Even though it seems like a phone call, it did take courage to stand up for yourself rather than pretending to agree with TWI logic.
Hopefully your friend sees your example, and when the time comes for him to make the decision, he can choose wisely about his future in TWI as well.
Anyway, congratulations again. It took me months after leaving before I told my family that were in. The people from my old fellowship don't even know why I left, and I had only talked to one after I left because he cold called me as well (around Christmas-time of 2001, when I left around August 2001.)
I had a similar experience with an innie friend of whom I had not told about my departure from twi. She instant messaged me, and I told her that she should know that I wasn't "in" anymore. She asked if she could call me. I said yes.
I wasn't surprised by her. She questioned me, and I told her I just saw too much crap and that I didn't believe the crap about the true household or Eve having a lesbian experience. Her response to me was "Well, did you go back and research it for yourself?" I told her it was too ridiculous to even consider it truth and it didn't take a very smart person to figure that out. I also told her to consider the teacher and his life-style. Honestly, we all should have laughed our @$$es off when we heard that stupid teaching. I'm sure she thought I was just using that for an excuse, but I didn't and don't care. She means well, and she is convinced she is in the best ministry in the world. Good for her if she believes that. I'm not trying to convince her otherwise. But if she ever questions things, I'm pretty sure I'll be the first she calls. Then I can tell her LOTS!!! I'll be here for her. :D-->
I hope ChattyKathy doesn't mind me sharing this...
We've always sent Christmas cards to each other for years since they moved away from Tampa. Two Christmases ago, for some reason, I put my email addy in the card I sent to her and her husband - it wasn't something I normally did.
I got an email from her and the way she wrote to me, I could tell that she thought we were still in. She had shared about some of her disillusionment with TWI and the whole mortgage nonsense... then said something like: "I hope this doesn't get you stressed or out of fellowship - it wasn't my intention."
I was FLOORED!
I wrote back to her and told her we'd gotten out a little over a year ago (at that time) and that she was "preaching to the choir". I went on to tell her exactly how I felt about various policies of TWI. I sent her the link to the main page of GS and John's "Letters to Rosalie".
I'm not crediting myself for getting her and her hubby out - they would have gone with or without me.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you remain a friend to people who are still in, someday they may come to you and ask questions about TWI that they're afraid to ask people who are in with them. Like Wayfer Not said - then you can tell them LOTS!
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
Well, well lindyhopper, I know exactly how your innie friend feels. During my 20 year race for the prize, I would make my "come back home" calls and missives and visits to those who had left and just "don't know what they are missing" crusades.
I look back now after BEING out for about 8 years and really really am laughing at myself.
These hard hearted, caloused, hearts seared by a hot iron by the AdVeRsArY , must get to them, must make them see how they have been detoured by the seduction of the Charmer.
Sometimes I would just go and carry on that personal touch of reproof, correction, and back to right DOCtrine, and sometimes those "unfaithful" names would be announced in TWIG and, oh, woe is they, please pray for them (ever notice how there is a TWI in twig? ;)-->) .
The one thing i never did was: REALLY LISTEN TO WHY THESE GOOD PEOPLE LEFT TWI!!!... just knew they NeEdEd to be with the true Household....
I look back and can only imagine what these "unfaithful" must have thought my ignorance their FREEDOM!!!!!!! (please read the above I quoted from lindyhopper).
Ahem.... Now I know why they left...
I am one of them!!!!!!!
Rok On lindyhopper
FREEDOM!!!!!!!
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on February 06, 2003 at 17:23.]
It was that email addy in your card that gave me access to really claim thinking outside of the "twi box". You deserve "more" than the credit, I shall forever be grateful for your heart to listen to our Father and send me a life jacket in the form of an email addy.
And I think I may have mentioned this to gs before but the first time I logged on and read yall here I shut the blinds in the house so no one could possibly look in to my screen, and I waited until hubby was away. Then after I read some I backed out of the site and prayed to God that no one find out I was here. :D--> :D--> :D-->
Yes Hope is "right on", you can never know the impact an action of yours can have to help set the captives free. Just never know.
Hope, my dearest friend....I so love you and John.
Sometimes when I'm visiting with family or talking to the few innies that I know, I think I can sence somewhere in them they want to leave and do what I did. Of course, they would never admit that.
Actually it kind of hurts to hear them talk the talk. It is so evident to me now that they are so repressed and their way of thinking is controled.
"Control your thinking" ever hear that. I did a lot as a kid.
Now I am realizing what it is like to really think and not just think I think.
Didn't LCM used to say that the other way around?
As an artist, the ideas are really flowing now. I don't have enough time to make all my ideas happen right now while their fresh. I am regaining the confidence in myself and my abilities and that is exciting. The sky is the limit. It feels good to be an artist again and not just a class card producer.
I do hope I will make some sort of dent in the minds of my family and friends that are still stuck in.
quote: I do hope I will make some sort of dent in the minds of my family and friends that are still stuck in.
You will, Lindy, you will.
I think there are a lot of people "in" who desparately want out. They don't think they have a good enough reason to leave. They are afraid of alienating family members. They are afraid that TWI was right and that they'll be a GSpot by Midnight or that they'll lose all the rewards they worked so hard to get.
Basically, it's fear. But they will grow more and more uncomfortable as they see you living the life they were promised they would life if they signed up for PFAL. They will grow more confident in talking to you and running their thoughts by you as they see you are less judgemental and more willing and able to look at things from various perspectives. Then, God willing, they will grow a pair and take the same bold steps you've taken.
I'm stuck in and praying that's what happens, anyway. I can tell you that a lot of people run things by me these days. There is a lot of internal dissension and rumbling amongst the leaves. They are waking up and they aren't as stupid as TWI seems to think they are.
I was e-mailed recently by a dear old friend who had seen my research paper "What is Debt" on the web. (I guess twi is starting to teach on debt again). She mentioned to me that many people are questioning things but are encouraged to not discuss it with each other but instead to write to HQ with any concerns that they have.
(Nice trick twi)
I e-mailed back and told her that we had left 11/2001. I have heard nothing back. So, Lindy be glad your friend even had the guts to call you. SADLY many innies still hold to the "don't talk to anyone who has left" rule.
Lindy, You keep doing it from the outside and there are people like me doing it from the inside. We'll get the good ones out and free one day. I just know it.
Napkinlady, Let's see...you left in 11/2001? That's over a year ago? How long has it been since the ousting of lcm? That's when they said they were going to take ONE YEAR to re-research and re-evaluate their stand against debt and buying a home and buying a car. We've been TOLD that they have a bunch of research (secular and biblical) but we haven't heard one peep about this supposed research.
The change to allow people to buy a home is so obviously a pathetic attempt to hold onto people (and probably suggested by their lawyers) that even the most devoted innies know that. They aren't that stupid. You can hear the most sheepish ones say things about how they SAY they didn't have a policy against it, but they DID. And then they start thinking about other things that don't add up. They realize other LIES that they've been told.
I know of at least one area where they are doing an extensive, three part teaching series on "The Biblical Definition of Debt" in Fellowship Coordinator's meetings. Things that may you go, huuummmmm.... I think it's telling that they are doing it at the FC level. It can't be long before the new and revised doctrine is released to Joe Wayfers everywhere. As Gomer Pile would say, "Revise, Revise, Revise!"----uh, I mean...well, you know...
You know I have to ask, have you heard what this biblical definition of debt is? I wonder because as you know that was the definition we asked for over and over and the question we asked for before leaving. It would be interesting to see if their definition comes even close to the one we came up with and presented to them in Nov of 2001.
I don't think it was all that but I thank you for your kind words. You are a kind and generous person. And Blanche Dubois and I have always relied on the kindness of strangers!
I am sorry to report that I have not, as of yet been given the skinny on the debt teachings. My source has only heard part one of the three part series of teachings on this subject and prefers to receive it in total before we discuss it. Believe me, I'm VERY curious about what the "present truth" is on this subject myself. When I find out, I'll be sure to pass it along. Stay tuned...
Oh, and by the Way, Thomas Crown: Welcome! Welcome to Greasepot! Reading posts from people who are still "in" is very enlightening. Please keep on shining for us.
Too many people were hurt by the debt garbage LCM made mandatory. People sold their homes! Some people got divorced over it.
People who contributed to TWI for YEARS were told not to come back until they were out of debt.
People who had taken every class, sat through every program and given YEARS of their time to TWI were told they couldn't take certain classes until they were out of debt.
Apologies? Gosh - I'm not sure that's enough in some cases. How about restitution for money lost when someone sold their house to get out of debt? How about reimbursement for vacations not taken, for cancelled piano lessons and disconnected cable TV - because debt was SIN and SIN couldn't exist in the fellowships?
Oh I could go on... so much damage to people's lives in the name of God...
Hope R. color>size>face>
I get by with a little help from my friends... size>
How about the people we were told loved their houses more than GOD because they wouldn't sell their homes?
These people have solid retirement accounts, mostly paid for homes and are sitting pretty regarding the future while they look at those vacation photos, pack te kids for college and listen to the fruits of those piano lessons. What do the WC have? Worse yet - what do we have for listening to them?
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excathedra
i'm so happy for you, lindy
i hope your family and friends turn out to be as smart as you
i bet they will
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Mister P-Mosh
Congratulations.
Even though it seems like a phone call, it did take courage to stand up for yourself rather than pretending to agree with TWI logic.
Hopefully your friend sees your example, and when the time comes for him to make the decision, he can choose wisely about his future in TWI as well.
Anyway, congratulations again. It took me months after leaving before I told my family that were in. The people from my old fellowship don't even know why I left, and I had only talked to one after I left because he cold called me as well (around Christmas-time of 2001, when I left around August 2001.)
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krys
I'm glad you can feel so free!
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Nottawayfer
I had a similar experience with an innie friend of whom I had not told about my departure from twi. She instant messaged me, and I told her that she should know that I wasn't "in" anymore. She asked if she could call me. I said yes.
I wasn't surprised by her. She questioned me, and I told her I just saw too much crap and that I didn't believe the crap about the true household or Eve having a lesbian experience. Her response to me was "Well, did you go back and research it for yourself?" I told her it was too ridiculous to even consider it truth and it didn't take a very smart person to figure that out. I also told her to consider the teacher and his life-style. Honestly, we all should have laughed our @$$es off when we heard that stupid teaching. I'm sure she thought I was just using that for an excuse, but I didn't and don't care. She means well, and she is convinced she is in the best ministry in the world. Good for her if she believes that. I'm not trying to convince her otherwise. But if she ever questions things, I'm pretty sure I'll be the first she calls. Then I can tell her LOTS!!! I'll be here for her.
:D-->
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Hope R.
I hope ChattyKathy doesn't mind me sharing this...
We've always sent Christmas cards to each other for years since they moved away from Tampa. Two Christmases ago, for some reason, I put my email addy in the card I sent to her and her husband - it wasn't something I normally did.
I got an email from her and the way she wrote to me, I could tell that she thought we were still in. She had shared about some of her disillusionment with TWI and the whole mortgage nonsense... then said something like: "I hope this doesn't get you stressed or out of fellowship - it wasn't my intention."
I was FLOORED!
I wrote back to her and told her we'd gotten out a little over a year ago (at that time) and that she was "preaching to the choir". I went on to tell her exactly how I felt about various policies of TWI. I sent her the link to the main page of GS and John's "Letters to Rosalie".
I'm not crediting myself for getting her and her hubby out - they would have gone with or without me.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you remain a friend to people who are still in, someday they may come to you and ask questions about TWI that they're afraid to ask people who are in with them. Like Wayfer Not said - then you can tell them LOTS!
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
My brother, if you are reading this, I do respect your opinion and your decisions.
But,"I" want the best for you.
I want you to have real answers.
I want you to really think about things outside of the Vay doctrine cliches.
I love you and hope everything is well for you and your family.
lindyhopper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...
Well, well lindyhopper, I know exactly how your innie friend feels. During my 20 year race for the prize, I would make my "come back home" calls and missives and visits to those who had left and just "don't know what they are missing" crusades.
I look back now after BEING out for about 8 years and really really am laughing at myself.
These hard hearted, caloused, hearts seared by a hot iron by the AdVeRsArY , must get to them, must make them see how they have been detoured by the seduction of the Charmer.
Sometimes I would just go and carry on that personal touch of reproof, correction, and back to right DOCtrine, and sometimes those "unfaithful" names would be announced in TWIG and, oh, woe is they, please pray for them (ever notice how there is a TWI in twig?
;)-->) .
The one thing i never did was: REALLY LISTEN TO WHY THESE GOOD PEOPLE LEFT TWI!!!... just knew they NeEdEd to be with the true Household....
I look back and can only imagine what these "unfaithful" must have thought my ignorance their FREEDOM!!!!!!! (please read the above I quoted from lindyhopper).
Ahem.... Now I know why they left...
I am one of them!!!!!!!
Rok On lindyhopper
FREEDOM!!!!!!!
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on February 06, 2003 at 17:23.]
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ChattyKathy
Hope,
It was that email addy in your card that gave me access to really claim thinking outside of the "twi box". You deserve "more" than the credit, I shall forever be grateful for your heart to listen to our Father and send me a life jacket in the form of an email addy.
And I think I may have mentioned this to gs before but the first time I logged on and read yall here I shut the blinds in the house so no one could possibly look in to my screen, and I waited until hubby was away. Then after I read some I backed out of the site and prayed to God that no one find out I was here.
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
Yes Hope is "right on", you can never know the impact an action of yours can have to help set the captives free. Just never know.
Hope, my dearest friend....I so love you and John.
Kathy
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lindyhopper
Thanks all.
Sometimes when I'm visiting with family or talking to the few innies that I know, I think I can sence somewhere in them they want to leave and do what I did. Of course, they would never admit that.
Actually it kind of hurts to hear them talk the talk. It is so evident to me now that they are so repressed and their way of thinking is controled.
"Control your thinking" ever hear that. I did a lot as a kid.
Now I am realizing what it is like to really think and not just think I think.
Didn't LCM used to say that the other way around?
As an artist, the ideas are really flowing now. I don't have enough time to make all my ideas happen right now while their fresh. I am regaining the confidence in myself and my abilities and that is exciting. The sky is the limit. It feels good to be an artist again and not just a class card producer.
I do hope I will make some sort of dent in the minds of my family and friends that are still stuck in.
Thanks again you guys and gals.
You rock too!
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fortunateone
we are not the ones who are deceived
FORTUNATEONE to be out of TWI
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WaywardWayfer
You will, Lindy, you will.
I think there are a lot of people "in" who desparately want out. They don't think they have a good enough reason to leave. They are afraid of alienating family members. They are afraid that TWI was right and that they'll be a GSpot by Midnight or that they'll lose all the rewards they worked so hard to get.
Basically, it's fear. But they will grow more and more uncomfortable as they see you living the life they were promised they would life if they signed up for PFAL. They will grow more confident in talking to you and running their thoughts by you as they see you are less judgemental and more willing and able to look at things from various perspectives. Then, God willing, they will grow a pair and take the same bold steps you've taken.
I'm stuck in and praying that's what happens, anyway. I can tell you that a lot of people run things by me these days. There is a lot of internal dissension and rumbling amongst the leaves. They are waking up and they aren't as stupid as TWI seems to think they are.
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Dot Matrix
Wow, you handled that call wonderfully!
Proud of you!
Dot Matrix
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napkinlady
I was e-mailed recently by a dear old friend who had seen my research paper "What is Debt" on the web. (I guess twi is starting to teach on debt again). She mentioned to me that many people are questioning things but are encouraged to not discuss it with each other but instead to write to HQ with any concerns that they have.
(Nice trick twi)
I e-mailed back and told her that we had left 11/2001. I have heard nothing back. So, Lindy be glad your friend even had the guts to call you. SADLY many innies still hold to the "don't talk to anyone who has left" rule.
Napkinlady
Fold TWI, Fold!
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insurgent
Lindy, You keep doing it from the outside and there are people like me doing it from the inside. We'll get the good ones out and free one day. I just know it.
Napkinlady, Let's see...you left in 11/2001? That's over a year ago? How long has it been since the ousting of lcm? That's when they said they were going to take ONE YEAR to re-research and re-evaluate their stand against debt and buying a home and buying a car. We've been TOLD that they have a bunch of research (secular and biblical) but we haven't heard one peep about this supposed research.
The change to allow people to buy a home is so obviously a pathetic attempt to hold onto people (and probably suggested by their lawyers) that even the most devoted innies know that. They aren't that stupid. You can hear the most sheepish ones say things about how they SAY they didn't have a policy against it, but they DID. And then they start thinking about other things that don't add up. They realize other LIES that they've been told.
It's just a matter of time.
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igotout
Chatty Cathy you are one of our many "fruits". Now it is our job to undershepherd you all the way through the advanced forums.
Ahhhh witnessing is fun again for the first time in years. And its great to finally see new people.
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Cherished Child
I know of at least one area where they are doing an extensive, three part teaching series on "The Biblical Definition of Debt" in Fellowship Coordinator's meetings. Things that may you go, huuummmmm.... I think it's telling that they are doing it at the FC level. It can't be long before the new and revised doctrine is released to Joe Wayfers everywhere. As Gomer Pile would say, "Revise, Revise, Revise!"----uh, I mean...well, you know...
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Mr. Thomas Crown
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 9:46.]
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 10:39.]
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napkinlady
Cherished,
You know I have to ask, have you heard what this biblical definition of debt is? I wonder because as you know that was the definition we asked for over and over and the question we asked for before leaving. It would be interesting to see if their definition comes even close to the one we came up with and presented to them in Nov of 2001.
It can be found at:
http://www.waychrist.com/featured_writers/debt.htm
I sure hope so because it would bring great freedom and deliverence to twi's enslaved people.
Please let me know what you hear. Thanks
Napkinlady
Fold TWI, Fold!
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grasshopper
just wanted to mention that wonderful people like you were as the ones that stormed the beach at Normandy and got killed or wounded.
you were right, yet the nazis butchered you.
that's the way I think of it anyway.
I for one thank you.
love,
grasshopper
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napkinlady
Grasshopper
I don't think it was all that but I thank you for your kind words. You are a kind and generous person. And Blanche Dubois and I have always relied on the kindness of strangers!
Napkinlady
Fold TWI, Fold!
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Cherished Child
Dear Thomas Crown and Napkin Lady,
I am sorry to report that I have not, as of yet been given the skinny on the debt teachings. My source has only heard part one of the three part series of teachings on this subject and prefers to receive it in total before we discuss it. Believe me, I'm VERY curious about what the "present truth" is on this subject myself. When I find out, I'll be sure to pass it along. Stay tuned...
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Cherished Child
Oh, and by the Way, Thomas Crown: Welcome! Welcome to Greasepot! Reading posts from people who are still "in" is very enlightening. Please keep on shining for us.
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Hope R.
I agree Mr. Crown (welcome - loved your movie) -
Too many people were hurt by the debt garbage LCM made mandatory. People sold their homes! Some people got divorced over it.
People who contributed to TWI for YEARS were told not to come back until they were out of debt.
People who had taken every class, sat through every program and given YEARS of their time to TWI were told they couldn't take certain classes until they were out of debt.
Apologies? Gosh - I'm not sure that's enough in some cases. How about restitution for money lost when someone sold their house to get out of debt? How about reimbursement for vacations not taken, for cancelled piano lessons and disconnected cable TV - because debt was SIN and SIN couldn't exist in the fellowships?
Oh I could go on... so much damage to people's lives in the name of God...
Hope R. color>size>face>
I get by with a little help from my friends... size>
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Mr. Thomas Crown
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 10:31.]
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 10:49.]
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simpleton
How about the people we were told loved their houses more than GOD because they wouldn't sell their homes?
These people have solid retirement accounts, mostly paid for homes and are sitting pretty regarding the future while they look at those vacation photos, pack te kids for college and listen to the fruits of those piano lessons. What do the WC have? Worse yet - what do we have for listening to them?
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