky kid in high school who never got any. I think the real abuse was aimed toward the females , but I can understand how devastating it was on the husbands and boyfriends etc of the victims. After reading Galens post, it does remind me that men were encouraged to be promiscuous to a certain degree. The teenagers bought that message hook, line and sinker, which caused many problems in my opinion.
The choices I have used here are paraphrases of things I have heard or read men say.
Galen, I am sure that being in the military made things very different.
Defining abuse...well...that's something that usually nobody agrees upon.
I do consider that others who may not have been the direct victim are still victims. It's like dropping a rock into water...the ripples radiate out and get bigger.
Thank you all so much for your input. Society does not often consider men victims...which makes it very difficult for men to come forward and heal.
After reading some responses made by men concerning sexual abuse in twi, it dawned on me that perhaps the callous and cruel attitudes could be considered another result of the abuse.
One of the reasons I started this thread was to look at the depth of the damage done. When any sort of abuse is allowed as the norm, the whole group is affected one way or another. If someone did not know, see or experience anything, he/she was still affected even if only because a victim would not turn to him/her because of fear.
quote:I feel that the "encouraged" abortions were a form of sexual abuse...and that fathers of the aborted babies were victims as well as the mothers.
I disagree that married couples who made a decision to have an abortion were sexually abused. What damn nonsense. They had that option open to them, they made the decision, and right or wrong, are responsible for it. Now years later they claim it was TWI's fault? What if it were planned parenthood doing the counselling? I suppose it would be their fault as well.
I knew a married couple in TWI who didn't plan to get pregnant, but did. They made the decision to get the abortion, for whatever reason; I don't know if they were counselled about it but it was none of mine or anyone else's business. It was an option open to them, and they chose it. Now is it fair to blame TWI years later? Whatever you believe is your choice, go ahead, but my vote is I don't think they were sexually abused by any stretch of the imagination.
Promoting abortion is not sexual abuse, even if the tactics used to promote it are abusive.
Knowing and loving a victim of sexual abuse is not being a victim of sexual abuse.
I think that there is a tendency among some to include things in the "abuse" and "victim of abuse" categories that don't reasonably belong. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of simonzelotes' opinions about abuse and victimhood, I agree that using the words too loosely dilutes their meaning and reduces their impact.
The raging debates over what does and does not constitute abuse have been had over and over here. Nobody agrees. So what? That doesn't change what a person went through or how their lives were hurt.
I was hoping that some men would want to talk about what happened to them...or how they felt about what happened to those they knew/loved.
Arguing the point is not what I was looking for here.
So, Long Gone, do you have a story of your own sexual abuse in twi? That is the topic of this thread.
hey OM... didja know that TWI was/is a CULT that practiced/practices MIND CONTROL techniques...????
didja know that EVERYTHING was geared to make you believe that whatever they told you was right? don't believe it if you haven't heard it from us? eventually convinced many that "free will = their will" thereby effectively taking away most of your free will through fear and intimidation???
didja know that??? what cult were you in???
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
I admitted no such thing. I said that I MYSELF will not post my abuse stories here because I KNOW how people like you will misconstrue it all, JUST LIKE you just did with my previous post.
Apology accepted, and with a heartfelt THANK YOU included.
But there are still many others ready to pounce on anything I write, so this particular subject of abuse toward males I reserve for private communications.
Please know that my jumping on you wasn't about you in particular. I was in defense mode...so I was jumping on everybody. Nothing personal (to you or OM or Long Gone or anyone else), although I'm sure it felt personal.
I can't get into the abuse discussions for very long because I tend to relive some situations when I hear some phrases or "buzz words". That's on me. I know to back out before I get like that. I just didn't do it soon enough this time.
You wrote: ?Please know that my jumping on you wasn't about you in particular. I was in defense mode...so I was jumping on everybody. Nothing personal (to you or OM or Long Gone or anyone else), although I'm sure it felt personal.?
The exact same thing has happened to me here many times, so I can totally relate. God bless you.
I mentioned it as a "sexual abuse" experience, but really I said it with tongue in cheek. It was definitely not what I expected from this clergy gal, but it was also "not unpleasant". I mean after all, I AM a guy, and I wouldn't have responded the way I did with my heart pounding if I had felt "abused" or disrespected, or whatever. I mean, you all know what it is like when you get turned on, right? Like I said when I wrote the incident, I was kinda flattered too because she was a beautiful woman, and most guys like the idea of being "wanted" in that way by a pretty woman. Sorry, but it is in my physical make up to like sex, and most likely it is the same with most guys..
But even though the seduction was exciting (and really, she did it well), I also knew that it was wrong, off the Word, whatever, and that the thing to do was to leave like Joseph did when Potiphera (Potiphar's wife) said to him "Come lie with me!" I am amazed that I actually left when I did, and a few times I wanted to go back there again, but I didn't. So, I just chose to look at as I said before, that she was a thirty something gal that needed/wanted some sex, but that she made the wrong decision before God when she persued me. She woulda been better off saying something to me about the Word, because she didn't actually come up with the object of her desire anyway.
And yes, it did seem incongruous that a clergy woman would make that attempt instead of something more godly. I will say that I never really thought much of it over the years, and only posted it after I had read of some of the abuse posted about here at the GS. I don't know that it affected me negatively, really. I just moved on. And this gal did marry a fine and handsome young man by the way, and the last I heard they are still married...
I also would have to refer to this as an attempt at "sexual mis-conduct" and not sexual abuse. I guess it could have developed into abuse if she had chained me up... Or worse, if I fell in love with her because of the relationship, but to her it was "just sport sex". But it never went that far. I feel that if I had been willing to "go with it", then I too would have had to share in the responsibility...
[This message was edited by Jonny Lingo on January 08, 2004 at 15:07.]
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wow... look at those results... ya know CW, your poll choices are a lot like the stages we went through...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Galen
Coolness-
"Abuse? If a man gets sex, he's not feeling abused!"
That sounds kind of sexist and stereo-typical; and just a little suggestive of promiscuity.
Do you mean that a 'christian group' would be so promiscuous? Hmm. Most of the fellowships that I was in were either all men, or mostly men (obviously those of us who had wives would be couples). But otherwise, I think the single adult females that I have seen in twigs that we have been in ugh, not more than a dozen over a period of 18 years. Not really surprizing since those twigs have mostly been sailors. Now within the branch, I have seen a couple WOW groups that were all female, but we were always forbidden to interface with them.
At the rock I went to, there was a LOT of girls. And at the Advanced class, too. I was really drooling at those things.
I did however see a couple all-female WOW groups that would have huge followings of guys (non-PFAL grads).
"Well, there was some initial fun to it all, but it got old quick and became insulting."
The 'sexual abuse' got old and insulting? Sexual abuse is wrong. I can't imagine it getting 'old'. Sexual abuse of a guy, you mean like a girl abusing a guy (not his wife?).
"There was a lot of pressure to "be a man" and behave in a sexually aggressive manner."
I can agree with the idea that men were encouraged to be: "men".
But I dont think that ever included the idea of being sexually aggressive. Maybe it did in some areas, but that is kind of close to criminal activity.
In the Navy, any report of physical abuse and the guy is prosecuted fast. I think that generally any female visiting a twig was treated politely and all the guys were usually gentlemen.
I remember in 1993, I was in Charlestown SC getting onboard the Pulaski and while there I was getting introduced to the beleivers onboard. It did seem like they all had girlfriends, and come to think of it, there was a female branch Co-ordinator. I think the girls had been a WOW group from the previous year though. I find it difficult to imagine that any of the men there were abused, nor that they were abusive of the girls either.
"My wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister/etc was victimized and it hurt my life, too."
No. To my knowledge, previous to when we first heard about the adultry issue in the BOD,
we had never seen or heard of such a thing within the Way.
I dont mean to be in denial. I am not saying that it did not happen. Obviously it did. I am only saying that to the best of my knowledge outside of Greasespot Cafe, I have never met anyone who was victimized in such a method in TWI.
Even when Corpse-nazi got weird and yelled at someone, it was usally the sailor. Never the wife. When we were out to sea, NOBODY touches another sailor's wife. I think that even a weirded-out corpse-nazi would be smart enough to keep their distance away from a sailor's wife, when the sailor is under-water (scream and yell at her, and lots of really BIG sailors would be pounding on that corpse-nazi). Fortunately our wives were never really alone for all that long, never more than 6 months at a time.
"My life will never be the same because of what happened."
I thank my G-d that my life was changed by TWI.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
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simonzelotes
I read Johnny Lingo's story...Suffice it to say I can empathize...I wouldn't call it being a victim of sexual abuse...Perhaps a target of sexual misconduct...
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krys
Any man whose wife was incorporated into somebody's stable was abused - even if you don't think of it as such. It was abuse.
Several such women had difficult times in bed with their own husbands afterward. Some outright refused their husbands sex...for whatever the reason. That is abuse to the husband plain and simple.
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simonzelotes
krysilis,
I'm certainly no Webster,but sometimes I think words or phrases can be used in such a broad manner so as to dilute their true meaning...IMO, "abuse" is one of them...It seems like in the last decade or so,the term has been tossed around freely in phrases such as "substance abuse","spousal abuse","child abuse","sexual abuse",etal...I've even seen the term used here to describe one poster's behavior towards another...Usually the term is broadened by the recipient of the "abuse"...
I guess one way to define whether or not somebody was a victim of sexual abuse is the degree to which they were taken advantage of or violated,and the intimidating circumstances that prevented the victim from escaping the situation...
Without spilling my guts all over the place,I'll say that I was in situations where I was:
1)12 years old,all of 100 pounds and alone in a car with a man who wanted to perform lewd sexual acts on me...He had no weapons,yet,I felt that I was quite possibly in danger if I did not comply...
2)Situations similar to Johnny L.'s while in the way...
3)Circumstances as you described regarding spouses...
Only in the first situation do I consider myself a victim of abuse....Maybe I'm just nitpicking here,but I think the intimidating,or captivating factors of a circumstance should be considered in defining whether or not one was a victim of sexual abuse...
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Technocrat
I got chewed out for not dating enough ...I guess I was like the geeky kid in high school who never got any. I think the real abuse was aimed toward the females , but I can understand how devastating it was on the husbands and boyfriends etc of the victims. After reading Galens post, it does remind me that men were encouraged to be promiscuous to a certain degree. The teenagers bought that message hook, line and sinker, which caused many problems in my opinion.
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CoolWaters
The choices I have used here are paraphrases of things I have heard or read men say.
Galen, I am sure that being in the military made things very different.
Defining abuse...well...that's something that usually nobody agrees upon.
I do consider that others who may not have been the direct victim are still victims. It's like dropping a rock into water...the ripples radiate out and get bigger.
Thank you all so much for your input. Society does not often consider men victims...which makes it very difficult for men to come forward and heal.
After reading some responses made by men concerning sexual abuse in twi, it dawned on me that perhaps the callous and cruel attitudes could be considered another result of the abuse.
One of the reasons I started this thread was to look at the depth of the damage done. When any sort of abuse is allowed as the norm, the whole group is affected one way or another. If someone did not know, see or experience anything, he/she was still affected even if only because a victim would not turn to him/her because of fear.
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oldiesman
I disagree that married couples who made a decision to have an abortion were sexually abused. What damn nonsense. They had that option open to them, they made the decision, and right or wrong, are responsible for it. Now years later they claim it was TWI's fault? What if it were planned parenthood doing the counselling? I suppose it would be their fault as well.
I knew a married couple in TWI who didn't plan to get pregnant, but did. They made the decision to get the abortion, for whatever reason; I don't know if they were counselled about it but it was none of mine or anyone else's business. It was an option open to them, and they chose it. Now is it fair to blame TWI years later? Whatever you believe is your choice, go ahead, but my vote is I don't think they were sexually abused by any stretch of the imagination.
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CoolWaters
OM...do you have a story of your own sexual abuse in twi? That is the topic of this thread.
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LG
IMO...
Johnny Lingo's story is not one of sexual abuse.
Promoting abortion is not sexual abuse, even if the tactics used to promote it are abusive.
Knowing and loving a victim of sexual abuse is not being a victim of sexual abuse.
I think that there is a tendency among some to include things in the "abuse" and "victim of abuse" categories that don't reasonably belong. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of simonzelotes' opinions about abuse and victimhood, I agree that using the words too loosely dilutes their meaning and reduces their impact.
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CoolWaters
Sigh.
The raging debates over what does and does not constitute abuse have been had over and over here. Nobody agrees. So what? That doesn't change what a person went through or how their lives were hurt.
I was hoping that some men would want to talk about what happened to them...or how they felt about what happened to those they knew/loved.
Arguing the point is not what I was looking for here.
So, Long Gone, do you have a story of your own sexual abuse in twi? That is the topic of this thread.
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Tom Strange
hey OM... didja know that TWI was/is a CULT that practiced/practices MIND CONTROL techniques...????
didja know that EVERYTHING was geared to make you believe that whatever they told you was right? don't believe it if you haven't heard it from us? eventually convinced many that "free will = their will" thereby effectively taking away most of your free will through fear and intimidation???
didja know that??? what cult were you in???
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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LG
CoolWaters,
My post directly related to your opening post. If it is not on topic, then nothing you have written in this thread is either.
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CoolWaters
UNCLE!!!!!!!!!!!
Nevermind.
Who in the hell is going to post their experiences knowing that there's folks waiting in the wings to jump on them?
Is that you all's point?
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Mike
Yeah! ESPECIALLY mine!
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CoolWaters
Edited because I was such a beavis...
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on January 31, 2004 at 20:41.]
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LG
Coolwaters,
In case you've missed it, I have been among the more vocal supporters of sexual abuse victims.
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Mike
CW,
I admitted no such thing. I said that I MYSELF will not post my abuse stories here because I KNOW how people like you will misconstrue it all, JUST LIKE you just did with my previous post.
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CoolWaters
Oh geeze, Mike. I'm sorry.
Sigh.
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CoolWaters
Long Gone,
OK.
I'm backing out of the topic and other such topics for a little while...I'm getting too defensive.
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Mike
CW,
Apology accepted, and with a heartfelt THANK YOU included.
But there are still many others ready to pounce on anything I write, so this particular subject of abuse toward males I reserve for private communications.
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CoolWaters
Mike,
Thank you.
Please know that my jumping on you wasn't about you in particular. I was in defense mode...so I was jumping on everybody. Nothing personal (to you or OM or Long Gone or anyone else), although I'm sure it felt personal.
I can't get into the abuse discussions for very long because I tend to relive some situations when I hear some phrases or "buzz words". That's on me. I know to back out before I get like that. I just didn't do it soon enough this time.
Have a great day.
:)-->
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Mike
CW,
You wrote: ?Please know that my jumping on you wasn't about you in particular. I was in defense mode...so I was jumping on everybody. Nothing personal (to you or OM or Long Gone or anyone else), although I'm sure it felt personal.?
The exact same thing has happened to me here many times, so I can totally relate. God bless you.
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J0nny Ling0
Concerning my sexual abuse experience.
I mentioned it as a "sexual abuse" experience, but really I said it with tongue in cheek. It was definitely not what I expected from this clergy gal, but it was also "not unpleasant". I mean after all, I AM a guy, and I wouldn't have responded the way I did with my heart pounding if I had felt "abused" or disrespected, or whatever. I mean, you all know what it is like when you get turned on, right? Like I said when I wrote the incident, I was kinda flattered too because she was a beautiful woman, and most guys like the idea of being "wanted" in that way by a pretty woman. Sorry, but it is in my physical make up to like sex, and most likely it is the same with most guys..
But even though the seduction was exciting (and really, she did it well), I also knew that it was wrong, off the Word, whatever, and that the thing to do was to leave like Joseph did when Potiphera (Potiphar's wife) said to him "Come lie with me!" I am amazed that I actually left when I did, and a few times I wanted to go back there again, but I didn't. So, I just chose to look at as I said before, that she was a thirty something gal that needed/wanted some sex, but that she made the wrong decision before God when she persued me. She woulda been better off saying something to me about the Word, because she didn't actually come up with the object of her desire anyway.
And yes, it did seem incongruous that a clergy woman would make that attempt instead of something more godly. I will say that I never really thought much of it over the years, and only posted it after I had read of some of the abuse posted about here at the GS. I don't know that it affected me negatively, really. I just moved on. And this gal did marry a fine and handsome young man by the way, and the last I heard they are still married...
I also would have to refer to this as an attempt at "sexual mis-conduct" and not sexual abuse. I guess it could have developed into abuse if she had chained me up...
Or worse, if I fell in love with her because of the relationship, but to her it was "just sport sex". But it never went that far. I feel that if I had been willing to "go with it", then I too would have had to share in the responsibility...
[This message was edited by Jonny Lingo on January 08, 2004 at 15:07.]
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