I find it rather sad that what started as an effort to remember Sandra Ann Sullivan has deteriorated into a platform promoting the "Wierwille Admiration Society"
(As do far too many other well intentioned threads.)
I'm struck, reading this, with thinking about how everyone is so individual and unique with varying coping skills. If I have a student or other client in my office, I have to get the whole picture, the entire story, consider more than just what I see on the outside at presentation. Wierwille, as a preacher, leader, whatever the hell he was, "should" have had the understanding that his actions very well could push this particular woman into a place from which she'd never recover. Of course discussing what Wierwille should have done is somewhere beyond logical or reasonable; not even an option.
For whatever reason this woman made the choice to end her own life, only she knows the answer to it's complete and total reason.
Did Wierwille's actions contribute heavily to that? I'd lean over toward yes in a huge way. Without giving him any credit or room, I'd also add that often it's not just one incident or circumstance that plummets someone to such depths, but one circumstance can trigger the whole life into such action, sort of tip someone over.
We can't know of Sandra's background, childhood, whether or not she felt loved and valued by many or none. Was her experiences with this man just one more of many, was this her "if one more_____happens, I'm done".
Any of us can speculate about her life, her pain, her actions. Bless her heart, whatever happened, she felt she had to make the decision she did. It does, indeed, speak highly of what this board is all about in the first place.
I considered holding TWI culpable in the death of my husband because of their teaching on sickness is weakness, perhaps causing him to not seek medical assist. Bottom line is that my grief, my children's eyes, my pain led me to want to make someone, anyone responsible. Should TWI have come to me and apologized for teaching him that? Maybe it could have been comforting, but what would it serve, really, in the end he's still dead.
Could these men have said or done things differant, accepting and admitting whatever their actions did to push her further? Sure, but they didn't, so far as we know, and it would have been too little too late. Emotions figure in during a tragic loss such as this (or any, really) and we want to blame, we want to have someone admit to contributing, we want, need! to hear someone admit to something that make any kind of sense. We know it isn't going to happen, even if the man/men were alive. And it still doesn't soothe the loss or calm the ache. That was never Wierwille's style in the first place.
I am not crazy about Sandra's life and pain and ultimate decision splayed all over here for discussion either, but it does speak of the abuse and the control and the rage with which we should continue the fight. We also can not know what this kind of discussion might do or has already done to prompt the escape of another young woman or give yet another the answers she's been seeking for years since her own abusive encounter with him/them. So, in that regard, I can see the good of a thread about her..............sigh.
Waysider, I get your desire to have a memory of her here and thank you. I didn't know Sandra, but I'd wager that she was wonderful, loved God, wanted to know him better and more and did her very best to do what she believed was the right thing. I'm sorry for this loss.
So if you walked in the door to this person's house, and s/he had a gun to h/her head and was about to pull the trigger, would you attempt to intervene?
What does this question have to do with the topic at hand? This question suggests that Dr. and Howard had knowledge of the suicide and consented to it, but I haven't read anything suggesting that. Del said "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail." To say we know what all went on behind the scenes and knew what was in everyone's mind is folly... we don't know.
I'd like to remind you.. those SISTERS in Christ, they are supposed to be like family- SUPPOSED to be like brothers, sisters, uncles, cousins..maybe that's too much to ask another human being..
A sister in Christ commits suicide, and two brothers in Christ (at least one of them pre-determined to be a monster) gets blamed for it. The sister's own actions are completely exonerated, while the brothers get blamed for an act they have no knowledge of, no control over, no consent offered. This is madness!
To my knowledge, no one ever "Wants" to commit suicide. They don't want to really end their life. They just want out of the pain and they have tried every solution that they know to do that without any results......the last solution they have is suicide. They just can not stand the pain any longer and not having "hope" of ever not having pain and recovering is just not there for them. So, the "only" thing left to do is to end their life. Pain can be really, really, deep along with shame. And the decision to end life is not a quick decision.....It is something that happens over time.....as they try this and that and nothing seems to work. They don't realize that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation......They just want out of the pain and feel they have no other option.
Did Wierwille's actions contribute heavily to that? I'd lean over toward yes in a huge way. Without giving him any credit or room, I'd also add that often it's not just one incident or circumstance that plummets someone to such depths, but one circumstance can trigger the whole life into such action, sort of tip someone over.
We can't know of Sandra's background, childhood, whether or not she felt loved and valued by many or none. Was her experiences with this man just one more of many, was this her "if one more_____happens, I'm done".
Anyone that has weaknesses should be able to trust their minister absolutely. It seems VP's position as minister (or even more so as MOGFOT) puts more burden on him than any previous Joe Sixpacks. A person should expect to be able to open up to their minister or counselor without fear of being compromised. So there is more burden placed on those professionals ... to be professional.
On another level, VP was a boss, and had a responsibility to not use that power to pursue his own harmful lusts. He broke this obligation as well. (I know you understand this Shellon, I'm just emphasizing it)
I'm not trying to pile on ... vp's sins are obvious ... but Sandra or anyone should have a reasonable expectation to not be abused by a minister or a boss. Both positions carry greater power and responsibility than more neutral relationships.
It reminds me of vp's (probably made up) story about the alcoholic ... "I came here for help and you only put me in deeper" IF someone goes to a minister ... it may be as a last resort and when they are most open and vulnerable, which only makes it that much more heinous when that confidence is violated.
VP didn't punch people in the nose ... he consistently violated a sacred trust, and made up doctrine to justify his actions. Those malicious acts alone rank right up there with murder in my book ... whether it was ministerial negligent homicide in that case, I don't know.
Madness indeed Oldies ... VP's guilt is apparent, regardless of how much he contributed in Sandra's case. As MOGFOT ... what did he do to heal her? He was so "myopic" that he saw her for sex ... but aparently that sex was not so healing as he (and lcm) claimed. Your defense of vp is that she was still alive the last time he saw her? Sandra is one example of the extreme repercussions of VP's malicious abuse of his position, even if he was not fully responsible for her death.
Of course maybe worse, was turning a whole group of other possibly good ministers into villains. A church should be a place of refuge from the wolves of the world, but it appears vp turned many of the young (with minds that open and eyes that ask) into lecherous predators or scarred victims (or both).
A "socialpath" as you consider is not going to change his behaviour because your educated.
so I guess what your saying is if you educate yourself enough you can avoid people doing bad things that victimize you?
ok i will buy that good luck with your mission.
it just seems to me most "social paths " as defined in this thread are not being very much changed or stopped by anyones education about their personality .
the head line stories of that one that did that crime are almost always AFTER the fact.
no one writes geez larry here has all the traits and the personality of a "social path" with any amount of education and can anyone predict his next behaviour? maybe but does it change anything at all?
i believe that is why the paper said to move away from the relationship and not try to force change.
but one social path to you may be the great company man or husband or wife and parent to another.
it is about each person taking responsibility for their own life as oldman states.
if you think somone is a social path you cant change anything about him/ her but you can take responsibility for how you chose to interact with them.
This is why learning basic writing skills is so important.
Unfortunately, people will judge the content of your message by it's form. (Spelling, punctuation, subject/verb agreement, etc.)
What does this question have to do with the topic at hand? This question suggests that Dr. and Howard had knowledge of the suicide and consented to it, but I haven't read anything suggesting that.
Before going on with this post I would like to repeat Shell's sentiments regarding how uncomfortable it is to spew a young girl's life and pain here. Hopefully something good comes of all this.
Regarding your post OM - I remember Icky Vic was fond of saying that if a person wasn't part of the solution then they were part of the problem.
Del said "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail." To say we know what all went on behind the scenes and knew what was in everyone's mind is folly... we don't know.
So these men knew she was in distress. They knew. But they sat on their thumbs and did nothing. No counsel. No offer to get her some professional help. No effort whatsoever to become part of a solution.
Nevermind that H0ward the (rhymes with)Duck and the victard both had her. They were at the very least a part of the problem. What part? I suspect more than you're willing to admit, given your posts here.
You know, when my friend was battling deep depression, I called the pastor of the Church he attended and told him I feared my friend was suicidal. Nothing more was asked of me. The pastor set up counseling sessions with my friend and a psychiatrist who was also a member of the Church.
Sure, S^ndy took her own life, but don't fool yourself into thinking that these men you defend so vehemently have no blood on their hands. They knew she was drowning in despair and they stood at the edge and waited. To me, it's the equivalent of a lifeguard standing on the shore and not budging to save a drowning person.
They knew she was drowning in despair and they stood at the edge and waited. To me, it's the equivalent of a lifeguard standing on the shore and not budging to save a drowning person.
More like they pushed her back in after she thought she had made it to the safety of the shore.
A sister in Christ commits suicide, and two brothers in Christ (at least one of them pre-determined to be a monster) gets blamed for it. The sister's own actions are completely exonerated, while the brothers get blamed for an act they have no knowledge of, no control over, no consent offered. This is madness!
did you just call those two "brothers in Christ"?!?
speak for yourself, oldies; i categorically deny that a false prophet is a "brother in Christ"!!
and to consider him as such is an outrage (imo)...
also, as doojable has pointed out: they knew and did NOTHING!!
THAT is what i consider true madness!!
(and they claimed to be ministers of the truth) gag!
oldies, they are definitely culpable (whether you want to give them a free pass or not)
there is such a thing as "reckless disregard for life" and it is ILLEGAL!
did you just call those two "brothers in Christ"?!?
speak for yourself, oldies; i categorically deny that a false prophet is a "brother in Christ"!!
and to consider him as such is an outrage (imo)...
also, as doojable has pointed out: they knew and did NOTHING!!
THAT is what i consider true madness!!
(and they claimed to be ministers of the truth) gag!
oldies, they are definitely culpable (whether you want to give them a free pass or not)
there is such a thing as "reckless disregard for life" and it is ILLEGAL!
When did they know of an impending suicide? If they knew a suicide was going to happen and did nothing, that's a whole different light on the matter. But no, to speculate on what they supposedly knew about the suicide is folly... we don't know what they knew about this act.
Yes they are brothers in Christ, and I do speak for myself and my experience with these guys, taking into account their own stated beliefs in God and Christ as well. You speak for yourself when you call VP a false prophet, and you are free to do so.
So these men knew she was in distress. They knew. But they sat on their thumbs and did nothing. No counsel. No offer to get her some professional help. No effort whatsoever to become part of a solution.
BTW - In this case - being a "Brother in Christ" is worst than just being some mook off the street.
Kinda looks like they weren't as "spiritual tuned in" as they would have had us believe.
Wierwille claimed suicide was caused by a devil spirit yet he failed to spot this supposed "spirit" in this young woman.
That's not a very encouraging endorsement for his so-called "spiritual perception".
In fact, it's not much of an endorsement for the whole concept of "devil possession".
waysider......good points!
It never ceases to amaze me......whenever wierwille's "spiritual perception" is held to the standard of his advanced class, he just can't spot dem debbil spurts, can he?
Or you think he would have at least gotten revelation the girl was suicidal and not to screw that one.
Surely God would have warned him?
Gee, not very perceptive was he? Not walking with God there.
What a conman VP was, what a sham, MOG my butt.
Oldies, you have never once, ever, in all the years I've seen you on this board, ever felt anything for one of VP's women that he destroyed or ruined.
Not once.
Ever.
I'm beginning to believe you have no conscience.
Bird of a feather flock together - you can have your idol VP and your attendant idol worship of him that goes with it.
Someday, something's going to happen that will open your eyes, shake you to the core, and you will bow down and ask Christ's forgiveness for your hard heart - for by your words, you show that you do not know Him. You know and worship VP, not Christ.
You know, scriptures talk about Jesus as the shepherd. It talks about the shepherd that leaves the 99 sheep in search of the one missing member of the flock. The analogy of the loving shepherd that guides his flock to food and water, whom protects them from harm....Scripture doesn`t talk about him saying *stupid sheep, it`s all your fault that you are lost, hurt and injured* *It isn`t my fault that you got yourself in this mess* * I can`t be bothered to rescue and nurture you, go ahead and die...it`s ok because I have these other 99 to feed and cloth me*. No it was the shepherds job to search, to rescue, to rejoice when he finds the cherished missing member.....to nurture that precious one back to health.
Wierwille always talked about God in Christ in us....but in his case I don`t believe that love was in him when looking at how disposable people were. I really don`t see much Christ like at all in his behavior. It was all just words.
It`s like he claimed to be working for the master, he was entrusted with a flock, boasting himself a shepherd, and then led the flock away to feast on them and sit on his fanny and do nothing to nurture or protect.
Was he really a shepherd? Was he really working for the master to whom we belonged? Rather than ask these tough questions...Rather than hold the thief whom masqueraded as a shepherd and then led the masters flock off to feed off to feed of of....We want to say...
Stupid sheep, you shouldn`t have followed that man...
Stupid sheep you shouldn`t have fallen in that hole...
Stupid sheep, you shouldn`t have let that wolf get so close...
Isn`t that why the flock needs a shepherd? a protector? a Guide?? Do you suppose that is why God uses this analogy? Maybe because we really don`t always see all of the dangers and pitfalls that are continually about us? That we need someone that can guide us with compassion, and who`s job it is to be ever vigilant in order to warn us of the dangers?
I grieve over the pain that this girl suffered. I grieve that she didn`t have a legitimate minister to turn to for help. I grieve that she felt that the pain was so intense that she felt this was her only option :(
Oldies, no doubt you are gleefully reporting people left and right for personal attacks. I wonder if that isn`t really why you are so deliberately provoking people.
I earnestly wish that you could step back from the little game long enough to actually consider the impact of your *opinion*.
Can you grieve with us for a sister that we lost? Can you grieve for that 100th member of our flock that was devoured by the ravening wolves...this precious and real person whom is forever lost to us?
Can you see how hurtful the attitude of *stupiddamnedsheep, it`s all her own fault*?
This is why learning basic writing skills is so important.
Unfortunately, people will judge the content of your message by it's form. (Spelling, punctuation, subject/verb agreement, etc.)
Hate to be a stickler ... but if you're criticizing, you SHOULD know that the correct form if "its" was not used in your reply.... you used the "it is" form, not the "its" (possessive) form ... so yes, people WILL judge the content of your message by its form.
I rarely waste my time arguing with you, Oldies, but I will say one thing about this: If someone had pushed this poor girl off a bridge, you'd say it was her fault because she shouldn't have been standing on a bridge.
Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more insults. Please note:
These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more insults. Please note:
QUOTEThese forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
You do realize that as you're pointing fingers at all of us, you've got 3 pointing right back at yourself, right?
It just seems.. if one views another's opinion as toxic and despicable, and conditions reach an impasse with no hope of any kind of reasonable reconciliation, what other option is there?
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Watered Garden
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed. I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should.
Ham
What I can't understand is how someone could sink as low as to name their offspring after him..
Ham
Hmm.. like the Boys from Brazil I guess.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_from_Brazil_(film) Same here..
waysider
I find it rather sad that what started as an effort to remember Sandra Ann Sullivan has deteriorated into a platform promoting the "Wierwille Admiration Society"
(As do far too many other well intentioned threads.)
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Shellon
I'm struck, reading this, with thinking about how everyone is so individual and unique with varying coping skills. If I have a student or other client in my office, I have to get the whole picture, the entire story, consider more than just what I see on the outside at presentation. Wierwille, as a preacher, leader, whatever the hell he was, "should" have had the understanding that his actions very well could push this particular woman into a place from which she'd never recover. Of course discussing what Wierwille should have done is somewhere beyond logical or reasonable; not even an option.
For whatever reason this woman made the choice to end her own life, only she knows the answer to it's complete and total reason.
Did Wierwille's actions contribute heavily to that? I'd lean over toward yes in a huge way. Without giving him any credit or room, I'd also add that often it's not just one incident or circumstance that plummets someone to such depths, but one circumstance can trigger the whole life into such action, sort of tip someone over.
We can't know of Sandra's background, childhood, whether or not she felt loved and valued by many or none. Was her experiences with this man just one more of many, was this her "if one more_____happens, I'm done".
Any of us can speculate about her life, her pain, her actions. Bless her heart, whatever happened, she felt she had to make the decision she did. It does, indeed, speak highly of what this board is all about in the first place.
I considered holding TWI culpable in the death of my husband because of their teaching on sickness is weakness, perhaps causing him to not seek medical assist. Bottom line is that my grief, my children's eyes, my pain led me to want to make someone, anyone responsible. Should TWI have come to me and apologized for teaching him that? Maybe it could have been comforting, but what would it serve, really, in the end he's still dead.
Could these men have said or done things differant, accepting and admitting whatever their actions did to push her further? Sure, but they didn't, so far as we know, and it would have been too little too late. Emotions figure in during a tragic loss such as this (or any, really) and we want to blame, we want to have someone admit to contributing, we want, need! to hear someone admit to something that make any kind of sense. We know it isn't going to happen, even if the man/men were alive. And it still doesn't soothe the loss or calm the ache. That was never Wierwille's style in the first place.
I am not crazy about Sandra's life and pain and ultimate decision splayed all over here for discussion either, but it does speak of the abuse and the control and the rage with which we should continue the fight. We also can not know what this kind of discussion might do or has already done to prompt the escape of another young woman or give yet another the answers she's been seeking for years since her own abusive encounter with him/them. So, in that regard, I can see the good of a thread about her..............sigh.
Waysider, I get your desire to have a memory of her here and thank you. I didn't know Sandra, but I'd wager that she was wonderful, loved God, wanted to know him better and more and did her very best to do what she believed was the right thing. I'm sorry for this loss.
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oldiesman
What does this question have to do with the topic at hand? This question suggests that Dr. and Howard had knowledge of the suicide and consented to it, but I haven't read anything suggesting that. Del said "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail." To say we know what all went on behind the scenes and knew what was in everyone's mind is folly... we don't know.
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oldiesman
A sister in Christ commits suicide, and two brothers in Christ (at least one of them pre-determined to be a monster) gets blamed for it. The sister's own actions are completely exonerated, while the brothers get blamed for an act they have no knowledge of, no control over, no consent offered. This is madness!
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newlife
To my knowledge, no one ever "Wants" to commit suicide. They don't want to really end their life. They just want out of the pain and they have tried every solution that they know to do that without any results......the last solution they have is suicide. They just can not stand the pain any longer and not having "hope" of ever not having pain and recovering is just not there for them. So, the "only" thing left to do is to end their life. Pain can be really, really, deep along with shame. And the decision to end life is not a quick decision.....It is something that happens over time.....as they try this and that and nothing seems to work. They don't realize that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation......They just want out of the pain and feel they have no other option.
I speak from experience.
Shellon, as always, loved your post!!!
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rhino
Anyone that has weaknesses should be able to trust their minister absolutely. It seems VP's position as minister (or even more so as MOGFOT) puts more burden on him than any previous Joe Sixpacks. A person should expect to be able to open up to their minister or counselor without fear of being compromised. So there is more burden placed on those professionals ... to be professional.
On another level, VP was a boss, and had a responsibility to not use that power to pursue his own harmful lusts. He broke this obligation as well. (I know you understand this Shellon, I'm just emphasizing it)
I'm not trying to pile on ... vp's sins are obvious ... but Sandra or anyone should have a reasonable expectation to not be abused by a minister or a boss. Both positions carry greater power and responsibility than more neutral relationships.
It reminds me of vp's (probably made up) story about the alcoholic ... "I came here for help and you only put me in deeper" IF someone goes to a minister ... it may be as a last resort and when they are most open and vulnerable, which only makes it that much more heinous when that confidence is violated.
VP didn't punch people in the nose ... he consistently violated a sacred trust, and made up doctrine to justify his actions. Those malicious acts alone rank right up there with murder in my book ... whether it was ministerial negligent homicide in that case, I don't know.
Madness indeed Oldies ... VP's guilt is apparent, regardless of how much he contributed in Sandra's case. As MOGFOT ... what did he do to heal her? He was so "myopic" that he saw her for sex ... but aparently that sex was not so healing as he (and lcm) claimed. Your defense of vp is that she was still alive the last time he saw her? Sandra is one example of the extreme repercussions of VP's malicious abuse of his position, even if he was not fully responsible for her death.
Of course maybe worse, was turning a whole group of other possibly good ministers into villains. A church should be a place of refuge from the wolves of the world, but it appears vp turned many of the young (with minds that open and eyes that ask) into lecherous predators or scarred victims (or both).
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Yanagisawa
This is why learning basic writing skills is so important.
Unfortunately, people will judge the content of your message by it's form. (Spelling, punctuation, subject/verb agreement, etc.)
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doojable
Before going on with this post I would like to repeat Shell's sentiments regarding how uncomfortable it is to spew a young girl's life and pain here. Hopefully something good comes of all this.
Regarding your post OM - I remember Icky Vic was fond of saying that if a person wasn't part of the solution then they were part of the problem.
So these men knew she was in distress. They knew. But they sat on their thumbs and did nothing. No counsel. No offer to get her some professional help. No effort whatsoever to become part of a solution.
Nevermind that H0ward the (rhymes with)Duck and the victard both had her. They were at the very least a part of the problem. What part? I suspect more than you're willing to admit, given your posts here.
You know, when my friend was battling deep depression, I called the pastor of the Church he attended and told him I feared my friend was suicidal. Nothing more was asked of me. The pastor set up counseling sessions with my friend and a psychiatrist who was also a member of the Church.
Sure, S^ndy took her own life, but don't fool yourself into thinking that these men you defend so vehemently have no blood on their hands. They knew she was drowning in despair and they stood at the edge and waited. To me, it's the equivalent of a lifeguard standing on the shore and not budging to save a drowning person.
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waysider
More like they pushed her back in after she thought she had made it to the safety of the shore.
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jen-o
did you just call those two "brothers in Christ"?!?
speak for yourself, oldies; i categorically deny that a false prophet is a "brother in Christ"!!
and to consider him as such is an outrage (imo)...
also, as doojable has pointed out: they knew and did NOTHING!!
THAT is what i consider true madness!!
(and they claimed to be ministers of the truth) gag!
oldies, they are definitely culpable (whether you want to give them a free pass or not)
there is such a thing as "reckless disregard for life" and it is ILLEGAL!
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oldiesman
When did they know of an impending suicide? If they knew a suicide was going to happen and did nothing, that's a whole different light on the matter. But no, to speculate on what they supposedly knew about the suicide is folly... we don't know what they knew about this act.
Yes they are brothers in Christ, and I do speak for myself and my experience with these guys, taking into account their own stated beliefs in God and Christ as well. You speak for yourself when you call VP a false prophet, and you are free to do so.
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waysider
Kinda looks like they weren't as "spiritual tuned in" as they would have had us believe.
Wierwille claimed suicide was caused by a devil spirit yet he failed to spot this supposed "spirit" in this young woman.
That's not a very encouraging endorsement for his so-called "spiritual perception".
In fact, it's not much of an endorsement for the whole concept of "devil possession".
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doojable
OM Here is what I said:
BTW - In this case - being a "Brother in Christ" is worst than just being some mook off the street.
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skyrider
waysider......good points!
It never ceases to amaze me......whenever wierwille's "spiritual perception" is held to the standard of his advanced class, he just can't spot dem debbil spurts, can he?
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Sunesis
Or you think he would have at least gotten revelation the girl was suicidal and not to screw that one.
Surely God would have warned him?
Gee, not very perceptive was he? Not walking with God there.
What a conman VP was, what a sham, MOG my butt.
Oldies, you have never once, ever, in all the years I've seen you on this board, ever felt anything for one of VP's women that he destroyed or ruined.
Not once.
Ever.
I'm beginning to believe you have no conscience.
Bird of a feather flock together - you can have your idol VP and your attendant idol worship of him that goes with it.
Someday, something's going to happen that will open your eyes, shake you to the core, and you will bow down and ask Christ's forgiveness for your hard heart - for by your words, you show that you do not know Him. You know and worship VP, not Christ.
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excathedra
--
oldies, in all these years, this is the first time i'm going to say it, i'm done with you
i'm sorry
and i'm more than "probably" sorry for dear sandra sullivan
i'm sick with this discussion
that's it
--
ps. ITS form not it is form, you azz
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rascal
You know, scriptures talk about Jesus as the shepherd. It talks about the shepherd that leaves the 99 sheep in search of the one missing member of the flock. The analogy of the loving shepherd that guides his flock to food and water, whom protects them from harm....Scripture doesn`t talk about him saying *stupid sheep, it`s all your fault that you are lost, hurt and injured* *It isn`t my fault that you got yourself in this mess* * I can`t be bothered to rescue and nurture you, go ahead and die...it`s ok because I have these other 99 to feed and cloth me*. No it was the shepherds job to search, to rescue, to rejoice when he finds the cherished missing member.....to nurture that precious one back to health.
Wierwille always talked about God in Christ in us....but in his case I don`t believe that love was in him when looking at how disposable people were. I really don`t see much Christ like at all in his behavior. It was all just words.
It`s like he claimed to be working for the master, he was entrusted with a flock, boasting himself a shepherd, and then led the flock away to feast on them and sit on his fanny and do nothing to nurture or protect.
Was he really a shepherd? Was he really working for the master to whom we belonged? Rather than ask these tough questions...Rather than hold the thief whom masqueraded as a shepherd and then led the masters flock off to feed off to feed of of....We want to say...
Stupid sheep, you shouldn`t have followed that man...
Stupid sheep you shouldn`t have fallen in that hole...
Stupid sheep, you shouldn`t have let that wolf get so close...
Isn`t that why the flock needs a shepherd? a protector? a Guide?? Do you suppose that is why God uses this analogy? Maybe because we really don`t always see all of the dangers and pitfalls that are continually about us? That we need someone that can guide us with compassion, and who`s job it is to be ever vigilant in order to warn us of the dangers?
I grieve over the pain that this girl suffered. I grieve that she didn`t have a legitimate minister to turn to for help. I grieve that she felt that the pain was so intense that she felt this was her only option :(
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rascal
Oldies, no doubt you are gleefully reporting people left and right for personal attacks. I wonder if that isn`t really why you are so deliberately provoking people.
I earnestly wish that you could step back from the little game long enough to actually consider the impact of your *opinion*.
Can you grieve with us for a sister that we lost? Can you grieve for that 100th member of our flock that was devoured by the ravening wolves...this precious and real person whom is forever lost to us?
Can you see how hurtful the attitude of *stupiddamnedsheep, it`s all her own fault*?
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DogLover
Hate to be a stickler ... but if you're criticizing, you SHOULD know that the correct form if "its" was not used in your reply.... you used the "it is" form, not the "its" (possessive) form ... so yes, people WILL judge the content of your message by its form.
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Linda Z
I rarely waste my time arguing with you, Oldies, but I will say one thing about this: If someone had pushed this poor girl off a bridge, you'd say it was her fault because she shouldn't have been standing on a bridge.
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oldiesman
To my fellow posters,
Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more insults. Please note:
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Ham
I dunno. There's always a solution.. maybe a massive group "ignore" would work..
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bowtwi
You do realize that as you're pointing fingers at all of us, you've got 3 pointing right back at yourself, right?
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Ham
It just seems.. if one views another's opinion as toxic and despicable, and conditions reach an impasse with no hope of any kind of reasonable reconciliation, what other option is there?
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